[opensuse] Brother w/ Epson printer language support?; &?OT/admin
Mailing lists have been so low in volume I've wondered if it's the USA holiday, broken internet, a fluke, or something else. I'm a subscriber to over 70 mailing lists. Mondays are usually the busiest day of the week, typically well over 500 inbound. This one was no more than half normal for a Monday, across the board. My 68 month old Canon is now curbside in pieces in two garbage cans waiting for trash pickup, dead after not having used up one complete toner cartridge. I only bought it because right on the box it had "Linux" in its supported OS list. Little idea did I have what that really meant - never again Canon. Anyone own a laser Brother MF of any type, and know if it, or any Brothers, support the Epson 9-pin (FX, IIRC) printer language, as Brothers of yore (all?/mostly?) did. Something no HP ever did AFAIK, and AFAIK no Canon ever did, was support the printer language I learned when Lotus 1-2-3 was at v1.0. I still have spreadsheets with embedded printer codes. I would *like* to be able to print some of them on occasion without having to dig an Epson-supported parallel port dot matrix printer out of the cobwebs, rejuvenate its ribbon, boot DOS, and wait 10 minutes per page in order to get pseudo-satisfactory printer output of the plain text, plus Epson printer control codes (font selection, margin, page length, etc.), that they contain. Converting the spreadsheet themselves is not a practical option, because they are Quattro Pro for DOS native format, which AFAIk nothing imports, while exporting from QPD is limited to WK1 format, which loses far too much via the export process. What I have been doing is printing to a text file, loading it in web browser, and scaling until the overall width approximates sane, which typically wastes 5-15 sheets of paper figuring out each time, and rarely gets the margins or line spacing close to optimal. Is this a pipe dream? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 26/05/2015 09:01, Felix Miata a écrit :
Is this a pipe dream?
I'm not sure to understand fully what you want. Linux was always printing through ps based engine, so if what you want is printing from linux, you should be able to print to file as ps or pdf. but if you have still a dos machine running (freedos?) I have no idea. I use sometime "dosbox" for games, but never tried to print. fact is time ago any printer was sold with a manual giving the printer's codes and it's no more the case now AFAIK. you may also subscribe to the gutenprint mailing list and ask there, the printers experts are there jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
jdd composed on 2015-05-26 09:16 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata composed:
Is this a pipe dream?
I'm not sure to understand fully what you want.
Linux was always printing through ps based engine, so if what you want is printing from linux,
Printing "from Linux" was not the question, beyond the possibility of using my DOS program "in Linux", whether from DOSEmu, DOSBox or whatever.
you should be able to print to file as ps or pdf.
QPro DOS was released around 20 years ago. It has no print to PS or PDF option. It can only print to a supported "installed" (in the app) printer. The codes embedded in my spreadsheets are for printers that support an Epson printer language, which is nothing like PS or HP.
fact is time ago any printer was sold with a manual giving the printer's codes and it's no more the case now AFAIK.
I'm not interested in rewriting a whole library of spreadsheets with a new printer language. I'm too old to try learning another, or figuring out how to translate what's in them to something else.
you may also subscribe to the gutenprint mailing list and ask there, the printers experts are there
Is http://www.openprinting.org/driver/gutenprint/ what you mean? It seems to exclude all printer models that I can remember to be compatible with ancient DOS apps that support Epson FX/LX/LQ dialects. https://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?UseCookie=yes&infoType=FAQ&oid=14294&prodoid=8191&foid=49714 -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 26/05/2015 13:41, Felix Miata a écrit :
jdd composed on 2015-05-26 09:16 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata composed:
Is this a pipe dream?
I'm not sure to understand fully what you want.
Linux was always printing through ps based engine, so if what you want is printing from linux,
Printing "from Linux" was not the question, beyond the possibility of using my DOS program "in Linux", whether from DOSEmu, DOSBox or whatever.
I still don't understand from what computer/system you want to print. Obviously you have to run your program on some machine to be able to print?
you should be able to print to file as ps or pdf.
QPro DOS was released around 20 years ago. It has no print to PS or PDF option. It can only print to a supported "installed" (in the app) printer. The codes embedded in my spreadsheets are for printers that support an Epson printer language, which is nothing like PS or HP.
gs was perfectly able to print to epson needle printer (I did so). If you can run your program (QPro?) in any emulator, it should print also in any linux compatible printer
fact is time ago any printer was sold with a manual giving the printer's codes and it's no more the case now AFAIK.
I'm not interested in rewriting a whole library of spreadsheets with a new printer language.
no need to do so I'm too old to try learning another, or figuring out how to
translate what's in them to something else.
you may also subscribe to the gutenprint mailing list and ask there, the printers experts are there
Is http://www.openprinting.org/driver/gutenprint/ what you mean? It seems to exclude all printer models that I can remember to be compatible with ancient DOS apps that support Epson FX/LX/LQ dialects. https://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?UseCookie=yes&infoType=FAQ&oid=14294&prodoid=8191&foid=49714
and this? http://www.openprinting.org/printer/Epson/Epson-Dot_Matrix jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
jdd composed on 2015-05-26 14:48 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata composed:
jdd composed on 2015-05-26 09:16 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata composed:
Is this a pipe dream?
I'm not sure to understand fully what you want.
Linux was always printing through ps based engine, so if what you want is printing from linux,
Printing "from Linux" was not the question, beyond the possibility of using my DOS program "in Linux", whether from DOSEmu, DOSBox or whatever.
I still don't understand from what computer/system you want to print. Obviously you have to run your program on some machine to be able to print?
I'm not being picky about how. I just want stuff in existing DOS spreadsheets appropriately dumped onto paper, as much like as was possible when they were created over two decades ago, when most printers connected via parallel ports, and Win95's PNP and USB hadn't yet been loosed on the public. That could mean booting DOS, but in order to reach a USB or network printer it may need to be the DOS app running in DOS emulated under something else, preferably Linux. Possibly it could mean FreeDOS under Linux, or FreeDOS on hardware.
you should be able to print to file as ps or pdf.
QPro DOS was released around 20 years ago. It has no print to PS or PDF option. It can only print to a supported "installed" (in the app) printer. The codes embedded in my spreadsheets are for printers that support an Epson printer language, which is nothing like PS or HP.
gs was perfectly able to print to epson needle printer (I did so). If you can run your program (QPro?) in any emulator, it should print also in any linux compatible printer
Only if the printers and/or CUPS and/or Gutenprint are able to translate the text mode output. The Epson printer controls are embedded in the spreadsheet content for printing in text mode, seconds per page, vs. the several minutes per page had they been designed for graphical mode.
fact is time ago any printer was sold with a manual giving the printer's codes and it's no more the case now AFAIK.
I'm not interested in rewriting a whole library of spreadsheets with a new printer language.
no need to do so
How remains to be discovered.
I'm too old to try learning another, or figuring out how to
translate what's in them to something else.
you may also subscribe to the gutenprint mailing list and ask there, the printers experts are there
Is http://www.openprinting.org/driver/gutenprint/ what you mean? It seems to exclude all printer models that I can remember to be compatible with ancient DOS apps that support Epson FX/LX/LQ dialects. https://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/supDetail.jsp?UseCookie=yes&infoType=FAQ&oid=14294&prodoid=8191&foid=49714
and this?
There's hope there, but no mailing list. :-( The bigger reason for the thread is the issue of choosing a new MF printer, preferably one natively handling Epson FX/LX/LQ printer control languages. Right now I have no FAX, no copier, and no ability to print anything from Linux. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 26/05/2015 15:21, Felix Miata a écrit :
jdd composed on 2015-05-26 14:48 (UTC+0200):
I still don't understand from what computer/system you want to print. Obviously you have to run your program on some machine to be able to print?
I'm not being picky about how. I just want stuff in existing DOS spreadsheets appropriately dumped onto paper
so your problem is not to find a printer but to find an application able to print your spreadsheet from file? the epson link you shared yourself, was clear: the printing was up to the application, not the system. Chance is your aplication did store the format as binary blob and convert it to the needed printer at print time. If so, no other way than running the original. then it's not obvious but seems doable. Load a freedos virtualbox image: http://virtualboxes.org/images/freedos/ then ead this: http://virtualboxes.org/images/freedos/
Only if the printers and/or CUPS and/or Gutenprint are able to translate the text mode output. The Epson printer controls are embedded in the spreadsheet content for printing in text mode, seconds per page, vs. the several minutes per page had they been designed for graphical mode.
if what you have a file that is directly printable to a needle printer, you should be able to print is through the epson gs filter. I did such thing 10 years ago, before cups, but do not really recall how.
The bigger reason for the thread is the issue of choosing a new MF printer, preferably one natively handling Epson FX/LX/LQ printer control languages. Right now I have no FAX, no copier, and no ability to print anything from Linux.
you still can try to print to pdf, best way to test without losing paper :-) may be you can share one of these spreadsheet for us to test? jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
jdd composed on 2015-05-26 15:38 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata composed:
jdd composed on 2015-05-26 14:48 (UTC+0200):
I still don't understand from what computer/system you want to print. Obviously you have to run your program on some machine to be able to print?
I'm not being picky about how. I just want stuff in existing DOS spreadsheets appropriately dumped onto paper
so your problem is not to find a printer but to find an application able to print your spreadsheet from file?
I doubt it any application exists that can translate this application's file content to printer output except this application itself. Several times over the years I looked for any application that could read or import its files, and never found one. Even the application's author (Borland), before it ceased to exist, failed to create one for those who upgraded to its replacement (for Windows).
the epson link you shared yourself, was clear: the printing was up to the application, not the system.
AFAIK, that is how all printing from major DOS apps worked (e.g, Lotus 1-2-3, WordPerfect, dBase, etc., plus the one I use, Quattro Pro).
Chance is your aplication did store the format as binary blob and convert it to the needed printer at print time.
I don't think that's how it worked unless printing in graphical mode. All my files are configured for text mode, with Epson printer codes embedded in spreadsheet cells.
If so, no other way than running the original.
then it's not obvious but seems doable. Load a freedos virtualbox image:
then ead this:
I tried DOS in virtual machines years back. I was always hung up by inability to get screen mode acceptable, so never got as far as trying to figure out printing. Like with printers, DOS required video card drivers specific to the gfxchips. AFAIK, the only PCIe cards at least theoretically compatible are from ATI now AMD, but the required compatibility is blocked by the virtual layer offering DOS apps only some sort of generic video. For video, OS/2 and eComStation run Quattro Pro better than DOS ever did. But they never would print except in graphical mode, and AFAIK, still won't, so only can print from a file, and the only print file type available from Quattro Pro is plain visible text.
Only if the printers and/or CUPS and/or Gutenprint are able to translate the text mode output. The Epson printer controls are embedded in the spreadsheet content for printing in text mode, seconds per page, vs. the several minutes per page had they been designed for graphical mode.
if what you have a file that is directly printable to a needle printer, you should be able to print is through the epson gs filter. I did such thing 10 years ago, before cups, but do not really recall how.
The bigger reason for the thread is the issue of choosing a new MF printer, preferably one natively handling Epson FX/LX/LQ printer control languages. Right now I have no FAX, no copier, and no ability to print anything from Linux.
you still can try to print to pdf,
Without a printer to get the pdf onto paper, to what end?
best way to test without losing paper :-)
This app only prints to a DOS-supported (aka character mode) printer (which excludes all PS printers, and PDF) or to plain text file. My history with PDF for any reason is terrible, typically having to choose between legible size text, and not having to scroll horizontally. IOW, they virturally always have A11Y and/or U7Y issues. Even thinking about PDF raises my blood pressure. The only PDFs that have ever worked OK for me has been invoices that vendors can no longer be bothered to print themselves and mail or include in their shipments, and rebate forms.
may be you can share one of these spreadsheet for us to test?
