[opensuse] What a shit is this setup

Eberhard Moenkeberg

14 Aug 2006 14 Aug '06

01:28

Hi, see subject. I get all replies double (from list and from private), and if I answer one of them, it does not appear within the list even if I have set "both" in pine. This is so crazy that I tend to resign all my activity (including reading) here. Anyone feeling so much annoyed as I am by this "puretanian" list configuration? It seems to me like some debian playchilds have made it into SUSE/Novell: big ideas of purity in the heads, but running against the nearest walls. And after that, not recognizing that their heads have crashed. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

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Kenneth Schneider

14 Aug 14 Aug

03:15

On Mon, 2006-08-14 at 03:28 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

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Hi,

see subject.

I get all replies double (from list and from private), and if I answer one of them, it does not appear within the list even if I have set "both" in pine.

This is so crazy that I tend to resign all my activity (including reading) here.

Anyone feeling so much annoyed as I am by this "puretanian" list configuration?

It seems to me like some debian playchilds have made it into SUSE/Novell: big ideas of purity in the heads, but running against the nearest walls. And after that, not recognizing that their heads have crashed.

Cheers -e

Not only that but what happened to the list sig that was at the end of every email? Sure makes it much easier for someone to leave the list and get additional info. ********************************************************************* --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org ********************************************************************* -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

Jan Engelhardt

06:28

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Hi,

see subject.

I get all replies double (from list and from private),

Some people's MUA's are broken then (yours not). There are a number of ways for list software to manage replies, 1. Traditional Nothing special You hit reply, and pine will put the original author as To:, all other people into Cc:, including the list. Benefit: People NOT subscribed to the list get their reply in any case. Disadvantage: Double mails, because people replying to your post will post it once to the mailing list and privately to you. Using pine's Threaded View (keys: KH), you can look over what comes in deduce what is double. 2. Reply-To List software adds a Reply-To: opensuse@ header You hit reply, and pine will put opensuse@ into To:, Cc: remains empty. Benefit/Disadvantage: People only ever reply to the list daemon (unless they explicitly wish to not do so and instead only do private), therefore you only ever get one mail - from the list daemon back. Non-subscribers (if their post makes it to the list at all) do not get a reply unless they are explicitly added by the poster.

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of them, it does not appear within the list even if I have set "both" in pine.

Include original message in Reply (using ">")? Use "Reply-To:" address instead of "From:" address? Hm, I do not get the question about Reply, Follow-Up and/or Both for regular mailing lists, only for NNTP. Seems fine. FWIW, you can try /FTP/linux/misc/suser-jengelh/SUSE-10.1/i586/pine-4.64N-10.jen1.i586.rpm and start with a fresh .pinerc.

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Not only that but what happened to the list sig that was at the end of every email? Sure makes it much easier for someone to leave the list and get additional info.

My pine screen: """ Not only that but what happened to the list sig that was at the end of every email? Sure makes it much easier for someone to leave the list and get additional info. ********************************************************************* --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org ********************************************************************* -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 [ Note: This message contains email list management information ] """ Everything is there. Jan Engelhardt --

Pascal Bleser

07:15

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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see subject. I get all replies double (from list and from private),

Hmm.. I don't, I only get the reply through the list. Did both replies come from mlmmj ?

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Some people's MUA's are broken then (yours not). There are a number of ways for list software to manage replies, ... 2. Reply-To List software adds a Reply-To: opensuse@ header You hit reply, and pine will put opensuse@ into To:, Cc: remains empty. Benefit/Disadvantage: People only ever reply to the list daemon (unless they explicitly wish to not do so and instead only do private), therefore you only ever get one mail - from the list daemon back. Non-subscribers (if their post makes it to the list at all) do not get a reply unless they are explicitly added by the poster.

