[opensuse] weird error on opensuse site following an advert: new encryption only on suse?
I followed an opensuse advert for selling data storage for body-cams to police. It went through some redirects on google, then went to www.suse.com, where I prompt got some weird error I can't reproduce because google is serving up a different advert, and I don't know the URL because google encrypts the SSL stream (recently upgraded my squid and have yet to pop in a new local cert to decode it). This is a perfect reason why I hate needless encrypting of webpages -- as now I can't even find the URL I was on let alone reproduce the problem from it. However, I get a different but similar error if I try to goto the website directly. The connection was interrupted The connection to www.suse.com was interrupted while the page was loading. The site could be temporarily unavailable or too busy. Try again in a few moments. If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network connection. If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure that Pale Moon is permitted to access the Web. ----- Before, when I got the error, in my proxy log I got: +5.86 0ms; 0 (0/-) NONE/000 <Athenae [NONE error:transaction-end-before-headers - - -] +0.00 0ms; 0 (-/-) NONE/000 <Athenae [NONE error:transaction-end-before-headers - - -] +11.37 2038ms; 39 (3.0/19.0) TUNNEL/200 <Athenae [CONNECT www.suse.com:443 - 130.57.66.10 -] +34.72 2044ms; 39 (1.0/19.0) TUNNEL/200 <Athenae [CONNECT www.suse.com:443 - 130.57.66.10 -] --- After most of the suse connects, I see the weird message in my squidlog that I've never seen before "error:transaction-end-before-headers"... I get the same message going to the opensuse network forums webpage. I have a feeling it has to do with the new encryption as I'm using an older browser by default So far, opensuse is the first site that I've hit this on. I know it isn't the proxy, as it opens in another (newer browser (opera)). So the claim is that open suse is doing this because google is forcing it. Then why am I not having the same problem with other web pages -- including google? This new encryption (if that's what it is and if it was done right) seems to be only present on opensuse systems at this point (maybe more will pop up later). But the part I find to be the most strange is that the sites that the ad was on, had no problem, I have no problems any google site (youtube, plus, etc). Just suse.com and opensuse.org. I don't have the problem on download.opensuse.org (which defaults to http for me), nor the https version used on that site. So why is opensuse causing problems for some browsers, but no one else seems to be (including download site)? Ideas? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2018-06-24 06:16, L A Walsh wrote:
I followed an opensuse advert for selling data storage for body-cams to police.
It went through some redirects on google, then went to www.suse.com,
That page doesn't load here. Well, it did after a minute, and it is an strange page. And I get it in Spanish, despite my browser preference for English. At the bottom, there is a aws float that hides a few of the allies, such as Cisco. A security alert (meltdown) floats on top full time. No mention at all of openSUSE. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 2018-06-24 05:33 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2018-06-24 06:16, L A Walsh wrote:
I followed an opensuse advert for selling data storage for body-cams to police.
It went through some redirects on google, then went to www.suse.com, That page doesn't load here.
Well, it did after a minute, and it is an strange page. And I get it in Spanish, despite my browser preference for English.
At the bottom, there is a aws float that hides a few of the allies, such as Cisco.
A security alert (meltdown) floats on top full time.
No mention at all of openSUSE.
Everything seems fine here going directly to that site, no delays whatsoever and no "extras" on screen either. Using Seamonkey 2.49.1; what browser is everyone else using? I won't ever be able to check this following an advert, since I'm running an ad blocker. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2018-06-24 05:33 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2018-06-24 06:16, L A Walsh wrote:
I followed an opensuse advert for selling data storage for body-cams to police.
It went through some redirects on google, then went to www.suse.com, That page doesn't load here.
Well, it did after a minute, and it is an strange page. And I get it in Spanish, despite my browser preference for English.
At the bottom, there is a aws float that hides a few of the allies, such as Cisco.
A security alert (meltdown) floats on top full time.
No mention at all of openSUSE.
No, but also have problems going to the opensuse forum site: https://forums.opensuse.org/ . ----- (it says: ) The connection was interrupted The connection to forums.opensuse.org was interrupted while the page was loading. The site could be temporarily unavailable or too busy. Try again in a few moments. If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network connection. If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure that Pale Moon is permitted to access the Web. [Try Again] ============ That's with Pale Moon V25.50(x64) -- (current version 27.9.3). Have not upgraded this browser because I'd lose too many extensions I want to use/keep for my everyday/casual usage. If I am visiting a more sensitive site or one that requires more security, I'll use Opera. Both webpages work fine in Opera.
I won't ever be able to check this following an advert, since I'm running an ad blocker.
