[opensuse] help forum no help getting printer to print
After seeing "unable to open listen socket for address ::1:631 - Address family not supported by protocol" in /var/log/cups/error_log, Google told me goto http://forums.opensuse.org/english/get-technical-help-here/install-boot-logi... and http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:GDI_Printers to figure out why I can't print with my Canon GDI, but instead of help I just see the incompetent results of incompetent site styles: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/opensuseforumsmess01.jpg Can someone please fix the openSUSE web sites to use browser defaults instead of mousetype so that this kind of mess doesn't keep happening? I've been trying off & on in 11.4 & 12.1 since last winter to make my IP printer work, but it refuses to print except for the YaST2 test page, or PDFs from Okular. All other apps tried, and this is on multiple puters, fail to even wake up the printer, much less print. Until the last driver update, the printer would wake up, but display an error instead of printing. Apps tried are mostly various Gwenview, Firefox, SeaMonkey & Konqueror versions. Months ago I filed https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=683476 and later http://www.cups.org/str.php?L3916 in hopes of eventually being able to print in something newer than 11.2. http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Cups/gx280/121/ contains logs from today's attempts on one machine with 12.1B1. I opened the printer's IP in Konqueror, but nothing there seems able to help with this. IPV6 is disabled in YaST, and cmdline includes ipv6.disable=1. /etc/hosts includes 127.0.0.1 localhost localhost. How do I get my printer to print from apps other than Okular in 11.4 and/or 12.1? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
After seeing "unable to open listen socket for address ::1:631 - Address family not supported by protocol" in /var/log/cups/error_log,
Suggestion: amend your /etc/hosts file and comment out the line that has '::1' listed for localhost.
I've been trying off & on in 11.4 & 12.1 since last winter to make my IP printer work, but it refuses to print except for the YaST2 test page, or PDFs from Okular.
I guess you're not printing direct but via cups? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2011/10/06 08:01 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
After seeing "unable to open listen socket for address ::1:631 - Address family not supported by protocol" in /var/log/cups/error_log,
Suggestion: amend your /etc/hosts file and comment out the line that has '::1' listed for localhost.
When I saw that ::1:631 error I stripped all IPV6 lines from /etc/hosts. Didn't help.
I've been trying off& on in 11.4& 12.1 since last winter to make my IP printer work, but it refuses to print except for the YaST2 test page, or PDFs from Okular.
I guess you're not printing direct but via cups?
I configure printers using YaST2, and let apps figure out on their own where the printer is, what it's called and how to use it. It always worked that way before. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/10/06 08:01 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
After seeing "unable to open listen socket for address ::1:631 - Address family not supported by protocol" in /var/log/cups/error_log,
Suggestion: amend your /etc/hosts file and comment out the line that has '::1' listed for localhost.
When I saw that ::1:631 error I stripped all IPV6 lines from /etc/hosts. Didn't help.
But you are running with IPv6 disabled, right? That is what the error message from cups seems to indicate.
I've been trying off& on in 11.4& 12.1 since last winter to make my IP printer work, but it refuses to print except for the YaST2 test page, or PDFs from Okular.
I guess you're not printing direct but via cups?
I configure printers using YaST2, and let apps figure out on their own where the printer is, what it's called and how to use it. It always worked that way before.
Okay. Do you want to try to troubleshoot your cups setup or is the forum-setup more important to you? To troubleshoot your cups setup, we'll probably need some more info - i.e. is a networked setup, single PC or multiple, and what happens when printing from an application doesn't work? I.e. is it refused or just ignored or accepted, but nothing happens? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2011/10/06 13:08 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/10/06 08:01 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
After seeing "unable to open listen socket for address ::1:631 - Address family not supported by protocol" in /var/log/cups/error_log,
Suggestion: amend your /etc/hosts file and comment out the line that has '::1' listed for localhost.
When I saw that ::1:631 error I stripped all IPV6 lines from /etc/hosts. Didn't help.
But you are running with IPv6 disabled, right? That is what the error message from cups seems to indicate.
Quote from OP: "IPV6 is disabled in YaST, and cmdline includes ipv6.disable=1. /etc/hosts includes 127.0.0.1 localhost localhost."
I've been trying off& on in 11.4& 12.1 since last winter to make my IP printer work, but it refuses to print except for the YaST2 test page, or PDFs from Okular.
I guess you're not printing direct but via cups?
I configure printers using YaST2, and let apps figure out on their own where the printer is, what it's called and how to use it. It always worked that way before.
To troubleshoot your cups setup, we'll probably need some more info - i.e. is a networked setup, single PC or multiple, and what happens when printing from an application doesn't work? I.e. is it refused or just ignored or accepted, but nothing happens?
Quote from OP: "trying off & on in 11.4 & 12.1 since last winter to make my IP printer work...I opened the printer's IP in Konqueror...multiple puters, fail to even wake up the printer". I would have thought that info, plus the logs at http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Cups/gx280/121/ (also included in OP), to be the info you're asking for. AFAIK, non-IP printers cannot be reached via their (non-existent) IPs, while "fail to even wake up the printer" constitutes nothing happening". "job.cacheBADgv" is job.cache from failed attempt to print with Gwenview. "error_logOKokular" is error_log after successful print from Okular. "c00005BADfirefox" is c00005 print job from failed attempt to print from Firefox. "access_logBADkonq" is access_log from failed attempt to print from Konqueror". Etc. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/10/06 13:08 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/10/06 08:01 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
After seeing "unable to open listen socket for address ::1:631 - Address family not supported by protocol" in /var/log/cups/error_log,
Suggestion: amend your /etc/hosts file and comment out the line that has '::1' listed for localhost.
When I saw that ::1:631 error I stripped all IPV6 lines from /etc/hosts. Didn't help.
But you are running with IPv6 disabled, right? That is what the error message from cups seems to indicate.
Quote from OP: "IPV6 is disabled in YaST, and cmdline includes ipv6.disable=1. /etc/hosts includes 127.0.0.1 localhost localhost."
When you're asking for help, it's recommendable not to be cheeky.
Quote from OP: "trying off & on in 11.4 & 12.1 since last winter to make my IP printer work...I opened the printer's IP in Konqueror...multiple puters, fail to even wake up the printer".
I would have thought that info, plus the logs at http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Cups/gx280/121/ (also included in OP), to be the info you're asking for.
Perhaps, I was just thinking you could have helped me identify the pertinent bits, not just sling the whole lot at me :-)
AFAIK, non-IP printers cannot be reached via their (non-existent) IPs,
Sounds reasonable.
while "fail to even wake up the printer" constitutes nothing happening". "job.cacheBADgv" is job.cache from failed attempt to print with Gwenview. "error_logOKokular" is error_log after successful print from Okular. "c00005BADfirefox" is c00005 print job from failed attempt to print from Firefox. "access_logBADkonq" is access_log from failed attempt to print from Konqueror". Etc.
So, judging by a few of those logs, the print job is correct submitted. What does cups then do with it? Have you checked the job-status in cups? http://printserver:631 -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:09:39 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
After seeing "unable to open listen socket for address ::1:631 - Address family not supported by protocol" in /var/log/cups/error_log, Google told me goto http://forums.opensuse.org/english/get-technical-help-here/install-boot- login/408396-cups-deamon-not-accessable.html and http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:GDI_Printers to figure out why I can't print with my Canon GDI, but instead of help I just see the incompetent results of incompetent site styles: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/opensuseforumsmess01.jpg
Can someone please fix the openSUSE web sites to use browser defaults instead of mousetype so that this kind of mess doesn't keep happening?
