On 2020-11-10 19:19, David Haller wrote:

Now I need one rule like this (for this list) for each of the 11 lists

I'm subscribed to:

Just one rule is needed. Add more uniq id inside () if you want. I just use this because I'm lazy. * ^List-Id.*(opensuse) But you can have more specific id like this: * ^List-Id.*(users.lists.opensuse.org|opensuse-factory.lists.opensuse.org) I don't know what the factory list id gonna be but you get the idea. -- /bengan

On 11/10/20 1:01 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

But you can have more specific id like this:

* ^List-Id.*(users.lists.opensuse.org opensuse-factory.lists.opensuse.org) I don't know what the factory list id gonna be but you get the idea. factory.lists.opensuse.org

last post I see is 11/9 -- so it has gone quite. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.

On 10/11/2020 19.43, Bengt Gördén wrote:

On 2020-11-10 19:19, David Haller wrote:

...

Now I need one rule like this (for this list) for each of the 11 lists

...

I'm subscribed to:

Just one rule is needed. Add more uniq id inside () if you want. I just use this because I'm lazy.

* ^List-Id.*(opensuse)

But you can have more specific id like this:

* ^List-Id.*(users.lists.opensuse.org|opensuse-factory.lists.opensuse.org)

Something like this might work: * ^List-Id.*((users.|opensuse-factory.)lists.opensuse.org)

I don't know what the factory list id gonna be but you get the idea.

-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On Tue, 10 Nov 2020 21:00:02 +0100 David Haller wrote:

Hello,

On Tue, 10 Nov 2020, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 10/11/2020 19.43, Bengt Gördén wrote:

...

On 2020-11-10 19:19, David Haller wrote:

...

Now I need one rule like this (for this list) for each of the 11 lists

...

I'm subscribed to:

Just one rule is needed. Add more uniq id inside () if you want. I just use this because I'm lazy.

* ^List-Id.*(opensuse)

But you can have more specific id like this:

* ^List-Id.*(users.lists.opensuse.org|opensuse-factory.lists.opensuse.org)

Something like this might work:

* ^List-Id.*((users.|opensuse-factory.)lists.opensuse.org)

And how do you sort each list into it's own folder? I.e. "users" into "opensuse" ("users" would be ok though, (sym-)linking would help), "factory" into "factory", etc...

I'm confused. I don't think your original post showed how you used to do it, or even that you did it at all? And I don't see any material difference in the situation, so I don't understand your problem.

Hello, On Tue, 10 Nov 2020, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 10/11/2020 21.00, David Haller wrote:

...

Hello,

On Tue, 10 Nov 2020, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 10/11/2020 19.43, Bengt Gördén wrote:

...

On 2020-11-10 19:19, David Haller wrote:

...

Now I need one rule like this (for this list) for each of the 11 lists

...

I'm subscribed to:

Just one rule is needed. Add more uniq id inside () if you want. I just use this because I'm lazy.

* ^List-Id.*(opensuse)

But you can have more specific id like this:

* ^List-Id.*(users.lists.opensuse.org|opensuse-factory.lists.opensuse.org)

Something like this might work:

* ^List-Id.*((users.|opensuse-factory.)lists.opensuse.org)

And how do you sort each list into it's own folder? I.e. "users" into "opensuse" ("users" would be ok though, (sym-)linking would help), "factory" into "factory", etc...

I thought you wanted all opensuse lists in a single folder. If you want each list to go to a different folder, you need one full rule for each list.

Nope! ONE rule for _all_ 11 opensuse lists, sorting _each_ into its own folder! Has been working like a charm since the switch to mlmmj. ==== :0 H: * ^X-Mailinglist: *\/opensuse.* $MATCH ==== E.g. to make it clearer, the factory list had this header: ==== X-Mailinglist: opensuse-factory ==== ==== man 5 procmailrc ==== [..] MATCH This variable is assigned to by procmail whenever it is told to extract text from a matching regular expression. It will contain all text matching the regular expression past the `\/' token. [..] \/ Splits the expression in two parts. Everything matching the right part will be assigned to the MATCH environment vari- able. [..] ==== This means: for each list, the stuff after the \/, i.e. the list-name is put into the variable $MATCH and the _EXPANSION_ of that variable is then used as the name of the target folder. :0 H: ### egrep header * ^X-Mailinglist: *\/opensuse.* ### egrep '^X-Mailinglist: *opensuse.*' and ### put stuff after the '\/', i.e. the ### "opensuse.*" into the variable MATCH $MATCH ### now use the EXPANSION of $MATCH as ### the assigned foldername to ### sort the mail into So, with this simple single ONE 3 line rule I got: X-Mailinglist: opensuse -> folder: opensuse X-Mailinglist: opensuse-de -> folder: opensuse-de X-Mailinglist: opensuse-factory -> folder: opensuse-factory X-Mailinglist: opensuse-project -> folder: opensuse-project [..] for all opensuse-lists I am subscribed to. Now I need one rule for each and every one list/folder. I thought of writing a filter to call, but "meh!". And then you have people/software filtering on the Subject header! What's all that about anyway, the german list has never, for IIRC 23+ years, ever had a mangled subject -- until today! Now the subject is also bloated with that totally superfluous "[opensuse-de] " stuff for retarded mailfiltering software and their users. And in my typical terminal window and mutt setup, I see next to nothing of the actual subject anymore. ... .oO( words )Oo. I hope now you understand my sentiment better ... BTW: for MH format folders, you need to use "$MATCH/." instead of the plain "$MATCH" for mbox format folders... see 'man 5 procmailex'. HTH, -dnh -- "We must do something. This is something. Therefore we must do this." -- Military and Corporate Logic