Fortunately, my ad blocker allows me to put in site and page-specific exceptions as well as allowing me to temporarily disable. Anyway, if you can access www.suse.com or Not seeing the status 'NONE' in squidlog for forums.opensuse.org and have tried reloading it more than once. Just seeing the 'connection was interrupted. however, If I turn on masquerading, and try to go direct with my browser, instead of through proxy, I get a different message: ---------------------------------------------------- The connection was reset The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading. The site could be temporarily unavailable or too busy. Try again in a few moments. If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network connection. If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure that Pale Moon is permitted to access the Web. [Try Again] ================================================= In both cases, client is starting out with a TLSv1 Hello/handshake, followed by a supported range, up to TLSv1.2. The lower range in my browser seems to be configured at TLSv1.1. In top case, squid is closing connection to browser "politely"(?) with a FIN,ACK message after the opening TLS message, while the bottom message (reset), comes from the remote website, and it sends an 'ACK' then a 'RST' on the connection (thus, "reset") -- roughly same response. I don't think suse's new configuration is following suggested practices. They seem to be applying some standard that is higher than what is recommended for commercial+vendor transactions and before the suggested date of implementation. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday, 24 June 2018 17:56:59 BST L A Walsh wrote:
Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2018-06-24 05:33 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2018-06-24 06:16, L A Walsh wrote:
I followed an opensuse advert for selling data storage for body-cams to police.
It went through some redirects on google, then went to www.suse.com,
That page doesn't load here.
Well, it did after a minute, and it is an strange page. And I get it in Spanish, despite my browser preference for English.
At the bottom, there is a aws float that hides a few of the allies, such as Cisco.
A security alert (meltdown) floats on top full time.
No mention at all of openSUSE.
--- No, but also have problems going to the opensuse forum site: https://forums.opensuse.org/ . ----- (it says: )
The connection was interrupted
The connection to forums.opensuse.org was interrupted while the page was loading.
The site could be temporarily unavailable or too busy. Try again in a few moments. If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network connection. If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure that Pale Moon is permitted to access the Web.
[Try Again]
============
That's with Pale Moon V25.50(x64) -- (current version 27.9.3). Have not upgraded this browser because I'd lose too many extensions I want to use/keep for my everyday/casual usage. If I am visiting a more sensitive site or one that requires more security, I'll use Opera. Both webpages work fine in Opera.
I won't ever be able to check this following an advert, since I'm running an ad blocker.
--- Fortunately, my ad blocker allows me to put in site and page-specific exceptions as well as allowing me to temporarily disable. Anyway, if you can access www.suse.com or
Not seeing the status 'NONE' in squidlog for forums.opensuse.org and have tried reloading it more than once. Just seeing the 'connection was interrupted.
however, If I turn on masquerading, and try to go direct with my browser, instead of through proxy, I get a different message:
---------------------------------------------------- The connection was reset
The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading.
The site could be temporarily unavailable or too busy. Try again in a few moments. If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network connection. If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure that Pale Moon is permitted to access the Web. [Try Again] =================================================
In both cases, client is starting out with a TLSv1 Hello/handshake, followed by a supported range, up to TLSv1.2. The lower range in my browser seems to be configured at TLSv1.1.
In top case, squid is closing connection to browser "politely"(?) with a FIN,ACK message after the opening TLS message, while the bottom message (reset), comes from the remote website, and it sends an 'ACK' then a 'RST' on the connection (thus, "reset") -- roughly same response.
I don't think suse's new configuration is following suggested practices. They seem to be applying some standard that is higher than what is recommended for commercial+vendor transactions and before the suggested date of implementation.
Hi TLS1.0 and 1.1 are depricated and most websites have them turned off for security reasons the same as SSL version. The old browser may also not be ale to negotiate with the SHA2 certs as SHA1 is also past it life and most browsers and sites no longer support so if your browser cannot handle SHA2 then you will not connect. Aditionally you may have old cipher support only and many of these are disabled on the servers for the health of the server. All things to check out Andrew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Andrew Colvin wrote:
TLS1.0 and 1.1 are depricated
1) Where do you see that TLS1.1 is deprecated? I see that for TLS1l.0 but not 1.1. Nevertheless, TLS1.2 is available. and most websites have them turned off for
security reasons the same as SSL version. The old browser may also not be ale to negotiate with the SHA2 certs as SHA1 is also past it life and most browsers and sites no longer support so if your browser cannot handle SHA2 then you will not connect. Aditionally you may have old cipher support only and many of these are disabled on the servers for the health of the server.
Those are all fine and good if they were true. But no other sites that I have found have problems with my security ciphers or hashes. Of *KEY* importance here is that one of the main reasons for moving sites to "https", was the insistence of Google for "https everywhere". One would think that one or many of their sites would fail in the same way if my browser didn't support new enough algorithms. The fact that they don't -- and it is google that is pushing for this security, AND the fact that other sites like my bank, credit-card, private-health and commerce sites don't have a problem with my browser. If they thought it was a security risk, wouldn't they be among the first to implement changes? This is why I leaning toward believing that it is something specifically wrong with how suse & opensuse have upgraded their website security.
All things to check out
More to the point -- if I did try to fix something specifically to make suse work, there is the distinct possibility that I might break other websites -- whereas now suse is the only one with a problem. In debugging problems, you look at "what changed" and if the problem can be reproduced elsewhere. We know that several of the [open]suse.[org|com] websites had https-security changes and that it has affected other people than just me. Also, I'm unable to reproduce it with the same browser on other sites. That would point to the problem being with the recent https changes made by suse/opensuse admins. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2018-06-24 23:38, L A Walsh wrote:
Andrew Colvin wrote:
TLS1.0 and 1.1 are depricated
1) Where do you see that TLS1.1 is deprecated? I see that for TLS1l.0 but not 1.1. Nevertheless, TLS1.2 is available.
and most websites have them turned off for
security reasons the same as SSL version. The old browser may also not be ale to negotiate with the SHA2 certs as SHA1 is also past it life and most browsers and sites no longer support so if your browser cannot handle SHA2 then you will not connect. Aditionally you may have old cipher support only and many of these are disabled on the servers for the health of the server.