To what end, unless you have the same DOS app that reads the native WQ!, WQ1 and WQ3 formats? http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/vid-dvd.wq! -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 26/05/2015 16:31, Felix Miata a écrit :
I don't think that's how it worked unless printing in graphical mode. All my files are configured for text mode, with Epson printer codes embedded in spreadsheet cells.
if so you don't need the app
Without a printer to get the pdf onto paper, to what end?
every modern printer prints pdf...
may be you can share one of these spreadsheet for us to test?
To what end, unless you have the same DOS app that reads the native WQ!, WQ1 and WQ3 formats? http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/vid-dvd.wq!
wrong URL then you ask for help but do not provide ways to answer... please, give an example jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-05-26 16:40, jdd wrote:
may be you can share one of these spreadsheet for us to test?
To what end, unless you have the same DOS app that reads the native WQ!, WQ1 and WQ3 formats? http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/vid-dvd.wq!
wrong URL
It works here, I downloaded the file. cer@Telcontar:~/Downloads/Firefox_downloads> file vid-dvd.wq\! vid-dvd.wq!: data cer@Telcontar:~/Downloads/Firefox_downloads> Maybe the old StarOffice has a chance of opening it :-? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Le 26/05/2015 16:49, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 2015-05-26 16:40, jdd wrote:
may be you can share one of these spreadsheet for us to test?
To what end, unless you have the same DOS app that reads the native WQ!, WQ1 and WQ3 formats? http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/vid-dvd.wq!
wrong URL
It works here, I downloaded the file.
the link in th lacked the final ! I have it now jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
jdd composed on 2015-05-26 16:40 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata compose:
I don't think that's how it worked unless printing in graphical mode. All my files are configured for text mode, with Epson printer codes embedded in spreadsheet cells.
if so you don't need the app
Please elaborate.
Without a printer to get the pdf onto paper, to what end?
every modern printer prints pdf...
Again you lost me. I'm printer shopping, unable to print anything except possibly to an ancient parallel printer that hasn't been used this century.
may be you can share one of these spreadsheet for us to test?
To what end, unless you have the same DOS app that reads the native WQ!, WQ1 and WQ3 formats? http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/vid-dvd.wq!
wrong URL
SeaMonkey tries to download it here, the expected result. Maybe I misunderstood what you asked that I share?
then you ask for help but do not provide ways to answer...
please, give an example
That is a Quattro Pro for DOS native file. I thought you wanted to try to open it to try printing it? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-05-26 17:02, Felix Miata wrote:
jdd composed on 2015-05-26 16:40 (UTC+0200):
wrong URL
SeaMonkey tries to download it here, the expected result. Maybe I misunderstood what you asked that I share?
The exclamation sign at the end can be ignored when clicking on the URL, and fails. I pasted it complete in FF and it downloaded. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Le 26/05/2015 17:02, Felix Miata a écrit :
jdd composed on 2015-05-26 16:40 (UTC+0200):
I don't think that's how it worked unless printing in graphical mode. All my files are configured for text mode, with Epson printer codes embedded in spreadsheet cells.
I was understanding that your files where text files. Obviously not, there are binary. You added epson codes in the spreadsheet cells!! whow. do you remember theses codes? (or do you have any old epson manual)? just to see if a simple script could detect the cells in the file
Again you lost me. I'm printer shopping, unable to print anything except possibly to an ancient parallel printer that hasn't been used this century.
what I say is than you can test everything in linux printing to pdf, to save paper. If you can generate a pdf, you can print.
That is a Quattro Pro for DOS native file. I thought you wanted to try to open it to try printing it?
yes, I did. is wq! the normal extension for such files? surprising for a dos file to have a ! in it may be it should be wq1 (number one)? http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/Quattro_Pro seems still supported by corel jdd (still searching) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
jdd composed on 2015-05-26 18:29 (UTC+0200):
I was understanding that your files where text files. Obviously not, there are binary. You added epson codes in the spreadsheet cells!! whow.
do you remember theses codes?
Remember? Not without looking at some I used.
(or do you have any old epson manual)?
Those I used are mostly likely all included in this FX 800 list: http://www.lprng.com/DISTRIB/RESOURCES/PPD/epson.htm
just to see if a simple script could detect the cells in the file
AFAICT, they don't need "detecting". They are spreadsheet cell content that tells the printer how rather than what. The rows they appear on are skipped WRT ink or toner going to paper.
is wq! the normal extension for such files? surprising for a dos file to have a ! in it
It's an optional extension, not default...
may be it should be wq1 (number one)?
Not unless selected in the app.
That page is incomplete. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synex_Systems_Corporation#SQZ.21 in one sentence touches on a tiny bit of what it lacks. Here are four lines from the Quattro Pro for DOS 5/5.5/5.6 manuals: .WKZ compresses files from earlier versions of Quattro 1.0. .WQ! compresses Quattro Pro spreadsheet files (version 4 and earlier) .WK$ compresses Lotus 1-2-3 .WKS files .WK! compresses Lotus 1-2-3 .WK1 files
seems still supported by corel
Seems reasonable. jdd composed on 2015-05-26 18:32 (UTC+0200):
Felix, do you still have a running instance of quattro?
It's the primary reason I run OS/2 (in an eComStation incarnation) 24/7. For actually running DOS apps, it's the best thing there ever was. BIOS disk I/O in DOS was horrific with file sizes of any consequence; in OS/2, lickity split via competent ATA driver and caching. DOS emulation in Linux only works if not in need of VESA SVGA text modes, which using my file collection requires. If printing from DOS apps is required in OS/2 it's another story entirely. IIRC, only printing to plain text file is possible running DOS in OS/2, because embedded control codes for DOS printing monkeywrenches whatever it is that makes GUI printing in OS/2 work. Details are far beyond my recollection. jdd composed on 2015-05-26 20:27 (UTC+0200):
Felix, do you still have quattro available? I wonder if it could export document to xls, for example?
Exporting to WK1 is the best offered, and it loses too much.
the file you publish is not readable. It's extension (wq!)is special, may be it's a compressed file!
No maybe about it. :-)
Hmmm, I don't remember ever seeing anything about getting WQ! files into WordPerfect. WP for DOS 6.2 I have, but haven't opened in probably over a decade, and great as printing was in WP DOS, it would likely have limitations similar to the native app whether trying to export or to print. This could use some further investigation, but that begs the OP question. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 27/05/2015 11:45, Felix Miata a écrit :
jdd composed on 2015-05-26 18:29 (UTC+0200):
may be it should be wq1 (number one)?
Not unless selected in the app.
you should try to write the file as wq1 it's pretty frequent that converter do not read compressed files, but read standard files. here neither corel office nor the converter do read the file (in fact they read it but as garbage)
Felix, do you still have a running instance of quattro?
It's the primary reason I run OS/2
Exporting to WK1 is the best offered, and it loses too much.
even in the record to file menu? it's curious no non-compressed version be available. I used corel from here (demo version, free for one month) http://www.wordperfect.com/us/product/corel-office-software/?showdialog=free... it have the file extension in his menus and see the file, but do not load it else than garbage jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 05/26/2015 09:21 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
Only if the printers and/or CUPS and/or Gutenprint are able to translate the text mode output. The Epson printer controls are embedded in the spreadsheet content for printing in text mode, seconds per page, vs. the several minutes per page had they been designed for graphical mode.
As I said: If you can send the printer output stream to a file with those embedded control then you can print it RAW MODE to one of a number of Brother laser printers that suppose Epsom FX. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-05-26 15:21, Felix Miata wrote:
jdd composed on 2015-05-26 14:48 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata composed:
QPro DOS was released around 20 years ago. It has no print to PS or PDF option. It can only print to a supported "installed" (in the app) printer. The codes embedded in my spreadsheets are for printers that support an Epson printer language, which is nothing like PS or HP.
gs was perfectly able to print to epson needle printer (I did so). If you can run your program (QPro?) in any emulator, it should print also in any linux compatible printer
Only if the printers and/or CUPS and/or Gutenprint are able to translate the text mode output. The Epson printer controls are embedded in the spreadsheet content for printing in text mode, seconds per page, vs. the several minutes per page had they been designed for graphical mode.
I remember this. Old pin printers could print text natively and fast. You sent the letters to the printer, and the machine converted them internally to the correct dot sequence for printing. With special chars that were not printed (esc codes) you could tell the printer to change font size (usually width, not height), and perhaps underline, bold, italics, on some models. This was fast. But all programs had to support the printer language internally. The OS did nothing, except send byte by byte to the printer port, if asked. When Windows 3 came, it changed things. It included printer drivers, we got access to different fonts in pages, plus proportional spacing; but pages were printed as whole page of graphics, which was very slow on these machines. Ink jets then started to be popular because they sped printing considerably, but they were more expensive.
The bigger reason for the thread is the issue of choosing a new MF printer, preferably one natively handling Epson FX/LX/LQ printer control languages. Right now I have no FAX, no copier, and no ability to print anything from Linux.
I suspect there are still models that do it. Banks still use ribbon and pin printers... I think you are not the only one with this requirement. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Felix Miata wrote:
Mailing lists have been so low in volume I've wondered if it's the USA holiday, broken internet, a fluke, or something else. I'm a subscriber to over 70 mailing lists. Mondays are usually the busiest day of the week, typically well over 500 inbound. This one was no more than half normal for a Monday, across the board.
Monday was Whitmonday / Pfingstmontag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whit_Monday It is a public holiday in many countries, including Germany, Austria, the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Luxembourg, Hungary, Denmark and Switzerland. In the UK, I think it was the Spring Bank Holiday which sometimes coincides with Whitmonday. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.4°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 05/26/2015 03:01 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
Anyone own a laser Brother MF of any type, and know if it, or any Brothers, support the Epson 9-pin (FX, IIRC) printer language, as Brothers of yore (all?/mostly?) did. Something no HP ever did AFAIK, and AFAIK no Canon ever did, was support the printer language I learned when Lotus 1-2-3 was at v1.0.
My Brother laser printer supports FX-80 and FX-850. Perusing the Brother site I see many laser printers that are Epsom emulation capable I also understand that CUPS can be set up in 'raw' mode to bypass all that ghostscript processing! As it happens my brother printer can handle PDF directly and I use RAW mode for that :-) -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward composed on 2015-05-26 10:03 (UTC-0400):
On 05/26/2015 03:01 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
Anyone own a laser Brother MF of any type, and know if it, or any Brothers, support the Epson 9-pin (FX, IIRC) printer language, as Brothers of yore (all?/mostly?) did. Something no HP ever did AFAIK, and AFAIK no Canon ever did, was support the printer language I learned when Lotus 1-2-3 was at v1.0.
My Brother laser printer supports FX-80 and FX-850.
Please provide model numbers so I can have him look up to prove such exist.
Perusing the Brother site I see many laser printers that are Epsom emulation capable
When I try that I find none. I have Brother on phone. Rep is no help so far. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata composed on 2015-05-26 11:45 (UTC-0400):
Anton Aylward composed on 2015-05-26 10:03 (UTC-0400):
My Brother laser printer supports FX-80 and FX-850.
Please provide model numbers so I can have him look up to prove such exist.
Perusing the Brother site I see many laser printers that are Epsom emulation capable
When I try that I find none.
I have Brother on phone. Rep is no help so far.
