On Friday 28 January 2011 07:06:52 Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Donnerstag, 27. Januar 2011, 22:27:41 schrieb Patrick Shanahan:

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* Peter Nikolic [01-27-11 15:27]:

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I use the desktop folders and have a strange thing that i think i remember being brought up before , When you put the mouse cursor over an icon you get a plus sign + show up but the icon itself is very difficult to find the spot that is active to click on there was a fix if i remember right but cant find it

I don't know the significance of the "+" sign, but the "selection" area for "clicking" on the icon is quite large. It is not necessary to "click" on the "+" sign to activate actions for the icon.

The "+" is for selecting, not operning. For people who don't know that you can select multiple icons by holding CTRL the "+" is an intuitive feature to achieve that functionality. CTRL and "select multiple items" has absolutely no obvious link.

Here the area clickable for opening is four times as big as the "+" even if folderview is set to use the smalles icon size. And the "+" has the same size the buttons in the windeco have or the close buttons in firefox's tabs, so their usability size-wise seems to be adequate.

Sven

HUmmmmmm .. Well can we get rid of that + and get back to as itused to be as it is an feature i do not like or want and find a hinderence to use or is it another thing that only has one choice on end of .. Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.34.7-0.7-desktop KDE Development Platform: 4.5.5 (KDE 4.5.5) "release 1" 08:16 up 3 days 15:49, 4 users, load average: 0.04, 0.04, 0.01 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 28 January 2011 18:38:35 John Andersen wrote:

On 1/28/2011 12:18 AM, Peter Nikolic wrote:

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On Friday 28 January 2011 07:06:52 Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Am Donnerstag, 27. Januar 2011, 22:27:41 schrieb Patrick Shanahan:

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* Peter Nikolic [01-27-11 15:27]:

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I use the desktop folders and have a strange thing that i think i remember being brought up before , When you put the mouse cursor over an icon you get a plus sign + show up but the icon itself is very difficult to find the spot that is active to click on there was a fix if i remember right but cant find it

I don't know the significance of the "+" sign, but the "selection" area for "clicking" on the icon is quite large. It is not necessary to "click" on the "+" sign to activate actions for the icon.

The "+" is for selecting, not operning. For people who don't know that you can select multiple icons by holding CTRL the "+" is an intuitive feature to achieve that functionality. CTRL and "select multiple items" has absolutely no obvious link.

Here the area clickable for opening is four times as big as the "+" even if folderview is set to use the smalles icon size. And the "+" has the same size the buttons in the windeco have or the close buttons in firefox's tabs, so their usability size-wise seems to be adequate.

Sven

HUmmmmmm ..

Well can we get rid of that + and get back to as itused to be as it is an feature i do not like or want and find a hinderence to use or is it another thing that only has one choice on end of ..

Pete .

I tend to agree that far from being "intuitive" the plus is the least understood part of the file management interface. Everybody from every background understands control-click or shift-click, but the plus is just out of place and not found any where else on any platform.

It detracts from usability, a leads to accidents as its easy to accidents as a accidental click selects files/folders that can get deleted/moved when you scroll them out of view while failing to notice the Plus is selected.

Maybe a slight reword needed in the last from me is there a way I can turn the (feature OFF) as i neither like nor want it paluging my desktop Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.34.7-0.7-desktop KDE Development Platform: 4.5.5 (KDE 4.5.5) "release 1" 19:14 up 4 days 2:47, 4 users, load average: 0.47, 0.37, 0.30 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Freitag, 28. Januar 2011, 20:26:26 schrieb Will Stephenson:

On Friday 28 January 2011 20:16:08 Peter Nikolic wrote:

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Maybe a slight reword needed in the last from me is there a way I can turn the (feature OFF) as i neither like nor want it paluging my desktop

Right click in folder view, Icons->Lock in Place?

As far as I understood he wants to disable that the symbols "+" and the arrow appear on hovering an icon. AFAIK this is not possible. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 28 January 2011 20:51:14 Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Freitag, 28. Januar 2011, 20:26:26 schrieb Will Stephenson:

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On Friday 28 January 2011 20:16:08 Peter Nikolic wrote:

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Maybe a slight reword needed in the last from me is there a way I can turn the (feature OFF) as i neither like nor want it paluging my desktop

Right click in folder view, Icons->Lock in Place?

As far as I understood he wants to disable that the symbols "+" and the arrow appear on hovering an icon. AFAIK this is not possible.

Sven

And that's what Aaron's commit that I posted earlier enables. Wil -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 28 January 2011 19:48:36 Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Freitag, 28. Januar 2011, 19:38:35 schrieb John Andersen:

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I tend to agree that far from being "intuitive" the plus is the least understood part of the file management interface. Everybody from every background understands control-click or shift-click, but the plus is just out of place and not found any where else on any platform.

Sorry, but that's complete bollocks! What you claim is that a user without any knowledge regarding a computer is more likely to know that CTRL+click selects multiple items compared to finding out that clicking on the "+" does so.

And even if you tell him, your claim would be that learning CTRL+click = selecting is easier although there no logic to it and you have to remember the name of the key since it might also be ALT which is nearby. All that according to you is easier than learning "+" = add to selection and "-" = substract from selection.

Nobody will ever guess that CTRL+click does multiple selections, simply because there is no logic behind that combination. It's only discoverable by chance, no hints, nothing.

The "+" is visible which makes it a lot easier to discover in the first place, it is click-able, i.e. you do not even need to know that you can combine keys leaving alone remembering how that key was named, it mediates its purpose by a symbol, i.e. "+" = add, it signals that it does have a functionality by appearing, i.e. attracting your attention and thus increases the likelihood that the user will just try to click on it.