IMO that's what everyone wants to do 99% of the time. Private emails are rather the exception than the rule. I also find it annoying that the default action is not the most obvious to use (thunderbird needs a patch, other MUAs don't bind it to the default "reply" either). But, well, the patched Thunderbird can do it, so it's fine with me ;) (just having to hit Ctrl+I instead of Ctrl+R when it's on the list)

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of them, it does not appear within the list even if I have set "both" in pine. ... Not only that but what happened to the list sig that was at the end of every email? Sure makes it much easier for someone to leave the list and get additional info.

My pine screen: ... Everything is there.

I don't see the list signature here either, just like Eberhard. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFE4CL4r3NMWliFcXcRAiSMAKCPYcKrfI23NO+Rs/Ym05Jeu7P0IQCgkcOt bDjE4GdJvOophyyun+CWYno= =NFO7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Jan Engelhardt

07:22

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of them, it does not appear within the list even if I have set "both" in pine. ... Not only that but what happened to the list sig that was at the end of every email? Sure makes it much easier for someone to leave the list and get additional info.

My pine screen: ... Everything is there.

I don't see the list signature here either, just like Eberhard.

Uh that's a pine-only feature generating that footer "This message contains email list management information" (pine-4.64/pine/mailview.c:2219) This info is extracted from the mail headers Mailing-List: contact opensuse-help@opensuse.org; run by mlmmj X-Mailinglist: opensuse List-Post: mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org List-Help: mailto:opensuse-help@opensuse.org List-Subscribe: mailto:opensuse-subscribe@opensuse.org List-Unsubscribe: mailto:opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org List-Owner: mailto:opensuse-owner@opensuse.org If your MUA does not make something useful out of these headers, it's time to switch to pine. And I have tested, even the default blunt unconfigured pine that comes with SUSE 9.3 (without any .pinerc) shows that message. Jan Engelhardt --

Pascal Bleser

07:34

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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of them, it does not appear within the list even if I have set "both" in pine. ... Not only that but what happened to the list sig that was at the end of every email? Sure makes it much easier for someone to leave the list and get additional info. My pine screen: ... Everything is there. I don't see the list signature here either, just like Eberhard.

Uh that's a pine-only feature generating that footer "This message contains email list management information" (pine-4.64/pine/mailview.c:2219) This info is extracted from the mail headers

Ah, ok, so mlmmj is not injecting footers into the emails it relays. Actually it strips out the signature completely. Anything beyond the "--" is removed, at least from what I see here. We'll probably get a few more "unsubscribe" sent to the list (instead of opensuse-unsubscribe) but that's a non-issue. ...

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If your MUA does not make something useful out of these headers, it's time to switch to pine.

Jan, you gotta be kidding me. Just because Thunderbird only shows that information in the headers doesn't mean I have to switch to the ugliest MUA ever. (yeah, sure, X is so overrated, etc...) cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFE4Cdzr3NMWliFcXcRAtcDAKCftMl8t74xF5CszabLzobovezTCgCfcwda LtBLh/7KsgqQ2B1qfpX5hX8= =1mBJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Jan Engelhardt

08:39

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Uh that's a pine-only feature generating that footer "This message contains email list management information" (pine-4.64/pine/mailview.c:2219) This info is extracted from the mail headers

Ah, ok, so mlmmj is not injecting footers into the emails it relays. Actually it strips out the signature completely. Anything beyond the "--" is removed, at least from what I see here.

Ah, the problem is that mlmmj seems to append before stripping, which is Wrong In This Case.

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If your MUA does not make something useful out of these headers, it's time to switch to pine.

Jan, you gotta be kidding me. Just because Thunderbird only shows that information in the headers doesn't mean I have to switch to the ugliest MUA ever.

If it shows the headers, that's ok. But the default configuration for many clients is to only show 'most important headers' (From,To,Cc,Reply-To,Newsgroups,Subject) and that's it. Jan Engelhardt this time no sigdashes, let's see what goes

Henne Vogelsang

09:49

Hi, On Monday, August 14, 2006 at 09:34:11, Pascal Bleser wrote:

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Ah, ok, so mlmmj is not injecting footers into the emails it relays.