On 10/11/2020 22.21, Jdd wrote:

Don't forget "eye" filtering by user, much easier width subject

That's my case. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 10/11/2020 21.57, David Haller wrote:

Hello,

On Tue, 10 Nov 2020, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 10/11/2020 21.00, David Haller wrote:

...

Hello,

On Tue, 10 Nov 2020, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 10/11/2020 19.43, Bengt Gördén wrote:

...

On 2020-11-10 19:19, David Haller wrote:

...

Now I need one rule like this (for this list) for each of the 11 lists

...

I'm subscribed to:

Just one rule is needed. Add more uniq id inside () if you want. I just use this because I'm lazy.

* ^List-Id.*(opensuse)

But you can have more specific id like this:

* ^List-Id.*(users.lists.opensuse.org|opensuse-factory.lists.opensuse.org)

Something like this might work:

* ^List-Id.*((users.|opensuse-factory.)lists.opensuse.org)

And how do you sort each list into it's own folder? I.e. "users" into "opensuse" ("users" would be ok though, (sym-)linking would help), "factory" into "factory", etc...

I thought you wanted all opensuse lists in a single folder. If you want each list to go to a different folder, you need one full rule for each list.

Nope!

ONE rule for _all_ 11 opensuse lists, sorting _each_ into its own folder! Has been working like a charm since the switch to mlmmj.

==== :0 H: * ^X-Mailinglist: *\/opensuse.* $MATCH ====

Sorry, but it is the first time I see that match thing.

E.g. to make it clearer, the factory list had this header:

==== X-Mailinglist: opensuse-factory ==== ==== man 5 procmailrc ==== [..] MATCH This variable is assigned to by procmail whenever it is told to extract text from a matching regular expression. It will contain all text matching the regular expression past the `\/' token. [..] \/ Splits the expression in two parts. Everything matching the right part will be assigned to the MATCH environment vari- able. [..] ====

This means: for each list, the stuff after the \/, i.e. the list-name is put into the variable $MATCH and the _EXPANSION_ of that variable is then used as the name of the target folder.

News to me.

:0 H: ### egrep header * ^X-Mailinglist: *\/opensuse.* ### egrep '^X-Mailinglist: *opensuse.*' and ### put stuff after the '\/', i.e. the ### "opensuse.*" into the variable MATCH $MATCH ### now use the EXPANSION of $MATCH as ### the assigned foldername to ### sort the mail into

So, with this simple single ONE 3 line rule I got:

X-Mailinglist: opensuse -> folder: opensuse X-Mailinglist: opensuse-de -> folder: opensuse-de X-Mailinglist: opensuse-factory -> folder: opensuse-factory X-Mailinglist: opensuse-project -> folder: opensuse-project [..]

for all opensuse-lists I am subscribed to.

Now I need one rule for each and every one list/folder. I thought of writing a filter to call, but "meh!".

I have one rule per list, on every list, on every computer, and on every possible mail address I use: :0f * ^X-Mailinglist: opensuse-project | $FORMAIL -bfi 'Reply-To: "oS-prjct" ' :0 a: $HOME/Mail/_Lists/os-project :0f * ^X-Mailinglist: opensuse-virtual | $FORMAIL -bfi 'Reply-To: "oS-virtual" ' :0 a: $HOME/Mail/_Lists/os-virtual :0f * ^X-Mailinglist: opensuse-programming | $FORMAIL -bfi 'Reply-To: "oS-prog" ' :0 a: $HOME/Mail/_Lists/os-prgrmmng ... # Must be the last one ! ! ! :0f * ^X-Mailinglist: opensuse | $FORMAIL -bfi 'Reply-To: "OS-en" ' :0 a: $HOME/Mail/_Lists/os-en

And then you have people/software filtering on the Subject header! What's all that about anyway, the german list has never, for IIRC 23+ years, ever had a mangled subject -- until today! Now the subject is also bloated with that totally superfluous "[opensuse-de] " stuff for retarded mailfiltering software and their users. And in my typical terminal window and mutt setup, I see next to nothing of the actual subject anymore. ... .oO( words )Oo.

I absolutely need that subject thing. All mail of dozens of mail lists are mixed at my ISP Inbox folder, and I need to *see* what mail list each one is from. When I move out old mail (more that two month old) it will be sorted by the computer into folders, but not at my ISP Inbox. I need that [string].

I hope now you understand my sentiment better ...

I hope you understand mine ;-)

BTW: for MH format folders, you need to use "$MATCH/." instead of the plain "$MATCH" for mbox format folders... see 'man 5 procmailex'.

