El dom, 17-02-2008 a las 02:35 -0800, Ben Kevan escribió:

On Sunday 17 February 2008 01:56:37 am Hudibras wrote:

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El dom, 17-02-2008 a las 00:27 -0800, Ben Kevan escribió:

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On Saturday 16 February 2008 05:25:26 pm Scott Newton wrote:

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Hello

After the last two updates of KDE4 konqueror now crashes for me when starting it (it didn't before). The backtrace gives:

I would like to give my opinion on this. Yes, konqueror crashes. I'm using now kde 4.0.62 unstable packages and they're even stabler than kde 4.0.1 stable branch, but konqueror is always crashing. It's the only part not being work properly. Kdm is not configurable at all; "kicker" bar disappeared; konsole is doing many strange things... I don't understand what is happening actually with kde4, really. How long have we waiting to have a really stable kde4?

Cheers, AOP.

again.. what version of qt are you running.

Hi, again, and thank you in advance. This issue wasn't of mine, but dealing with kde4, I'm asking for reasons about it. Yes, I and everybody are running qt 3.91 or rather 4.3.91 so that 4.0.62 can be installed as a requirement. I have said before that kde never did this before, i.e. crashing even in a "stable" version or release. Hence my critics on kde4.

i am guessing 3.91 .. which is pre beta.. don't quote me on that.. but it may be.

i think that would probably be a cause of alot of the crashes. I'm sure! But kde1, kde2 or kde3 weren't like this before. So I'm still not understanding how it's happening in kde4. After all, I want to apologize any probably bad issue (if any) from me, and congratulate all of your work. But Time will be the answer...

Cheers, AOP. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

El lun, 18-02-2008 a las 16:09 +0100, Will Stephenson escribió:

On Sunday 17 February 2008, Hudibras said:

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Hi, again, and thank you in advance. This issue wasn't of mine, but dealing with kde4, I'm asking for reasons about it. Yes, I and everybody are running qt 3.91 or rather 4.3.91 so that 4.0.62 can be installed as a requirement. I have said before that kde never did this before, i.e. crashing even in a "stable" version or release.

Whoa, let me stop you there: 4.0.62 and Qt 4.3.91 are not "stable" or released. They are pre-alpha preview packages, and running them is like running with scissors - sooner or later there will be blood.

Yes! I know! I know! And that's the paradox. I said before that even 4.0.62 (tagged as "unstable") is stabler than 4.0.1 (tagged as "stable"). I took a look to unstable hoping what I expected. The weird thing is that 4.0.1 lacks a lot of features; konqueror still crashing with flash-plugin pages; konsole does not save options changed (cursor, font and other things); "kicker" is not viewable at all; plasmoids fail and restart plasma (always without success...) May I follow describing issues? I speak a poor English, but if I would express in my mother tongue, I would be more explicit. So, sorry. That's the reason why I said yesterday I will wait to the D-Day: when all things I do with kde3, gnome, windowmaker, even Enlightenment 0.17!, I can do it with kde4. Cheers, AOP.

What we are experiencing here are the consequences of the evolution of openSUSE. The Build Service makes it very (very, thank you 1-Click Install guys) easy for you to add unstable software to your system. In the old days, to get unstable KDE, you had to know about a directory on ftp.suse.com, download and install the packages by hand, resolve dependency problems yourself, and in doing so, realised that you were taking a risk. That is no longer the case.

Maybe we should write an applet that before you go to bugzilla.novell.com, scans your zypper repo list for any build service repos, and shows a graphic of a geeko in a tutu holding a STOP sign "Are you sure you know what you're running?" to prevent users worrying unnecessarily about the state of unreleased software.

Will -- Desktop Engineer KDE Team

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El lun, 18-02-2008 a las 07:36 +1300, Scott Newton escribió:

On Sunday, 17 February 2008 22:56:37 Hudibras wrote:

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I would like to give my opinion on this. Yes, konqueror crashes. I'm using now kde 4.0.62 unstable packages and they're even stabler than kde 4.0.1 stable branch, but konqueror is always crashing.

Hi again, and thank you for your answer.

Before these last two updates Konqueror was pretty stable for me.

