To all of you who responded to my original inquiry on this subject - thanks. You have given me a lot to think about. With respect to Wordperfect 8.0, I actually have it on a cd that came with a book I bought before getting involved with Linux - Linux Clearly Explained by Brayn Pfaffenberger (teaches at University of Virginia). If I can figure out how to install it on SuSE without also installing the Redhat 6.0 that is included on the cd, I may be in business. My whole reason for starting this thread is, that I do a lot of desktop publishing and also use Corel Presentations on the road. I know how to do things with Corel Presentations that I can't do with my copies of StarOffice 5.2 or my copy of Applixware 5.0. I have over a million pieces of (Win 98) clip art - mostly commercial versions, but some I've created + I use a flatbed scanner a lot. I would love to chuck Win 98 altogether, but need the software that runs on it to do my work. I also have the temporary Linux handicapp of being a Gnome fan. So I realize it'll be a while before Gnome's office is up to my needs. Since I know zip about hacking software, I'm not able to contribute to the development of these programs. I was hoping that Crossover Office or something like Wine might be a stop gap measure until a truely Linux version of these apps is developed. I have an up to date version of Wine on my box, thanks to Ximian Red Carpet. However, I haven't a clue as to how you load 98 software on Wine. Right now, I can load Linux software on Linux and 98 software on 98. The problem is, how do you load 98 software on Linux with Wine. After installing Ximian on SuSE, I thought I had achieved the hardest task in Linux land. I'm sure Wine couldn't be any harder. (If I can get Evolution and Galeon to work on SuSE, then there is hope for Wine) I just need some docummentation. I tried to find a book on Wine at Boarder's, but all their books on wine are in reference to the drinking variety. Thanks to all of you who have helped with comments. If anyone knows of a book on Wine (Linux variety), I'd appreciate the ISBN #. Catch you later, Tom This message originated from a Unix computer using Open Source software: SuSE Linux 7.2 Pro, Galeon 1.0.3 Browser, AbiWord 0.99.3 Word Processor, Ximian Gnome 1.4.0.6 and Evolution 1.0.3 Groupware Suite. Have a lot of fun!!! (Unix is like a wigwam -- no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.)
Tom, a word of advice on wine: If you love to tinker and read docs, readme's, and howto's on the road to successfully using software, then download wine and learn to configure it. If you want to skip all that, download one of codeweaver's products. The Crossover Office version is getting decent reviews for running general software (particularly MS Office) and I use the Crossover plugin myself. It works great. To run software with wine it's best to do a fresh install of the software you want to run with it in a local (linux) partition. Don't try to share install directories with your windows partition if you are dual booting. This is do-able but tricky. Definitely not worth the saved hd space. After you install the software, start it with "wine /path_to_install_dir/program_name" If you are referring to WPO2K, it comes with it's own integrated wine and you just click the icons from your menu or desktop. No commands needed. John beesknees@earthlink.net wrote:
To all of you who responded to my original inquiry on this subject - thanks. <snip>
A quick note about CrossOver Office. I purchased the program and with all the tech support Codeweavers offered, it won't even install on my SuSE 7.1 SCSI box. Comment from Codeweavers was to upgrade to version 8 and try again. I note that MANY others are having similar problems, so while some may find it works for them, that is definitely not the case for all. dave John Scott wrote:
Tom, a word of advice on wine: If you love to tinker and read docs, readme's, and howto's on the road to successfully using software, then download wine and learn to configure it. If you want to skip all that, download one of codeweaver's products. The Crossover Office version is getting decent reviews for running general software (particularly MS Office) and I use the Crossover plugin myself. It works great.
To run software with wine it's best to do a fresh install of the software you want to run with it in a local (linux) partition. Don't try to share install directories with your windows partition if you are dual booting. This is do-able but tricky. Definitely not worth the saved hd space. After you install the software, start it with "wine /path_to_install_dir/program_name" If you are referring to WPO2K, it comes with it's own integrated wine and you just click the icons from your menu or desktop. No commands needed.