Well, I would have liked to know about this two decades ago. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 10/11/2020 23.44, David Haller wrote:

Hello,

On Tue, 10 Nov 2020, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 10/11/2020 21.57, David Haller wrote: [..] I have one rule per list, on every list, on every computer, and on every possible mail address I use:

:0f * ^X-Mailinglist: opensuse-project | $FORMAIL -bfi 'Reply-To: "oS-prjct" ' :0 a: $HOME/Mail/_Lists/os-project [..] :0f * ^X-Mailinglist: opensuse-programming | $FORMAIL -bfi 'Reply-To: "oS-prog" ' :0 a: $HOME/Mail/_Lists/os-prgrmmng [..]

Ignoring the fancy reply-to adresses, and IF you'd accept(ed) the actual listnames as folder names, I wonder if this would have worked:

==== :0f * ^X-Mailinglist: *\/opensuse.* | $FORMAIL -bfi "Reply-To: <$MATCH@opensuse.org>" :0 a: $HOME/Mail/_Lists/$MATCH ====

which would have been convenient, eh?

But I did not know of it. The old mails lists had instructions. I have a copy from 2004: Date: 6 Mar 2004 22:42:33 -0000 From: suse-security-help@suse.com To: robin1.listas@tiscali.es Subject: ezmlm response ... Q9. Can I get the list digest form? A9. We don't offer digested lists for several reasons: ... MAILDIR=$HOME/Mail # where do you keep your mail? DEFAULT=$MAILDIR/inbox # what's you default mail box? # if mail is from SSEC put it in $MAILDIR/ssec :0 * ^X-Mailinglist:.*suse-security $MAILDIR/ssec That's where I got the information for using procmail from... It also said:

Likewise, there is nothing stopping you from inserting your own Reply-To header with procmail.

Which is what I did, too.

...

... # Must be the last one ! ! ! :0f * ^X-Mailinglist: opensuse

Nope, It'd just have needed a dollar:

* ^X-Mailinglist: opensuse$

and it could have been the first or anywhere *scnr*

Ah. Didn't know that, either.

...

...

And then you have people/software filtering on the Subject header! What's all that about anyway, the german list has never, for IIRC 23+ years, ever had a mangled subject -- until today! Now the subject is also bloated with that totally superfluous "[opensuse-de] " stuff for retarded mailfiltering software and their users. And in my typical terminal window and mutt setup, I see next to nothing of the actual subject anymore. ... .oO( words )Oo.

I absolutely need that subject thing.

All mail of dozens of mail lists are mixed at my ISP Inbox folder, and I need to *see* what mail list each one is from.

Oh boy. Do not get me started on ISP inboxes. Or webmail.

:-) No, no webmail, no... I hate it.

Planets... Buckytubes...

:-)

...

When I move out old mail (more that two month old) it will be sorted by the computer into folders, but not at my ISP Inbox.

I need that [string].

What use is IMAP and keeping your mail at your ISP if you can't properly filter and so find and read and answer your mails efficiently? Besides, I don't trust any ISP to keep my mails for longer than I need to POP them ;)

Well, my ISP doesn't have sorting. But I do not want sorting at the ISP: have dozens of IMAP folders out there. Then when I want to archive old email locally two months later, how do I pick them from 30 or 50 remote folders? It is crazy. This way I can see the "recent" mail using different computers, at home and on the move.

I used to get a daily ton of mails (well, hundreds, there were days with over 1k) from various MLs plus truckloads of spam, without efficient filtering and sorting and an efficient mailclient like the mutt I use, I couldn't have kept up. Those were the years when I clocked in at over 1k/year mails, _to_ the suse-linux/opensuse-de ML alone ;)

...

...

I hope now you understand my sentiment better ...

I hope you understand mine ;-)

Yes. I can understand that you need that mangled-subject-crutch when using your ISPs WUI. But not why you use that ;)

Because I can use three computers at home or out.

But I guess you have your reasons. Or at least think you do. I'm not implying you're not right. But I'd do almost anything to avoid stuff like that. And configuring fetchmail,sendmail[1],procmail and mutt all in one go is doing a bit ;)

I would need to run my own imap server (which I do, but not on the server machine) and have it available on internet (which I don't).

...

...

BTW: for MH format folders, you need to use "$MATCH/." instead of the plain "$MATCH" for mbox format folders... see 'man 5 procmailex'.

Well, I would have liked to know about this two decades ago.

Meh. I'm quite sure I've mentioned that before. With the exact same example.

Maybe I did not notice... :-? Or maybe I had already written my recipes.

-dnh

[1] And I wanted to use my domain locally, which was not configurable with Yast. Not sure if Yast can configure postfix to that case, so I did not even look but configured postfix directly. Both sendmail (for ~10ish years) and since then postfix work just like a charm.