Those are all fine and good if they were true. But no other sites that I have found have problems with my security ciphers or hashes. Of *KEY* importance here is that one of the main reasons for moving sites to "https", was the insistence of Google for "https everywhere". One would think that one or many of their sites would fail in the same way if my browser didn't support new enough algorithms. The fact that they don't -- and it is google that is pushing for this security, AND the fact that other sites like my bank, credit-card, private-health and commerce sites don't have a problem with my browser. If they thought it was a security risk, wouldn't they be among the first to implement changes?
Security and banks is an oxymoron. My bank uses a 4 digit numeric pin on its web page. Banks keep using old systems because of cost of change and tradition. See the bank software crash in the UK a month or two ago as an example. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
Andrew Colvin wrote:
TLS1.0 and 1.1 are depricated and most websites have them turned off for security reasons the same as SSL version.
TLS1.0 is deprecated, but not 1.1. The old browser may also not be able
to negotiate with the SHA2 certs as SHA1 is also past it life and most browsers and sites no longer support so if your browser cannot handle SHA2 then you will not connect.
Wouldn't matter. The opensuse sites I can't connecct with only use SHA1.
Aditionally you may have old cipher support only and many of these are disabled on the servers for the health of the server.
Actually the problem was pretty much the opposite. The opensuse server only had the weaker ones starting w/RSA enabled. I'd disabled RSA as a first try and only had the strong ones enabled. I enabled a few of the RSA ciphers, which I'm told often needs to be done for compatibility as many sites haven't disabled the older ciphers for compatibility w/customers.
All things to check out
Did...and the problem was pretty much the opposite of of what we were thinking. Those who can't connect have their security settings set too high Opensuse only has 1 algorithm available for the first part -- RSA which is deprecated by ssllabs. thanks for the nudge -- (made me investigate what we being send/offered...just that that whole strong/weak thing got reversed).. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday, 25 June 2018 01:54:16 BST L A Walsh wrote:
Andrew Colvin wrote:
All things to check out
--- Did...and the problem was pretty much the opposite of of what we were thinking.
Those who can't connect have their security settings set too high Opensuse only has 1 algorithm available for the first part -- RSA which is deprecated by ssllabs.
thanks for the nudge -- (made me investigate what we being send/offered...just that that whole strong/weak thing got reversed)..
Wow in that case I think there should be a bug report raised because it will not be long before other visitors trip over this. Good find -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Andrew Colvin wrote:
On Monday, 25 June 2018 01:54:16 BST L A Walsh wrote:
Those who can't connect have their security settings set too high. Opensuse only has 1 algorithm available for the first part -- RSA which is deprecated by ssllabs.
Wow in that case I think there should be a bug report raised because it will not be long before other visitors trip over this. Good find
Others have run into it -- though I guess I was the first one to investigate "why". Too much of an engineer who likes to see how things tick. As for reporting it as a bug, -- as noted in another note on this forum, it's been about 3 years since I've had a bug "accepted" and haven't been told that [open]suse no longer supported what I was doing. I can see that being told that was the case here. ;^/ (sigh) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
I'm not sure what caused the OP's problems, but I did run the qualy ssl labs server test against https://www.suse.com and the result was actually embarrassing... https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=www.suse.com Seriously? Grade B? Only weak ciphers enabled? wtf? -- Mathias Homann Senior Systems Engineer, IT Consultant. IT Trainer Mathias.Homann@openSUSE.org http://www.tuxonline.tech gpg key fingerprint: 8029 2240 F4DD 7776 E7D2 C042 6B8E 029E 13F2 C102
Mathias Homann wrote:
I'm not sure what caused the OP's problems;
opensuse only supports RSA, which should be off. I had it off (only ECDH + DH on). So no overlap to talk. Turned on the weak RSA, and I could talk again.
I did run the qualy ssl labs server test against https://www.suse.com and the result was actually embarrassing...
https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=www.suse.com Seriously? Grade B? Only weak ciphers enabled? wtf?
Did it against forums.opensuse.org and got 2 reasons why grade was capped to B: This server does not support Forward Secrecy with the reference browsers. Grade capped to B. This server does not support Authenticated encryption (AEAD) cipher suites. Grade capped to B. For TLS: TLS 1.3 No TLS 1.2 Yes TLS 1.1 Yes TLS 1.0 Yes (TLS 1.3 hasn't been widely adopted ...)...but TLS 1.0, most agree it should be off. But fact that it is on -- indicates it's not my TLS version that's a problem. My browser starts w/TLS1.1 and offers 1.2 TLS1.2 Ciphers: TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA256 (0x3d) WEAK TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256 (0x3c) WEAK TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA (0x35) WEAK TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA (0x2f) WEAK # TLS 1.1 (suites in server-preferred order) TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA (0x35) WEAK TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA (0x2f) WEAK Uses common DH primes No, DHE suites not supported DH public server param (Ys) reuse No, DHE suites not supported ECDH public server param reuse No, ECDHE suites not supported ----- ^^^This is the problem^^^ opensuse only supports RSA, which is flawed and the advice I was given was to turn off RSA -- so no connection. I turn on RSA and can connect again. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 24/06/18 18:56, L A Walsh wrote:
That's with Pale Moon V25.50(x64) -- (current version 27.9.3). Have not upgraded this browser because I'd lose too many extensions I want to use/keep for my everyday/casual usage.
