Re: [opensuse] Can you say ripoff - OT
Peter Bradley wrote:
Ysgrifennodd Tony Alfrey:
<snip>
But if the goal is to convert more away from M$, it would help the average user for the end result to be more Mac-like. Hence the possible usefulness of such a compatibility list. I'm not the first to propose ways to make the transition to Linux easier for the masses, I'm just thinking about ways to quantify it. All that would do would be to make Linux systems as expensive as Apple systems. The two things are in different markets. Making Linux boxes expensive will not increase market penetration. And anyway, who's going to sell these guaranteed-linux-compatible systems? Not PC World, and that's where Joe public goes to get his PC. In case you missed it, Walmart have been trying something like this. I haven't heard them shouting about its success.
Let me see if I can succinctly restate my position: 1. If Macs were cheap, people would use Macs, not PCs (possibly a false premise, otherwise the Mac Mini would be more successful). 2. Linux/SuSE or some other distro has the potential to be like a cheap Mac. It needs a. the GUI and apps to be ready for prime time, nearly Mac-like. Getting there. b. the hassle factor to be at the level of that for a Mac. A list of absolutely compatible systems would help *on the hardware side*. With respect to Wal-Mart, I think their system fails at (2a) above. With respect to a list of standard systems increasing the cost of a linux box, I don't understand this point. But it is in the interest of the vendors of distros to know which systems *are* absolutely compatible and to publish such a list. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 10 January 2007 20:21, Tony Alfrey wrote:
b. the hassle factor to be at the level of that for a Mac. A list of absolutely compatible systems would help *on the hardware side*.
But new hardware comes out every day, and there are effectively infinite permutations which cannot be effectively tested - how would you compile, verify and update that list without it being out of date before you started unless A) you control the hardware design process (Apple) or B) you can dictate how the hardware and software interact (Microsoft)? Dylan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Ysgrifennodd Dylan:
But new hardware comes out every day, and there are effectively infinite permutations which cannot be effectively tested - how would you compile, verify and update that list without it being out of date before you started unless A) you control the hardware design process (Apple) or B) you can dictate how the hardware and software interact (Microsoft)?
Dylan
My point exactly, but much better and more succinctly put. :) Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Peter Bradley wrote:
Ysgrifennodd Dylan:
But new hardware comes out every day, and there are effectively infinite permutations which cannot be effectively tested - how would you compile, verify and update that list without it being out of date before you started unless A) you control the hardware design process (Apple) or B) you can dictate how the hardware and software interact (Microsoft)?
Dylan
My point exactly, but much better and more succinctly put.
:)
Peter
It all adds to the cost. Say, for example, Dell decided they were going to provide an AMD based laptop and say it was "Linux ready" They would then need to spend time (and money, which would have to be passed on to the consumer) testing out various distros to have half a chance of being able to field Tech Support questions along the lines of "I've just installed Solianux v9.8.7 and it doesn't work. Your advert says the systems Linux ready". The problem gets worse with desktop/server machines where the choice of hardware components is much greater. This is why companies like Sun only support specified versions of RedHat and SLES (wnd yes, even Windoze) on their 64bit products. It's also why storage companies such as EMC need time to test combinations of hardware/OS/OS version before including a configuration in their compatability matrix (it was getting on for 6 months after SunFire x4200 was released that it + SLES9 made it onto EMC's list and they have quite an extensive testing facility!). Coming from a Pr1mos and then Solaris background I've only really "dabbled" with Linux over the last 3 years or so. Some distros have worked "out of the box" and some haven't - on the same hardware. Some are more geared towards "server" usage, some more "desktop". So far, SUSE 10.1, SLED 10.1 and openSUSE 10.2 are the only ones I've managed to get to install 64bit versions of on my current setup (Intel D945GCZL motherboard with 3.4GHz BTX P4, Seagate SATA, ATI Radeon X550). Others simply barfed at not being able to find the disk (64bit Debian), or had problems with the display/graphics (64bit Ubuntu 6.10). One of the "problems" Linux has is its myriad variations and re-invented wheels, which is likely to confuse the hell out of "Joe Public" who's been force-fed M$/Apple over the last quarter century. The success (or otherwise) of Linux as a desktop will rely heavily on ease of installation, look&feel and ease of use. A distribution which is able to install on practically anything (using "generic" drivers where necessary) and has an pleasant looking, uncluttered, *intuitive* interface is likely to help turn the tide. Even though I keep "flying the flag" for FOSS/FLOSS here at work, the bosses seem welded to M$ and heavily resistant to much less costly alternatives. -- Paul Walsh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Dylan wrote:
On Wednesday 10 January 2007 20:21, Tony Alfrey wrote:
b. the hassle factor to be at the level of that for a Mac. A list of absolutely compatible systems would help *on the hardware side*.
But new hardware comes out every day, and there are effectively infinite permutations which cannot be effectively tested - how would you compile, verify and update that list without it being out of date before you started unless A) you control the hardware design process (Apple) or B) you can dictate how the hardware and software interact (Microsoft)?