This was obviously supposed to go directly, only, and quickly, to Anton, but apparently he has reply-to set to list. Anyway FTR, even though Brother's web site generates 0 hits when search term epson is used, the rep reported I can choose between epson support but no copier function[1], or a both epson support and copier function but only in a size too big for the available space[2]. The otherwise ideal MF device that fits my space omits epson emulation[3]. :-( [1] http://www.brother-usa.com/mfc/ModelDetail/4/MFC8710DW/spec [2] http://www.brother-usa.com/Printer/ModelDetail/1/HL5470DW/Overview [3] http://www.brother-usa.com/MFC/ModelDetail/4/MFCL2720DW/spec -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata composed on 2015-05-26 12:07 (UTC-0400):
[2] http://www.brother-usa.com/Printer/ModelDetail/1/HL5470DW/Overview
I bought a brand new one of these from Newegg for $139 delivered. Because of the confusing collection of docs provided with it, which included no printed manual like was supplied with every other printer I ever bought, it took some time to get to work. It seems to have turned out that all that's required for Linux use is to fetch and zypper install 2 rpms from Brother's web site, set the machine to a fixed IP, then give YaST the opportunity to do its thing. I wonder how it would work on any other distro? For color, copying and scanning I expect to be getting http://www.brother-usa.com/MFC/ModelDetail/4/MFC420CN/ from a good friend who never used it yet for $100. He bought an Apple Mini and inexplicably an HP printer at the same time as the Brother, and only ever used the HP. I'm not sure whether the 5470 is actually working as it should. Each use causes the 900VA UPS plugged into the same 15A wall receptacle as the printer to squawk when the printer starts up. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/14/2015 09:21 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
I'm not sure whether the 5470 is actually working as it should. Each use causes the 900VA UPS plugged into the same 15A wall receptacle as the printer to squawk when the printer starts up.
Yes it will do that. My HL5170Dn does that! Please do not connect it though your UPS. It puts a strain on the surge protection circuitry. I'd advise putting it on a separate dedicated surge protector power bar. I can't see a printer needing to be on the UPS. It might take out the UPS and take the computer/storage down! I have my printer on a completely separate power circuit. Separate wiring from the house's main switch pane; separate fuse/trip. The surge protector has nothing else connected. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward composed on 2015-06-14 10:47 (UTC-0400):
Felix Miata wrote:
I'm not sure whether the 5470 is actually working as it should. Each use causes the 900VA UPS plugged into the same 15A wall receptacle as the printer to squawk when the printer starts up.
Yes it will do that. My HL5170Dn does that!
Please do not connect it though your UPS. It puts a strain on the surge protection circuitry.
You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote: The UPS is plugging directly into the wall socket of a 15Amp circuit rarely used by anything except at this wall socket. Into the UPS are plugged cords for devices that are supported by and need to be on battery backup. Supported devices do not include laser printers. The printer was plugged into a surge suppressing power strip plugged into the same wall socket. It was this configuration causing the UPS to squawk when the printer was powered up or awakened for a print job. I moved the printer's power cord directly to the wall socket, but the UPS squawking continues.
I'd advise putting it on a separate dedicated surge protector power bar. I can't see a printer needing to be on the UPS. It might take out the UPS and take the computer/storage down!
I've never plugged a laser printer into a UPS under this roof, probably never anywhere. IIRC, I read the installation instructions on delivery of a HP LaserJet in 1984, long enough ago to remember. I'm guessing what's probably going on here is the UPS is the problem. It's old, having been subjected to countless attacks here in the lightning capital of North America, yet its battery is relatively young. Either it's over-sensitive to voltage fluctuation from laser power-up, or the 5470 is drawing excessively, possibly explaining the big recent price drop for the model, which is at least one step above the bottom of Brother's laser printer line. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/14/2015 04:05 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
Anton Aylward composed on 2015-06-14 10:47 (UTC-0400):
Felix Miata wrote:
I'm not sure whether the 5470 is actually working as it should. Each use causes the 900VA UPS plugged into the same 15A wall receptacle as the printer to squawk when the printer starts up.
Yes it will do that. My HL5170Dn does that!
Please do not connect it though your UPS. It puts a strain on the surge protection circuitry.
You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote:
:-/ My bad. I'd still offer "Please do not connect it though your UPS" as good advice and you seem to agree.
The printer was plugged into a surge suppressing power strip plugged into the same wall socket
......
I'm guessing what's probably going on here is the UPS is the problem. It's old, having been subjected to countless attacks here in the lightning capital of North America, yet its battery is relatively young. Either it's over-sensitive to voltage fluctuation from laser power-up, or the 5470 is drawing excessively, possibly explaining the big recent price drop for the model, which is at least one step above the bottom of Brother's laser printer line.
My guess is slightly different. Yes a sudden power draw might, just might, cause a voltage drop. It depends on how good your feeder is. What is more likely is that the printer is cause sudden shift in the phase for a moment and that is upsetting the sensors of the UPS. A local restaurant bought, without realising what it was, a "power saver". Yes it reduced their power bills. What it in fact was turned out to be a honking great capacitor that pulled the phase of their refrigerator compressor motors back. They were extolling this and salesman there was under the impression that this would work anywhere for anybody. He became angry with me when I explained some basic alternating current electrical principles to him. Late model refrigerators come with capacitors built in :-) As I say, my Brother, when in the same 2-outlet wall socket, paralleling my UPS as your describe, caused problems, sometimes even blowing the fuse. I don't over-rate my fusing. So I have it on a completely separate circuit, it may be my imagination but sometimes I think it dims the light when it starts ... or maybe that's the starship warp drive engaging ... -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-06-14 23:09, Anton Aylward wrote:
A local restaurant bought, without realising what it was, a "power saver".
I'm interested in finding out what these things are. I see them being sold for homes, but nothing in the box says what they are. And no, I haven't bought one, nor had a chance to disassemble one...
Yes it reduced their power bills. What it in fact was turned out to be a honking great capacitor that pulled the phase of their refrigerator compressor motors back. They were extolling this and salesman there was under the impression that this would work anywhere for anybody. He became angry with me when I explained some basic alternating current electrical principles to him. Late model refrigerators come with capacitors built in :-)
A power factor corrector, then. Can be a capacitor, or a bank of them with switches that adjust automatically. Or electronic switches only, similar to a pwm. But they should be used to get a factor of one, not to pull it the other way... is that what they are doing?
As I say, my Brother, when in the same 2-outlet wall socket, paralleling my UPS as your describe, caused problems, sometimes even blowing the fuse. I don't over-rate my fusing. So I have it on a completely separate circuit, it may be my imagination but sometimes I think it dims the light when it starts ... or maybe that's the starship warp drive engaging ...
:-) Bad design on the printer, if it demands so much initial load. Yep. I have seen entire computer rooms go down, with loads well within the limits, because a ground fault detector found a fault (differential switch, they are called here. Mandatory ussage) . The switching power supplies in computers often leak a bit. Too many of them, or a bad one, and the ground fault triggers. Drives the electrician men mad, LOL. I had to explain things to some of them ;-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlV9+IEACgkQja8UbcUWM1zdugD/aQ1Qv1e2uIBTc6kunKtmlgtw jUa6F9vL6lP61718HM0A/208n6CqNjAaraMvoFcTIkj+iQoIoBvV1m6Mp6Usm2EY =X73p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/14/2015 05:56 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But they should be used to get a factor of one, not to pull it the other way... is that what they are doing?
Close to 1. My PowerCo assumes a 1.0something Motors present an inductive load. By comparison, fluorescent lights presents, to a 50/60Hz signal, a capacitive load. (To a kilohertz signal it's another matter! Tesla powered some of his at 20kHz.) So there is a 'choke' or inductive power factor correction. We take that for granted and don't think about it. Hmm. Reality is most people don't think about power factor at all. When I explained to the restaurant owner what he'd bought as 'power saver' he simply didn't follow and the salesman who wanted in on this became annoyed when I 'trivialized' the matter. To EEs and the like this is "Bleedin' obvious, ain't it?" -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-06-15 05:10, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 06/14/2015 05:56 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But they should be used to get a factor of one, not to pull it the other way... is that what they are doing?
Close to 1. My PowerCo assumes a 1.0something
Motors present an inductive load.
By comparison, fluorescent lights presents, to a 50/60Hz signal, a capacitive load. (To a kilohertz signal it's another matter! Tesla powered some of his at 20kHz.)
Compact fluorescent bulbs do this as well, to reduce the size tremendously. I don't know at what frequency.
So there is a 'choke' or inductive power factor correction. We take that for granted and don't think about it.
In the case of fluorescents, there is another reason: the tubes have "negative" resistance. If you connect them directly and you manage to light them, they explode.
Hmm. Reality is most people don't think about power factor at all.
No...
When I explained to the restaurant owner what he'd bought as 'power saver' he simply didn't follow and the salesman who wanted in on this became annoyed when I 'trivialized' the matter. To EEs and the like this is "Bleedin' obvious, ain't it?"
I know what power factor is, but I have difficulties understanding where the "savings" come from, for the client. It must be a commercial trickering. If the power factor is, say, 0.8, the actual current has to increase 20% for the motor to move the same load. The resulting power is the same, but the current is not. Thus the cables have to be thicker, and the load on the electricity supply network and generators increase. Not the power, the energy used, but the resources needed to transport and generate it. Thicker cables, transformers, generators, switches. Heavier towers to support the heavier cables. So what they do is penalize customers which do not compensate their power factor to close to one. But, if there is no penalization (and at homes they don't install equipment to measure the power factor (or reactive power)), I don't see the gain in money to the small client. Maybe I'm missing something obvious... :-? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 06/15/2015 07:19 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
So what they do is penalize customers which do not compensate their power factor to close to one. But, if there is no penalization (and at homes they don't install equipment to measure the power factor (or reactive power)), I don't see the gain in money to the small client.
Maybe I'm missing something obvious... :-?
There are many good articles on the 'Net about this, but here's the simplest analogy I can think of that draws the difference between kW and kVA. Think in terms of force vectors, a boat or a plane or more simply dragging a block. The rope goes over your shoulder so the force vector is not horizontal, even though you are trying to drag the block horizontally. Electric motors, for example, work by creating magnetic fields which produce a back emf, in opposition to the applied voltage. This causes the supply current to lag the applied voltage. The resulting out of phase current component cannot deliver usable power, yet it adds to the required supply and hence costs. As discussed earlier in this thread, fitting capacitors across motors reduces the phase lag and improves their power factor. In the limiting case where the phase lag is 90 degrees there is no work being done. Power factor = cosine(90) = 0 so Volts X Amps X Power Factor = 0 even though Volts X Amps is non zero. So the power factor tells how much more power is needed to do the 'rated' work of the machine. More power, bigger bills. As I understand it, this also affects the power distribution grid, hence network costs increase as well. Again, googling will show sites that do calculation on how much you can save. When I looked into this at the time I found that this was serious business; there are many industries that run powerful electrical motors and hence there is a market for pretty huge capacitor banks. I also found that the power network have huge capacitor banks at some substations! Some authorities raise the point 'where does this power go?'. Good question. Maybe heat? IsquaredR losses still apply. In fact to get the same power, more current has to be drawn since voltage is a constant. Other think it produces some kind of electrical back-pressure on the generator. Certainly the utility company can tell if you are running with an abnormal load factor. How does this relate to us? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply#Power_factor for a start. All of our desktop PCs and many rackmount systems use switched mode power. Most of my equipment is "EnergyStar" rated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Star Not just computer equipment but my refrigerator and lighting, HVAC, washer/dryer. All of these are devices which alter the 'load factor' and need correction. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-06-15 14:03, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 06/15/2015 07:19 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something obvious... :-?
There are many good articles on the 'Net about this, but here's the simplest analogy I can think of that draws the difference between kW and kVA.
I know all that, my doubt is not with that. :-) What I don't understand is how a power factor corrector is going to save money for a client, unless the company measures the power factor at the premises. And here in my country they don't, unless your contract is for a high enough current, or it is an industrial installation. Maybe it is different in your country?
Some authorities raise the point 'where does this power go?'. Good question. Maybe heat?
Yes. Higher current, higher losses on the entire network.