If you can give us steps to reproduce, we'll look at it. It's not helpful to use charged words like "incompetent", BTW. Nobody has ever reported seeing something like this (that I can recall), and we have thousands of users who use the site without issues. I can't tell which browser you're using. Some details would be helpful, along with when you tried to do this. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Jim Henderson wrote:
I can't tell which browser you're using. Some details would be helpful, along with when you tried to do this.
It looks like SeaMonkey. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 19:50:39 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Jim Henderson wrote:
I can't tell which browser you're using. Some details would be helpful, along with when you tried to do this.
It looks like SeaMonkey.
Thanks, never used that one before, and I suspect it's not often used in the forums. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2011/10/06 18:08 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 19:50:39 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Jim Henderson wrote:
I can't tell which browser you're using. Some details would be helpful, along with when you tried to do this.
Screenshot was yesterday on 12.1B1, but general behavior is longstanding <https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=203468 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=646418>. Details to follow when time permits, as so much has been lost trying to make print work in order that other projects can escape logjam.
It looks like SeaMonkey.
Thanks, never used that one before, and I suspect it's not often used in the forums.
Before there was Firefox, there was the Mozilla Web Suite, from whence Firefox sprung, and all of which use or used the Gecko rendering engines available at each's individual time of release. After Mozilla.org stopped developing "Mozilla", Mozilla nevertheless continued as an independent project, under a new name: SeaMonkey. To recap: Firefox = Gecko. SeaMonkey = Gecko. Therefore, Firefox = SeaMonkey[1], and any rendering differences between them are results of Gecko version mismatch. [1] http://geckoisgecko.org/ -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 15:21:28 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/10/06 18:08 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 19:50:39 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Jim Henderson wrote:
I can't tell which browser you're using. Some details would be helpful, along with when you tried to do this.
Screenshot was yesterday on 12.1B1, but general behavior is longstanding <https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=203468 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=646418>. Details to follow when time permits, as so much has been lost trying to make print work in order that other projects can escape logjam.
I don't have access to that bug, but just to be clear, I'm talking about the display issue you saw in the forums, not the printing issue. Since I'm staff on the forums, I can try to get that addressed if I can reproduce the issue.
It looks like SeaMonkey.
Thanks, never used that one before, and I suspect it's not often used in the forums.
Before there was Firefox, there was the Mozilla Web Suite, [...]
Yes, I am fully aware of the pedigree of SeaMonkey. I was saying I haven't ever used it. There's no need to give me a history lesson when *I'm* trying to help resolve a forum issue *you* ran into. If you want me to see about addressing the issue you saw with the forums, help me reproduce it. If not, then I won't worry about it, as I mentioned before, I've never seen a report of that particular issue, and I have used Firefox (as many users do) to read the forums through the web interface. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Thu, 06 Oct 2011, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 19:50:39 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Jim Henderson wrote:
I can't tell which browser you're using. Some details would be helpful, along with when you tried to do this.
It looks like SeaMonkey.
Thanks, never used that one before, and I suspect it's not often used in the forums.
It's Firefox with a IMO much better GUI, as evidenced by the Useragent string: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:7.0) Gecko/20110922 Firefox/7.0 SeaMonkey/2.4 I use Seamonkey as Browser (and RSS-Reader) only. And the Forum (the URL Felix mailed) looks just fine here, with and without CSS enabled. Felix, what addons are you using? Any mucking about with CSS? Userscripts? -dnh -- Unsubscribing from a mailing list you subscribed to is a basic IQ test for Internet users. -- Author unknown, seen on the PCR-1000 list -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 21:34:45 +0200, David Haller wrote:
It's Firefox with a IMO much better GUI, as evidenced by the Useragent string:
Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:7.0) Gecko/20110922 Firefox/7.0 SeaMonkey/2.4
I use Seamonkey as Browser (and RSS-Reader) only.
And the Forum (the URL Felix mailed) looks just fine here, with and without CSS enabled.
Thanks, I guess I wasn't very clear when I said I hadn't used it - I didn't mean that I hadn't heard of it before, just that I hadn't used it. Thanks for your feedback on the display issue and indicating that you weren't able to reproduce it. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2011/10/06 17:34 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:09:39 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
After seeing "unable to open listen socket for address ::1:631 - Address family not supported by protocol" in /var/log/cups/error_log, Google told me goto http://forums.opensuse.org/english/get-technical-help-here/install-boot-logi... and http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:GDI_Printers to figure out why I can't print with my Canon GDI, but instead of help I just see the incompetent results of incompetent site styles: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/opensuseforumsmess01.jpg
That screenshot is now available at https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=454976
Can someone please fix the openSUSE web sites to use browser defaults instead of mousetype so that this kind of mess doesn't keep happening?
If you can give us steps to reproduce, we'll look at it. It's not helpful to use charged words like "incompetent", BTW. Nobody has ever reported seeing something like this (that I can recall), and we have thousands of users who use the site without issues.
On 2011/10/06 22:13 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
Screenshot was yesterday on 12.1B1, but general behavior is longstanding <https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=203468 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=646418>. Details to follow when time permits, as so much has been lost trying to make print work in order that other projects can escape logjam.
I don't have access to that bug, but just to be clear, I'm talking about the display issue you saw in the forums, not the printing issue. Since
That's why I opened this thread in the opensuse-web mailing list as well, but no one has replied there as yet.
I'm staff on the forums, I can try to get that addressed if I can reproduce the issue.
Those two bugs are web site bugs. If you have power to alter the site, then whoever has the power to give you access to those two bugs needs to do so. They contain the foundation of my complaint. Incompetence was a word choice that applies to the web generally, not specifically to opensuse.org. Competently designed web sites don't induce users to use heroic measures to compensate for stupid and rude site styles, such as those described in those two bugs and in http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/SUSE/css.txt which contains the entirety of the highly burdensome 155k+ of opensuse.org CSS saved to disk as web page complete with Gecko from http://forums.opensuse.org/english/get-technical-help-here/install-boot-logi.... https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=454975 shows what 408396-cups-deamon-not-accessable.html looks like on one of my systems without any rudeness countermeasures applied. The dominant text size is a small fraction of the UA's UI text size, which is a smaller size than the UA's default size, for a net result of painful to use, if not totally illegible. My need to return to various opensuse.org pages on a recurring basis makes temporary defenses like minimum text size and zoom worse than sub-optimal. So, I use site specific user styles as a long term defense mechanism. The current version of user CSS applied specifically to the site consists of http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/SUSE/opensusebase.css and http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/SUSE/opensusemb.css, in conjunction with my generic user CSS at http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/SUSE/userContent.css, and are necessary to have a chance to reproduce. Reproduction should not be necessary to correction, as no user defenses would be necessary at all if both those two bugs and the broader problem they describe were fixed and remained so across site facelifts. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 06 Oct 2011 21:20:40 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/10/06 17:34 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2011 23:09:39 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
After seeing "unable to open listen socket for address ::1:631 - Address family not supported by protocol" in /var/log/cups/error_log, Google told me goto http://forums.opensuse.org/english/get-technical-help-here/install- boot-login/408396-cups-deamon-not-accessable.html and http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:GDI_Printers to figure out why I can't print with my Canon GDI, but instead of help I just see the incompetent results of incompetent site styles: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/opensuseforumsmess01.jpg
That screenshot is now available at https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=454976
Thanks, I assume that's attached to the bug as well?
