The news is on Slashdot also.. I really have no idea what's happenning. But, let's hope that we get cleartype like fonts for LCD displays in SuSE pretty soon.. Osho On 11/2/06, Sunny wrote:

On 11/2/06, Robert Lewis wrote:

...

Nick Zentena wrote:

...

News at 5pm EST and it isn't even April 1st.

Nick

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/story.aspx?siteid=mktw&guid=%7BEEF34C41-480F-4ABC-9D0F-E5BC53E5C552%7D

And on WSJ: http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB116249026689311557-helTbrheLKgbaJ5iO5...

-- -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap.

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

into electronic streams flowing thru the cosmos On Thursday 02 November 2006 4:19 pm, Brad Bourn wrote:

I bet hell still isn't frozen, so what is the catch?

Dreamcast/XBox

Suse/M$useBox

"Keep your friends close, your enemies closer" keeps going through my head.....

WTF?

B-)

On Thursday 02 November 2006 2:05 pm, Robert Lewis wrote:

...

Nick Zentena wrote:

...

News at 5pm EST and it isn't even April 1st.

Nick

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/story.aspx?siteid=mktw&guid=%7BEE F34C41-480F-4ABC-9D0F-E5BC53E5C552%7D

<snip> Embrace , extend, choke the life out of it.. ???? -- j This current flows between us that will not be denied You draw me in towards you like the moon pulls at the tide May no shadow ever fall that will make me have to call you someone I used to love

On Thursday 02 November 2006 17:01, M Harris wrote:

     This is like the great white shark helping out by giving swimming lessons to the penguins. uh, well,

Penguins already know how to swim, and uh, penguins are shark food. -- Kind regards, M Harris <><

On 11/2/06, Pete Connolly wrote:

In the mind of the Debian types, it's probably already a beheading crime.

And in Mozilla's, IBM(PS2), WordPerfect, .... (a long list) :) -- -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap.

On Thu, 2006-11-02 at 17:26 -0600, M Harris wrote:

On Thursday 02 November 2006 17:01, M Harris wrote:

...

This is like the great white shark helping out by giving swimming lessons to the penguins.

uh, well,

Penguins already know how to swim, and uh, penguins are shark food.

Penguins also know how to fork. Suse forked off Slacker-Ware. Perhaps its that time again? CWSIV

The two companies have also agreed to develop technologies to make it easier for users to run both Suse Linux and Microsoft's Windows on their computers. ... uh, huh. Let's see... isn't that just like M$... invent another crappy technology to allow me to harm myself again should I be stupid enough to install the technology... maybe they'll call it, VISTINX... uh, VISTux, uh... no.. uh... V'Linux... no... uh VIX rats.... I guess they aren't aware of the various VM technologies available already... or maybe they just don't know how easy it is to run Linux WITHOUT M$ installed at all... or maybe they are deluded into (STILL) believing that

On Thursday 02 November 2006 15:26, Kai Ponte wrote: people LIKE windoze... DONT THEY GET IT!!! .... the reason we run Linux is because we HATE windoze.... yeah, right, what I wan to pay for in the future is an easier way to run M$ windoze *with* my Linux... <sigh> I know... they're pulling my leg to push my buttons... :-)))) its worth the laugh -- Kind regards, M Harris <><

On Thursday 02 November 2006 17:32, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

believing that people LIKE windoze... DONT THEY GET IT!!! .... the reason we run Linux is because we HATE windoze....

That may be the reason why you run linux, but it's hardly a reason for major corporations, and this announcement is aimed squarely at major corporations

A CTO would be fired on the spot if he played by emotions Who are you trying to kid?

Corporations hate windoze. Ask any of the corporations which have been skewered by M$, or ask any of the corporations (or non emotional individuals) involved in M$ anti-trust class action lawsuits (like the one in Minnesota for example) or ask any of the millions of corporate managers across America who are hamstrung by the M$ "corporate parasite" that crashes and burns (literally) millions of hours of person-productive time. Oh, they hate windoze assuredly. But they say it differently... "We find it difficult to concur with the latest financial strategy of M$ to leverage their aggressive position in the IT market while providing marginal value-add for our user base". --- translation... we hate windoze. Maybe a few CTOs should be fired... start with the guy who is attempting to link Novell with M$.... -- Kind regards, M Harris <><

On Thursday 02 November 2006 19:02, Ken Jennings wrote:

On Thursday 02 November 2006 21:10, M Harris wrote:

...

On Thursday 02 November 2006 17:32, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

...

believing that people LIKE windoze... DONT THEY GET IT!!! .... the reason we run Linux is because we HATE windoze....