-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 11/11/2020 08.56, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 10/11/2020 à 22:50, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

When I move out old mail (more that two month old) it will be sorted by the computer into folders, but not at my ISP Inbox.

if imap, it should be

AFAIK, my ISP doesn't support it. And, I do not want to do it, as it is a mess. If I sort into 40 folders beneath the Inbox, to move the email at some point in time to my computer means that I have to traverse 40 imap folders. Every month I move old threads to my computer for storage. My ISP imap storage space is not infinite. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2020-11-11 at 13:22 +0100, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 11/11/2020 à 12:23, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

folders. Every month I move old threads to my computer for storage. My ISP imap storage space is not infinite.

if you move them to localFolder, it's only local (as I do)

I think you don't understand. When I receive email, I leave it at the Inbox folder of my ISP, for two months at least, so that I can see it in any computer, be it at home or outside. I need to see visually what mail list each email is from. Every month, I move old threads (whole threads), two month old or older, from my ISP to my computer, and only then I sort them into folders using procmail. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCX6vZMRwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVWR8AoIHHcQj5Skl5Kch1Nd0O 3kqM8iHYAJ94pEBLgQTc5aCfv60ZolNwmTesAQ== =hrZO -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 11/11/2020 14.33, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 11/11/2020 à 13:29, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

On Wednesday, 2020-11-11 at 13:22 +0100, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

...

Le 11/11/2020 à 12:23, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

  folders. Every month I move old threads to my computer for storage. My   ISP imap storage space is not infinite.

if you move them to localFolder, it's only local (as I do)

I think you don't understand.

When I receive email, I leave it at the Inbox folder of my ISP, for two months at least, so that I can see it in any computer, be it at home or outside. I need to see visually what mail list each email is from.

Every month, I move old threads (whole threads), two month old or older, from my ISP to my computer, and only then I sort them into folders using procmail.

and?

When they are at the ISP Inbox, I can not see what list they are from unless the subject says so.

I do nearly the same, but receive many mails I don't keep, so with imap when I remove them they are removed on every computer I use.

Certainly

I often sort them to subfolders, and they a moved in any computer

That's what I do not want to do.

When At home, from time to time, I move mails to localhost where they don't use imap memory

far easier when they are all in the single Inbox. Copy to localhost, where my automatic filters will distribute them in the myriad proper folders. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 11/11/2020 17.20, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 11/11/2020 à 16:40, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

When they are at the ISP Inbox, I can not see what list they are from unless the subject says so.

but any client download them... I don't see the problem. You have to do this even with pop.

Why would I download them? If I do, then I do not see the emails on the other computers. I repeat: I need to see what list a mail belong just by looking at them in the Inbox of the ISP IMAP server.

I see only news that dl only headers?

jdd

-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2020-11-11 at 17:25 +0100, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 11/11/2020 à 17:23, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

I repeat: I need to see what list a mail belong just by looking at them in the Inbox of the ISP IMAP server.

how can you do this without downloading them?

That's what Thunderbird or any IMAP User Mail Agent does. This is without downloading: N 8983 20-11-11 14:35 Hans-Peter Jansen (10K) [xine-devel] Some xine-lib/xineliboutput issues 8984 20-11-11 15:06 Marcus Meissner (5951) [opensuse-security] test email - new mailserver 8985 20-11-11 11:17 Jos van Kan (9296) > [opensuse] Stuck in upgrade to 15.2 * 8988 20-11-11 13:16 To: Alpine info (8351) > [Alpine-info] PGP signatures 8991 20-11-11 16:03 Translation Project Robot (5409) New: gnucobol-3.1 (51%, 585 untranslated) 8992 20-11-11 14:50 Christian Franke (7669) > Re: [smartmontools-support] nvme drive partial support N 8994 20-11-11 08:07 Darrick J. Wong (6731) Re: [PATCH] xfs: fix a missing unlock on error in xfs_fs_map_blocks 8995 20-11-11 15:46 opensuse-security@opensuse.org (7598) [opensuse-security-announce] openSUSE-SU-2020:1899-1: moderate: Security update for sddm N 8996 20-11-11 08:55 Darrick J. Wong (7208) [ANNOUNCE] xfs-linux: for-next updated to 2bd3fa793aaa N 8997 20-11-11 09:01 Darrick J. Wong (6955) [ANNOUNCE] xfs-linux: vfs-for-next updated to 9b8523423b23 8998 20-11-11 13:59 Bob Williams (8262) > [opensuse-support] [Leap 15] Running a script at startup automatically N 9002 20-11-10 18:09 Bob Williams (7929) > [opensuse] [Leap 15] Lists gone quiet? 9043 20-11-11 18:31 Stakanov (6659) > [opensuse] Versiera has established connection? 9045 20-11-10 14:02 To: OS-en (9584) > [opensuse] Thunderbird 78.4.0 and PGP - doesn't work for me. * 9076 20-11-11 17:59 Stakanov (6272) > [opensuse] What to use for determining a "route" They don't download the messages to display that information. Also, remember that "downloading" in this context means downloading from the server to the computer and deleting at the server. Downloading for ever. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCX6wz1Bwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfV/zoAnjd/uyGE/A0lgY61+VM7 K4HTjjv3AJ9fSn0XsZEQxHxfX9B3Qv2+JyraWA== =JM/b -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 11/11/2020 20.09, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 11/11/2020 à 19:56, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

Also, remember that "downloading" in this context means downloading from the server to the computer and deleting at the server. Downloading for ever.

not with imap

Of course with imap. I download the emails removing them from the imap server after two months. Before those two months expire, I read them without dowloading them, with imap. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 12/11/2020 08.19, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 11/11/2020 à 20:41, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

On 11/11/2020 20.09, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

...