I don't have access to that bug, but just to be clear, I'm talking about the display issue you saw in the forums, not the printing issue. Since
That's why I opened this thread in the opensuse-web mailing list as well, but no one has replied there as yet.
If it's a broader issue across the various openSUSE websites, then that's certainly appropriate. I (nor as far as I know, any of the forums staff) subscribe to that list, so if it's forums specific, that issue doesn't get raised with us unless someone tells us about it.
I'm staff on the forums, I can try to get that addressed if I can reproduce the issue.
Those two bugs are web site bugs. If you have power to alter the site, then whoever has the power to give you access to those two bugs needs to do so. They contain the foundation of my complaint.
My role is as a non-technical administrator for the site, but the three of us in that role have responsibility to ensure stuff like this is at least on the "to do" list for Kim, the technical admin.
are necessary to have a chance to reproduce. Reproduction should not be necessary to correction, as no user defenses would be necessary at all if both those two bugs and the broader problem they describe were fixed and remained so across site facelifts.
I've only been troubleshooting technical systems for about 20 years, but it's been my experience that problems are far, FAR easier to resolve if they can be reproduced by the people working on them. As you seem to be the only user that I'm aware of who has to deploy "user defenses" in order to use the site, it seems like the problem is probably in your configuration, so to reproduce it (and hence attempt to resolve it with some knowledge of how you managed to get to see something that apparently nobody else sees), it would be useful if we could get some information about that configuration so it can be reproduced. We can argue the merits of reproducing a problem or not on how necessary it is to technically resolve an issue, but I can tell you that passing the information along to the responsible IS&T organization, *they will want steps to reproduce the problem*, and without that, they'll do something where they've been given what they're asking for. Which means I'm going to ask for that information to pass along to them before trying to escalate the problem. Fair enough? Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2011/10/07 04:06 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
to reproduce it (and hence attempt to resolve it with some knowledge of how you managed to get to see something that apparently nobody else sees), it would be useful if we could get some information about that configuration so it can be reproduced.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=646418#c6 contains reproduction steps for https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=454976 aka http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/opensuseforumsmess01.jpg -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/10/07 04:06 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
to reproduce it (and hence attempt to resolve it with some knowledge of how you managed to get to see something that apparently nobody else sees), it would be useful if we could get some information about that configuration so it can be reproduced.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=646418#c6 contains reproduction steps for https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=454976 aka http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/opensuseforumsmess01.jpg
I don't know how to "open a 120 DPI desktop" ? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (10.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/10/07 04:06 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
to reproduce it (and hence attempt to resolve it with some knowledge of how you managed to get to see something that apparently nobody else sees), it would be useful if we could get some information about that configuration so it can be reproduced.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=646418#c6 contains reproduction steps for https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=454976 aka http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/opensuseforumsmess01.jpg
I don't know how to "open a 120 DPI desktop" ?
Hmm, I tried to get seamonkey running - I installed it, but all I got when I tried to start the first time was a _completely_ hung system. Didn't even respond to Ctrl-Alt-Sysrq. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.0°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/10/07 04:06 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
to reproduce it (and hence attempt to resolve it with some knowledge of how you managed to get to see something that apparently nobody else sees), it would be useful if we could get some information about that configuration so it can be reproduced.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=646418#c6 contains reproduction steps for https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=454976 aka http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/opensuseforumsmess01.jpg
I don't know how to "open a 120 DPI desktop" ?
Hmm, I tried to get seamonkey running - I installed it, but all I got when I tried to start the first time was a _completely_ hung system. Didn't even respond to Ctrl-Alt-Sysrq.
Okay, must have been a fluke. Still two things I don't know how to do - 1 - open a 120 DPI desktop 2 - unpack the content of thisattachment into a Gecko profile's chrome directory Where/what is "a Gecko profile's chrome directory" ? It doesn't seem to have one by default. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (10.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dave Howorth wrote:
Per Jessen wrote:
Where/what is "a Gecko profile's chrome directory" ? It doesn't seem to have one by default.
~/.mozilla/firefox/some-random-hex.default/chrome/
Thanks - with that I can confirm the problem as described by Felix. (I didnd't do anything to get the 120DPI desktop). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/10/07 04:06 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
to reproduce it (and hence attempt to resolve it with some knowledge of how you managed to get to see something that apparently nobody else sees), it would be useful if we could get some information about that configuration so it can be reproduced. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=646418#c6 contains reproduction steps for https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=454976 aka http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/opensuseforumsmess01.jpg
I don't know how to "open a 120 DPI desktop" ?
I believe you have to go to a shop and buy a new monitor that has that resolution! FWIW, I've been skimming this thread and have finally reached a point where I understand it, since the link to the bugzilla above does work for me too. So here's my summary of how I perceive the thread for anybody else skimming through. Felix is complaining about the font size design on the forum website and on other suse websites. He finds the fonts are too small to read and also finds that the way the CSS has been implemented makes it difficult for him to override it to get a legible result. I agree with Felix both about the small font size problem and about the poor CSS design. My eyes are none too good and I often have to enlarge the text on websites, including these ones, in order to be able to read them. Fortunately for me, I only have a 96 dpi monitor instead of a high-res super-duper 120 dpi one, so the use of pixel (px) measurements doesn't cause me as much grief in doing so. But I don't think Felix is doing himself any favours in the way he has set about trying to get attention for the problem. For whatever reason, many of his comments have come across as unnecessarily antagonistic and I think other people, especially Jim, have shown notable patience and forbearance in dealing with the issue. I hope it will lead to a solution. I'm just glad I don't use the vbulletin CSS in my work. It looks like a rats nest. Cheers, Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2011/10/07 11:13 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:
I don't know how to "open a 120 DPI desktop" ?