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It's the only part not being work properly. Kdm is not configurable at all;

At the moment the configuration is manual.

Manual configuration? If then, have we go back to kde 1??? I don't think this is a serious thing for a "3rd or 4th generation" Linux Desktop.

At some point this will change.

I really hope so!

KDE4 is a new desktop and things take time to develop.

Well. If it's so, why not point it clearly out in forums, web or sites? People then did know what to do.

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"kicker" bar disappeared;

Try deleting your .kde4 settings from your home directory. Best is to rename it to say .kde4.orig if there is anything in it you want. This happened to me in one of the very early KDE4 releases. I did this and haven't had a problem since.

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konsole is doing many strange things...

Like what - I haven't had any problems with konsole.  Well, konsole is stable, certainly; but what I say it's a bit crazy when I change font (I think this is the cause, but I'm not sure at all... ),

Thank you for the advice, but it's what I do since my first linux desktop installation (1997, I think...) directory list overlaps each other. I hope you know what I mean.

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I don't understand what is happening actually with kde4, really. How long have we waiting to have a really stable kde4?

What does really stable mean to you?

I think the same word says it all: stability means not crashings, whatever is the configuration, it does not complain or fails... etc.

I'm using it daily and although I agree it 's not as stable as 3.5 yet I don't find it that bad.

No, I love KDE! Really! But I expected much more of 4. Only this. When I get doing the same things as I do in 3, I will say it's really usable. Thanks again, and I would give support to the kde team for their effort to make a great linux desktop, but I think it will be in the future, not now. Cheers, AOP

-- Regards Scott Newton

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El lun, 18-02-2008 a las 08:52 +1300, Scott Newton escribió:

Just FYI

On Monday, 18 February 2008 08:12:18 Hudibras wrote:

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KDE4 is a new desktop and things take time to develop.

Well. If it's so, why not point it clearly out in forums, web or sites? People then did know what to do.

KDE3 was starting to hit road blocks due to the nature of the underlying code. So a decision was made to rewrite the underlying libraries for KDE4 to create a framework on which to build a better KDE. So you now have (for example): - Plasma - The desktop framework. - Phonon - The sound/media framework which Qt has now taken into Qt itself though it's still developed in the KDE repository. - Solid - The hardware detection system based on dbus (dbus replaces dcop).

Plus some others which are still under development: - Decibel - The realtime communications framework. - Nepomuk - The semantic desktop framework. - Akonadi - The storage and query service framework for PIM data.

4.0 was released because it was felt that the underlying libraries were stable enough in terms of the API's not changing for developers to build their applications upon. The backward compatible part was to ensure that KDE3 applications would still run under KDE4.

The KDE4 versions of KOffice and Kontact are due for stable release with KDE 4.1 (currently set for July).

Hope this helps.

Yes. Thanks for your information. But this reinforces my opinion that release of kde4 intented as a new desktop has been very soon. I have not in mind now what specific applications fails or which not; what are these issues and what not; but generally speaking the feeling is that it's not finished yet and that there are too many work left to do. When all new things still in development you speak of are completely made, that would be the D-Day. Meanwhile, I wait... I hope you understand what I mean. Thanks again and cheers, AOP.

-- Regards Scott Newton

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El dom, 17-02-2008 a las 19:47 -0600, Rajko M. escribió:

On Sunday 17 February 2008 02:22:20 pm Hudibras wrote:

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Yes. Thanks for your information. But this reinforces my opinion that release of kde4 intented as a new desktop has been very soon. I have not in mind now what specific applications fails or which not; what are these issues and what not; but generally speaking the feeling is that it's not finished yet and that there are too many work left to do.

That attitude finished - not finished is OK in closed development where company set goals, write them in product specifications, develope and test it, and customer comes in when all is done.

The opensource is public development where developers need users to test software as it is developed.

If we would wait kernel to be finished and than start to use it, than kernel would be playgorund for developers forever and no user will ever get chance to use it. The same is valid for any other opensource project. If you look KDE3, is it finished? Where are specifications written before KDE development started that we can take and compare with resulting software?