John
beesknees@earthlink.net wrote:
To all of you who responded to my original inquiry on this subject - thanks. <snip>
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On Monday 15 April 2002 06:41, David Johanson wrote: - A quick note about CrossOver Office. I purchased the program and with - all the tech support Codeweavers offered, it won't even install on my - SuSE 7.1 SCSI box. Comment from Codeweavers was to upgrade to version 8 - and try again. I note that MANY others are having similar problems, so - while some may find it works for them, that is definitely not the case - for all. What is wrong with this picture? Applixware appears not to be supported anymore. There have been complaints in Linux Format (UK) about a lack of support for Win4Lin problems. They only support I have ever tried to get from SuSE was outside their support parameters. Looks to me like a business model problem, at least seen from the customer's point of view. Support is used as the modus vivendi for why we should purchase software, but like insurance companies, it seems that Linux companies are in many cases trying to shore up their finances by providing support that is so limited, it doesn't hardly make sense anymore for the average user. It will be interesting to see what kind of support that Sun provides, when they start charging for StarOffice. As a Linux newbie, I have been following this thread with interest. almost everyone seems to be dashing around, looking for an Office package that works for them. What is it that most users are looking for? Integration between spreadsheet, graphics and word processor? Is it compatiblity with Word and WordPerfect? Is it the ability to integrate PowerPoint type presentations? Is it GUI vs. command line? I have noticed some criticism of existing packages due to a lack of proper footnote support. I ask, because I understood that Emacs was sort of a Swiss Army Knife for much of what is needed within word processing. While I haven't used it yet, I understand that there is minimal spreadsheet and graphics support now, but of course there is no Power Point type module. Are there command line word processors out there that work as well as Word or WordPerfect, or is that part of the problem? My two cents worth. Cheers, Brian
* Brian Durant; <durant@cbn.net.id> on 15 Apr, 2002 wrote:
I ask, because I understood that Emacs was sort of a Swiss Army Knife for much of what is needed within word processing. While I haven't used it yet, I understand that there is minimal spreadsheet and graphics support now, but of course there is no Power Point type module. Are there command line word processors out there that work as well as Word or WordPerfect, or is that part of the problem?
With Emacs you can do lot's of things the question is IMO how do you want to do it ? If you want to do it the "GUI" way click Next click Next I do not think emacs will suit your needs. On the other hand, using Emacs as your editor and using DocBook XML Slides DTD ( http://sourceforge.net/projects/docbook ) with DocBook XSL StyleSheets you will have your Powerpoint Slides and you can produce output in any format PDF, PS, HTML, XHTML, Text, MIF, RTF. So the real question is do you have the time to learn a new method as with docbook content and style are two different things. If you want to produce simple documents name it articles whitepapers then Docbook Simple DTD should be sufficent, if you are interested in making technical documents then DocBook XML/SGML will mostly satisfy your needs. If you want Websites then DocBook WebSite DTD will help you in producing the webpages. Now all this is possible with Emacs basicly using these DTD (Document Tyep Definitions) and you are producing valid XML files which you can apply the proper stylesheets and achieve quality results. HTH -- Togan Muftuoglu Unofficial SuSE FAQ Maintainer http://dinamizm.ath.cx
On Monday 15 April 2002 12:25, Togan Muftuoglu wrote: - On the other hand, using Emacs as your editor and using DocBook XML - Slides DTD ( http://sourceforge.net/projects/docbook ) with DocBook XSL - StyleSheets you will have your Powerpoint Slides and you can produce - output in any format PDF, PS, HTML, XHTML, Text, MIF, RTF. So the - real question is do you have the time to learn a new method as with - docbook content and style are two different things. Wow, sounds interesting, thanks Togan. My understanding of many of the postings on this thread however, was not just a concern about output, but being able to fit into an office or other work environment where documents are shared and/or transfered between computers, which means for the majority of us "cross platform" integration of some sort. In the end, it all comes down to being "Word compatible" or "MS Office" compatible. Command line or GUI seems to almost be incidental next to that. Of course, there are many, myself included, that have a background in another OS (in my case Mac) and feel naturally more comfortable using GUI. On the other hand, I would be more than willing to learn something like Emacs (despite what I understand to be a high learning curve) if I was sure that it would get me where I want to go. For many, newbies, choice is the problem, particularly if one is not sure how long product XY will be supported/developed. In the final instance, I think many would make their decision according to the following: 1) How does XY stack up against MS Word/Office (.doc version support, .rtf support, und alles)? 2) Will support/development for XY vaporize? 3) How does XY bring me closer to cross-platform integration in my workplace? 4) Is XY GUI or command line? How step is the learning curve? Two more cents back at you ;-) Brian
* Brian Durant; <durant@cbn.net.id> on 15 Apr, 2002 wrote:
than willing to learn something like Emacs (despite what I understand to be a high learning curve) if I was sure that it would get me where I want to go.