What follows really belongs on a Wiki page. For any not privy to _why_ to open a 120 DPI desktop, the reason is that it is an unofficial but very highly effective way to scale desktop object sizes up or down while keeping the entirety of the desktop itself confined to the display's physical boundaries. Depending on the DTE and the various objects on it, scaling can have some unwelcome consequences to go along the primary positive one of making smaller stuff like icons and UI text comfortable to work with, typically making them bigger for use on a higher than average pixel density display device. Regardless what the physical pixel density and numerical resolution of the display device are, X can be directed to assume that they are something else. By raising X's working DPI, objects are made bigger, and vice versa by lowering it. One example is 12pt text @ 96 DPI is 16 pixels, which becomes 20 pixels instead @ 120 DPI, 24 pixels @ 144 DPI, and 32 pixels at 192 DPI. Note that a 32 pixel size is actually a fourfold increase in size over 16 pixels, because size is a function of area, height and width, not just the nominal 16px so-called "size". That means a 32 pixel character box nominally has 512 (32 high X 16 wide) pixels to draw with, compared to 128 (16 high X 8 wide) for a 16px box. The impact of this is significant WRT to text quality. At large enough sizes, anti-aliasing, hinting and other font smoothing apparatus become irrelevant. Forcing DPI is an effective overall DTE scaler, whether it's because eyesight deviates from average, preferred distance to display is closer or farther than average, need is present to work around font rendering anomalies, or need exists to test other environmental factors, like what happens to users of high DPI devices trying to use apps and DTEs designed and/or tested only by and/or for users of the 96 DPI assumption standard. How to get X to use a particular DPI depends on distro, version, X version, video hardware, & video driver, though not necessarily all at once. DPI is often forced to 96 (the default in Windows, and what all current browsers except Konqueror do within their viewports), and discovering how the forcing occurs in order to undo it is not straightforward, so I won't get into that discovery process at all here. If you are not using proprietary NVidia drivers, the most reliable method of forcing DPI is to set DisplaySize in either xorg.conf or in whichever xorg.conf.d/ file contains 'Identifier "MonitorXXX"'. In openSUSE releases that file is 50-monitor.conf. In openSUSE, for placement in 50-monitor.conf to work, 50-screen.conf and 50-device.conf must contain valid actual content (commented lines do not count as valid actual content). Example 50-monitor.conf file: Section "Monitor" Identifier "Monitor[0]" DisplaySize 378 284 # 120 DPI @ 1792x1344 EndSection The same DisplaySize line as above would work equally well in an otherwise valid xorg.conf file. This method requires precalulating the horizontal and vertical dimensions required in combination with the desired resolution to get the desired DPI. Many of these I've already done in http://fm.no-ip.com/share/DisplaySize to make it simpler for whose who know about it and/or aren't so good with math. If using proprietary NVidia drivers, DPI can be set explicitly in its xorg.conf or /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/20-nvidia.conf Example of latter: Section "Device" Identifier "Default Device" Option "UseEdidDpi" "False" Option "DPI" "120 x 120" EndSection For further reading: http://fm.no-ip.com/PC/fonts-linux-about.html -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/7/2011 3:00 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
One example is 12pt text @ 96 DPI is 16 pixels, which becomes 20 pixels instead @ 120 DP
Seems Counter intuitive. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2011/10/07 15:06 (GMT-0700) John Andersen composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
One example is 12pt text @ 96 DPI is 16 pixels, which becomes 20 pixels instead @ 120 DP
Seems Counter intuitive.
See if http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/area80.html is any help. Remember, higher density (higher DPI) means more stuff crammed into the same space, or the same amount of stuff crammed into a smaller space. Assuming the display device's dot pitch isn't too big, higher also means higher drawing accuracy, and thus higher quality, which with text means smaller jaggies, if any, and less or no need for font smoothing. See also: http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Moz/absolute-sizes-M.html http://fm.no-ip.com/Images/FontSizeEquiv1600x1200.png http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/fonts-pt2px.html -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/7/2011 3:41 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/10/07 15:06 (GMT-0700) John Andersen composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
One example is 12pt text @ 96 DPI is 16 pixels, which becomes 20 pixels instead @ 120 DP
Seems Counter intuitive.
See if http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/area80.html is any help. Remember, higher density (higher DPI) means more stuff crammed into the same space, or the same amount of stuff crammed into a smaller space. Assuming the display device's dot pitch isn't too big, higher also means higher drawing accuracy, and thus higher quality, which with text means smaller jaggies, if any, and less or no need for font smoothing.
That much makes sense. But why then, would 12 point text at 16 pixels balloon to 20 pixels? That doesn't square with "more stuff crammed into the same space or the same amount of stuff crammed into smaller space". -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
12 points = 16 pixels. If you increase your DPI by 25 percent (96 * 1.25 = 120) the same effect will apply to the fonts (16px * 1.25 = 20px). Since the DPI of your display didn't change, the font now appears bigger. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2011/10/07 17:13 (GMT-0700) John Andersen composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/10/07 15:06 (GMT-0700) John Andersen composed:
Felix Miata wrote:
One example is 12pt text @ 96 DPI is 16 pixels, which becomes 20 pixels instead @ 120 DP
Seems Counter intuitive.
See if http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/area80.html is any help. Remember, higher density (higher DPI) means more stuff crammed into the same space, or the same amount of stuff crammed into a smaller space. Assuming the display device's dot pitch isn't too big, higher also means higher drawing accuracy, and thus higher quality, which with text means smaller jaggies, if any, and less or no need for font smoothing.
That much makes sense. But why then, would 12 point text at 16 pixels balloon to 20 pixels? That doesn't square with "more stuff crammed into the same space or the same amount of stuff crammed into smaller space".
Assuming accuracy (which on a puter display is the exception rather than the rule, unlike on a printed page, where accuracy is high), one point = 1/72". With each px taking up less space at higher density (120 DPI vs 96 DPI), it takes more of them to fill a given space (more stuff, 20px, crammed into given space of 12pt). -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/10/07 11:13 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:
I don't know how to "open a 120 DPI desktop" ?
What follows really belongs on a Wiki page.
For any not privy to _why_ to open a 120 DPI desktop, the reason is that it is an unofficial but very highly effective way to scale desktop object sizes up or down while keeping the entirety of the desktop itself confined to the display's physical boundaries.
Officially -- it's one of the ways Windows 7 uses to do complete desktop rescaling. It also supports an older XP model that only resized/scaled text, which resulted in bad output on any progs not using the windows libs to display text... (like most 3rd party apps!)... In essence, you are telling windows to display things as though your screen was 120-dpi. So if if your screen is really 100dpi, then everything will be 20% larger than it should be. But the boundaries of your screen are still based on the physical pixels, thus your desktop content is resized. It's ALOT like the difference between the enlarge text and enlarge all feature built into Firefox. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 04:28:37 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/10/07 04:06 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
to reproduce it (and hence attempt to resolve it with some knowledge of how you managed to get to see something that apparently nobody else sees), it would be useful if we could get some information about that configuration so it can be reproduced.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=646418#c6 contains reproduction steps for https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=454976 aka http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/opensuseforumsmess01.jpg -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Thanks. I've now been able to view the bug as well - I have similar questions to Per's about how to reproduce the 120 dpi desktop (which I see Dave has tried to help answer as well). But I also see that the crux of the issue is the font sizes being defined in px, which doesn't account for high dpi configurations and resolutions. That seems a fair complaint. I'm not quite sure how it relates to the mess that you saw in that forum post, though. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday, October 07, 2011 01:20:08 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
That seems a fair complaint. I'm not quite sure how it relates to the mess that you saw in that forum post, though.
Usual way to get in a trouble is when room for text is defined in px instead of em. Definition in px instructs browser to reserve absolute height value for text line, instead of relative like it is with em. Text will look good only if character is smaller then allotted space, if it is bigger lines are written one over another. And I have to agree that our css (wiki) is monster. I lost time trying to locate code that defines some css elements that are not properly rendered in the wiki, and gave up. It requires web page pro to decipher it, not amateurs. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 19:38:06 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Friday, October 07, 2011 01:20:08 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
That seems a fair complaint. I'm not quite sure how it relates to the mess that you saw in that forum post, though.
Usual way to get in a trouble is when room for text is defined in px instead of em.
Definition in px instructs browser to reserve absolute height value for text line, instead of relative like it is with em. Text will look good only if character is smaller then allotted space, if it is bigger lines are written one over another.
And I have to agree that our css (wiki) is monster. I lost time trying to locate code that defines some css elements that are not properly rendered in the wiki, and gave up. It requires web page pro to decipher it, not amateurs.
I guess the underlying question then becomes who is responsible for maintaining the CSS. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday, October 07, 2011 10:56:25 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
I guess the underlying question then becomes who is responsible for maintaining the CSS.