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When all new things still in development you speak of are completely made, that would be the D-Day.

As mentioned, if everybody will wait than there will be no D day.

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Meanwhile, I wait...

Wait for what? Others to write and test software. I guess it would be fair to take your part in the development process. Use it and complain about things that you don't like.

Well, your comments are alright. But I have to insist on it: all people I know says the same, kde4 is still unstable. When kde3 was "finished" o tagged "stable" any of its apps crashed or if that, they were the minimum expression. I use kde3 and konqueror3 works (all plugins are alright and it doesn't crash or freeze); near every widget or app is completely configurable. Kde4 is not. So, what else can I say? It's doesn't blame on me that I have to remove .kde4 home directory all time, or use any other navigator, because Konqueror4 crashes even when I enter Packman site, a site where is not flash plugin, for instance. I understand opensource is always developing, but I consider a very important thing to have a "stable" release, completely usable, configurable and reliable, and kde4 is not like this. Sorry, it's my opinion. Cheers, AOP.

-- Regards, Rajko. See http://en.opensuse.org/Portal

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El lun, 18-02-2008 a las 07:21 +0000, ne.. escribió:

On Feb 18, 2008 7:13 AM, Hudibras wrote:

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completely configurable. Kde4 is not. So, what else can I say? It's doesn't blame on me that I have to remove .kde4 home directory all time, or use any other navigator, because Konqueror4 crashes even when I enter Packman site, a site where is not flash plugin, for instance. I understand opensource is always developing, but I consider a very important thing to have a "stable" release, completely usable, configurable and reliable, and kde4 is not like this. Sorry, it's my opinion. Well, tell you what. Since all you do is complain while it has been explained to that

[...] this is a work in progress, why don't you go use something else. If KDE3 works for you, use it. For me KDE4 works _without_ krashing and I have very few problems with it. So far all you have done is gripe, and that is putting it very mildly. I suggest you take it elsewhere. Those of us who know what the KDE & SUSE devs are up against know how encourage them without having folks like you constantly sniping at them.

ne...

I think that all comments I made have been polite and not gripe, but if you think so, I'm sorry for you. What I've been remarking is that in any forced situations, kde3 (even beta versions!) does not crash or fail, and kde4 do. I don't understand why any critics and comments would become unpleasant here. My aim was only to give support to make a great kde4 desktop. But if you can't see, It doesn't blame on me. Cheers, AOP.

-- Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org) Certified: 75% bastard, 42% of which is tard. http://www.thespark.com/bastardtest Now accepting personal mail for GMail invites.

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El lun, 18-02-2008 a las 03:44 -0500, Aaron Kulkis escribió:

ne... wrote:

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On Feb 18, 2008 7:13 AM, Hudibras wrote: [...]

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completely configurable. Kde4 is not. So, what else can I say? It's doesn't blame on me that I have to remove .kde4 home directory all time, or use any other navigator, because Konqueror4 crashes even when I enter Packman site, a site where is not flash plugin, for instance. I understand opensource is always developing, but I consider a very important thing to have a "stable" release, completely usable, configurable and reliable, and kde4 is not like this. Sorry, it's my opinion.

Well, tell you what. Since all you do is complain while it has been explained to that this is a work in progress, why don't you go use something else.

You're obtuse.

This is about whether KDE 4 is ready to replace KDE 3 or not.

"Work in progress" is PRECISELY THE PROBLEM.

IF KDE 4 were ready to replace KDE 3, NOBODY, including you, would be describing it as "a work in progress"

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If KDE3 works for you, use it. For me KDE4 works _without_ krashing and I have very few problems with it. ^^^^^^^^^^^^

And this isn't about you.

Right now, KDE 3 has so few problems that you have to deliberately engineer situations to experience problems with it.

Meanwhile, KDE 4's konsole crashes.

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So far all you have done is gripe, and that is putting it very mildly.

No. People on this list are talking about current weaknesses in the KDE 4 code base which indicate that it's not yet ready for anything other than experimenting with.

If you were, say, an industry consultant, and a customer wanted to migrate from Windows to KDE, could you tell that customer, with a straight face, that KDE 4 is, right now, or that by the first week of April, will be both stable enough AND configurable enough to use in a business environment?