Le 11/11/2020 à 19:56, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

Also, remember that "downloading" in this context means downloading from the server to the computer and deleting at the server. Downloading for ever.

not with imap

Of course with imap.

only if you delete them or move them out of the imap server. Just reading the mail do not remove them from the server

it's precisely what makes the difference between imap and pop

Let me try to explain again my workflow. 1. Email arrives at my ISP, which makes it available to me via imap. 2. I connect to my ISP IMAP server, and I view it there. *No* download, the mail remains there for about two months. The subject [thing] allows me to see what mail list each mail is from. 3. After two months, I finally move the old email from the isp imap inbox folder to my computer local folder. Now I download it. If I don't move the email, the ISP Inbox fills up and mail bounces. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 12/11/2020 10.39, Dave Howorth wrote:

On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 10:18:04 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:

...

On 12/11/2020 08.19, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

...

Le 11/11/2020 à 20:41, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

On 11/11/2020 20.09, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

...

Le 11/11/2020 à 19:56, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

Also, remember that "downloading" in this context means downloading from the server to the computer and deleting at the server. Downloading for ever.

not with imap

Of course with imap.

only if you delete them or move them out of the imap server. Just reading the mail do not remove them from the server

it's precisely what makes the difference between imap and pop

Let me try to explain again my workflow.

1. Email arrives at my ISP, which makes it available to me via imap. 2. I connect to my ISP IMAP server, and I view it there. *No* download, the mail remains there for about two months. The subject [thing] allows me to see what mail list each mail is from. 3. After two months, I finally move the old email from the isp imap inbox folder to my computer local folder. Now I download it. If I don't move the email, the ISP Inbox fills up and mail bounces.

I think you're causing the discussion to be unnecessarily contentious by choosing to use the wrong words to describe your actions, and then trying to defending that erroneous usage.

Huh? :-?

You download the emails from the server when you read them. (Unless you read them online using a webmail system.)

Sorry, but I simply do not call that downloading. Language issue, perhaps.

The emails remain on the server even after being downloaded, no matter how many times you download them. They are also cached locally on devices to minimise network traffic.

Emails are deleted from the server by a separate command used to do just that.

-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 11/12/2020 5:51 AM, Dave Howorth wrote:

Exactly. You are using the wrong language. Please check IMAP documentation for the correct terms to use.

They must be downloaded (in the usual sense of the word) if you think about it, since you see them on the screen and since most MUAs then cache them to minimise network traffic. I guess that this thread has proved that the list has not gone quiet :-)

It did however make me realize that I need to get a better understanding on how IMAP works.  I would like to do something like I read in this thread where server messages are deleted after two months but I haven't yet figured out how to do this with Thunderbird. Damon Register

Damon Register wrote:

It did however make me realize that I need to get a better understanding on how IMAP works.  I would like to do something like I read in this thread where server messages are deleted after two months but I haven't yet figured out how to do this with Thunderbird.

Right click on a folder, select "properties", then "retention policy". -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.1°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland.

Le 12/11/2020 à 10:39, Dave Howorth a écrit :

You download the emails from the server when you read them. (Unless you read them online using a webmail system.)

even on webmail :-) how could you read it if it's not on your computer? :-) jdd -- http://dodin.org

Le 12/11/2020 à 14:42, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

On 12/11/2020 11.58, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

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Le 12/11/2020 à 10:39, Dave Howorth a écrit :

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You download the emails from the server when you read them. (Unless you read them online using a webmail system.)

even on webmail :-)

how could you read it if it's not on your computer?

By sending the bit to bit displayed, for instance.

it's always sent bit to bit :-)) if you *read* it it have to be somewhere, let alone in the display frame buffer :-)) it's always true: what is visible is local... to the screen :-)) not to say it's easy to keep you still can make a screen copy :-)) and bandwith is the same jdd -- http://dodin.org

On 12/11/2020 11.56, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 12/11/2020 à 10:18, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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   1. Email arrives at my ISP, which makes it available to me via imap.

ok

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   2. I connect to my ISP IMAP server, and I view it there. *No* download,

you view only the header, but can't read the mail without downloading it. even web mail download the file, simply on temporary storage

Yes, temporary storage. Not to the folder on disk.

 the mail remains there for about two months. The subject

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[thing] allows me to see what mail list each mail is from.

yes

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   3. After two months, I finally move the old email from the isp imap inbox folder to my computer local folder. Now I download it. If I don't move the email, the ISP Inbox fills up and mail bounces.

you never delete a mail?

Nope. Only rarely. It allows me to search for things even years later.

and my ISP gives me infinite  storage, never bounce (for this reason)

Space on my ISP is limited. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas))

On 12/11/2020 16.33, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

On 11/12/20 1:18 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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it's precisely what makes the difference between imap and pop

Let me try to explain again my workflow.