I tried PaleMoon recently, when Firefox Quantum stopped (almost) all my extensions working. I was very unimpressed. It's forked from an *ancient* version of Firefox which hasn't been updated in many years. Consequently it is highly insecure as there have been hundreds of vulnerabilities fixed since then. If you want a browser that runs classic Firefox XUL extensions, try Waterfox. https://www.waterfoxproject.org/ It's a fork of Firefox 56, the last version that could run XUL add-ons. The maintainer is backporting the applicable newer security fixes from mainline Firefox Quantum. There's no RPM package on the site but the tarball works perfectly on Tumbleweed. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 16:43:52 +0200, Liam Proven wrote:
On 24/06/18 18:56, L A Walsh wrote:
That's with Pale Moon V25.50(x64) -- (current version 27.9.3). Have not upgraded this browser because I'd lose too many extensions I want to use/keep for my everyday/casual usage.
I tried PaleMoon recently, when Firefox Quantum stopped (almost) all my extensions working.
I was very unimpressed. It's forked from an *ancient* version of Firefox which hasn't been updated in many years. Consequently it is highly insecure as there have been hundreds of vulnerabilities fixed since then.
Please collect some information before you write nonsense (very strong euphemism!). Palemoon's release notes page is a good starting site: http://www.palemoon.org/releasenotes.shtml (You can even browse it through simple http channel - not as advanced as opensuse sites.) Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 16:43:52 +0200, Liam Proven wrote:
On 24/06/18 18:56, L A Walsh wrote:
That's with Pale Moon V25.50(x64) -- (current version 27.9.3). Have not upgraded this browser because I'd lose too many extensions I want to use/keep for my everyday/casual usage.
I tried PaleMoon recently, when Firefox Quantum stopped (almost) all my extensions working.
I was very unimpressed. It's forked from an *ancient* version of Firefox which hasn't been updated in many years. Consequently it is highly insecure as there have been hundreds of vulnerabilities fixed since then.
What do you think about this? OpenBSD's forked from an *ancient* version of NetBSD which hasn't been updated in many years. CONSEQUENTLY it is highly insecure as there have been hundreds of vulnerabilities fixed since then. So logical! Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Liam Proven wrote:
On 24/06/18 18:56, L A Walsh wrote:
That's with Pale Moon V25.50(x64) -- (current version 27.9.3). Have not upgraded this browser because I'd lose too many extensions I want to use/keep for my everyday/casual usage.
I tried PaleMoon recently, when Firefox Quantum stopped (almost) all my extensions working.
I was very unimpressed. It's forked from an *ancient* version of Firefox which hasn't been updated in many years.
When it was forked, it was "new". However, it kept older features that many liked where the new FF moved away from its standard interface to a newer one. Many didn't appreciate that. As for security updates, PM as applied the same types of security revisions as FF has gotten and more. The current version isn't even based on the same rendering engine as FF was then (or now).
If you want a browser that runs classic Firefox XUL extensions, try Waterfox.
--- I tried WF ages ago (long before I new about PM). At the time it was slow and less stable than FF (this is at least 4-5 years back). There have also been concerns about their privacy policy: https://spyware.neocities.org/articles/waterfox.html That I've heard people speaking about for about the last few-to-couple of years. That said, I'm sure I could find things to critique about PM -- as they did change their extension format at some point, so I haven't upgraded it since, but have a list of non-compat extensions that occasionally review and work on -- sometimes to find replacements, and in a few cases to try to fix the compat problems. As for security -- they seem to be on top of the latest security issues and quickly issue fixes/patches. P.s. if you respond to me, and want me to see your reply in a reasonable time frame (or sometimes, "at all"), please be sure to send a copy to me as well as the list. They are sorted differently, locally. Thanks. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* L.A. Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> [01-01-70 12:34]: [...]
P.s. if you respond to me, and want me to see your reply in a reasonable time frame (or sometimes, "at all"), please be sure to send a copy to me as well as the list. They are sorted differently, locally. Thanks.
if you are not interested, unsubscribe. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* L.A. Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> [01-01-70 12:34]: [...]
P.s. if you respond to me, and want me to see your reply in a reasonable time frame (or sometimes, "at all"), please be sure to send a copy to me as well as the list. They are sorted differently, locally. Thanks.
if you are not interested, unsubscribe.
I think you misunderstand. I don't believe I said I was uninterested in what they said. Conversely, I asked for the direct copy because I was more interested. Those who really don't want extra copies, will do as you have done and direct default reply to the list. Seems intelligent to me. But by default, list tries to direct a response to the user who sent it. Generally, unless someone sets the "Reply-To" field as you have done, the relevant mail RFC's say it the response should, at least go to the sender, with sending to the list being optional. IMO, you are showing intelligent behavior in choosing what you want, vs. blaming someone else for following applicable RFC's, but that's just my opinion... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* L A Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> [06-27-18 16:43]:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* L.A. Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> [01-01-70 12:34]: [...]