We all :) Which as usually converts to no one. CBoltz is trying to initiate some activity for the wiki CSS, which will make css file even bigger, but pages will be more uniform. Response is not inspiring and that is his second attempt to improve wiki templates/css. I don't live from any web or IT related activity, so I can't be effective as people that do that for living. On things that I can't give a patch, which is majority, I file a bug report with enough details to reproduce. After some time and few answers that are looking for someone else to jump in, I got tired even from reporting. In this list I see a lot of people willing to help and not too many with skills: https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/groups/14751/wiki-maintainers/ http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Wiki_team#Members -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 13:19:03 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Friday, October 07, 2011 10:56:25 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
I guess the underlying question then becomes who is responsible for maintaining the CSS.
We all :) Which as usually converts to no one.
CBoltz is trying to initiate some activity for the wiki CSS, which will make css file even bigger, but pages will be more uniform. Response is not inspiring and that is his second attempt to improve wiki templates/css.
I don't live from any web or IT related activity, so I can't be effective as people that do that for living. On things that I can't give a patch, which is majority, I file a bug report with enough details to reproduce. After some time and few answers that are looking for someone else to jump in, I got tired even from reporting.
In this list I see a lot of people willing to help and not too many with skills: https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/groups/14751/wiki-maintainers/ http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Wiki_team#Members
Hmmm, interesting. That would explain the lack of movement on it. Looks like some recruitment might be in order - but I wonder where the code originated from. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Saturday, October 08, 2011 04:09:26 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
Looks like some recruitment might be in order - but I wonder where the code originated from.
Robert Lihm made initial css that was slightly changed later. Now it is located at: https://gitorious.org/opensuse/ where you have to scroll trough bunch of titles to find those that you are interested in. I'll list later on the wiki all web design related stuff that I can find there. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 16:46:23 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday, October 08, 2011 04:09:26 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
Looks like some recruitment might be in order - but I wonder where the code originated from.
Robert Lihm made initial css that was slightly changed later. Now it is located at: https://gitorious.org/opensuse/ where you have to scroll trough bunch of titles to find those that you are interested in.
I'll list later on the wiki all web design related stuff that I can find there.
Thanks! Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Saturday, October 08, 2011 04:50:46 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
I'll list later on the wiki all web design related stuff that I can find there.
Thanks!
Check and see did I missed something. http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Web_design_resources -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 23:48:04 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday, October 08, 2011 04:50:46 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
I'll list later on the wiki all web design related stuff that I can find there.
Thanks!
Check and see did I missed something.
That looks very useful, but the http(s) links should lose the '.git' suffix - those links return 404s. I assume the css is located in the 'shared-resources'? Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday, October 16, 2011 10:22:54 PM Jim Henderson wrote: ...
That looks very useful, but the http(s) links should lose the '.git' suffix - those links return 404s.
Fixed.
I assume the css is located in the 'shared-resources'?
I don't know where it is. I have to clone repos to local git repo to speed up browsing as preview works only on a local copy :)
Jim
-- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 16 Oct 2011 23:02:13 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday, October 16, 2011 10:22:54 PM Jim Henderson wrote: ...
That looks very useful, but the http(s) links should lose the '.git' suffix - those links return 404s.
Fixed.
Thanks!
I assume the css is located in the 'shared-resources'?
I don't know where it is. I have to clone repos to local git repo to speed up browsing as preview works only on a local copy :)
I'll take some time later this week to clone it and see if I can find where it is. I'm not a CSS expert by any stretch, so if we have someone who knows how to fix it in the actual CSS (Felix, perhaps?) is there some place we can test the changes out that you are aware of? (I guess I'm asking 'do we have a staging server?') Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday, October 17, 2011 05:03:31 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
(I guess I'm asking 'do we have a staging server?')
Not really. There is, but it is not accessible from outside of corporate network. Also, there are plans to move services hosted by Novell to SUSE, which is what I'm waiting for. Currently, even low hanging fruits are waiting to be fixed. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:53:23 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Monday, October 17, 2011 05:03:31 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
(I guess I'm asking 'do we have a staging server?')
Not really. There is, but it is not accessible from outside of corporate network.
Also, there are plans to move services hosted by Novell to SUSE, which is what I'm waiting for. Currently, even low hanging fruits are waiting to be fixed.
I know that's been the case for a while - really since ACS took over the IS&T side of things (in some cases - not sure if that's entirely the issue for the SUSE side of things). Does this plan to move services involve relocating some from the US to Germany, that you're aware of? Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday, October 17, 2011 10:50:09 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
... I know that's been the case for a while - really since ACS took over the IS&T side of things (in some cases - not sure if that's entirely the issue for the SUSE side of things).
I'm not sure what is ACS. On wiki side of things we had good and very engaged admin (Matthew Ehle) for a while, but since he left there was no much activity.
Does this plan to move services involve relocating some from the US to Germany, that you're aware of?
I know very little, to be honest. This is all I know: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Server_move https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=683969 Also, there is opensuse-web@opensuse.org that would be right place to talk about this. At least it will see some traffic :) -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 23:33:01 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Monday, October 17, 2011 10:50:09 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
... I know that's been the case for a while - really since ACS took over the IS&T side of things (in some cases - not sure if that's entirely the issue for the SUSE side of things).
I'm not sure what is ACS. On wiki side of things we had good and very engaged admin (Matthew Ehle) for a while, but since he left there was no much activity.
Sorry, ACS = Affiliated Computer Services (now a division of Xerox). A couple of years ago, Novell outsourced a large portion of their IS&T to ACS.
Does this plan to move services involve relocating some from the US to Germany, that you're aware of?
I know very little, to be honest. This is all I know: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Server_move https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=683969
Also, there is opensuse-web@opensuse.org that would be right place to talk about this. At least it will see some traffic :)
Agree, I'll look and see if that list is on gmane and sub it if it isn't. That is a much better place (or the project list would be, too, for that matter - perhaps highlighting Robert's discussion point on the project list) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday, October 19, 2011 08:16:25 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
That is a much better place (or the project list would be, too, for that matter - perhaps highlighting Robert's discussion point on the project list)
As Robert already started general discussion about improvements we can use that to add ideas, but when general part is done there further discussion related to web presence should happen on opensuse-web. As mentioned I Robert's email, wiki list should be merged to web list, to put together all people that know something about web. Wiki list served fine when wiki was the only type of web presence, now it is just standing in the way. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:01:29 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Wednesday, October 19, 2011 08:16:25 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
That is a much better place (or the project list would be, too, for that matter - perhaps highlighting Robert's discussion point on the project list)
As Robert already started general discussion about improvements we can use that to add ideas, but when general part is done there further discussion related to web presence should happen on opensuse-web.
As mentioned I Robert's email, wiki list should be merged to web list, to put together all people that know something about web. Wiki list served fine when wiki was the only type of web presence, now it is just standing in the way.
Sounds good, thanks. :) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Tue, 18 Oct 2011, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:53:23 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Monday, October 17, 2011 05:03:31 PM Jim Henderson wrote: I know that's been the case for a while - really since ACS took over the IS&T side of things (in some cases - not sure if that's entirely the issue for the SUSE side of things).
Does this plan to move services involve relocating some from the US to Germany, that you're aware of?