 1. Email arrives at my ISP, which makes it available to me via imap.  2. I connect to my ISP IMAP server, and I view it there. *No* download, the mail remains there for about two months. The subject [thing] allows me to see what mail list each mail is from.  3. After two months, I finally move the old email from the isp imap inbox folder to my computer local folder. Now I download it. If I don't move the email, the ISP Inbox fills up and mail bounces.

Why don't you use fetchmail to download from your ISP on a regular basis, maybe once every five-minutes?  You'd need to run postfix on your local box, but you'd be able to do everything you need there and have the luxury of lots of disk space.  I do exactly this for a few of my users and it's worked well for decades.

That's what I did for many years, and the setup still works. The problem starts when you add a laptop to the mix, and using it when not at home. It is far simpler to use the ISP Imap server than setting up my own (which I have, but not 24*7, and not via internet) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas))

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2020-11-11 at 12:37 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Carlos E. R. <> [11-11-20 11:30]:

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On 11/11/2020 17.20, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

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Le 11/11/2020 à 16:40, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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When they are at the ISP Inbox, I can not see what list they are from unless the subject says so.

but any client download them... I don't see the problem. You have to do this even with pop.

Why would I download them? If I do, then I do not see the emails on the other computers.

I repeat: I need to see what list a mail belong just by looking at them in the Inbox of the ISP IMAP server.

you don't have a computer which can function as a server

Yes, I do. But I would have to move the mail to that machine, and allow access to dovecot from internet (which is more work). And then, I would need it to be as reliable as my ISP, which is impossible. For instance, my router can lock randomly, and has to be powercycled to recover. I had this solved with an ethernet controlable power socket and suitable watchdog software that I wrote, but this power socket died recently. So no, I can not ensure remote connection to my home server. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCX6w1KRwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVxIAAn1Uz4NoqJB3IeQ124CNN eClXnytiAJ9tdHIQqxxrHT/7holFd33aiNC2nw== =mKbR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 11/11/2020 23.30, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Carlos E. R. <> [11-11-20 14:04]:

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On Wednesday, 2020-11-11 at 12:37 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Carlos E. R. <> [11-11-20 11:30]:

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On 11/11/2020 17.20, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

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Le 11/11/2020 à 16:40, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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When they are at the ISP Inbox, I can not see what list they are from unless the subject says so.

but any client download them... I don't see the problem. You have to do this even with pop.

Why would I download them? If I do, then I do not see the emails on the other computers.

I repeat: I need to see what list a mail belong just by looking at them in the Inbox of the ISP IMAP server.

you don't have a computer which can function as a server

Yes, I do.

But I would have to move the mail to that machine, and allow access to dovecot from internet (which is more work). And then, I would need it to be as reliable as my ISP, which is impossible.

For instance, my router can lock randomly, and has to be powercycled to recover. I had this solved with an ethernet controlable power socket and suitable watchdog software that I wrote, but this power socket died recently. So no, I can not ensure remote connection to my home server.

but you want the list admins to effect a change to benefit *you* w/o regard to the other 1000s of users.

No. To not change. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

Carlos E. R. composed on 2020-11-11 23:32 (UTC+0100):

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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but you want the list admins to effect a change to benefit *you* w/o regard to the other 1000s of users.

No. To not change.

+1 -- Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion, is based on faith, not on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/

Patrick Shanahan composed on 2020-11-11 21:39 (UTC-0500):

* Felix Miata composed:

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Carlos E. R. composed on 2020-11-11 23:32 (UTC+0100):

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Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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but you want the list admins to effect a change to benefit *you* w/o regard to the other 1000s of users.

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No. To not change.

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+1

that is absurd, Felix. you would rather break the list. there is no option on the table. There should be. Everything worked and looked good from here before the list software change. People outside our community should not be dictating how our community must be run. -- Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion, is based on faith, not on science.

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/

On 12/11/2020 03.39, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Felix Miata [11-11-20 21:35]:

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Carlos E. R. composed on 2020-11-11 23:32 (UTC+0100):

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Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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but you want the list admins to effect a change to benefit *you* w/o regard to the other 1000s of users.

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No. To not change.

+1

that is absurd, Felix. you would rather break the list. there is no option on the table.

Yes, there is. Change the "From:" to be: "From opensuse on behalf of somebody" There are lists out there doing this. Example: Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 23:05:52 +0200 (CEST) From: Carlos E. R. via Lazarus To: Lazarus mail list Cc: Carlos E. R. Subject: [Lazarus] How can I write to arbitrary position on device -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

* David Haller [11-10-20 15:58]:

Hello,

On Tue, 10 Nov 2020, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 10/11/2020 21.00, David Haller wrote:

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Hello,

On Tue, 10 Nov 2020, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 10/11/2020 19.43, Bengt Gördén wrote:

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On 2020-11-10 19:19, David Haller wrote:

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Now I need one rule like this (for this list) for each of the 11 lists

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I'm subscribed to:

Just one rule is needed. Add more uniq id inside () if you want. I just use this because I'm lazy.