P.s. if you respond to me, and want me to see your reply in a reasonable time frame (or sometimes, "at all"), please be sure to send a copy to me as well as the list. They are sorted differently, locally. Thanks.
if you are not interested, unsubscribe.
I think you misunderstand.
I don't believe so.
I don't believe I said I was uninterested in what they said. Conversely, I asked for the direct copy because I was more interested.
Those who really don't want extra copies, will do as you have done and direct default reply to the list. Seems intelligent to me.
I do not set the "Reply-To:" header and did not.
But by default, list tries to direct a response to the user who sent it.
No, your mail client does.
Generally, unless someone sets the "Reply-To" field as you have done, the relevant mail RFC's say it the response should, at least go to the sender, with sending to the list being optional.
IMO, you are showing intelligent behavior in choosing what you want, vs. blaming someone else for following applicable RFC's, but that's just my opinion...
the discussion has been here before. you apparently are still not interested. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 27 Jun 2018 15:18:11 -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* L.A. Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> [01-01-70 12:34]: [...]
P.s. if you respond to me, and want me to see your reply in a reasonable time frame (or sometimes, "at all"), please be sure to send a copy to me as well as the list. They are sorted differently, locally. Thanks.
if you are not interested, unsubscribe.
Hello: Why do you think she is not interested? There can be several reasons why she wants some "more important" mails delivered directly to her mailbox too. For example she looks through the mailing list messages only occasionally, because she has no time to read it every day. In this case it is easy to miss messages. Or she wants to archive the original list messages for later use but don't want to read all of them. Her request is absolutely legitimate. Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Istvan Gabor <suseuser04@gmail.hu> [06-28-18 08:28]:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2018 15:18:11 -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* L.A. Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> [01-01-70 12:34]: [...]
P.s. if you respond to me, and want me to see your reply in a reasonable time frame (or sometimes, "at all"), please be sure to send a copy to me as well as the list. They are sorted differently, locally. Thanks.
if you are not interested, unsubscribe.
Hello:
Why do you think she is not interested? There can be several reasons why she wants some "more important" mails delivered directly to her mailbox too. For example she looks through the mailing list messages only occasionally, because she has no time to read it every day. In this case it is easy to miss messages. Or she wants to archive the original list messages for later use but don't want to read all of them. Her request is absolutely legitimate.
so write a filter for your email client that sends her personal mail when you respond to a post that she might find interesting enough to read. after all, one would not seek to interrupt her busy day. for now, I am going to the kitcfhen to get another cup of coffee. no time for more, but I might see a response the next time I read the list. but I definitely do not want to read two copies of the same mail. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
so write a filter for your email client that sends her personal mail when you respond to a post that she might find interesting enough to read. after all, one would not seek to interrupt her busy day. for now, I am going to the kitcfhen to get another cup of coffee. no time for more, but I might see a response the next time I read the list. but I definitely do not want to read two copies of the same mail.
I corrected the header in the next email, it's not reply-to, It's Mail-follow-up to -- and this is a perfect example -- becaue it was sent to the list and not directly to you -- you missed it. When I respond to all on your emails, it only goes to lit. When I response to you, it only goes to you (which it wouldn't if reply-to was used and set to the list). Other people, when using reply-to, get the author, and when using reply-to-all, get the list and the author. That's normal behavior following RFC's. Some mailers have a reply-to-list option -- which only sends to the list. Your mails are setup so that you only get 1 copy. I only see one outgoing address when I respond to you (whether reply-to (author) or reply-to-all). That's why I'm saying -- if someone only wants one -- email can be configured to, by default only send to one or other (author or list). It's the choice of the author. I simply use the normal default -- which would send to both author and list and ask people to leave me on the distribution line when responding to me. I ask them to do *less work*. I don't ask them to add my name, by default, it should already be there with most mailers unless they've configured it otherwise. By using email defaults, everyone can be happy -- but you don't seem to either "get" that or "want it"...why? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Donnerstag, 28. Juni 2018, 14:56:39 CEST schrieb L.A. Walsh:
That's normal behavior following RFC's. Some mailers have a reply-to-list option -- which only sends to the list.
Your mails are setup so that you only get 1 copy. I only see one outgoing address when I respond to you (whether reply-to (author) or reply-to-all).
That's why I'm saying -- if someone only wants one -- email can be configured to, by default only send to one or other (author or list). It's the choice of the author.
I simply use the normal default -- which would send to both author and list
You assume that "reply to all" is the default ;-) As you already mentioned, some mailers (I'd say "good mailers", but let's not start that discussion) have the "reply to list" option. Using "reply to list" is my default, and also seems to be the default for lots of other people here. "Reply to all" means (based on the mail I'm just typing) to send a copy to your inbox - I've seen you like that, but many people are annoyed by the superfluous additional mail copy. To make things more interesting, if someone answers my mail with "reply to all", that mail will already have me and you in CC, and some answers later, everybody gets a copy even if our ML server is down ;-))
and ask people to leave me on the distribution line when responding to me. I ask them to do *less work*. I don't ask them to add my name, by default, it should already be there with most mailers unless they've configured it otherwise.