They're not that many anyway, much remained in .de when SUSE was bought by Novell. A little digging with traceroute and whois on some relevant hosts tells me that e.g. the subdomains/hosts: www, en, news (all 130.57.4.24), forums (130.57.4.15) are reached (from here, and now) via 11 0.so-5-1-0.XT2.DEN4.ALTER.NET (152.63.1.138) 12 POS7-0.GW3.DEN4.ALTER.NET (152.63.72.73) 13 unknown.customer.alter.net (65.206.183.22) 14 192.94.118.247 so seem to be hosted at a Novell.com site in Denver, USA. The subdomains/hosts: login, features (195.135.221.133), lists (195.135.221.135), software (195.135.221.150), download (195.135.221.134), build (195.135.221.133), bugs, doc (195.135.221.140), connect (195.135.221.34), static (195.135.221.143), the last of which is notable as it hosts static webcontent (e.g. graphics) for www and the <LANG> subsites etc. are all reached (from here, and now) via 7 Tenge1-2-56.cr2.NBG2.content-core.net (212.123.123.213) 8 fe-5-1-4.nue1-inet-cisco2.suse.de (212.123.111.28) so they all are at the SUSE site in Nuremburg, Germany ("NBG" is a common abbreviation for Nuremburg and NUE is the IATA-Code for the airport Nürnberg (Nuremberg)). I haven't looked up by/via what host(s) the Novell ICS login for bugzilla etc. is handled. Remember: all those hosts/IPs might be loadbalanced and whatnot. So, I guess, there are not that many services to be moved anyway. HTH, -dnh -- Two atoms are walking along. Suddenly, one stops. The other says, "What's wrong?" "I've lost an electron." "Are you sure?" "I'm positive!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:08:34 +0200, David Haller wrote:
Hello,
On Tue, 18 Oct 2011, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:53:23 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Monday, October 17, 2011 05:03:31 PM Jim Henderson wrote: I know that's been the case for a while - really since ACS took over the IS&T side of things (in some cases - not sure if that's entirely the issue for the SUSE side of things).
Does this plan to move services involve relocating some from the US to Germany, that you're aware of?
They're not that many anyway, much remained in .de when SUSE was bought by Novell. A little digging with traceroute and whois on some relevant hosts tells me that e.g. the subdomains/hosts:
www, en, news (all 130.57.4.24), forums (130.57.4.15)
are reached (from here, and now) via
11 0.so-5-1-0.XT2.DEN4.ALTER.NET (152.63.1.138) 12 POS7-0.GW3.DEN4.ALTER.NET (152.63.72.73) 13 unknown.customer.alter.net (65.206.183.22) 14 192.94.118.247
so seem to be hosted at a Novell.com site in Denver, USA.
That geolocation is probably incorrect, as I tihnk most of those (certainly the 130.57 addresses) are in the Novell DMZ in Provo. forums.novell.com is also in that area - for both the web and NNTP interfaces. However, they're leveraging existing infrastructure, so not sure that they should/would be moved.
The subdomains/hosts:
login, features (195.135.221.133), lists (195.135.221.135), software (195.135.221.150), download (195.135.221.134), build (195.135.221.133), bugs, doc (195.135.221.140), connect (195.135.221.34), static (195.135.221.143), the last of which is notable as it hosts static webcontent (e.g. graphics) for www and the <LANG> subsites etc.
are all reached (from here, and now) via 7 Tenge1-2-56.cr2.NBG2.content-core.net (212.123.123.213) 8 fe-5-1-4.nue1-inet-cisco2.suse.de (212.123.111.28)
so they all are at the SUSE site in Nuremburg, Germany ("NBG" is a common abbreviation for Nuremburg and NUE is the IATA-Code for the airport Nürnberg (Nuremberg)).
I haven't looked up by/via what host(s) the Novell ICS login for bugzilla etc. is handled.
Remember: all those hosts/IPs might be loadbalanced and whatnot.
So, I guess, there are not that many services to be moved anyway.
That's probably the case. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2011/10/17 22:03 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
I'm not a CSS expert by any stretch, so if we have someone who knows how to fix it in the actual CSS (Felix, perhaps?)
Normally I could and would like to help, but the complexity of its 155k weight puts it well beyond my capability or interest. 155k is roughly 5X the most CSS any site ought to need, and probably requires someone completely devoted to the task to understand and manage. IMO, starting from scratch is most likely appropriate here. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 21:32:14 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/10/17 22:03 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
I'm not a CSS expert by any stretch, so if we have someone who knows how to fix it in the actual CSS (Felix, perhaps?)
Normally I could and would like to help, but the complexity of its 155k weight puts it well beyond my capability or interest. 155k is roughly 5X the most CSS any site ought to need, and probably requires someone completely devoted to the task to understand and manage. IMO, starting from scratch is most likely appropriate here.
Perhaps the thing to do would be to start from scratch then, perhaps propose a set of CSS that has a similar look/feel but without the accessibility issues? That would really help get things moving forward, I think - Rajko, what do you think? Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday, October 17, 2011 10:51:24 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
That would really help get things moving forward, I think - Rajko, what do you think?
Starting from scratch is possible, but it is huge task that will not work without consensus from many involved. There are multiple web sites with different software behind and current status, even when not perfect, is result of a lot of work. As Felix mentioned it will require long term devotion and quite good skills to redesign that all. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 23:51:39 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Monday, October 17, 2011 10:51:24 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
That would really help get things moving forward, I think - Rajko, what do you think?
Starting from scratch is possible, but it is huge task that will not work without consensus from many involved. There are multiple web sites with different software behind and current status, even when not perfect, is result of a lot of work.
All of that is true. We really need to find a good CSS expert who can design something that's lightweight and works more or less universally without a lot of tweaking. I think probably the best approach is to find someone with the necessary skills, have them develop something with a similar look and feel to what we have (without the accessibility issues), and use that as a base. If we start by trying to redesign the entire CSS from scratch and by committee, it'll never get done.
As Felix mentioned it will require long term devotion and quite good skills to redesign that all.
Indeed. Perhaps best to move this over to the web list as discussed elsewhere in this thread. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Rajko M. said the following on 10/08/2011 02:19 PM:
On Friday, October 07, 2011 10:56:25 PM Jim Henderson wrote:
I guess the underlying question then becomes who is responsible for maintaining the CSS.
We all :) Which as usually converts to no one.
CBoltz is trying to initiate some activity for the wiki CSS, which will make css file even bigger, but pages will be more uniform. Response is not inspiring and that is his second attempt to improve wiki templates/css.
That there some tool for CSS, like 'tidy' for HTML, whihc will factor out and refactor and generally DRY-up things? Google gives me http://csstidy.sourceforge.net/ http://www.cleancss.com/ https://github.com/geuis/helium-css Has anyone tried them? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2011/10/07 18:20 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 04:28:37 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2011/10/07 04:06 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
to reproduce it (and hence attempt to resolve it with some knowledge of how you managed to get to see something that apparently nobody else sees), it would be useful if we could get some information about that configuration so it can be reproduced.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=646418#c6 contains reproduction steps for https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=454976 aka http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/opensuseforumsmess01.jpg
I've now been able to view the bug as well - I have similar questions to Per's about how to reproduce the 120 dpi desktop (which I see Dave has tried to help answer as well).
Hopefully upthread on 2011/10/07 18:00 (GMT-0400) I answered this to your satisfaction.
But I also see that the crux of the issue is the font sizes being defined in px, which doesn't account for high dpi configurations and resolutions.