* ^List-Id.*(opensuse)

But you can have more specific id like this:

* ^List-Id.*(users.lists.opensuse.org|opensuse-factory.lists.opensuse.org)

Something like this might work:

* ^List-Id.*((users.|opensuse-factory.)lists.opensuse.org)

And how do you sort each list into it's own folder? I.e. "users" into "opensuse" ("users" would be ok though, (sym-)linking would help), "factory" into "factory", etc...

I thought you wanted all opensuse lists in a single folder. If you want each list to go to a different folder, you need one full rule for each list.

Nope!

ONE rule for _all_ 11 opensuse lists, sorting _each_ into its own folder! Has been working like a charm since the switch to mlmmj.

==== :0 H: * ^X-Mailinglist: *\/opensuse.* $MATCH ====

E.g. to make it clearer, the factory list had this header:

==== X-Mailinglist: opensuse-factory ==== ==== man 5 procmailrc ==== [..] MATCH This variable is assigned to by procmail whenever it is told to extract text from a matching regular expression. It will contain all text matching the regular expression past the `\/' token. [..] \/ Splits the expression in two parts. Everything matching the right part will be assigned to the MATCH environment vari- able. [..] ====

This means: for each list, the stuff after the \/, i.e. the list-name is put into the variable $MATCH and the _EXPANSION_ of that variable is then used as the name of the target folder.

:0 H: ### egrep header * ^X-Mailinglist: *\/opensuse.* ### egrep '^X-Mailinglist: *opensuse.*' and ### put stuff after the '\/', i.e. the ### "opensuse.*" into the variable MATCH $MATCH ### now use the EXPANSION of $MATCH as ### the assigned foldername to ### sort the mail into

So, with this simple single ONE 3 line rule I got:

X-Mailinglist: opensuse -> folder: opensuse X-Mailinglist: opensuse-de -> folder: opensuse-de X-Mailinglist: opensuse-factory -> folder: opensuse-factory X-Mailinglist: opensuse-project -> folder: opensuse-project [..]

for all opensuse-lists I am subscribed to.

Now I need one rule for each and every one list/folder. I thought of writing a filter to call, but "meh!".

And then you have people/software filtering on the Subject header! What's all that about anyway, the german list has never, for IIRC 23+ years, ever had a mangled subject -- until today! Now the subject is also bloated with that totally superfluous "[opensuse-de] " stuff for retarded mailfiltering software and their users. And in my typical terminal window and mutt setup, I see next to nothing of the actual subject anymore. ... .oO( words )Oo.

I hope now you understand my sentiment better ...

BTW: for MH format folders, you need to use "$MATCH/." instead of the plain "$MATCH" for mbox format folders... see 'man 5 procmailex'.

and now available which is similar to "X-Mailinglist:" is "List-Id:" and provides for the same sorting but instead of: opensuse-factory, you have: factory.lists.opensuse.org ==== :0 H: * ^X-Mailinglist: *\/opensuse.* $MATCH ==== becomes === :0 H: * ^List-Id:.*\/opensuse.* $MATCH === -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode

David -- ...and then David Haller said... % ... % Nope! % % ONE rule for _all_ 11 opensuse lists, sorting _each_ into its own % folder! Has been working like a charm since the switch to mlmmj. Don't feel bad. I understood you :-) % ... % % And then you have people/software filtering on the Subject header! ... % retarded mailfiltering software and their users. And in my typical % terminal window and mutt setup, I see next to nothing of the actual [snip] +1 I suppose you could write some formail rules to check the Subject: for the [List ID] and magically disappear it ... :-) HANN :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt

Per Jessen wrote:

David Haller wrote:

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And then you have people/software filtering on the Subject header! What's all that about anyway, the german list has never, for IIRC 23+ years, ever had a mangled subject -- until today! Now the subject is also bloated with that totally superfluous "[opensuse-de] " stuff for retarded mailfiltering software and their users.

It was really just set up by default, not intentional for anyone or anything. I think it was simply overlooked that a few (~20) lists do not have that listname prefix.

FYI, I have removed it now. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.8°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 11/11/2020 10.03, Per Jessen wrote:

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Per Jessen wrote:

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David Haller wrote:

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And then you have people/software filtering on the Subject header! What's all that about anyway, the german list has never, for IIRC 23+ years, ever had a mangled subject -- until today! Now the subject is also bloated with that totally superfluous "[opensuse-de] " stuff for retarded mailfiltering software and their users.

It was really just set up by default, not intentional for anyone or anything. I think it was simply overlooked that a few (~20) lists do not have that listname prefix.

FYI, I have removed it now.

Huh, you should consider disabling the "administrivia" check. It is causing bounces. See "Thunderbird 78.4.0 and PGP - doesn't work for me." thread for one example and explanation.

Please summarise the issue for me, that thread is too long for me to go through one by one. Maybe open a ticket too ? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.4°C)

On 11/11/2020 12.47, Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Huh, you should consider disabling the "administrivia" check. It is causing bounces. See "Thunderbird 78.4.0 and PGP - doesn't work for me." thread for one example and explanation.

Please summarise the issue for me, that thread is too long for me to go through one by one. Maybe open a ticket too ?