IsquaredR losses still apply. In fact to get the same power, more current has to be drawn since voltage is a constant. Other think it produces some kind of electrical back-pressure on the generator.
:-????
Certainly the utility company can tell if you are running with an abnormal load factor.
Only if they place a measurement device at the entry point to your premises.
How does this relate to us? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply#Power_factor for a start.
Interesting. But the issue there are harmonics, more than the power factor. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 06/15/2015 08:14 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-06-15 14:03, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 06/15/2015 07:19 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something obvious... :-?
There are many good articles on the 'Net about this, but here's the simplest analogy I can think of that draws the difference between kW and kVA.
I know all that, my doubt is not with that. :-)
What I don't understand is how a power factor corrector is going to save money for a client, unless the company measures the power factor at the premises. And here in my country they don't, unless your contract is for a high enough current, or it is an industrial installation. Maybe it is different in your country?
I don't think they do domestically but they might for commercial or industrial plant. it wouldn't be difficult. However the obvious cost saving lies in the fact that power factor correction means less current is drawn for the same consumed power. Most places bull by the amount of current used, the kilowatt hours. Recall voltage is the constant.
Some authorities raise the point 'where does this power go?'. Good question. Maybe heat?
Yes. Higher current, higher losses on the entire network.
Higher current -> more cost.
IsquaredR losses still apply. In fact to get the same power, more current has to be drawn since voltage is a constant. Other think it produces some kind of electrical back-pressure on the generator.
:-????
Me too. It seems the phase shift is noticeable back up the line ...
Certainly the utility company can tell if you are running with an abnormal load factor.
Only if they place a measurement device at the entry point to your premises.
As I said, I don't see them doing that domestically. Never the less I see on my bill the assumption of a "Loss factor adjustment" of 1.0376. I presume that is "assumed" rather than measured as its the same from month to month regardless of my use of heating or air conditioning or the months when I need neither. I woold *expect* industrial consumers to have it measured.
How does this relate to us? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply#Power_factor for a start.
Interesting. But the issue there are harmonics, more than the power factor.
I look around the house at the appliances I have, the 'always on' such as the fridge & computer stuff are EnergyStar; even some like the vacuum cleaner and washer/dryer are too. All things with motors. That being said, harmonic distortions ar e power wasters as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor#Distortion_power_factor Once again, the power factor means more current is being used than is needed. The difference between kVA and kW. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-06-15 16:42, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 06/15/2015 08:14 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
However the obvious cost saving lies in the fact that power factor correction means less current is drawn for the same consumed power. Most places bull by the amount of current used, the kilowatt hours. Recall voltage is the constant.
AHH! I understand now... so that's it. Yes, it makes sense. They measure the current, not the actual power. Or at least, those saver gadgets assume that. I don't know if that would work here, though. The new meters installed by the company are not electromechanical, but electronic, with a microprocessor. They do some kind of integration and calculation, and send the data to a remote data center automatically; it would not surprise me if they measure the voltage and phase. I have verified that connecting a load via a half wave rectifier, meaning half power, is measured correctly. I don't have, currently, a heavy load that can be adjusted with a thyristor, to test. Or something with a heavy power factor. It is possible they do measure actual power factor now. I don't have the specs :-(
IsquaredR losses still apply. In fact to get the same power, more current has to be drawn since voltage is a constant. Other think it produces some kind of electrical back-pressure on the generator.
:-????
Me too. It seems the phase shift is noticeable back up the line ...
Yes, of course it is. But it is averaged with all the loads, and they can compensate on the stations.
Certainly the utility company can tell if you are running with an abnormal load factor.
Only if they place a measurement device at the entry point to your premises.
As I said, I don't see them doing that domestically.
That was my understanding, yes. Till recently, at least.
Never the less I see on my bill the assumption of a "Loss factor adjustment" of 1.0376. I presume that is "assumed" rather than measured as its the same from month to month regardless of my use of heating or air conditioning or the months when I need neither.
Yes, it must be assumed. My bill doesn't say.
I woold *expect* industrial consumers to have it measured.
Yes. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlV+6DMACgkQja8UbcUWM1xtUAD/efoSedAw3SZHWPXeOomC9r9+ AA+txz5D6u/E80gVshsA/i+cQaMRYzX+shiU0I71erNLwyYtXjlwjomx7FNrYt4T =tpCg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/15/2015 10:59 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Me too. It seems the phase shift is noticeable back up the line ...
Yes, of course it is. But it is averaged with all the loads, and they can compensate on the stations.
Yes and no. There are things - green boxes with TorontoHydro labels and electrical warning signs - all over the place. I know for sure that each office tower, each shopping plaza, each mall has its own sub-whatever. perhaps not full blown substation, but 'station' of some kind. Big Green Box. http://www.aaron.ca/columns/2002-08-31.htm As I understand it, these are local step-down transformers. What else they have in the way of metering I do not know. There is also, nearby, a 'fake house'. I believe it is what is called a 'transformer vault'. Its made up to look like a house for aesthetics. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-06-15 17:18, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 06/15/2015 10:59 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
There are things - green boxes with TorontoHydro labels and electrical warning signs - all over the place. I know for sure that each office tower, each shopping plaza, each mall has its own sub-whatever. perhaps not full blown substation, but 'station' of some kind. Big Green Box.
The "in" or cool thing nowdays here is to have them underground. Very nice. No view obstruction. Compact. Very nice when they get fire... and they do. No way to get inside. And as they are often cooled with oil, superheated oil can explode. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 06/15/2015 10:42 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
I don't think they do domestically but they might for commercial or industrial plant. it wouldn't be difficult.
It is used for industrial plant and there are motor controllers that reduce the power factor.
However the obvious cost saving lies in the fact that power factor correction means less current is drawn for the same consumed power. Most places bull by the amount of current used, the kilowatt hours. Recall voltage is the constant.
You pay for power, not current. Voltage can change significantly. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/15/2015 07:19 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-06-15 05:10, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 06/14/2015 05:56 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But they should be used to get a factor of one, not to pull it the other way... is that what they are doing?
Close to 1. My PowerCo assumes a 1.0something
Motors present an inductive load.
By comparison, fluorescent lights presents, to a 50/60Hz signal, a capacitive load. (To a kilohertz signal it's another matter! Tesla powered some of his at 20kHz.)
Compact fluorescent bulbs do this as well, to reduce the size tremendously. I don't know at what frequency.
So there is a 'choke' or inductive power factor correction. We take that for granted and don't think about it.
In the case of fluorescents, there is another reason: the tubes have "negative" resistance. If you connect them directly and you manage to light them, they explode.
Hmm. Reality is most people don't think about power factor at all.
No...
When I explained to the restaurant owner what he'd bought as 'power saver' he simply didn't follow and the salesman who wanted in on this became annoyed when I 'trivialized' the matter. To EEs and the like this is "Bleedin' obvious, ain't it?"
I know what power factor is, but I have difficulties understanding where the "savings" come from, for the client. It must be a commercial trickering.
If the power factor is, say, 0.8, the actual current has to increase 20% for the motor to move the same load. The resulting power is the same, but the current is not. Thus the cables have to be thicker, and the load on the electricity supply network and generators increase. Not the power, the energy used, but the resources needed to transport and generate it. Thicker cables, transformers, generators, switches. Heavier towers to support the heavier cables.
So what they do is penalize customers which do not compensate their power factor to close to one. But, if there is no penalization (and at homes they don't install equipment to measure the power factor (or reactive power)), I don't see the gain in money to the small client.
Maybe I'm missing something obvious... :-?
I may be wrong, but I think what you're missing is that if the power factor is other than 1, a standard wattmeter will read a lower value than the actual power consumed by the load. Probably the watt-hour meter on the side of the building will perform the same way, so as to cheat the electric company. It is also possible that the generator will be unhappy with the out-of- phase load. --doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/15/2015 11:22 AM, Doug wrote:
I may be wrong, but I think what you're missing is that if the power factor is other than 1, a standard wattmeter will read a lower value than the actual power consumed by the load. Probably the watt-hour meter on the side of the building will perform the same way, so as to cheat the electric company.
A power meter will read actual power, which is less than the volt amps due to power factor. So, you're paying for the power you actually use, but the power company has to pay for the current that's carried over the network, as it means larger conductors to carry the same load, when the power factor is high. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-06-15 18:26, James Knott wrote:
On 06/15/2015 11:22 AM, Doug wrote:
I may be wrong, but I think what you're missing is that if the power factor is other than 1, a standard wattmeter will read a lower value than the actual power consumed by the load. Probably the watt-hour meter on the side of the building will perform the same way, so as to cheat the electric company.
A power meter will read actual power, which is less than the volt amps due to power factor. So, you're paying for the power you actually use, but the power company has to pay for the current that's carried over the network, as it means larger conductors to carry the same load, when the power factor is high.
The thing is, I have seen small boxes sold here, small as... 3 cigaret packages? that claim to lower your power bill. I have seen them, but I had no permission to disassemble and find out what they do. The assumption is that they are power factor corrector boxes for homes. The second assumption is that the home meters are imperfect, and measure rather current than actual wattage. Thus the boxes would lower the actual current flow, with a power factor closer to 1, or 1. If this is not so, I have no idea what these gadgets do. :-? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 06/15/2015 02:13 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The thing is, I have seen small boxes sold here, small as... 3 cigaret packages? that claim to lower your power bill. I have seen them, but I had no permission to disassemble and find out what they do.
The assumption is that they are power factor corrector boxes for homes.
Before you can correct, you have to know whether the load is overall capacitive or inductive and by how much
The second assumption is that the home meters are imperfect, and measure rather current than actual wattage.
They measure power and must be accurate enough to be legal for trade.
Thus the boxes would lower the actual current flow, with a power factor closer to 1, or 1.
If this is not so, I have no idea what these gadgets do. :-?
There are motor controllers that vary the voltage to a motor. By lowering it, the power factor is reduced. On the other hand, the main purpose of those boxes might be to lighten your wallet. There have been a lot of scams over the years. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-06-15 20:47, James Knott wrote:
On 06/15/2015 02:13 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The assumption is that they are power factor corrector boxes for homes.
Before you can correct, you have to know whether the load is overall capacitive or inductive and by how much
Or adjust automatically... I know that this can be done by switching power banks, or by electronic shapers. But these things are expensive.
The second assumption is that the home meters are imperfect, and measure rather current than actual wattage.
They measure power and must be accurate enough to be legal for trade.
Here they have been electromechanical for decades. A rotating disc, with coils. Something like this: http://www.gigahertz.es/images/contador-de-corriente-altena.jpg But they have been replacing them with electronics units that support remote reading from a data center, since about five years. I think there is a mandate to do all the country, perhaps all Europe, dunno. Mine is like this one: http://www.gigahertz.es/images/contador-inteligente-sagem-cx1000-6.jpg
On the other hand, the main purpose of those boxes might be to lighten your wallet. There have been a lot of scams over the years.
Yes, that's what I think myself, but I don't know. I can't tell my friends that they were victims of a scam without knowing what these things are, and I can't know unless I open one up... -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-06-14 22:05, Felix Miata wrote:
The printer was plugged into a surge suppressing power strip plugged into the same wall socket. It was this configuration causing the UPS to squawk when the printer was powered up or awakened for a print job. I moved the printer's power cord directly to the wall socket, but the UPS squawking continues.
I have seen this. Are you on AC 110 volts? I suppose you are. On 110 volt lines the current is double that what it is at 220 (230 now) as used in Europe. And the voltage drop when connecting another load is higher, because the resistance of the cables and connectors affect it more. Say, 10 amps, and a 1 ohm resistance, means a 10 volts drop. The UPS detects the voltage drop, and squawks. For an instant, I hope, then goes silent. Just ignore it :-) Mine, on occasion, triggers the battery for half a second now and then, on mains voltage drops that are not noticeable on the room lights. It scares me a bit, but I train myself to ignore them. :-} Maybe my neighbor connected his air condition equipment. Who knows...