For me it's more work because I have to use an unusual way of answering ("just" pressing another key - but if you remember that after you've already written half of the reply, it isn't that easy anymore). Also, if someone answers my mail with "reply to all" it's more work for me because I have to check and delete the duplicate in my inbox, while the mailinglist copy goes directly into the folder of the respective mailinglist.
By using email defaults, everyone can be happy -- but you don't seem to either "get" that or "want it"...why?
See above - for me, your way means more work. I'll avoid the words "right" or "wrong" ;-) - but nevertheless, I'm thankful for everybody who uses "reply to list" to avoid superfluous copies in my inbox, and the majority of people in this discussion seem to share this opinion. Regards, Christian Boltz PS: non-random signature from 10 years ago about "missing" Reply-To headers ;-) -- We voted and a big majority wanted it this way. So dont blame this on me. p.s. Although you can share-blame it on me. I was one of the peepz who voted for it ;) [Henne Vogelsang in opensuse-factory] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hello: I guess many of you misinterpreted what Linda asked for. She did not intend anyone to force to do more work. She did not ask anybody to do a favor for her. She asked that if you want to make sure that you get a response from her or make sure she will read your message at all, you send a copy of the message directly to her email address too. You don't do a favor for her, you do a favor for yourself (provided you want a reply from her). No one is obligated to change his habit of how to send emails. Anyone can absolutely disregard her request without consequences. It's that simple. Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 29/06/2018 à 12:25, Istvan Gabor a écrit :
of the message directly to her email address too. You don't do a favor for her, you do a favor for yourself (provided you want a reply from her).
sure, but very difficult to remember one special config among dozzens... often I no even know to whom I answer :-( jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Christian Boltz wrote:
As you already mentioned, some mailers (I'd say "good mailers", but let's not start that discussion) have the "reply to list" option.
Nice that you mention it. This is what I used to use. However, it relies on matching entries in the header section, and all I get nowadays from this list is an alert "No mailing lists found!"
Using "reply to list" is my default, and also seems to be the default for lots of other people here.
Is it still working for you? I now have to group-reply and edit recipients :(( -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 29/06/2018 à 13:47, Peter Suetterlin a écrit :
Christian Boltz wrote:
Using "reply to list" is my default, and also seems to be the default for lots of other people here.
Is it still working for you? I now have to group-reply and edit recipients :((
it's working for me (thunderbird, 42.3) jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Peter Suetterlin <pit@astro.su.se> [06-29-18 07:48]:
Christian Boltz wrote:
As you already mentioned, some mailers (I'd say "good mailers", but let's not start that discussion) have the "reply to list" option.
Nice that you mention it. This is what I used to use. However, it relies on matching entries in the header section, and all I get nowadays from this list is an alert "No mailing lists found!"
Using "reply to list" is my default, and also seems to be the default for lots of other people here.
Is it still working for you? I now have to group-reply and edit recipients :((
appears in every post from the listserver for this list X-Mailinglist: opensuse add to ~/.muttrc lists opensuse subscribe opensuse and/or lists opensuse* subscribe opensuse* -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
appears in every post from the listserver for this list X-Mailinglist: opensuse
Yes. This *used* to be the case. Have you checked lately?
add to ~/.muttrc lists opensuse subscribe opensuse
It worked without this before. Maybe you have this in (I don't), and therefore didn't notice the X-Mailinglist entry is gone? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Peter Suetterlin wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
appears in every post from the listserver for this list X-Mailinglist: opensuse
Yes. This *used* to be the case. Have you checked lately?
add to ~/.muttrc lists opensuse subscribe opensuse
It worked without this before. Maybe you have this in (I don't), and therefore didn't notice the X-Mailinglist entry is gone?
PS: Might actually be the List-Post entry that is missing? Old: X-Mailinglist: opensuse List-Post: <mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org> List-Help: <mailto:opensuse+help@opensuse.org> List-Subscribe: <mailto:opensuse+subscribe@opensuse.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org> List-Owner: <mailto:opensuse+owner@opensuse.org> List-Archive: <http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/> New: List-Help: <mailto:opensuse+help@opensuse.org> List-Subscribe: <mailto:opensuse+subscribe@opensuse.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2018-06-29 14:19, Peter Suetterlin wrote:
Peter Suetterlin wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
appears in every post from the listserver for this list X-Mailinglist: opensuse
Yes. This *used* to be the case. Have you checked lately?
add to ~/.muttrc lists opensuse subscribe opensuse
It worked without this before. Maybe you have this in (I don't), and therefore didn't notice the X-Mailinglist entry is gone?
PS: Might actually be the List-Post entry that is missing?