Ok, I just discovered a new header. It is this post (and the next one by Dave Howorth explains what is happening): Archived-At: https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/users@lists.opensuse.org/message/67... Sorry, I can not impede line wrap with new version of Thunderbird. Sure, I can open a ticket if you wish. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

David C. Rankin wrote:

On 11/11/20 1:53 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

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David Haller wrote:

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And then you have people/software filtering on the Subject header! What's all that about anyway, the german list has never, for IIRC 23+ years, ever had a mangled subject -- until today! Now the subject is also bloated with that totally superfluous "[opensuse-de] " stuff for retarded mailfiltering software and their users.

It was really just set up by default, not intentional for anyone or anything. I think it was simply overlooked that a few (~20) lists do not have that listname prefix.

Even this list seems broken as "Reply-List" brings up:

users@lists.opensuse.org

That is the new list address, seems fine to me. See Monday's and Tuesday's announcements and the wiki page: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_Lists_Migration -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.9°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland.

On 11/11/2020 11.17, Dave Howorth wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2020 21:57:22 +0100 David Haller wrote:

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==== man 5 procmailrc ====

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procmail "Procmail is stable, but no longer maintained, and a number of security vulnerabilities have been discovered since its last release.[3] Users are advised by procmail's last maintainer, Philip Guenther,[4] to use an alternative tool, because procmail is not suited for MIME traffic."

There is no suitable alternative tool.

It also lists some alternatives. Personally I just use my MUA's filtering abilities.

Can not be used with fetchmail. And terrible idea if you have several computers, cumbersome to replicate the filters in all of them (Thunderbird). -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 12:15:28 -0800 L A Walsh wrote:

On 2020/11/10 10:09, Bob Williams wrote:

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No posts received today into any of the opensuse lists I'm subscribed to. Is this a result of the switch to mailman?

--- might check other folders. Alot of my open suse emails have ended up in my 'general' folder (for unsorted email), which usually gets next to zip).

Good suggestion, but no, I've checked everywhere. It's just like I've been unsubscribed from all the lists (six of them). I tried resubscribing to one this morning, but I didn't even get the confirmation email. Very odd. -- Robert Williams bob-uu@protonmail.ch robert.williams@karmasailing.uk +44 (0)1903 866960 https://useplaintext.email/

* usenet@karmasailing.uk [11-11-20 16:32]:

On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 12:15:28 -0800 L A Walsh wrote:

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On 2020/11/10 10:09, Bob Williams wrote:

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No posts received today into any of the opensuse lists I'm subscribed to. Is this a result of the switch to mailman?

--- might check other folders. Alot of my open suse emails have ended up in my 'general' folder (for unsorted email), which usually gets next to zip).

Good suggestion, but no, I've checked everywhere. It's just like I've been unsubscribed from all the lists (six of them). I tried resubscribing to one this morning, but I didn't even get the confirmation email.

Very odd.

yes, odd, and "amazing" that you failed to see the multiple announcements and discussions about the mailing list software and address changes. and then there is gobble/bling/duckduckdodo/... -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode

On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 14:39:22 -0800 L A Walsh wrote:

On 2020/11/11 13:30, usenet@karmasailing.uk wrote:

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Good suggestion, but no, I've checked everywhere. It's just like I've been unsubscribed from all the lists (six of them). I tried resubscribing to one this morning, but I didn't even get the confirmation email.

Very odd.

---

Very odd, since I've gotten about 89 msgs that were not categorized as suse messages due to my previous filter no longer matching. They ended up in an 'unsorted' (general) folder.

Oddly, I may have to turn on some debugging, since my updated filters keep filtering it into 'general'. Grrrr.

When I bunch come in uncategorized, I can filter them in Tbird & save them to a file, then resubmit the messages through the filter so they get saved correctly -- ASSUMING the darn filter is working correctly. Sigh.

My filtering is done at the upstream IMAP server, so that all my machines see the same folder structure, and I only have to set the filters in one place. It has worked perfectly for years. And it's only the opensuse lists that have been affected. The only thing I've changed is to add the new List-ID header as an OR condition to the existing filters. -- Bob

On Thu, 12 Nov 2020 13:00:12 -0800 L A Walsh wrote:

On 2020/11/11 23:11, usenet@karmasailing.uk wrote:

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On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 14:39:22 -0800 L A Walsh wrote:

The only thing I've changed is to add the new List-ID header as an OR condition to the existing filters.

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So was list going quiet before or after you made that change, or are you getting email from it now?

Curious...

I'm getting list mail now, thank you. With help from admin@lists.o.o I found that my ISP had inexplicably blacklisted the opensuse.org domain. They re-instated it for me, but I didn't have time to delve into the whys and wherefors. Things went quiet after I changed the filters (at my ISP, ie. the IMAP server), but I wouldn't like to attribute cause and effect here. Coould just be coincidence. The filters work as expected now. Bob -- Bob Williams System: Linux 5.3.18-lp152.47-default Desktop: KDE Frameworks: 5.71.0, Qt: 5.12.7 and Plasma: 5.18.5 https://useplaintext.email/