That may be the reason why you run linux, but it's hardly a reason for major corporations, and this announcement is aimed squarely at major corporations

A CTO would be fired on the spot if he played by emotions

Who are you trying to kid?

Corporations hate windoze. Ask any of the corporations which have <snip>

I second that. The PC maintenance people at work HATE Windows. (They only <snip>

This is interesting to read. I work for one organization now with roughly 96,000 employees and untold numbers of servers/workstations. Previously I worked for a company with only 18,000 employees. At my previous employer, I was one of only a few "linux" devotees. Though we had 12 SLE servers, they were all vendor-installed and supported. I had to dig and fight to get one SUSE server installed and in production. (In the end, it was decided it would be easier to run Tomcat/Java/Apache on a Win2K3 workstation, so my server was eventually abandoned in spite of the headaches of running Windows, due to the overwhelming need to be "windows based" at all costs.) At my current place, the environment is much the same. I'm currently leading a multi-year project to replace a combo mainframe / windows vendor-based system with an in-house system. The main requirement - all windows servers. No Linux needed. Even Java isn't allowed. Now, I'm quietly running a workstation/server with SUSE 10.1 and a LAMP stack. It currently hosts a web portal for about 10 people. However, I'm being very quiet about the whole thing, because I know that there, Windows is king. The whole corporate environment exudes Windows dominance. It is very weird. Meanwhile, I happily run my laptops with SUSE 10.1 and no one asks why. :) I only get a few questions about the Matrix or GPL Chess screen savers. kai ponte www.perfectreign.com

M Harris writes:

On Thursday 02 November 2006 17:32, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

...

believing that people LIKE windoze... DONT THEY GET IT!!! .... the reason we run Linux is because we HATE windoze....

That may be the reason why you run linux, but it's hardly a reason for major corporations, and this announcement is aimed squarely at major corporations

A CTO would be fired on the spot if he played by emotions Who are you trying to kid?

Corporations hate windoze. Ask any of the corporations which have been skewered by M$, or ask any of the corporations (or non emotional individuals) involved in M$ anti-trust class action lawsuits (like the one in Minnesota for example) or ask any of the millions of corporate managers across America who are hamstrung by the M$ "corporate parasite" that crashes and burns (literally) millions of hours of person-productive time. Oh, they hate windoze assuredly. But they say it differently...

But still cooperations have to interact with MS software - and now they can more easily have Linux interact with MS, so it should be a win for them, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

On Thursday 02 November 2006 14:15, M Harris wrote:

   I guess they aren't aware of the various VM technologies available already... or maybe they just don't know how easy it is to run Linux WITHOUT M$ installed at all... or maybe they are deluded into (STILL) believing that people LIKE windoze... DONT THEY GET IT!!! ..

Regardless what YOU like, its a fact of life that people have/want to run windows and linux in the same corporate environment. This isn't about you Joe User sitting at your linux box. Microsoft is offering to assist Novel in getting virtualization working. Microsoft has a product for this as does Novel, and both of them are getting their asses kicked by Vmware. But its a hollow agreement. Microsoft Vista license ALREADY FORBIDS VISTA USE IN A VIRTUAL MACHINE. Novel got sold a pig in a poke. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Thursday 02 November 2006 23:49, M Harris wrote:

On Thursday 02 November 2006 20:24, John Andersen wrote:

...

But its a hollow agreement.  Microsoft Vista license ALREADY FORBIDS VISTA USE IN A VIRTUAL MACHINE.

Novel got sold a pig in a poke.  

yup... only its not about whether the two run together... in fact, it isn't about whether they run at all... if you understand the real issue you will know that its all about software patents... [...] : [...] As an aside, if you notice closely from the previous text.... Novell will be *paying* M$ because of patent law... and that is the reason I will *NOT* be purchasing any more NOVELL products. IF ANYONE FROM NOVELL IS LISTENING my contingent has paid M$ all the money we ever intend to pay to them... through our own pocket books, or through Novell's pocket books. Common guys, you're killing us here. In the ancient and wise words of my former employer... THINK.

Some good points. I guess it may be time to get of my lazy butt and learn how to burn ISO images myself.

On 11/2/06, M Harris wrote:

That said, under the patent cooperation agreement, both companies are paying each other upfront in exchange for a release of patent liability. Additionally, Novell also will make running royalty payments to Microsoft based on a percentage of revenue from open-source products.

Hmmm, the way I read it: MS: We had incorporated in Vista some patented technologies from Novell. It is too late to replace them, so pretending to help OOS is a better approach. -- -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap.

One think that still is not clear for me from this press conference is where the collaboration will be i.e does this mean that we will be able to run windows in Xen virtual machine and that a suse linux virtual will be run on a ms vm software??