I'm guessing what's probably going on here is the UPS is the problem. It's old, having been subjected to countless attacks here in the lightning capital of North America, yet its battery is relatively young. Either it's over-sensitive to voltage fluctuation from laser power-up, or the 5470 is drawing excessively, possibly explaining the big recent price drop for the model, which is at least one step above the bottom of Brother's laser printer line.
If the beeping stops within a second or two, ignore it. :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlV99g4ACgkQja8UbcUWM1wuawEAjIhNwttW6infey2kiSbYMaB0 UbkPVGIUFfxltDPGeLsA+gJcasZYjlWimvetv7rz/W7dlqW6eYLMXf23xLffi7hJ =/odf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/14/2015 04:05 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
Anton Aylward composed on 2015-06-14 10:47 (UTC-0400):
Felix Miata wrote:
I'm not sure whether the 5470 is actually working as it should. Each use causes the 900VA UPS plugged into the same 15A wall receptacle as the printer to squawk when the printer starts up.
Yes it will do that. My HL5170Dn does that!
Please do not connect it though your UPS. It puts a strain on the surge protection circuitry.
You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote:
The UPS is plugging directly into the wall socket of a 15Amp circuit rarely used by anything except at this wall socket. Into the UPS are plugged cords for devices that are supported by and need to be on battery backup. Supported devices do not include laser printers.
The printer was plugged into a surge suppressing power strip plugged into the same wall socket. It was this configuration causing the UPS to squawk when the printer was powered up or awakened for a print job. I moved the printer's power cord directly to the wall socket, but the UPS squawking continues.
I'd advise putting it on a separate dedicated surge protector power bar. I can't see a printer needing to be on the UPS. It might take out the UPS and take the computer/storage down!
I've never plugged a laser printer into a UPS under this roof, probably never anywhere. IIRC, I read the installation instructions on delivery of a HP LaserJet in 1984, long enough ago to remember.
I'm guessing what's probably going on here is the UPS is the problem. It's old, having been subjected to countless attacks here in the lightning capital of North America, yet its battery is relatively young. Either it's over-sensitive to voltage fluctuation from laser power-up, or the 5470 is drawing excessively, possibly explaining the big recent price drop for the model, which is at least one step above the bottom of Brother's laser printer line.
You are overlooking something! It would be wise to hire an electrician and explain the situation to him, specifically mentioning these wall outlets. It is very possible that there is something not right in the wiring of the outlets, or some junction box along the wiring path in the house. You might very well be saving yourself and your house from a fire! I had something similar (but worse) in my house, which I found not long after I bought it. One outlet, into which I plugged an electric drill simply would not support the drill. I hired an electrician, who found a poorly made connection in the attic. (Local rules require the electric distribution in a house to be thru the attic, not thru the cellar.) I then had him check the rest of the house, and he found a number of other problems, among which was hot and neutral reversed in some outlets. I am rather sensitive to electrical problems, since a) in about 1965, my best friend was electrocuted in his home due to either a defective hi-fi system component, or a defective ground in the house wiring--I never found out for sure which it was, and three-wire house outlets were unknown in those days-- and b) I have spent most of my working life as an engineer, probably more aware of electricity in general than the average person. UL is not just an icon on a piece of hardware to me! --doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-06-15 04:12, Doug wrote:
You are overlooking something! It would be wise to hire an electrician and explain the situation to him, specifically mentioning these wall outlets. It is very possible that there is something not right in the wiring of the outlets, or some junction box along the wiring path in the house. You might very well be saving yourself and your house from a fire!
It is possible, yes.
I had something similar (but worse) in my house, which I found not long after I bought it. One outlet, into which I plugged an electric drill simply would not support the drill. I hired an electrician, who found a poorly made connection in the attic. (Local rules require the electric distribution in a house to be thru the attic, not thru the cellar.) I then had him check the rest of the house, and he found a number of other problems, among which was hot and neutral reversed in some outlets.
That's more an issue with 110V installations (USA) than with 220 installations (Europe), because the current doubles for the same power. The danger of heat in a connection doubles.
I am rather sensitive to electrical problems, since a) in about 1965, my best friend was electrocuted in his home due to either a defective hi-fi system component, or a defective ground in the house wiring--I never found out for sure which it was, and three-wire house outlets were unknown in those days-- and
The Spanish electrical code mandates all houses having a ground fault detector (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device). On residential homes it has to trigger at 30 mA in less than 50 mS. I'm surprised that the devices are not mandatory worldwide. These devices prevent most electrocution dangers. The typical assassination as seen in movies done by dropping a radio or hair dryer in a bath would not work here. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlV+OL4ACgkQja8UbcUWM1yV6QEAns4dvjGmbOhxr7aX6Huu7guY 8R64AbWQZyULUxkawrgA/23sS/lhE+jVrLbv36FH9B5UXRd+s7qbN4adnd72eVHr =WSmL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Doug composed on 2015-06-14 22:12 (UTC-0400):
Felix Miata wrote:
I'm guessing what's probably going on here is the UPS is the problem. It's old, having been subjected to countless attacks here in the lightning capital of North America, yet its battery is relatively young. Either it's over-sensitive to voltage fluctuation from laser power-up, or the 5470 is drawing excessively, possibly explaining the big recent price drop for the model, which is at least one step above the bottom of Brother's laser printer line.
You are overlooking something! It would be wise to hire an electrician and explain the situation to him, specifically mentioning these wall outlets. It is very possible that there is something not right in the wiring of the outlets, or some junction box along the wiring path in the house. You might very well be saving yourself and your house from a fire!
Probably not. My dad, a licensed electrician around that time of his life, and the contractor buddy he grew up with, built the house over 50 years ago. I've been living in it full time over 34. http://www.ebay.com/itm/181010423753 says the outlet in question is good, same as all others I've ever tried it in. Had there been a problem when a licensed electrician did my service upgrade from 60 amp and buss fuses to 100 amp and breakers 27 years ago, such problems if there were any should have been found, right? My bathroom circuit, which is on a ground fault breaker, also carries my refrigerator. I don't remember it ever tripping except by a test intending to trip it. Also FWIW, I live on waterfront. That means end of line for water, sewer, phone, cable and electric service, maximum opportunity for outage. The printer the new Brother replaced was a MF Canon laser. It never made the UPS squawk. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-06-15 05:33, Felix Miata wrote:
Doug composed on 2015-06-14 22:12 (UTC-0400):
Probably not. My dad, a licensed electrician around that time of his life, and the contractor buddy he grew up with, built the house over 50 years ago. I've been living in it full time over 34.
Copper oxidizes. And this makes a bad contact, when two wires, or wires and connectors, join. A slightly bad contact heats up just a bit, which in turn increase the speed of oxidation, which then becomes worse and worse. You notice this first by plugs becoming warm to the touch, then hot, then melting the plastic. A contact that was made 50 years ago may by now not be that good, even if it was perfect at the time. Specially if the connection is not isolated from air.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/181010423753 says the outlet in question is good,
That thing does not test for cable resistance, which is the possible issue.
same as all others I've ever tried it in. Had there been a problem when a licensed electrician did my service upgrade from 60 amp and buss fuses to 100 amp and breakers 27 years ago, such problems if there were any should have been found, right?
Not really, they develop. 100 amps... my whole house is 10 amps max, old contract. A typical modern house is about 20A here.
Also FWIW, I live on waterfront.
Does that mean near the sea, lake or river? Sorry, language barrier here. If the humidity is high, or worse, salty, the oxidation worsens.
The printer the new Brother replaced was a MF Canon laser. It never made the UPS squawk.
Means that the power surge is higher. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 06/15/2015 06:30 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
100 amps... my whole house is 10 amps max, old contract. A typical modern house is about 20A here.
Theres a MAJOR disconnect here someplace. Ten amps wouldn't run more than a couple light bulbs. The 100 amp refers to the main breaker which in turn refers to the transformer that is feeding your house. One hundred amp service is a bare minimum for a home. For a modern home you really need 200 amp service. We have one room in our house, our home office, that has the normal lines that were put in when it was built plus three more twenty amp lines that I have put in. There's an extra twenty amp line into the living room to run all the home entertainment electronics. We have 200 amp service. -- A cat is a puzzle with no solution. Cats are tiny little women in fur coats. When you get all full of yourself try giving orders to a cat. _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-06-15 15:38, Billie Walsh wrote:
On 06/15/2015 06:30 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
100 amps... my whole house is 10 amps max, old contract. A typical modern house is about 20A here.
Theres a MAJOR disconnect here someplace. Ten amps wouldn't run more than a couple light bulbs.
It is 2300 watts (230 Vac here). Yes, it is too little, but the company doesn't give me the option. It suffices for the washing machine if I power down the rest of the house.
The 100 amp refers to the main breaker which in turn refers to the transformer that is feeding your house. One hundred amp service is a bare minimum for a home. For a modern home you really need 200 amp service.
The standard here (Spain) is 20A. 50A for full electrical house heating or air conditioning (houses here are usually what you call apartments or flats). Minimum is 15A (recent installs), ie, 3,45 kW. And I assure you it suffices: washing machine, gas stove, heating and bath, microwave, freezer, and low power lights (incandescent bulbs are forbidden here). No electrical heating, but it can be used if you don't use the washing machine and the microwave at the same time ;-) And I know some old houses, pensionists, having an old 6A contract... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlV+2+gACgkQja8UbcUWM1wGfwD/Zsj/e0ZuZEv4yzF8C7O8ZUf/ Rq2DMKuh6n/d/uAF6CUA/jNqX0YvEoZcmKwjqsEAoctnRPyimSEkaJo6uXpjPRSZ =FT6U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/15/2015 09:06 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 2015-06-15 15:38, Billie Walsh wrote:
On 06/15/2015 06:30 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
100 amps... my whole house is 10 amps max, old contract. A typical modern house is about 20A here. Theres a MAJOR disconnect here someplace. Ten amps wouldn't run more than a couple light bulbs. It is 2300 watts (230 Vac here). Yes, it is too little, but the company doesn't give me the option. It suffices for the washing machine if I power down the rest of the house.
The 100 amp refers to the main breaker which in turn refers to the transformer that is feeding your house. One hundred amp service is a bare minimum for a home. For a modern home you really need 200 amp service. The standard here (Spain) is 20A. 50A for full electrical house heating or air conditioning (houses here are usually what you call apartments or flats). Minimum is 15A (recent installs), ie, 3,45 kW. And I assure you it suffices: washing machine, gas stove, heating and bath, microwave, freezer, and low power lights (incandescent bulbs are forbidden here). No electrical heating, but it can be used if you don't use the washing machine and the microwave at the same time ;-)
And I know some old houses, pensionists, having an old 6A contract...
The room I'm in right now, our "home office" [ mom called it the room of death - one more piece of equipment and the whole house explodes ] has two half racks of servers and satellite receivers, five desktop computers that run pretty much 24/7A forty inch television [ for television ] [ complete with DVD, blueray, surround sound and satellite TV receiver ], A 47 inch TV used as a monitor on one server [ two actually but they are interconnected so ], assorted other monitors/tv's and associated electronics. We have a dedicated window AC just for this room to keep it from melting down. Your whole service wouldn't run this room. *<]:oD -- A cat is a puzzle with no solution. Cats are tiny little women in fur coats. When you get all full of yourself try giving orders to a cat. _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/15/2015 10:06 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The standard here (Spain) is 20A. 50A for full electrical house
The more I read your posts, the greater my impression that things are really strange in Spain. In North America, a 100A service is typical and many have more. This is the 240/120V split phase system, so that high power loads have 240V available, but most devices run on 120. One advantage with this system is when the loads are balanced, the neutral wire "disappears". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-06-15 18:22, James Knott wrote:
On 06/15/2015 10:06 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The standard here (Spain) is 20A. 50A for full electrical house
The more I read your posts, the greater my impression that things are really strange in Spain. In North America, a 100A service is typical and many have more. This is the 240/120V split phase system, so that high power loads have 240V available, but most devices run on 120. One advantage with this system is when the loads are balanced, the neutral wire "disappears".