True.

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Actually it strips out the signature completely.

Not true.

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Anything beyond the "--" is removed, at least from what I see here.

Thats your MUA probably. Most of them strip stuff after "-- \n".

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We'll probably get a few more "unsubscribe" sent to the list (instead of opensuse-unsubscribe) but that's a non-issue.

Footer is back, as you see :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, Core Services "Rules change. The Game remains the same." - Omar (The Wire) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt

10:02

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We'll probably get a few more "unsubscribe" sent to the list (instead of opensuse-unsubscribe) but that's a non-issue.

Footer is back, as you see :)

Now if you can make Eberhard happy again... Jan Engelhardt -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Eberhard Moenkeberg

12:41

Hi, On Mon, 14 Aug 2006, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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...
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We'll probably get a few more "unsubscribe" sent to the list (instead of opensuse-unsubscribe) but that's a non-issue.

Footer is back, as you see :)

Now if you can make Eberhard happy again...

I was not complaining about lost footers. My rage is against the missing Reply-To header line. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson

14:18

On Monday 14 August 2006 14:41, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

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Hi,

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...
...
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We'll probably get a few more "unsubscribe" sent to the list (instead of opensuse-unsubscribe) but that's a non-issue.

Footer is back, as you see :)

Now if you can make Eberhard happy again...

I was not complaining about lost footers. My rage is against the missing Reply-To header line.

That should be set by the email client. The list server doesn't munge it. So get pine to insert a reply-to header and you're set. In kmail it's simple :) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Eberhard Moenkeberg

14:28

Hi, On Mon, 14 Aug 2006, Anders Johansson wrote:

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On Monday 14 August 2006 14:41, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

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On Mon, 14 Aug 2006, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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We'll probably get a few more "unsubscribe" sent to the list (instead of opensuse-unsubscribe) but that's a non-issue.

Footer is back, as you see :)

Now if you can make Eberhard happy again...

I was not complaining about lost footers. My rage is against the missing Reply-To header line.

That should be set by the email client. The list server doesn't munge it. So get pine to insert a reply-to header and you're set.

In kmail it's simple :)

You misunderstood. The list server shall flag his outgoing mails with a Reply-To so the answers go back to the list by default. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schröder

14:49

2006/8/14, Eberhard Moenkeberg :

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The list server shall flag his outgoing mails with a Reply-To so the answers go back to the list by default.

No. Use a MUA that knows about mailing lists, e.g. mutt. Best Martin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Eberhard Moenkeberg

14:56

Hi, On Mon, 14 Aug 2006, Martin Schröder wrote:

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2006/8/14, Eberhard Moenkeberg :

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The list server shall flag his outgoing mails with a Reply-To so the answers go back to the list by default.

No. Use a MUA that knows about mailing lists, e.g. mutt.

No. It has to get corrected at the list server. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Kenneth Schneider

13:46

On Mon, 2006-08-14 at 11:49 +0200, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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Hi,

On Monday, August 14, 2006 at 09:34:11, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...
Ah, ok, so mlmmj is not injecting footers into the emails it relays.

True.

...
Actually it strips out the signature completely.

Not true.

...
Anything beyond the "--" is removed, at least from what I see here.

Thats your MUA probably. Most of them strip stuff after "-- \n".

...
We'll probably get a few more "unsubscribe" sent to the list (instead of opensuse-unsubscribe) but that's a non-issue.

Footer is back, as you see :)

Henne

Thank you Henne. The footer makes it much easier for the _new_ list members to leave if they feel they are on the wrong list. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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participants (7)

Anders Johansson
Eberhard Moenkeberg
Henne Vogelsang
Jan Engelhardt
Kenneth Schneider
Martin Schröder
Pascal Bleser