On Friday 03 November 2006 03:35, Nick Zentena wrote:

On Thursday 02 November 2006 21:24, John Andersen wrote:

...

But its a hollow agreement. Microsoft Vista license ALREADY FORBIDS VISTA USE IN A VIRTUAL MACHINE.

Didn't they also announce a license change yesterday? How can you have a license and change it for a product that hasn't even shipped yet?

Nick

The license change was not really announced, just blogged about. That change removes the restriction on moving the os to new hardware more than once. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

Anders Johansson a écrit :

On Friday 03 November 2006 03:24, John Andersen wrote:

...

But its a hollow agreement. Microsoft Vista license ALREADY FORBIDS VISTA USE IN A VIRTUAL MACHINE.

Novel got sold a pig in a poke.

The agreement got signed yesterday.

Vista isn't even shipping yet

Exactly how do you know what will happen?

MS announces today that Vista Business and Ultimate editions will run in virtual machines, but not the Premium and Home editions. If you can read French : http://www.generation-nt.com/actualites/20469/microsoft-vista-installation-m... Michel.

On Saturday 04 November 2006 04:01, Mike McMullin wrote:

...

But its a hollow agreement.  Microsoft Vista license ALREADY FORBIDS VISTA USE IN A VIRTUAL MACHINE.

  I guess the real question is whether VISTA will run in a virtual machine or not, as opposed to the MS EULA restriction.

It will. In fact its allowed if you buy the highest priced versions. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

My take on this is that M$ offers 'support', but then can't cut it and then offers the supportee a MS solution which is guaranteed to work the way the client wants. M$ will no doubt charge for the support and if the cost of the 'guarenteed to work' solution comes up they will just say that it is a once off cost and you won't need to pay for support again ie because it is a M$ product you will get 5 free support calls for the life of the software. This is my bet and I shivered with fear when I read the quote about keeping your enemies closer. Easiest way to get rid of the compettion is to buy them instead of all that pesky patent stuff. The only bonus for Novell is perhaps the M$ advertising engine. Keep the penguin words rolling out and your beaks high. H -- #!/bin/bash echo "=================================================================" echo "Using unpatched SuSE 9.2 Professional with KDE and Mozilla 1.7.2" echo "Linux user # 229959 at http://counter.li.org" uptime echo "================================================================="

On Sunday 05 November 2006 01:23, Anders Johansson wrote:

No, the support will come from Novell. Microsoft will only sell licenses (and obviously only to customers who insist on running linux, don't expect them to push this hard)

Microsoft will hand out scraps of paper. They will not SELL anything. Go back ad read the announcement again. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Sunday 05 November 2006 01:41, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Sunday 05 November 2006 11:30, John Andersen wrote:

...

On Sunday 05 November 2006 01:23, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

No, the support will come from Novell. Microsoft will only sell licenses (and obviously only to customers who insist on running linux, don't expect them to push this hard)

Microsoft will hand out scraps of paper. They will not SELL anything. Go back ad read the announcement again.

Those 'scraps of paper' are server support licenses, bought and paid for.

Read the FAQ: http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/faq.html Quote: In addition, Microsoft will distribute as part of a resale arrangement approximately 70,000 coupons for SUSE Linux Enterprise Server maintenance and support per year so that customers can benefit from the use of the new software solutions developed through the collaborative research effort, as well as a version of Linux that is covered with respect to Microsoft's IP rights. --endqoute The coupons are only "for" support (not even the purchase price, and not even a commitment to cover the whole cost of support) and ONLY when there are "software solutions developed through the collaborative research effort" (but clearly ONLY if said solutions REQUIRE Linux - Which seems unlikely, and certainly these solutions wont exist for some time (likely years away). "as well as a version of Linux that is covered with respect to Microsoft's IP rights" which is to say NO VERSION OF LINUX, because Microsoft has no IP rights to any part of linux. Anders, I have "coupons" for this Bridge in New York City..... -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

into electronic streams flowing thru the cosmos On Sunday 05 November 2006 6:16 am, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Sunday 05 November 2006 12:04, John Andersen wrote:

...

The coupons are only "for" support (not even the purchase price, and not even a commitment to cover the whole cost of support)

Where do you read this?

They are support contracts, bought and paid for. End of story

I suspect this is going to be basically mixed server setups that MS is pushing to try and take over? In other words commercial setups.. uhm, wasn't there some verbage about what a commercial setup is a while ago?? MS is trying to figure out how to keep the server biz they have.. cause they are losing that market. -- j This current flows between us that will not be denied You draw me in towards you like the moon pulls at the tide May no shadow ever fall that will make me have to call you someone I used to love

On Sunday 05 November 2006 21:18, John Andersen wrote:

On Sunday 05 November 2006 02:16, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Sunday 05 November 2006 12:04, John Andersen wrote:

...