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It detracts from usability, a leads to accidents as its easy to accidents as a accidental click selects files/folders that can get deleted/moved when you scroll them out of view while failing to notice the Plus is selected.

The space used for the "+" is a lot smaller than the rest of the UI, so chances are that if you really hit that spot accidentally it is a lot more likely that you click on a file and execute it, e.g. a script which might ddo some harm - so following your logic there should be no clicks at all without having to press an extra button.

Further you assume that users fail to notice that they clicked on a file, they might as well fail to notice that they pressed a key. And even if they did - you also assume that they fail to notice when deleting (since anything else is non-destructive) that the list of files they get asked to delete is different from what they want to delete? You might as well win the lottery.

It really feels like you just wanted to make a point because of some hard feelings regarding KDE4 stuff.

Sven

I dont think that is a fair comment really this version of KDE 4.5.5 seems prety good there are a few little glitches here and there certain things that i would like to see made a user choice instead of it's there like it or lump it . Still the complete address book thing is dire i needed to update a contact today and no way could i enter an address , this is an important application i need to manage several hundred addresses and it is hard going the way things are but still KDE 4.5.5 seems quite decent now compared with the former versions in the 4.x.x line .. Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.34.7-0.7-desktop KDE Development Platform: 4.5.5 (KDE 4.5.5) "release 1" 21:53 up 4 days 5:26, 4 users, load average: 0.39, 0.32, 0.27 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 28 January 2011 22:46:48 John Andersen wrote:

On 1/28/2011 1:57 PM, Peter Nikolic wrote:

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On Friday 28 January 2011 19:48:36 Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Am Freitag, 28. Januar 2011, 19:38:35 schrieb John Andersen:

...

I tend to agree that far from being "intuitive" the plus is the least understood part of the file management interface. Everybody from every background understands control-click or shift-click, but the plus is just out of place and not found any where else on any platform.

Sorry, but that's complete bollocks! What you claim is that a user without any knowledge regarding a computer is more likely to know that CTRL+click selects multiple items compared to finding out that clicking on the "+" does so.

And even if you tell him, your claim would be that learning CTRL+click = selecting is easier although there no logic to it and you have to remember the name of the key since it might also be ALT which is nearby. All that according to you is easier than learning "+" = add to selection and "-" = substract from selection.

Nobody will ever guess that CTRL+click does multiple selections, simply because there is no logic behind that combination. It's only discoverable by chance, no hints, nothing.

The "+" is visible which makes it a lot easier to discover in the first place, it is click-able, i.e. you do not even need to know that you can combine keys leaving alone remembering how that key was named, it mediates its purpose by a symbol, i.e. "+" = add, it signals that it does have a functionality by appearing, i.e. attracting your attention and thus increases the likelihood that the user will just try to click on it.

...

It detracts from usability, a leads to accidents as its easy to accidents as a accidental click selects files/folders that can get deleted/moved when you scroll them out of view while failing to notice the Plus is selected.

The space used for the "+" is a lot smaller than the rest of the UI, so chances are that if you really hit that spot accidentally it is a lot more likely that you click on a file and execute it, e.g. a script which might ddo some harm - so following your logic there should be no clicks at all without having to press an extra button.

Further you assume that users fail to notice that they clicked on a file, they might as well fail to notice that they pressed a key. And even if they did - you also assume that they fail to notice when deleting (since anything else is non-destructive) that the list of files they get asked to delete is different from what they want to delete? You might as well win the lottery.

It really feels like you just wanted to make a point because of some hard feelings regarding KDE4 stuff.

Sven

I dont think that is a fair comment really this version of KDE 4.5.5 seems prety good there are a few little glitches here and there certain things that i would like to see made a user choice instead of it's there like it or lump it .

Further the assumption that anyone comes tabula rasa to KDE is beyond arrogant when Linux itself has less than 3% penetration. Everyone knows about ctrl-click and shift-click long before the discover Linux or KDE. Even the belligerent Sven knew about those key combos.

Pardon ! is that pointed at me per chance ? Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.34.7-0.7-desktop KDE Development Platform: 4.5.5 (KDE 4.5.5) "release 1" 23:49 up 4 days 7:22, 4 users, load average: 0.20, 0.26, 0.20 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Freitag, 28. Januar 2011, 22:57:46 schrieb Peter Nikolic:

On Friday 28 January 2011 19:48:36 Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Am Freitag, 28. Januar 2011, 19:38:35 schrieb John Andersen:

...

I tend to agree that far from being "intuitive" the plus is the least understood part of the file management interface. Everybody from every background understands control-click or shift-click, but the plus is just out of place and not found any where else on any platform.

...

It really feels like you just wanted to make a point because of some hard feelings regarding KDE4 stuff.

I dont think that is a fair comment really this version of KDE 4.5.5 seems prety good there are a few little glitches here and there certain things that i would like to see made a user choice instead of it's there like it or lump it .

Just to make sure, I meant John's statement not your wish to have it configurable which is perfectly valid and as Will has pointed out the plasma devs worked on this apparently already. I just disagree with people that assume that just because they don't like something it is useless for everyone else and a complete failure usability-wise. Especially if they make it that easy to refute them, i.e. their arguments show more of a hard feeling than reasoning.

Still the complete address book thing is dire i needed to update a contact today and no way could i enter an address , this is an important application i need to manage several hundred addresses and it is hard going the way things are but still KDE 4.5.5 seems quite decent now compared with the former versions in the 4.x.x line ..

PIM is indeed an area where improvements are needed. So if you want to help please post the issues to opensuse-kde@ or file detailed bugs about them at novell's bugzilla. Chances are that Will might be able to help out. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org