Here it is three phases, at 400V. On a building, only the elevator would use that. Domestic users get only one of the phases, and the neutral, at 230 (Spain was 220, UK and some others 240. Now all are supposed to be 230). If loads balance, the neutral carries none or little current. I haven't seen that 240/120 split phase system here (I know what it is, I have lived in Canada some time). My house is old and doesn't have heating; I just have two gas stoves, and some small (500W) electric heaters, but never more than two rooms at a time. My 10A/230V supply is exceptionally low (but I have seen less, 5 or 6 A). Typical would be 15A/230V. Higher voltage means that a "Residual-current device" is mandatory for the entire house. See pictures here http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interruptor_diferencial Modern houses typically have ducted gas (with hot water convectors and pipes distributing the heat http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiador_%28calefacci%C3%B3n%29). Many houses use diesel fuel, some coal, some wood pellets. The same system can be used for the bath hot water. If there is no gas/oil house heating, the typical alternative is a an insulated water accumulator, heated electrically, with an element inside the water (scary, eh? LOL). This is what I have: http://www.leroymerlin.es/fp/13627642/termo-electrico-tnc_vertical?pathFamil.... It is 1200W, 50 litres of hot water (max 90°C), but there are units sold of 200 litres. And in my case, I have a diode connected in series, so that I halved the power to 600W. Sure, takes longer to heat up. No problem :-) Many kitchens use gas (bottled, like me, or via pipes). The traditional electric cooker that I have seen in Canada is almost unknown here. The modern "in" thing since years is to use "vitroceramic" (maybe the translation is incorrect - http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocina_vitrocer%C3%A1mica). But the real cool thing is to have an "induction cooker": heat is generated directly on the metal recipients, the surface of the stove is cold. They are expensive, but use quite very little electricity. All that means that the typical electrical (peak) load here is lower. And then, as all devices run at 230 volts, the current used is half than in north America. There are exceptions, of course. The entire house could use electric heating. I have friends that do, and they may have 50 amps or more. But the typical house here is a "flat" or apartment, not a "detached" house, so smaller volume. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 06/15/2015 01:57 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Here it is three phases, at 400V. On a building, only the elevator would use that. Domestic users get only one of the phases, and the neutral, at 230 (Spain was 220, UK and some others 240. Now all are supposed to be 230). If loads balance, the neutral carries none or little current. I haven't seen that 240/120 split phase system here (I know what it is, I have lived in Canada some time).
The power system here is also 3ø, with one home connected to one phase, but that phase is split with a transformer to provide 240/120V as described earlier. Large buildings & industry get all 3 phases. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-06-15 20:42, James Knott wrote:
On 06/15/2015 01:57 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The power system here is also 3ø, with one home connected to one phase, but that phase is split with a transformer to provide 240/120V as described earlier. Large buildings & industry get all 3 phases.
Yes, I know. It is a peculiar system used in USA and Canada, maybe other places that are nominally 120 V. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Nice discussion but, And in my case, I have a diode connected in series, so that I halved the power to 600W. Not correct 0,5I x 0,5U = 0.25 power it takes 4 times longer to heat. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/17/2015 02:09 AM, Hans de Faber wrote:
Nice discussion but,
And in my case, I have a diode connected in series, so that I halved the power to 600W.
Not correct 0,5I x 0,5U = 0.25 power it takes 4 times longer to heat.
If you're making the calculation I thing you are (What is U? Do you mean V?), then it is indeed 1/2, as time is now a factor. By using the diode, you're cutting the duty cycle in half (approximately). You're also generating significant noise on the line. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-06-17 13:51, James Knott wrote:
On 06/17/2015 02:09 AM, Hans de Faber wrote:
Not correct 0,5I x 0,5U = 0.25 power it takes 4 times longer to heat.
If you're making the calculation I thing you are (What is U? Do you mean V?), then it is indeed 1/2, as time is now a factor. By using the diode, you're cutting the duty cycle in half (approximately). You're also generating significant noise on the line.
Yes, it is half duty cycle. Power is half, I measured it. There is noise, yes, but it does not seem to have adverse effects, and I need it (halving the power). I have seen the same trick on commercially sold devices, so I went ahead. If you want to continue the discussion on offtopic mail list, I'll be happy to do so, but tell me first so that I have time to subscribe. I'm not there at present, and there is no archive. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 06/15/2015 06:38 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:
On 06/15/2015 06:30 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
100 amps... my whole house is 10 amps max, old contract. A typical modern house is about 20A here.
Theres a MAJOR disconnect here someplace. Ten amps wouldn't run more than a couple light bulbs.
The 100 amp refers to the main breaker which in turn refers to the transformer that is feeding your house. One hundred amp service is a bare minimum for a home. For a modern home you really need 200 amp service.
We have one room in our house, our home office, that has the normal lines that were put in when it was built plus three more twenty amp lines that I have put in. There's an extra twenty amp line into the living room to run all the home entertainment electronics. We have 200 amp service.
Billie: Is your main breaker two 100-amp ganged-together breakers? That's what we have here, 240-VAC service with a 100-amp breaker on each leg. We get 120-VAC from each hot leg to neutral. Carlos: You implied that you have no choice in the matter of how much current you get. You mention a contract. How long does the contract run? On expiration, could you contract for more wattage if you choose? Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-06-15 16:32, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
Carlos: You implied that you have no choice in the matter of how much current you get. You mention a contract. How long does the contract run? On expiration, could you contract for more wattage if you choose?
It doesn't expire as long as I pay ;-) No, I can not contract more, because the house is old and doesn't fulfill the current regulations to the letter. I would like to have 15A, that would suffice my needs. More, if I wanted to switch the cooking range to electrical, but it is gas. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlV+5TgACgkQja8UbcUWM1zyQAD/aAm9XxGGou5gL/zIyCzC3CqY Gs1xpLMe2rhF3B6RiqkBAJqrkHANhztMttt7VFKbjgoYivsiKe67xJoeb0gqbMFz =bGR+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/15/2015 09:32 AM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
Billie: Is your main breaker two 100-amp ganged-together breakers? That's what we have here, 240-VAC service with a 100-amp breaker on each leg. We get 120-VAC from each hot leg to neutral.
Exactly -- A cat is a puzzle with no solution. Cats are tiny little women in fur coats. When you get all full of yourself try giving orders to a cat. _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/15/2015 09:38 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:
On 06/15/2015 06:30 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
100 amps... my whole house is 10 amps max, old contract. A typical modern house is about 20A here.
Theres a MAJOR disconnect here someplace. Ten amps wouldn't run more than a couple light bulbs.
The 100 amp refers to the main breaker which in turn refers to the transformer that is feeding your house. One hundred amp service is a bare minimum for a home. For a modern home you really need 200 amp service.
We have one room in our house, our home office, that has the normal lines that were put in when it was built plus three more twenty amp lines that I have put in. There's an extra twenty amp line into the living room to run all the home entertainment electronics. We have 200 amp service.
I agree that 20 Amps is insufficient for a house, but remember that the OP is apparently in Spain, with 220 Volt service, so he may need only 100 Amp service, or possibly he might have 50 Amp service, which would be equivalent to 100 A in the USA. I bit shy of what is needed in this day and age, but there are lots of houses in the US where there is only 100 Amp service. --doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/15/2015 11:30 AM, Doug wrote:
or possibly he might have 50 Amp service, which would be equivalent to 100 A in the U
That is incorrect. The NA system uses a split phase system, where you have 100A either side of neutral. This is exactly the same amount of power as with a single phase 240V system as used in Europe. The only difference is with the NA system, you can have different currents in the 2 "hot" wires, with the difference carried by the neutral. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. composed on 2015-06-15 13:30 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata wrote:
Probably not. My dad, a licensed electrician around that time of his life, and the contractor buddy he grew up with, built the house over 50 years ago. I've been living in it full time over 34.
Copper oxidizes. And this makes a bad contact, when two wires, or wires and connectors, join. A slightly bad contact heats up just a bit, which in turn increase the speed of oxidation, which then becomes worse and worse. You notice this first by plugs becoming warm to the touch, then hot, then melting the plastic.
A contact that was made 50 years ago may by now not be that good, even if it was perfect at the time. Specially if the connection is not isolated from air.
House 50. Receptacles 22. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Storm_of_the_Century put water up to doorknobs, so all below that level had to be changed at that time. I opened up this one to look today, because most I changed from ivory to white at the time in part to help me track which got done or not, and this was ivory. Connections here were nice and tight and copper and plating shiny, but I changed it to a new white one anyway. Printer is still squawking about half the time, the rest of the times just its relays clacking. Maybe the printer needs some break-in time to draw less initially. :-p
http://www.ebay.com/itm/181010423753 says the outlet in question is good,
That thing does not test for cable resistance, which is the possible issue.
same as all others I've ever tried it in. Had there been a problem when a licensed electrician did my service upgrade from 60 amp and buss fuses to 100 amp and breakers 27 years ago, such problems if there were any should have been found, right?
Not really, they develop.
100 amps... my whole house is 10 amps max, old contract. A typical modern house is about 20A here.
I misremembered. I had upgraded from 120 amp to 200 amp (paired 100A main breakers).
Also FWIW, I live on waterfront.
Does that mean near the sea, lake or river? Sorry, language barrier
Yes. At least part of property boundary touches (usually navigable) water. In this case it's a river close enough to gulf to have occasional salty tide backflow, depending on wind, tidal strength and springs volume.
here. If the humidity is high, or worse, salty, the oxidation worsens.
Humidity is higher than average, but kept reasonable indoors by geothermal heat pump system.
The printer the new Brother replaced was a MF Canon laser. It never made the UPS squawk.
Means that the power surge is higher.
Which could be defect and cause to return it, hence the sub-thread question. I have a new UPS on the way. If the printer does cause the new and/or others to do the same, I may pursue the subject with Brother instead of ignoring it. I don't do a lot of printing, the relays don't bother me, and the beeps don't always happen. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-06-16 04:14, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2015-06-15 13:30 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata wrote:
Connections here were nice and tight and copper and plating shiny,
That's good. You should also review... how do you call it? Cable joints, perhaps, from the socket to the main entry to the house of the cables.
but I changed it to a new white one anyway. Printer is still squawking about half the time, the rest of the times just its relays clacking. Maybe the printer needs some break-in time to draw less initially. :-p
Is the printer that complains, or is it the UPS in the other line? Mind, I said my UPS complains occasionally here, too. I don't pay much attention to it. One of my TV sets, a small one in the kitchen, LG brand, complains when I switch the fluorescent tube in there. Volume mutes for half a second. The thing is too sensitive to spikes. Other TV sets do not notice. Your UPS spike protection circuitry might be oversensitive.
100 amps... my whole house is 10 amps max, old contract. A typical modern house is about 20A here.
I misremembered. I had upgraded from 120 amp to 200 amp (paired 100A main breakers).
LOL.
Also FWIW, I live on waterfront.
Does that mean near the sea, lake or river? Sorry, language barrier
Yes. At least part of property boundary touches (usually navigable) water. In this case it's a river close enough to gulf to have occasional salty tide backflow, depending on wind, tidal strength and springs volume.
here. If the humidity is high, or worse, salty, the oxidation worsens.
Humidity is higher than average, but kept reasonable indoors by geothermal heat pump system.
Still... that's bad for cable junctions.
The printer the new Brother replaced was a MF Canon laser. It never made the UPS squawk.