Dylan
I propose a simple list. I post to the list and say essentially "these are the exact components in my box and I installed Distro X and it required *no tweaking*". The equivalent of Wikipedia, with a very narrow, well-delineated scope, and perhaps some template for the way the *system* is defined. New hardware *does* come out everyday and people test it everyday. People can edit said list, and add comments: "Installed OK, but discovered a week later that USB port was not functional". It is a *system* list, not a *hardware* list. Us geeks often buy individual pieces of *hardware*, install rpm this or tarball that; the average user buys a *system*, which includes the distro, and expects it to work. We document that info. We narrow the definition of a *system* as one which, after component assembly, installs a distro *with no additional fussing*. Like a Mac. Often, I see on the SuSE list is "I bought this system and installed SuSE 10.x and it *doesn't* work." But we *know* that there are many out there with the opposite experience. Why archive what doesn't work, let's archive what *does* work. Implore those who were successful to "give it up" as we say. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 20:35 +0000, Dylan wrote: "But new hardware comes out every day, and there are effectively infinite permutations which cannot be effectively tested - how would you compile, verify and update that list without it being out of date before you started unless A) you control the hardware design process (Apple) or B) you can dictate how the hardware and software interact (Microsoft)?" Absolutely perfect wording! James -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
<snip />
Let me see if I can succinctly restate my position: 1. If Macs were cheap, people would use Macs, not PCs (possibly a false premise, otherwise the Mac Mini would be more successful). 2. Linux/SuSE or some other distro has the potential to be like a cheap Mac. It needs a. the GUI and apps to be ready for prime time, nearly Mac-like. Getting there. b. the hassle factor to be at the level of that for a Mac. A list of absolutely compatible systems would help *on the hardware side*.
With respect to Wal-Mart, I think their system fails at (2a) above. With respect to a list of standard systems increasing the cost of a linux box, I don't understand this point. But it is in the interest of the vendors of distros to know which systems *are* absolutely compatible and to publish such a list.
Tony, I'm obviously not going to convince you, but let me just say this. You say, "If Macs were cheap ...". That's the whole problem. Macs can't be cheap because they rely on expensive components to work in the very reliable and praiseworthy way that they do. They are tied to their hardware. You say, "Linux ... has the potential to be like a cheap Mac". There can't be a cheap Mac if you're going to retain the positive things about it that you seem to be after. Once you make it cheap, it stops being desirable, because it's the expensive, reliable and predictable hardware that makes it a Mac. The Mac route is not available for Linux. Even if it was, we'd only get the same sort of market share as the Mac has, and we've probably got something close to that already. Linux has to run on commodity hardware. The fact that it does so well is little short of a miracle IMHO. The solution to the market penetration problem for Linux is not to be found in comparison to the Mac; it is to be found in comparison to Windows, where the problems of getting the OS to work on commodity hardware has been shifted to the OEMs You can get boxes like this. As I posted earlier, you can go to Transtec, for example. It just has to become more common. And it will. Eventually. Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 01/10/2007 Tony Alfrey wrote:
1. If Macs were cheap, people would use Macs, not PCs (possibly a false premise, otherwise the Mac Mini would be more successful).
You can't go down to the corner store and have your choice of eight or nine mother boards, five or six video cards, processors, sound cards, etc [ ad infinitum, et nauseum ]. The simple reason Mac's are expensive is that they ARE proprietary. If you want one you pay THEIR price.
2. Linux/SuSE or some other distro has the potential to be like a cheap Mac. It needs a. the GUI and apps to be ready for prime time, nearly Mac-like. Getting there.
AFAIAC, the GUI is very good. Some of the apps......well.....while they are good [ as good as any out there ] installation could be better.
b. the hassle factor to be at the level of that for a Mac. A list of absolutely compatible systems would help *on the hardware side*.
IMHO, it is a matter of demand, then supply. If more people were using Linux, in any of it's permutations, then hardware makers would work a little more diligently on the compatability issues. If you sell three widgets a year to Linux users and three million widgets a year to Windows users, where you gonna put your focus. RIGHT. If Windows is paying the bills, then your gonna focus on Windows. If the demand goes up, then supply will go up as well. Another issue that I feel goes along these same lines is the issue of "information". When I went to download 10.0 to give SuSE another try I didn't read every page on the site. I went straight to the download page, downloaded and installed [ Just the same as 99% of all "newbies" are going to do. ]. I was totally clueless about things that I NEEDED to know up front. Like adding repositories [ H___ I didn't even know what a "repository" was. Isn't that one of them things that a doctor tells you to shove up your alimentary canal? ], what I needed to add to watch a DVD or play a CD, all sorts of little things that most on here know without thinking about it. This stuff needs to be shoved down their throat from the get go. I wish it had been mine. Thankfully 10.0 installed and ran just great. Made me the "convert-in-training" that I am. -- (o:]>*HUGGLES*<[:o) Billie Walsh The three best words in the English Language: "I LOVE YOU" Pass them on! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (6)
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Billie Erin Walsh -
Dylan -
James Tremblay -
Paul Walsh -
Peter Bradley -
Tony Alfrey