Well to be honest I do not think I am capable of using Emacs to its' 5 % of capabilities and abilities. However by using SuSE default install settings at the beginning I was able to produce desired progress with Emacs , and yes it does work under X environment which enables you to use your mouse clicks :-) . As my experienced level increased I started creating templates for the most common SGML/XML settings that I use which basicly increased by speed (same as using a custom MSWord template. So learning curve is quite fast beginning the second you stop thinking the style and focus on the content. Style comes later
For many, newbies, choice is the problem, particularly if one is not sure how long product XY will be supported/developed. In the final instance, I think many would make their decision according to the following:
1) How does XY stack up against MS Word/Office (.doc version support, .rtf support, und alles)?
".doc" is MS material on the other hand ".rtf" is not, it is common. So you will be able to produce "rtf" files which are usable AFAIK in all platforms ( I could be mistaken). On the other hand PDF (Portable Document File) is easy tom produce and it is platform independent.
2) Will support/development for XY vaporize?
I do not think it will vaporize since Docbook is used by many vendors publishing companies, for example O'reilly uses Docbook to produce those fine manuals ( they use it to export to Framemaker to finalize the product.) Also Docbook 5.0 will be purely XML which is the future for many industries.
3) How does XY bring me closer to cross-platform integration in my workplace?
Docbook can be used under Linux, Mac OSX Windows 9x/Me W2K platforms
4) Is XY GUI or command line? How step is the learning curve?
Both so you choose your own poison :-) Learning curve is a varying road I would assume with SuSE installation you have a basic working environment in a very short time. Understanding the content layout and use of the proper tags is what takes time, yet with Emacs it will tell you which tags you can use at the current level. Having a reference like "Docbook Definitive Guide" in your hand surely helps speeding up this phase. To give you an example Unofficial SuSE FAQ is done with Docbook SGML ( I am in the phase of converting it XML) and if you look at the appendix of it "How it is done" you can see that form tiny little files I can produce HTML , Text, PDF ( I can produce TeX, dvi, rtf mif and even Microsoft Help files ). If your native language is English, German, French, then life is easy compared to mine. In order to use Docbook with my native tongue, Turkish, I had to lots of things including getting the hyphenation into the output, localizing the words like "Table Of Contents" and etc, so my working environment for Turkish took more time then it would for you using English. My learning curve included lots of things which were not directly related to Docbook but yes I have learned a lot about lots of other stuff. So give it a try, what would you loose; a day in discovering how to do things with Docbook so loose it in your ample time, be ready for surprises and maybe you will start investing another day to actually using the tool chain. HTH -- Togan Muftuoglu Unofficial SuSE FAQ Maintainer http://dinamizm.ath.cx
At 14:18 04/15/2002 +0700, Brian Durant wrote:
On Monday 15 April 2002 12:25, Togan Muftuoglu wrote: - On the other hand, using Emacs as your editor and using DocBook XML - Slides DTD ( http://sourceforge.net/projects/docbook ) with DocBook XSL - StyleSheets you will have your Powerpoint Slides and you can produce - output in any format PDF, PS, HTML, XHTML, Text, MIF, RTF. So the - real question is do you have the time to learn a new method as with - docbook content and style are two different things.
Wow, sounds interesting, thanks Togan. My understanding of many of the postings on this thread however, was not just a concern about output, but being able to fit into an office or other work environment where documents are shared and/or transfered between computers, which means for the majority of us "cross platform" integration of some sort. In the end, it all comes down to being "Word compatible" or "MS Office" compatible. Command line or GUI seems to almost be incidental next to that. Of course, there are many, myself included, that have a background in another OS (in my case Mac) and feel naturally more comfortable using GUI. On the other hand, I would be more than willing to learn something like Emacs (despite what I understand to be a high learning curve) if I was sure that it would get me where I want to go.
For many, newbies, choice is the problem, particularly if one is not sure how long product XY will be supported/developed. In the final instance, I think many would make their decision according to the following:
1) How does XY stack up against MS Word/Office (.doc version support, .rtf support, und alles)? 2) Will support/development for XY vaporize? 3) How does XY bring me closer to cross-platform integration in my workplace? 4) Is XY GUI or command line? How step is the learning curve?