The coupons are only "for" support (not even the purchase price, and not even a commitment to cover the whole cost of support)

Where do you read this?

They are support contracts, bought and paid for. End of story

I repeat: Read the FAQ Directly from Novels web site: http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/faq.html

I did. Read my other, longer, response

On Sunday 05 November 2006 02:34, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

and ONLY when there are "software solutions developed through the collaborative research effort" (but clearly ONLY if said solutions REQUIRE Linux - Which seems unlikely, and certainly these solutions wont exist for some time (likely years away).

You seem to be reading words that aren't there. There is no "only" in that quote you give, and the paranthesis is taken only from your imagination

I CAN parse the english language Anders. It IS my native tongue. It clearly says: " so customers can benefit from the use of the new software solutions developed through the collaborative research effort,". There are no such solutions. Further, the microsoft Faq on their web site is even MORE specific: http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/faq.mspx " Microsoft will make these coupons available to joint customers who are interested in deploying virtualized Windows on SUSE Linux Enterprise Server, or virtualized SUSE Linux Enterprise Server on Windows." So clearly the focus of this is on the virtualiztion products to be developed jointly, since neither company has any viable products that do this currently. If your friendly local Microsoft sales man (do such people exist?) walks in and you tell him you are moving your servers to Linux you will never see this coupon. Both FAQs state that the coupons are only for users of products that are created under the collaborative research effort. That is the point of my post. Such products do not exist today. Which is fine. Why would anyone expect any different? Microsoft isn't going to pay your way to SuSE. (Nor is it clear these coupons will be free...) My take on this is Novell has a couple things Microsoft wants: 1) Three or five different flavors and sizes of authentication products. (A recent edition (last summer some time) of Novell magazine had articles on all of these products, - which was written in mind numbing prose making it virtually impossible to distinguish one of these solutions from the other.) Clearly Novell is the leader in this area, although not entirely linux focused. 2) Infrastructure Management (ZenWorks) These are things that Novell can license independent of the GPL, which Microsoft needs. They are just applications, which Novell owns. (Anybody who has managed a big Microsoft Network knows that the whole Domain Controller / Active Directory lashup is a creaking behemoth, ready to collapse of its own weight. MS probably realizes this.) OpenOffice probably needs no help from Microsoft. There is no IP issues involved in converting your own documents to OpenOffice formats. Further Microsoft is eminently capable of providing what they need for their own products to be compatible with odf. They need no help from Novell for this. Microsoft has already taken a couple runs at Samba, and were not successful. There are mysteries that remain in the smb/cifs protocol that Microsoft could help with. Especially if they plan to change it in the future to lock out the Samba project. This is about the only thing I see Microsoft bringing to the table (other than a bag full of FUD-Scared customers). -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Sunday 05 November 2006 12:08, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Sunday 05 November 2006 21:59, John Andersen wrote:

...

On Sunday 05 November 2006 02:34, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

...

and ONLY when there are "software solutions developed through the collaborative research effort" (but clearly ONLY if said solutions REQUIRE Linux - Which seems unlikely, and certainly these solutions wont exist for some time (likely years away).

You seem to be reading words that aren't there. There is no "only" in that quote you give, and the paranthesis is taken only from your imagination

I CAN parse the english language Anders. It IS my native tongue.

Apparently not. Because you seem to have great difficulty with the phrase "HAS purchasED". It's known as past tense

What Microsoft does with them is their lookout, they HAVE BEEN (also past tense) paid for

Well since the coupons are worthless (at least today) It would be nice to know what they got for their 70,000 x $100 (guessing). What did Novell have to agree to to get this? I doubt there are 70,000 sites interested. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Sun, 2006-11-05 at 01:30 -0900, John Andersen wrote:

On Sunday 05 November 2006 01:23, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

No, the support will come from Novell. Microsoft will only sell licenses (and obviously only to customers who insist on running linux, don't expect them to push this hard)

Microsoft will hand out scraps of paper. They will not SELL anything. Go back ad read the announcement again.

Who gives a rat's whether BG sells or gives away the slips of paper he buys from Novell? He's got enough money as it is. He is facilitating and soothing anxiety for his customers who want or need the LINUX solution. It is a bridge for both companies. I've disliked MS since they crushed CPM, but this seems like a business fact of life solution. My concern is that somehow unknown to us he thinks this is a method to crush the GPL. Time will tell. -- Tom in NM SuSE 9.3/Evolution 7:29am up 2 days 7:05, 2 users, load average: 0.15, 0.14, 0.10 ====