Means that the power surge is higher.
Which could be defect and cause to return it, hence the sub-thread question. I have a new UPS on the way. If the printer does cause the new and/or others to do the same, I may pursue the subject with Brother instead of ignoring it. I don't do a lot of printing, the relays don't bother me, and the beeps don't always happen.
Well, you can ask them, sure. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlV/jLIACgkQja8UbcUWM1zphAD+LSUZo8O8x85CO8yqWTjmL3Vk EVMCp+RIZKwyoJ8apuUA/Rbu85rsf14SiFUEzTITj/y28YvlEd4cZ8p81vpPw95C =LCJm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata composed on 2015-06-15 22:14 (UTC-0400):
The printer the new Brother replaced was a MF Canon laser. It never made the UPS squawk.
Means that the power surge is higher.
Which could be defect and cause to return it, hence the sub-thread question. I have a new UPS on the way. If the printer does cause the new and/or others to do the same, I may pursue the subject with Brother instead of ignoring it. I don't do a lot of printing, the relays don't bother me, and the beeps don't always happen.
Old UPS has been repurposed elsewhere. New UPS has yet to show affect by printer. Until Friday, HL-5470DW printer was otherwise flawless. Friday I needed to pack up an RMA and get it off to a Fedex drop station late in the after noon. For this I had enough time, but when it was almost ready, I went to fedex.com to create the prepaid shipping label, and Firefox 38 (in 13.1) errored the printer, repeatedly. As a workaround, I got Firefox to view only the label image, saved it to disk, then tried to open it in either a different Firefox or KPDF (I already forgot which), and it refused. Luckily, Konq3 opened (although there was obviously something strange about it, displaying on screen with a shade over the entire viewport) and printed it, but by the time I got to that point, over half an hour had been wasted. When I got to the drop off station, last Friday pickup was past, so I had to drive an extra 24 miles to Fedex itself in order to avoid losing 3 extra days in shipping. :-( Has anyone else seen such behavior from a popular web browser trying to print a shipping label? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-06-21 19:46, Felix Miata wrote:
Has anyone else seen such behavior from a popular web browser trying to print a shipping label?
It was a PDF? Well, support for displaying PDFs in Linux is incomplete. Some PDFs only work in acrobat, and they no longer make a Linux version. And if you were using the internal pdf viewer that firefox used, that is even more problematic. Try any of the externals: evince, kpdf, etc. On the other hand, the postscript generated by acrobat is sometimes faulty. I use: ps2ps p.ps p2.ps which generates a huge file, which then works fine on linux tools. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. composed on 2015-06-21 22:36 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata wrote:
Has anyone else seen such behavior from a popular web browser trying to print a shipping label?
It was a PDF?
Dunno. The saved 2-color image opened in Konq as PNG.
Well, support for displaying PDFs in Linux is incomplete. Some PDFs only work in acrobat, and they no longer make a Linux version. And if you were using the internal pdf viewer that firefox used, that is even more problematic. Try any of the externals: evince, kpdf, etc.
On the other hand, the postscript generated by acrobat is sometimes faulty. I use:
ps2ps p.ps p2.ps
which generates a huge file, which then works fine on linux tools. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/15/2015 07:30 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Copper oxidizes. And this makes a bad contact, when two wires, or wires and connectors, join. A slightly bad contact heats up just a bit, which in turn increase the speed of oxidation, which then becomes worse and worse. You notice this first by plugs becoming warm to the touch, then hot, then melting the plastic.
Actually, you've just describe a problem with aluminum wire. Copper oxide is actually a fairly decent conductor, well semi-conductor, so that problem doesn't occur that much. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 6/15/15 7:23 PM, James Knott wrote:
On 06/15/2015 07:30 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Copper oxidizes. And this makes a bad contact, when two wires, or wires and connectors, join. A slightly bad contact heats up just a bit, which in turn increase the speed of oxidation, which then becomes worse and worse. You notice this first by plugs becoming warm to the touch, then hot, then melting the plastic.
Actually, you've just describe a problem with aluminum wire. Copper oxide is actually a fairly decent conductor, well semi-conductor, so that problem doesn't occur that much.
His corrosion issue may not be copper oxide, but a mix of various copper sulfate, chloride, or chloride salts, which turn the wire green. That is less conductive. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-06-16 04:34, Tony Alfrey wrote:
On 6/15/15 7:23 PM, James Knott wrote:
His corrosion issue may not be copper oxide, but a mix of various copper sulfate, chloride, or chloride salts, which turn the wire green. That is less conductive.
Yes, the green one. I have seen the plastic in the plug of a stove or heater melt away due to bad connection between the cable and the plug. And the issue was worse in the period when I lived in an old place in Madrid with 110 volts AC than at home, with 220V. When I opened the things I saw that green oxide or salts or whatever. Oxide, acting as semiconductor, causes a voltage drop of at least 0.1..0.2 volts. At 10 amps, that's 1..2 watts, that heat up the connection. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlV/jkgACgkQja8UbcUWM1yiEQEAkxT8ng88a31xb3AxrVmYPet+ k4uo0wBtLa0taqF9VcAA/1ruTF36ke2Ng+2CTvxbrhb4Z/AwwHRdCqwdbcr6Vn4W =5x6i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/15/2015 10:47 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Oxide, acting as semiconductor, causes a voltage drop of at least 0.1..0.2 volts. At 10 amps, that's 1..2 watts, that heat up the connection.
Ultimately, al electrical losses manifest as heat. Somewhere. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Anton Aylward
On 06/15/2015 10:47 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Oxide, acting as semiconductor, causes a voltage drop of at least 0.1..0.2 volts. At 10 amps, that's 1..2 watts, that heat up the connection.
Ultimately, al electrical losses manifest as heat. Somewhere.
Probably a *great* time to end this diversion from the thread, or move it to off-topic. While the information is/was interesting, it *really* does not belong here and merely contributes to the reasons dev's don't frequent. It is becoming a "chat room". -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-06-14 16:47, Anton Aylward wrote:
I'd advise putting it on a separate dedicated surge protector power bar.
Mmmm...
I can't see a printer needing to be on the UPS. It might take out the UPS and take the computer/storage down!
Yes.
I have my printer on a completely separate power circuit. Separate wiring from the house's main switch pane; separate fuse/trip. The surge protector has nothing else connected.
I have seen problems with this. If the "ground" is not at the same voltage on both sides (and I have seen this happen), when connecting the data cables (network, usb, parallel port, whatever) there can be issues. There can be errors, like a 1 or a 0 not being read correctly because the ground is not zero. I have seen connecting the printer parallel port to a computer, and one of them having a faulty ground, to cause sparks. Yep, little sparks, that were enough to fry the port circuitry on the motherboard (we had to locate and buy a port card) Thus I connect everything in my computer rack to the same exact house cable, the same surge protector. No issues at all, it is within the ratings. But not on the UPS. The UPS complains because the load (specially at the start) is more that what the battery can supply, even on a big UPS. Some UPS have a different socket for the printer: it is not backed by the battery, but both are on the same circuit, to avoid problem with grounding. It was a known issue, specially with parallel ports; not so much with twisted pair ethernet, it seems. I think it was an issue with coax ethernet, though. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlV987sACgkQja8UbcUWM1ymQwD+MFXA9JROeQvDKQ5gbVryuY4s 20V4nhX7X1hj7gd7sdAA/36tb2jPTVaPmfi4QtbjOngib4velWKlfCjvgoKWUQXg =7TLa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 05/26/2015 11:45 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
Anton Aylward composed on 2015-05-26 10:03 (UTC-0400):
On 05/26/2015 03:01 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
Anyone own a laser Brother MF of any type, and know if it, or any Brothers, support the Epson 9-pin (FX, IIRC) printer language, as Brothers of yore (all?/mostly?) did. Something no HP ever did AFAIK, and AFAIK no Canon ever did, was support the printer language I learned when Lotus 1-2-3 was at v1.0.
My Brother laser printer supports FX-80 and FX-850.
Please provide model numbers so I can have him look up to prove such exist.
Mine is a HL5170DN. Its old now; I don't know if its still produced. Tonight I'll see it if can digest your file :-)
I have Brother on phone. Rep is no help so far.
I've rarely if ever found tech support any use. perhaps I'm overly diligent in research but I usually end up knowing more than they do. Granted, though, tech support is usually a low end job often not given to people with technical excellence and/or good social skills. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 26/05/2015 18:29, Anton Aylward a écrit :
Tonight I'll see it if can digest your file :-)
this don't seems to be a printable file, but a binary one Felix, do you still have a running instance of quattro? jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 05/26/2015 12:32 PM, jdd wrote:
Le 26/05/2015 18:29, Anton Aylward a écrit :
Tonight I'll see it if can digest your file :-)
this don't seems to be a printable file, but a binary one
Your point being? if I print an image as a PDF in raw mode what goes downstream to the printer is 'binary'. in fact many pdf and postscript files are wrappers around a binary blob. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 26/05/2015 18:43, Anton Aylward a écrit :
if I print an image as a PDF in raw mode what goes downstream to the printer is 'binary'.
usually, old dos files printable where plain ASCII, with said "escape codes" (also ASCII) to send commands to the printer. But I wonder if the wq! file is really a quattro pro source file, because corel sees it but do not give a usable result Fali, do you have any wq1 (or 2) file? I could make corel office run on Windows 7, as windows XP and running on VirtualBox (very slow) there is also a converter here http://abc-amber-quattro-pro-converter.en.softonic.com/download#downloading but do not seems to like the file. do not open wq!, asks for wq1 jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-05-26 18:43, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 05/26/2015 12:32 PM, jdd wrote:
Le 26/05/2015 18:29, Anton Aylward a écrit :
Tonight I'll see it if can digest your file :-)
this don't seems to be a printable file, but a binary one
Your point being?
You need Quatro Pro to open the file, then print from it. You can not print the file as is. To test if your printer can print Felix's files, he has to print it, but capture the output on a file, and then send this file to you. Then you send that file, raw, to the printer. There was a small utility from pcmag, prn2cap perhaps, that captured print output from programs that refused to print to file. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF0EAREIAAYFAlVkus8ACgkQja8UbcUWM1zI9AD8C9BfuhEoE4vrjBSPGvuPoIks 7GvcfMdveFomrgm+j7AA+Ofo1aP84a71VWE4nn9fINQOeKc6AhdzXkjgWS59edA= =Wgc9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. composed on 2015-05-26 20:26 (UTC+0200):
Your point being?
You need Quatro Pro to open the file, then print from it. You can not print the file as is.
To test if your printer can print Felix's files, he has to print it, but capture the output on a file, and then send this file to you. Then you send that file, raw, to the printer.
To what end? QPD can print to file, but that file excludes everything other than text. If I was to capture output intended for the text printer as the file was saved, it would include ASCII characters plus Epson escape codes, nothing like PS or any PCL, so would just make a mess unless sent to a printer supporting Epson FX emulation reading the codes rather than any sort of bitmap. To send to a graphics printer would require I strip out all the Epson FX printer codes first, leaving none of the formatting that makes the content make sense in printed form, such as actually fitting on a sheet of printer paper. Most of what I have and still use is built for 132 fixed pitch (monospace) characters on screen, and 132 fixed pitch columns by 88 rows on 8.5"X11" portrait paper, the only paper orientation option for FX printers.
There was a small utility from pcmag, prn2cap perhaps, that captured print output from programs that refused to print to file.
I think I remember building that one, among others, typing from that read in the magazine into DEBUG, and only later managing to get the already built binaries on a CD via a magazine offer of some kind, probably subscription renewal. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-05-27 12:09, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2015-05-26 20:26 (UTC+0200):
Your point being?
You need Quatro Pro to open the file, then print from it. You can not print the file as is.