Actually that's inaccurate. Defining size in px is a special problem for users of old IE versions, because those browsers disobey most available mechanisms designed to enlarge text sized using px. For everyone else, the difference between sizing in px, pt, mm, in, etc. and other sizing methods is primarily one of degree and methodology: sizing in px or pt or mm or the like totally disregards whatever the visitor's browser default(s) is/are set to vs. sizing the major portion of page text in keywords, %, rem, em or ex values other than medium (keywords), 100(%), 1(rem), 1(em), or ~2(ex) is an imposition on the visitor that assumes her browser default(s) is/are inappropriately set (in most cases, assumed too large by the site's stylist). In either case, all except users of old IE versions can _resize_ the page's text. Resizing is a defense, which like most defenses, is unnecessary to apply in the absence of offensive behavior (disrespect of browser defaults). Some problems are these: 1-disregarding defaults entirely (px, pt, mm, in, etc) is rude 2-assuming defaults are wrong is rude 3-that most web sites do 1 or 2 above is not justification to be rude 4-application of defenses requires reactive user activity, typically preventing and/or delaying use of a just loaded page 5-applying browser defenses to overcome the rudeness (minimum font size; zoom; user CSS) often has side effects that are similarly rude, and can even make a page completely unusable 6-that WCAG 2 does not directly address all the above is reprehensible inaction from a standards body
That seems a fair complaint. I'm not quite sure how it relates to the mess that you saw in that forum post, though.
As I wrote upthread on 2011/10/06 21:20 -0400, it's about the impossible task of developing user styles capable of automatically counteracting the 150k+ of site styles to undo the site's mousetype. In case it didn't get your attention, the purpose of https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=454975 is to show that the majority of forum content text is a small fraction of the size of the browser's (10pt) UI text, and a smaller fraction of the the browser's (12pt) default proportional size. The only forum text that isn't smaller is the relative behemoth thread titling. The problem isn't just that the browser defaults aren't respected, but how severely they are disrespected by a relatively mild (25%) deviation from the 96 DPI "norm". 120 DPI isn't all that high. Laptops 133 DPI or higher, and other devices higher still, are not at all unusual any more, and are more severely affected. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 22:39:12 -0400
Felix Miata
On 2011/10/07 22:17 (GMT-0500) Malcolm composed:
On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 22:39:12 -0400 Felix Miata wrote:
As an aside to your issue, you do realize that the forums have nntp access, so this could be used as an alternative?
1-I had no idea. It's good to know, even though it's been a lot of years since I started using SUSE and participating in openSUSE mailing lists. 2-I don't go to the forums to search for answers, much less participate. I was looking for a print problem solution, and that's where Google sent me, a common result of Googling for solutions to openSUSE problems, a near opposite of the openSUSE mailing list archives. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 07 Oct 2011 22:39:12 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
I've now been able to view the bug as well - I have similar questions to Per's about how to reproduce the 120 dpi desktop (which I see Dave has tried to help answer as well).
Hopefully upthread on 2011/10/07 18:00 (GMT-0400) I answered this to your satisfaction.
Yes. I'll have to try to take some time reproducing it myself, and I'll be unable to do so next week, so perhaps someone who works on the CSS can pick it up and run with it.
That seems a fair complaint. I'm not quite sure how it relates to the mess that you saw in that forum post, though.
As I wrote upthread on 2011/10/06 21:20 -0400, it's about the impossible task of developing user styles capable of automatically counteracting the 150k+ of site styles to undo the site's mousetype.
In case it didn't get your attention, the purpose of https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=454975 is to show that the majority of forum content text is a small fraction of the size of the browser's (10pt) UI text, and a smaller fraction of the the browser's (12pt) default proportional size. The only forum text that isn't smaller is the relative behemoth thread titling.
The problem isn't just that the browser defaults aren't respected, but how severely they are disrespected by a relatively mild (25%) deviation from the 96 DPI "norm". 120 DPI isn't all that high. Laptops 133 DPI or higher, and other devices higher still, are not at all unusual any more, and are more severely affected.
However your subject line for this thread really didn't indicate that - it implies that the content you found was no help, not that the hacked-up CSS you've put in place to try to address a font size issue that affects more than just the forums is causing some kind of display issue that makes the page unreadable. You can't really hold anyone but yourself responsible for CSS you developed to work around a problem causing a problem with viewing the sites. The first step in troubleshooting would be to remove your custom CSS and see if the output can be reproduced without it. If it can't (which appears to be the case), then blaming the forums for that particular display output is going to be seen as disingenuous. Which is not to say that the underlying issue (in the bug you reported) is not an issue. So your subject line here was at the minimum an inaccurate statement of the problem and as such was somewhat misleading. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2011/10/08 04:04 (GMT) Jim Henderson composed:
your subject line for this thread really didn't indicate that - it implies that the content you found was no help, not that the hacked-up CSS you've put in place to try to address a font size issue that affects more than just the forums is causing some kind of display issue that makes the page unreadable. You can't really hold anyone but yourself responsible for CSS you developed to work around a problem causing a problem with viewing the sites.
My OP was a two parter posted to two lists. The discussion of the illegibility should have been discussed on the opensuse-web list, where no one as yet has responded. The other part in the context of that list was to provide context for describing the problem. Needing useful help on the printing problem should have been the sole point anyone discussed on the general opensuse list, where the discussion of the trouble with the forum page constituted no more than a reason for asking for a plan to solve the printing problem itself.
The first step in troubleshooting would be to remove your custom CSS and see if the output can be reproduced without it. If it can't (which appears to be the case), then blaming the forums for that particular display output is going to be seen as disingenuous.
Of course it can't be reproduced without it. It only happens because it's impossible to get user CSS to work right when it has to fight against a 150k mountain of site CSS.
Which is not to say that the underlying issue (in the bug you reported) is not an issue.
So your subject line here was at the minimum an inaccurate statement of the problem and as such was somewhat misleading.
It would have been OK if the discussion had been kept topical by list, but it wasn't. As yet there's been no on-topic discussion, as discussion of the forum's CSS and its interaction with mine is not on topic here, and no one's suggested where I should look for a solution to the printing problem described in the OP of 11/10/05 23:09 -0400. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 00:42:52 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
Needing useful help on the printing problem should have been the sole point anyone discussed on the general opensuse list, where the discussion of the trouble with the forum page constituted no more than a reason for asking for a plan to solve the printing problem itself.
Respectfully, if that's the discussion you wanted, you should have limited your respective inquiries to the appropriate lists. It's generally considered bad form to combine multiple queries into a single message, post the message to multiple venues, and expect the readers to sort out what you wanted discussed in which venue.
The first step in troubleshooting would be to remove your custom CSS and see if the output can be reproduced without it. If it can't (which appears to be the case), then blaming the forums for that particular display output is going to be seen as disingenuous.
Of course it can't be reproduced without it. It only happens because it's impossible to get user CSS to work right when it has to fight against a 150k mountain of site CSS.