Two more cents back at you ;-)
Brian
Why would any sane person try to learn emacs when there are so many simple GUI word processors and even low level text editors that are easily accessable available? An IT person might need emacs if there is no GUI on his system, or even "edit" but for anybody else, just use a standard editor. Just my 2c plain. (I suppose that emacs might do some print-ready layout, if one were super sharp. But there are lots of other things that do that, like StarOffice, for instance.) --doug
On Tuesday 16 April 2002 07:59, Doug McGarrett wrote: - Why would any sane person try to learn emacs when there are so many simple - GUI word processors and even low level text editors that are easily accessable - available? An IT person might need emacs if there is no GUI on his system, - or even "edit" but for anybody else, just use a standard editor. - Just my 2c plain. (I suppose that emacs might do some print-ready - layout, if one were super sharp. But there are lots of other things - that do that, like StarOffice, for instance.) Don't get me started on StarOffice ;-) I know I may make myself quite unpopular on the list, but seen from the viewpoint of an international user, StarOffice sucks big time. It unfortunately is a typical US centric product. While it does support a relatively large number of languages in the "deluxe" or whatever version, it is not available outside of the US. Only the "standard" whatsit version is. As of yet, I don't believe (someone correct me if I am wrong - I haven't looked at SO since v. 5) that StarOffice supports bi-directional text processing (I don't need it, but there are a lot of people that do), nor do I believe that it supports the ability to write in Kanji, Cyrillic, Arabic; Hebrew (example) and English, Danish, French or whatever in the same document. There have also been people on the list complaining about footnote support problems as well. Nisus Writer was what I used on the Mac and I have yet to meet its match. Why would any sane person consider using emacs? If you read the thread, you would know that what I was ruminating about was that there were certain criteria that many people look for in office/text software and whether it is GUI or not isn't necessarily the first criteria: 1) How does XY stack up against MS Word/Office (.doc version support, .rtf support, und alles)? 2) Will support/development for XY vaporize? 3) How does XY bring me closer to cross-platform integration in my workplace? 4) Is XY GUI or command line? How steep is the learning curve? If you have some suggestions that fit the above criteria and also has decent international capabilities, please enlighten myself and the rest of the list. Many people seem to be interested in this topic. For a more general discussion on GUI versus command line, I would suggest the excellent book: "In the beginning... was the command line" by Neal Stephenson, author of "Cryptonomicon". Cheers, Brian
On Tuesday 16 April 2002 07:59, Doug McGarrett wrote: - Why would any sane person try to learn emacs when there are so many simple - GUI word processors and even low level text editors that are easily accessable - available?
I personally have yet to find anything that can handle all the different Japanese encodings (EUC, JIS, S-JIS, etc.) as flawlessly Xemacs (I'm guessing Emacs pulls this task off just as well). I have yet to open a document containing Japanese text under Xemacs and find myself looking at a screen of junk. Also, the flexibility of (X)Emacs (lisp) lets me incorporate Eng/Jp dictionary functionality (via EDICT-thanks M. Fabian!). Anyway, I'm grateful there's such a selection of editors out there even if I don't choose to use most of them. Just my 2 cents. Eric __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/
Caution - Religious post from an EMACS person :-) I use EMACS for text editing and developing programs. I also use it for editing HTML, since it has an HTML mode. EMACS is a language sensitive editor that works with most computer languages. While it does have word processing capabilities, I personally prefer a true word processor for that task. WRT:Star Office. While SO is now owned by Sun, wasn't it written in France by a French company, Star Division? I personally find Star Office cumbersome and limited, but it suits my needs. I also have MS Office under Crossover Office. On 16 Apr 2002 at 10:02, Brian Durant wrote:
On Tuesday 16 April 2002 07:59, Doug McGarrett wrote: - Why would any sane person try to learn emacs when there are so many simple - GUI word processors and even low level text editors that are easily accessable - available? An IT person might need emacs if there is no GUI on his system, - or even "edit" but for anybody else, just use a standard editor. - Just my 2c plain. (I suppose that emacs might do some print-ready - layout, if one were super sharp. But there are lots of other things - that do that, like StarOffice, for instance.)
Don't get me started on StarOffice ;-) I know I may make myself quite unpopular on the list, but seen from the viewpoint of an international user, StarOffice sucks big time. It unfortunately is a typical US centric product. While it does support a relatively large number of languages in the "deluxe" or whatever version, it is not available outside of the US. Only the "standard" whatsit version is.
As of yet, I don't believe (someone correct me if I am wrong - I haven't looked at SO since v. 5) that StarOffice supports bi-directional text processing (I don't need it, but there are a lot of people that do), nor do I believe that it supports the ability to write in Kanji, Cyrillic, Arabic; Hebrew (example) and English, Danish, French or whatever in the same document. There have also been people on the list complaining about footnote support problems as well.
Nisus Writer was what I used on the Mac and I have yet to meet its match.
Why would any sane person consider using emacs? If you read the thread, you would know that what I was ruminating about was that there were certain criteria that many people look for in office/text software and whether it is GUI or not isn't necessarily the first criteria:
1) How does XY stack up against MS Word/Office (.doc version support, .rtf support, und alles)? 2) Will support/development for XY vaporize? 3) How does XY bring me closer to cross-platform integration in my workplace? 4) Is XY GUI or command line? How steep is the learning curve?