To test if your printer can print Felix's files, he has to print it, but capture the output on a file, and then send this file to you. Then you send that file, raw, to the printer.
To what end?
Find out if Anton's printer prints it, ie, if it has Esc codes emulation (Epson printer language).
There was a small utility from pcmag, prn2cap perhaps, that captured print output from programs that refused to print to file.
I think I remember building that one, among others, typing from that read in the magazine into DEBUG, and only later managing to get the already built binaries on a CD via a magazine offer of some kind, probably subscription renewal.
I some how got the assembler "compiler", but else I typed it, I think. I also typed the editor "ted". You could use a modem and download it from the magazine BBS, but I had no modem, no phone of my own (student in a residence), and even if I had, it was a cross-atlantic phone call. Thus, type! -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Felix, do you still have quattro available? I wonder if it could export document to xls, for example? the file you publish is not readable. It's extension (wq!)is special, may be it's a compressed file! http://www.file-extensions.org/wq!-file-extension jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-05-26 09:01, Felix Miata wrote:
Mailing lists have been so low in volume I've wondered if it's the USA holiday, broken internet, a fluke, or something else. I'm a subscriber to over 70 mailing lists. Mondays are usually the busiest day of the week, typically well over 500 inbound. This one was no more than half normal for a Monday, across the board.
Because of this:
I only bought it because right on the box it had "Linux" in its supported OS list. Little idea did I have what that really meant - never again Canon.
Same here. The hardware is reasonably good, but the not supported by the community is terrible. Some items have been reverse engineered, some half work.
Anyone own a laser Brother MF of any type, and know if it, or any Brothers, support the Epson 9-pin (FX, IIRC) printer language, as Brothers of yore (all?/mostly?) did. Something no HP ever did AFAIK, and AFAIK no Canon ever did, was support the printer language I learned when Lotus 1-2-3 was at v1.0. I still have spreadsheets with embedded printer codes.
My old Canon BJC 4000 did. In fact, we installed that a lot for clients because it supported the old ESC codes for 9 pin graphics. We sold some MsDos software (in basic!) and we were not keen on re-developing it all because of the printer. I don't know if they still make any model from that series. If you use software that prints using that mode directly, Linux support is irrelevant, but that printer is supported well by TurboPrint, a commercial setup that sells cups compatible drivers for a number of printers. And not expensive. What was terribly expensive was the ink cartridges.
I would *like* to be able to print some of them on occasion without having to dig an Epson-supported parallel port dot matrix printer out of the cobwebs, rejuvenate its ribbon, boot DOS, and wait 10 minutes per page in order to get pseudo-satisfactory printer output of the plain text, plus Epson printer control codes (font selection, margin, page length, etc.), that they contain.
Mmm. Can't you choose another driver in that old software? Many of that supported the original hp laserjet, which did postscript if I remember right; so a modern printer would do. Or view in Linux with several programs, then print to anything. On some old MsDos software I told it to print to a plotter file. You know, those things with moving pens. I had a translator from plotter language to several printers.
Converting the spreadsheet themselves is not a practical option, because they are Quattro Pro for DOS native format,
That thing should have printer drivers. I used it a bit. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. composed on 2015-05-26 16:23 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata wrote:
I would *like* to be able to print some of them on occasion without having to dig an Epson-supported parallel port dot matrix printer out of the cobwebs, rejuvenate its ribbon, boot DOS, and wait 10 minutes per page in order to get pseudo-satisfactory printer output of the plain text, plus Epson printer control codes (font selection, margin, page length, etc.), that they contain.
Mmm.
Can't you choose another driver in that old software?
Felix Miata composed on 2015-05-26 07:41 (UTC-0400): "I'm not interested in rewriting a whole library of spreadsheets with a new printer language. I'm too old to try learning another, or figuring out how to translate what's in them to something else."
Many of that supported the original hp laserjet, which did postscript ...
I've already learned all the languages I'm ever going to learn. PS and HP were not among them. My hundreds of spreadsheets have Epson control codes embedded. That's how they will stay, not a task I could handle even if I wanted to.
Converting the spreadsheet themselves is not a practical option, because they are Quattro Pro for DOS native format,
That thing should have printer drivers. I used it a bit.
The only suitable ones here are Epson. Based upon what Anton wrote, my priority seems to be to ensure I don't manage to choose a Brother that does not support Epson printer codes. I read somewhere long ago that one had to get beyond a price point or something in order to have Epson support included (IOW, not all Brothers include Epson, while Epson makes no laser MF printers). -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2015-05-26 16:55, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2015-05-26 16:23 (UTC+0200):
Can't you choose another driver in that old software?
Felix Miata composed on 2015-05-26 07:41 (UTC-0400): "I'm not interested in rewriting a whole library of spreadsheets with a new printer language. I'm too old to try learning another, or figuring out how to translate what's in them to something else."
I'm not telling you to rewrite anything. Quattro surely used print drivers, as did all MsDOS programs. You simply choose a different driver from the limited, small or big, list. Maybe you will need the original disk.
I've already learned all the languages I'm ever going to learn. PS and HP were not among them. My hundreds of spreadsheets have Epson control codes embedded. That's how they will stay, not a task I could handle even if I wanted to.
You embedded the codes in the cells? Inside? That's a nightmare! Oh, my. If that's so, your only possibility is finding a printer that supports that language (no matter the price), or a program that reads that printed file and converts it to something else. Which is not impossible, because I did something of the sort on another life. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 05/26/2015 11:03 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I've already learned all the languages I'm ever going to learn. PS and HP were not among them. My hundreds of spreadsheets have Epson control codes embedded. That's how they will stay, not a task I could handle even if I wanted to. You embedded the codes in the cells? Inside? That's a nightmare! Oh, my.
If that's so, your only possibility is finding a printer that supports that language (no matter the price), or a program that reads that printed file and converts it to something else. Which is not impossible, because I did something of the sort on another life.
OUCH!!! The long suppressed geek in me rose and suggested perl for that, since it can chew on binary sequences. Give it the patterns and it can seek them out, parameters and all, and either remove them cell-by-cell or mutate them to something else. I try to keep that perl-geek suppressed for very good reasons. best illustrated: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/automation.png "... in another life" is right! -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-05-26 17:22, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 05/26/2015 11:03 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I try to keep that perl-geek suppressed for very good reasons. best illustrated: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/automation.png
ROTFL! :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlVkly4ACgkQja8UbcUWM1xc3AD/YWl1vIHgFE8VEcfZm5HeHI7A RnASPGp3gE9hk0toZ+UA/0Z02jGaPisd1ueZ4RBLsQ2HHJY67Py6IxCiwYTGURfp =Ea2k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
There may be no way to get all I want from Brother: 1-fits available space 2-copier/scanner too 3-Epson emulation 4-laser Current models from Brother all omit at least one from the above list. So, apparently I'll have to give up the idea of Laser. That opens up the possibility of buying Epson to get Epson FX/LQ emulation. Looking through what local stores have in stock, XP-820 would seem to be a candidate. So I looked online, and am not thrilled with information available: 1: Epson's online XP-820 manual's search box produces no hits for "emulation". 2: https://files.support.epson.com/docid/cpd4/cpd40988.pdf produces no hits for "emulation". 3: http://www.openprinting.org/printer/Epson/Epson-XP-820 calls it a paperweight. 4: http://download.ebz.epson.net/dsc/search/01/search/searchModule does list a downloadable Linux driver and a Linux printer utility, plus two hits re scanning for the XP-820. 5: The string "Linux" seems to be missing from all product descriptions and specifications on Epson's web site and the printer boxes I read in the stores. 6: Searching for "DOS" on Epson's web site produces only hits for technical support docs, none for products, at least among the first dozen pages of hits. 7: Searching for "emulation" on Epson's web site produces mostly hits for technical support docs, none that seem to be for MF products, at least among the first 20 or so pages of hits. Before I try getting help from Epson over the phone: A: Does anyone here have anything to say about Epson under Linux generally, good or bad? B: Does openSUSE's epson-inkjet-printer-escpr (ESC/P-R) rpm have any direct relationship to supporting FX or LQ emulation? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESC/P seems to provide a qualified yes.) I've not yet ruled out Brother. I'd still rather based on reputation in Linux, if I could find a suitable model. In fact, I've been given an opportunity to acquire a new with box but otherwise unused Brother MFC-420CN that a close friend paid around $350 for 8 years ago (at my direction), for $100, but it does does not do any kind of emulation. http://www.brother-usa.com/MFC/ModelDetail/4/MFC420CN/spec OTOH, http://www.brother-usa.com/MFC/ModelDetail/4/MFC8510DN/spec might actually fit. This all makes my head swim in confusion. :-( -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 31/05/2015 22:08, Felix Miata a écrit :
There may be no way to get all I want from Brother:
1-fits available space 2-copier/scanner too 3-Epson emulation 4-laser
possibility of buying Epson to get Epson FX/LQ emulation. Looking through
do not search for emulation but for actual printer? http://www.ebay.fr/itm/Epson-C11C524026-FX-890-6270CPS-2X9-PIN-80COL-1-5-COPY-PUSH-FE-UK-/381179057275?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item58c00ad47b a bit expensive though... may be second hand? http://www.epson.fr/fr/fr/viewcon/corporatesite/products/mainunits/overview/... may be you can still find a pharmacy with such printer that could help you :-) http://www.amazon.fr/Epson-LX-350-Imprimante-matricielle-impact/dp/B00AC3S18... easy to find on "leboncoin" or any similar site on your country http://www.leboncoin.fr/informatique/758224598.htm?ca=16_s €80... jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
jdd composed on 2015-05-31 23:02 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata composed:
There may be no way to get all I want from Brother:
1-fits available space 2-copier/scanner too 3-Epson emulation 4-laser
possibility of buying Epson to get Epson FX/LQ emulation. Looking through
do not search for emulation but for actual printer?
I suspect there is no such thing is a pin printer that is also a copier/scanner. I have no interest in another pin printer. I am interested in a modern printer that supports an antique (Epson) printer control language (e.g. FX* or LQ*). http://support.brother.com/g/s/id/htmldoc/mfc/dcp8070d/encn/html/sug/chapter... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESC/P -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 05/31/2015 05:52 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
jdd composed on 2015-05-31 23:02 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata composed:
There may be no way to get all I want from Brother:
1-fits available space 2-copier/scanner too 3-Epson emulation 4-laser
Probably not what you want to hear but you might be ablr to create your own filter: https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Using_Your_Own_Filters_to_Print_with_CUPS Just a thought. We do have a printing guru that might be able to steer you in the right direction. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/01/2015 08:48 AM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
Probably not what you want to hear but you might be ablr to create your own filter:
https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Using_Your_Own_Filters_to_Print_with_CUPS
There are times I think that we should have stuck with the model of the old UNIX SVR4 queue manager. Sometimes queue systems in UNIX were "good enough" and things that were designed or redesigned were a bit gratuitous. People forget that UUCICO was transport mechanism and not an e-mail mechanisms. I recall that I did a 'quick and dirty' using it that (should have) avoided the need for spending mucho$$ on a MQ system (but didn't because the project manager knew mainframes better than he knew UNIX although we weren't using mainframes and were using UNIX). Another time I used the queueing system of Postfix to do 'not email queueing". An early version of AIX had a "queue manager subsystem" that, for the short duration of that release, handled email queueing, printer queueing and a few other things to do with job submission, before things were then "done properly". (Shades of 'systemd' in the 1980s?) Hm. Come to think of it, systemd, might well be able to handle print job queueing and filtering ... -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (13)
-
Anton Aylward -
Billie Walsh -
Carlos E. R. -
Doug -
Felix Miata -
Hans de Faber -
James Knott -
jdd -
Ken Schneider - openSUSE -
Lew Wolfgang -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Tony Alfrey