Then that should've been the focus of what you were complaining about, rather than complaining about a self-inflicted problem caused by trying to work around the display issue. "help forum no help" is antagonistic and in this instance, unnecessary. Your problem wasn't with the help in the forums (so far as I can tell) but with the presentation problem that was self-inflicted with your custom user CSS (whether it is to work around an issue you've identified and previously reported is not really relevant). With regards to the original printing problem, perhaps start with the forum post *without* your custom CSS (use a screen magnifier or some other tool to read the small print) and use that as a starting point. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Fri, 07 Oct 2011, Felix Miata wrote:
Some problems are these:
1-disregarding defaults entirely (px, pt, mm, in, etc) is rude 2-assuming defaults are wrong is rude 3-that most web sites do 1 or 2 above is not justification to be rude 4-application of defenses requires reactive user activity, typically preventing and/or delaying use of a just loaded page 5-applying browser defenses to overcome the rudeness (minimum font size; zoom; user CSS) often has side effects that are similarly rude, and can even make a page completely unusable 6-that WCAG 2 does not directly address all the above is reprehensible inaction from a standards body
Full ACK. I use mainly em (or % or ex) in the single site I maintain, and yay, the site scales (apart from bitmaps, and that's intended that way) as much as you like and honours whatever font and -size you've chosen (it suggests Verdana[0],Helvetica,sans-serif and font-size: 12pt though). Remember: 12pt should be rendered the same on any medium, e.g. the height of an 'I' should be 12pt in height, i.e. ~4.23mm or 1/6 in, no matter what resolution the screen or printer has, so with my "12pt" I suggest a size for the base-font-size of the page. All other sizes (layout, fonts, not bitmaps though) are relative to that basic fontsize of 12pt. A paragraph is set to max-width 45em, which ends up at about 60-70 chars of normal text, h1 has font-size: 2.4em, h2 has 1.7em ... The difficult thing is the inheritance of fontsizes, open this snippet in your browser: ==== <body> <div style="font-size: 48pt"> 48pt <div style="font-size: 1em"> 48pt <div style="font-size: 0.5em"> 24pt <div style="font-size: 0.5em">??? pt</div> <div style="font-size: 1em">??? pt</div> </div> </div> </div> </body> ==== Looks mindbogglig, but, just scale by a multiples of the constant factor of 1.2 or sqrt(1.2) or multiples thereof (or its inverse for smaller sizes) at each step, and you're fine. BTW: that factor is the factor between traditional font-sizes. Compare: ==== <body> <div style="border:1px solid"> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">12pt</span> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">12pt</span> <div style="font-size: 1.2em; border:1px solid;"> <span>1.2em = 14.4pt</span> <span style="font-size: 14.4pt;">14.4pt</span> <div style="font-size: 1.2em; border:1px solid;"> <span>1.2em = 17.28pt</span> <span style="font-size: 17.28pt;">17.28pt</span> <div style="font-size: 1.2em; border:1px solid;"> <span>1.2em = 20.74pt</span> <span style="font-size: 20.74pt;">20.74pt</span> <div style="font-size: 1.2em; border:1px solid;"> <span>1.2em = 24.89pt</span> <span style="font-size: 24.89pt;">24.89pt</span> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </body> ==== Note, that with my seamonkey, I don't get correct sizes at every zoom-step ATM, most notably at 100%. At 200% I get the right progression in sizes. It probably has some weird interactions with X font-handling and -rendering and whichever font is used as well. HTH, -dnh [0] that actually is quite a good font for the screen. And only the screen. PS: that last html stuff looks like some SF e.g. Battlecruiser. Left: drive/engine stuff, middle: more engine, quarters etc., right: some missile/gun arrangements, top right "</span>": the bridge? ;) Ugly, but probably quite nasty ;) -- "Cynical" is a term invented by optimists to describe realists. -- Gregory Benford -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
Can someone please fix the openSUSE web sites to use browser defaults
If you can gie us steps to reproduce, we'll look at it. It's not helpful to use charged words like "incompetent", BTW. Nobody has ever reported seeing something like this (that I can recall), and we have thousands of users who use the site without issues.
Most us live with it or know how to compensate for it.
I don't have access to that bug, but just to be clear, I'm talking about the display issue you saw in the forums, not the printing issue. Since
Incompetence was a word choice that applies to the web generally, not specifically to opensuse.org. Competently designed web sites don't induce users to use heroic measures to compensate for stupid and rude site styles, such as those described in those two bugs and in http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/SUSE/css.txt
Yikes --- ANOTHER classic BAD example of a webdesigner born out of windows programming, and grew up afterwards to web design... ARG!!!... (Ya know the diff from the damaged-windows born ones vs. say, ones who grew up under linux (maybe even mac?) -- where X11, has has DPI in it from the first I saw it in the early 80's. MS programmers were trained to program in pixels. MS brainwashed them in to thinking that 96DPI was a metric standard or something, Trouble is, that brainwashing has done more to harm the progress of monitor development (this from a monitor manufacturer), than any other single factor. Monitors with high DPI were unsuccessful on the market because people complained that the type was too small....and windows wasn't really adjustable. Unfortunately, a legacy of win95 type programmers morphed into web programmers and took their mindset that 96DPI is a standard... IT IS SO PATHETIC, that --- but in HTML5, in order to overcome the stupidity of this entire generation of programmers, DPI was finally defined as 0.125 points (@ 72points/inch). Now they buried the real device pixels under another layer in hopes of those with these bad habits won't notice. --- Anyway, that's the backstory.... What can you do Felix...screaming to everyone really will just make your blood pressure go bad. Even the W3W, rolled over and redefined DPI!...Whatcha gonna do???? Suggestions) 1) get reading glasses with magnifying^w^w^x(strike that) 1) make sure your monitor is set for the right DPI (This will work until you hit about 40-50 years of age most likely) How, get a tape measure and measure the diag.... a) get a tape measure, and measure the visible area of your screen diagonally and let 'dd'=that number. If your tape measure was in cm, let 'cc'=2.54, else if in inches, then 'cc'=1.0 Now in a calculator (if you have a command line shell available and perl installed you can use: perl -e 'for (print "> ";<>;print "> "){ chomp; my $r=eval "$_";if ($@) { print "eval: $@\n"; } else {printf "%s\n", $r}}' (control-d or control-c to exit) At the above "> " prompt (if the perl calc works!)... Type the following but put in your numbers: (xxxx**2+yyyy**2)**.5/dd*c the number you get out should be your screens's DPI: example for a 1920x1080, 24 inch screen:
(1920**2+1080**2)**.5/19*1.0 115.94248263591 or 116 dpi... For a 2560x1600 76.2cm wide screen: (2560**2+1600**2)**.5/76.2*2.54 100.62913207527
or 101... put that number in your Xconfig for the dimensions, or reconfig your windows to use the correct dpi... That should help. To go further...in firefox 3.6 or later, go into the 'about:config' and change layout.css.devPixelsPerPx: .... 1.1 gives about a 10% boost, 1.2 -> 20% (~115dpi screen) 1.25 for a 120dpi screen (125% magnification). If it is not in your about:config, you can add it: as a type 'string' (type integer won't work, as it is not an integer)
which contains the entirety of the highly burdensome 155k+ of opensuse.org CSS saved to disk as web page complete with Gecko from http://forums.opensuse.org/english/get-technical-help-here/install-boot-logi.... https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=454975 shows what 408396-cups-deamon-not-accessable.html looks like on one of my systems without any rudeness countermeasures applied. The dominant text size is a small fraction of the UA's UI text size, which is a smaller size than the UA's default size, for a net result of painful to use, if not totally illegible.
---- The suse website is hardly unique in this regard... I''ve complained about UI issues to the suse folks as well.. like yast2 defaulting to taking up 70% of my dual screen monitor width rather than limiting itself to 1 monitor... (my other monitor is a TV, so I often don't see the other part of it).... He told me to fix my setup and use it with Xinerama and try to set the 2nd screen to a separate X display...*ouch*.... Glad I don't have to deal with that stuff on Windows.... Hopefully you can find some use stuff buried in my attitude... Never anything personally meant to anyone, i'm just a bit moody when I've spent a week working on SW and HW problems rather than doing anything fun... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (11)
-
Anton Aylward -
Dave Howorth -
David Haller -
Felix Miata -
Jim Henderson -
Joaquin Sosa -
John Andersen -
Linda Walsh -
Malcolm -
Per Jessen -
Rajko M.