Old: X-Mailinglist: opensuse List-Post: <mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org> List-Help: <mailto:opensuse+help@opensuse.org> List-Subscribe: <mailto:opensuse+subscribe@opensuse.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org> List-Owner: <mailto:opensuse+owner@opensuse.org> List-Archive: <http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/>
New: List-Help: <mailto:opensuse+help@opensuse.org> List-Subscribe: <mailto:opensuse+subscribe@opensuse.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org>
No, List-Post is still there. And so is X-Mailinglist. I get: Precedence: bulk Mailing-List: contact opensuse+help@opensuse.org; run by mlmmj X-Mailinglist: opensuse List-Post: <mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org> List-Help: <mailto:opensuse+help@opensuse.org> List-Subscribe: <mailto:opensuse+subscribe@opensuse.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org> List-Owner: <mailto:opensuse+owner@opensuse.org> List-Archive: <http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/> X-MIME-Notice: attachments may have been removed from this message MIME-Version: 1.0 -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
* Peter Suetterlin <pit@astro.su.se> [06-29-18 08:16]:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
appears in every post from the listserver for this list X-Mailinglist: opensuse
Yes. This *used* to be the case. Have you checked lately?
from this/your post: Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 13:14:28 +0100 From: Peter Suetterlin <pit@astro.su.se> To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] Reply-to-List (was default replies in email) Message-ID: <20180629121428.modzzxxxfrsnz4ik@speedy> References: <5B2F1B32.2080009@tlinx.org> <20180628124106.57uezf2axusrvzoj@wahoo.no-ip.org> <5B34DB07.3040707@tlinx.org> <2067593.vC1Y5oWsAd@tux.boltz.de.vu> <20180629114753.a7h2366ujgyr4p3h@speedy> <20180629120502.n52fbgjhdzscvavo@wahoo.no-ip.org> Precedence: bulk Mailing-List: contact opensuse+help@opensuse.org; run by mlmmj *-> X-Mailinglist: opensuse List-Post: <mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org> List-Help: <mailto:opensuse+help@opensuse.org> List-Subscribe: <mailto:opensuse+subscribe@opensuse.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org> List-Owner: <mailto:opensuse+owner@opensuse.org> List-Archive: <http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/> X-MIME-Notice: attachments may have been removed from this message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20180629120502.n52fbgjhdzscvavo@wahoo.no-ip.org> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170421 (1.8.2) X-Envelope-From: opensuse+bounces-210342-paka=opensuse.org@opensuse.org Lines: 19
add to ~/.muttrc lists opensuse subscribe opensuse
It worked without this before. Maybe you have this in (I don't), and therefore didn't notice the X-Mailinglist entry is gone?
yes, I have used it for years and it still appears and works for opensuse lists. (still) that may change as all things do but has been consistant for a loong time. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
from this/your post:
Precedence: bulk Mailing-List: contact opensuse+help@opensuse.org; run by mlmmj *-> X-Mailinglist: opensuse List-Post: <mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org> List-Help: <mailto:opensuse+help@opensuse.org> List-Subscribe: <mailto:opensuse+subscribe@opensuse.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org> List-Owner: <mailto:opensuse+owner@opensuse.org> List-Archive: <http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/>
Aaah, interesting! I do *not* have those in my mail. Only the three I listed. So it must be Stockholm University mailer that is kicking those out. Well, what do you expect, we/they had migrated to Exchange :(( Guess I'll move opensuse mail subscriptions back to my own mailserver.... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Peter Suetterlin <pit@astro.su.se> [06-29-18 09:05]:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
from this/your post:
Precedence: bulk Mailing-List: contact opensuse+help@opensuse.org; run by mlmmj *-> X-Mailinglist: opensuse List-Post: <mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org> List-Help: <mailto:opensuse+help@opensuse.org> List-Subscribe: <mailto:opensuse+subscribe@opensuse.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org> List-Owner: <mailto:opensuse+owner@opensuse.org> List-Archive: <http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/>
Aaah, interesting! I do *not* have those in my mail. Only the three I listed.
So it must be Stockholm University mailer that is kicking those out. Well, what do you expect, we/they had migrated to Exchange :(( Guess I'll move opensuse mail subscriptions back to my own mailserver....
yes, for quite some time, maybe this century :) -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Peter Suetterlin wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
from this/your post:
Precedence: bulk Mailing-List: contact opensuse+help@opensuse.org; run by mlmmj *-> X-Mailinglist: opensuse List-Post: <mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org> List-Help: <mailto:opensuse+help@opensuse.org> List-Subscribe: <mailto:opensuse+subscribe@opensuse.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org> List-Owner: <mailto:opensuse+owner@opensuse.org> List-Archive: <http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/>
Aaah, interesting! I do *not* have those in my mail. Only the three I listed.
So it must be Stockholm University mailer that is kicking those out.
I have to say - that is just downright stupid. Maybe talk to the postmaster? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (25.8°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2018-06-29 17:27, Per Jessen wrote:
I have to say - that is just downright stupid. Maybe talk to the postmaster?
You would probably just be confronted with "X- is deprecated". Which it is. The use of X- is deprecated since years ago and where there there are standardized headers you should use them instead. In this case List-Id has been standardized since 2005 and may I point out, by Jacob Palme emeritus professor at su.se :) ref. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4021 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6648 Cheers, -- /bengan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Bengt Gördén <bengan@bag.org> [06-29-18 14:04]:
On 2018-06-29 17:27, Per Jessen wrote:
I have to say - that is just downright stupid. Maybe talk to the postmaster?