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I suggest you take it elsewhere.

Excuse me, but this is the proper place for the discussion. If you don't like it, unsubscribe yourself.

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Those of us who know what the KDE & SUSE devs are up against know how encourage them without having folks like you constantly sniping at them.

Now you're misrepresenting what has been said here: Neither I nor anyone else here has been sniping at the devs.

I, and I'm sure most everyone else would LOVE for KDE 4 to be stable and complete enough to absolutely replace KDE 3 without the slightest hesitation.

Unfortunately, at the present time, that is not the case, although it appears that some on the list seem to think that WISHING for KDE 4 to be solid enough to replace KDE 3 automatically makes it true.

What I've been arguing against is making KDE 4 the default before it's ready -- because all it will do is give both SuSE and KDE a bad reputation, especially among those whose first exposure to Linux is any distribution in which an immature KDE 4 product is the default KDE desktop.

If there's been any sniping here, it's been at a few people whose words reveal that they are, for whatever reason, emotionally invested in shoving KDE 4 into SuSE 11.0, and apparently as the default version of KDE, now matter how many show-stoppers are still present in the code.

And that is simply irresponsible -- because the people who get burned the worst by that sort of misguided decision are those with the least amount of experience with and knowledge of Linux and its software.

One thing I've always like about SuSE is that while always a forward-looking distro, willing to explore new software, the product has overall been quite reliable.

All the way up until the 10.1 release and the online update nightmare. Somebody or group decided to rush immature code into YaST, and it created a SERIOUS problem.

There's absolutely NO REASON to repeat the same damned mistake again...especially since the stitches from the previous self-inflicted wound have only recently been removed.

As a user, not only do I want SuSE to be a good product for me...I want it to be a good product FOR EVERYONE who tries it -- not just those of use who have enough experience to avoid the swamps quick-sand pits.

Now lest you think I'm an old stick-in-the-mud who doesn't like change... I quit buying RedHat and switched to SuSE in the 6.x days for the entirely opposite reason -- RedHat stopped including newer software in their distros, and adopted a "one true xyz" attitude for nearly every class of application -- you either liked the particular app that they chose, or you would have to go hunt down and search for alternatives yourself -- in contrast to earlier releases which included many competing apps which did similar things, allowing the user to try whatever apps they want, and decide what they like best (which is how SuSE still does things today, and which is also why I LIKE the SuSE distros).

Understand...making KDE 4 the default KDE desktop won't hurt *ME*...because I'm informed enough to know what's going on with KDE. But that's not the point.

The point is making SuSE a good product for those who AREN'T fully aware of the KDE 3/4 issue...which would be all of those people who, for whatever reason, will be making their first leap at moving from Windows to SuSE in the coming months.

This is a crucial time for Linux...and getting a decent percentage of the market share of desktops is a now-or-never proposition. I suggest you read this: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html If you want across-the-industry support for Linux, then this goal cannot be allowed to be inadvertantly ruined by some emotion-driven release of a flaky desktop manager in a major distribution which even a decent number of EXPERT users are noticing basic problems (like konsole crashing!)

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ne...

Thank you, Aaron. I couldn't be more explicit, if my English wasn't so bad.. Cheers, AOP. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 18 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis said:

If you were, say, an industry consultant, and a customer wanted to migrate from Windows to KDE, could you tell that customer, with a straight face, that KDE 4 is, right now, or that by the first week of April, will be both stable enough AND configurable enough to use in a business environment?

To make this industry scenario a little more realistic: Importantly, the first week of April is our decision point, not deep freeze. The KDE 4 packages would continue to be updated with bulk fixes from Subversion until the end of May, and critical fixes through the RC cycle. So you'd be using what you had in your hand to sell what's coming next, not what you have in your hand. Taking that further, your hypothetical consultant might well actually be using 11.0 for a trial installation at a customer, with the targeted deal being a big SLED11 sale sometime next year, which would then be a rock solid KDE 4.1.something. Trials using earlier versions are common practice and customers can see past superficial, temporary regressions. Will -- Desktop Engineer KDE Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org