If you have some suggestions that fit the above criteria and also has decent international capabilities, please enlighten myself and the rest of the list. Many people seem to be interested in this topic.
For a more general discussion on GUI versus command line, I would suggest the excellent book: "In the beginning... was the command line" by Neal Stephenson, author of "Cryptonomicon".
Cheers,
Brian
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When somebody joins a mailinglist naturaly that person receives all the mails that are sent to the mailling list, hence sending to the list is enough for me to read the replies no need to send it directly or via CC to me. * Doug McGarrett; <dougmack@i-2000.com> on 15 Apr, 2002 wrote:
Why would any sane person try to learn emacs when there are so many simple GUI word processors and even low level text editors that are easily accessable available? An IT person might need emacs if there is no GUI on his system, or even "edit" but for anybody else, just use a standard editor. Just my 2c plain. (I suppose that emacs might do some print-ready layout, if one were super sharp. But there are lots of other things that do that, like StarOffice, for instance.) --doug
An IT person needs to know "Vi" but not Emacs IMO, and Staroffice is not capable of producing pure content which cannot be rendered to desired styles. So a *sane* person who values the differences betweeen content and context does have the chance to use Docbook or XML and to produce the content Emacs is an option but Startoffice is not an answer. -- Togan Muftuoglu Unofficial SuSE FAQ Maintainer http://dinamizm.ath.cx
durant@cbn.net.id wrote:
On Monday 15 April 2002 06:41, David Johanson wrote: - A quick note about CrossOver Office. I purchased the program and with - all the tech support Codeweavers offered, it won't even install on my - SuSE 7.1 SCSI box. Comment from Codeweavers was to upgrade to version 8 - and try again. I note that MANY others are having similar problems, so - while some may find it works for them, that is definitely not the case - for all.
What is wrong with this picture? Applixware appears not to be supported anymore. There have been complaints in Linux Format (UK) about a lack of support for Win4Lin problems. They only support I have ever tried to get from SuSE was outside their support parameters. Looks to me like a business model problem, at least seen from the customer's point of view. <snip>
Brian
When I respond to someone's question as to whether or not a product will help them, I try to be objective and give general advise based on how the product will most likely work for them. One thing I avoid is "This product is crap because it didn't work for *ME*." If you read the codeweavers mail list (which I do) there are various issues with various programs that are consistent i.e., they are posted over and over, and there are other issues which involve one person and his particular machine/setup. Saying I'm using SuSE 7.1, 7.2, etc., doesn't tell the whole story because *my* problems with package x most likely has to do with a conflicting rpm that I installed 6 months ago, my library versions, or a jillion other possibilities. If I've seen 12 other people in the last week report the *exact* same problem I've had, I'll conclude it's a bug and advise the newbie to wait until this bug is fixed. If *I* couldn't make it work that doesn't mean there is something wrong with the product. At any rate, I just wanted to give Thomas objective information that can help him make an unbiased and informed decision. Hopefully, I've done that. As for codeweaver's support, I've opened support tickets and got the answers I needed. I have no complaints there. John
On Monday 15 April 2002 05:58, John Scott wrote:
Tom, a word of advice on wine: If you love to tinker and read docs, readme's, and howto's on the road to successfully using software, then download wine and learn to configure it. If you want to skip all that, download one of codeweaver's products. The Crossover Office version is getting decent reviews for running general software (particularly MS Office) and I use the Crossover plugin myself. It works great.
Does copy paste between linux apps and the MS apps work (such as copying text from a MSWord document to a text editor)? TIA, Jethro
On Monday 15 April 2002 00:12, Jethro Cramp wrote:
On Monday 15 April 2002 05:58, John Scott wrote:
Tom, a word of advice on wine: If you love to tinker and read docs, readme's, and howto's on the road to successfully using software, then download wine and learn to configure it. If you want to skip all that, download one of codeweaver's products. The Crossover Office version is getting decent reviews for running general software (particularly MS Office) and I use the Crossover plugin myself. It works great.
Does copy paste between linux apps and the MS apps work (such as copying text from a MSWord document to a text editor)?
TIA,
Jethro
I just tried it. Oddly, copying from MSWord to kwrite works but copying from kwrite to MSword just repeats the previously copied text from MSword. Drag and drop doesn't seem to work in either directionl. Bernie
participants (10)
-
Bernie Gardner -
Brian Durant -
David Johanson -
Doug McGarrett -
Eric Pierce -
Jerry Feldman -
Jethro Cramp -
John Scott -
Thomas E. Beasley, Jr. -
Togan Muftuoglu