You would probably just be confronted with "X- is deprecated". Which it is. The use of X- is deprecated since years ago and where there there are standardized headers you should use them instead. In this case List-Id has been standardized since 2005 and may I point out, by Jacob Palme emeritus professor at su.se :)
ref.
then it is siimple to look for List-Post:.*opensuse insteadof using the depricated for years but still *commonly* used X-<whatever> -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org> [06-29-18 15:03]:
* Bengt Gördén <bengan@bag.org> [06-29-18 14:04]:
On 2018-06-29 17:27, Per Jessen wrote:
I have to say - that is just downright stupid. Maybe talk to the postmaster?
You would probably just be confronted with "X- is deprecated". Which it is. The use of X- is deprecated since years ago and where there there are standardized headers you should use them instead. In this case List-Id has been standardized since 2005 and may I point out, by Jacob Palme emeritus professor at su.se :)
ref.
then it is siimple to look for List-Post:.*opensuse insteadof using the depricated for years but still *commonly* used X-<whatever>
fwiw: any header line that is consistant to the mail list can be used. after all, it is just looking for a flag and applying your choice of actions for that flag. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Bengt Gördén wrote:
On 2018-06-29 17:27, Per Jessen wrote:
I have to say - that is just downright stupid. Maybe talk to the postmaster?
You would probably just be confronted with "X- is deprecated". Which it is.
I wasn't specifically talking about the X- header, but more about the List- ditto. Besides, even if a header is deprecated, it does not mean an MTA should be removing them. An MUA may not want to use them, that's all. I stand by what I said. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (19.6°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
Besides, even if a header is deprecated, it does not mean an MTA should be removing them. An MUA may not want to use them, that's all. I stand by what I said.
And you're not standing alone there ;^> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 05:56:39 -0700 "L.A. Walsh" <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
so write a filter for your email client that sends her personal mail when you respond to a post that she might find interesting enough to read. after all, one would not seek to interrupt her busy day. for now, I am going to the kitcfhen to get another cup of coffee. no time for more, but I might see a response the next time I read the list. but I definitely do not want to read two copies of the same mail.
I corrected the header in the next email, it's not reply-to, It's Mail-follow-up to -- and this is a perfect example -- becaue it was sent to the list and not directly to you -- you missed it.
When I respond to all on your emails, it only goes to lit. When I response to you, it only goes to you (which it wouldn't if reply-to was used and set to the list).
Other people, when using reply-to, get the author, and when using reply-to-all, get the list and the author.
That's normal behavior following RFC's. Some mailers have a reply-to-list option -- which only sends to the list.
Your mails are setup so that you only get 1 copy. I only see one outgoing address when I respond to you (whether reply-to (author) or reply-to-all).
That's why I'm saying -- if someone only wants one -- email can be configured to, by default only send to one or other (author or list). It's the choice of the author.
I simply use the normal default -- which would send to both author and list and ask people to leave me on the distribution line when responding to me. I ask them to do *less work*. I don't ask them to add my name, by default, it should already be there with most mailers unless they've configured it otherwise.
By using email defaults, everyone can be happy -- but you don't seem to either "get" that or "want it"...why?
You all probably need to look at the headers that are actually there and then go and look at the explanations on the opensuse website that explicitly ASK PEOPLE NOT TO DISCUSS THIS ISSUE ON THE MAILING LISTS since its been discussed so many times before. FWIW, if you want a private copy sent to you as well, then the onus is on YOU to set a Reply-To header to yourself to say that. And that mechanism works. No need to ask others to do anything on your behalf. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Dave Howorth <dave@howorth.org.uk> [06-28-18 15:40]: [...]
FWIW, if you want a private copy sent to you as well, then the onus is on YOU to set a Reply-To header to yourself to say that. And that mechanism works. No need to ask others to do anything on your behalf.
then her "Reply-To:" mudging needs to also include the list addr or *only* a private reply will be sent. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/23/2018 11:16 PM, L A Walsh wrote:
I followed an opensuse advert for selling data storage for body-cams to police.
It went through some redirects on google, then went to www.suse.com, where I prompt got some weird error I can't reproduce because google is serving up a different advert, and I don't know the URL because google encrypts the SSL stream (recently upgraded my squid and have yet to pop in a new local cert to decode it).
I agree with your frustrations, while security is a good thing, when it hinders instead of helps people access information, then somewhere we have put the "cart before the horse". After watching the thread I decided to test with FF, and had no problems, but was surprised to see the On Again/Off Again relationship with M$ appears definitely back on, e.g. http://paste.opensuse.org/27577090 Though, as opposed to a decade ago, M$ has done quite a number of good things with open-source, especially with Satya Nadella at the helm. (though that doesn't mean it's time to avert the close eye you have been keeping on the relationship) Ah, but I digress. Either the suse.com has received some TLC in the past 24 hours, or I was lucky enough to avoid the problem (though I have javascript blocked with NoScript and Ublock-Origin preventing the other half of the mix.) -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
David C. Rankin wrote:
Ah, but I digress. Either the suse.com has received some TLC in the past 24 hours, or I was lucky enough to avoid the problem (though I have javascript blocked with NoScript and Ublock-Origin preventing the other half of the mix.)
It has to do with my following recommendations from ssllabs.com who, among other sites, cited: https://community.qualys.com/thread/18086-authenticated-encryption-cipher-su... where it says 'RSA' is vulnerable to a specific type of attack and recommends it be turned off to achieve a higher security grade. They have a list of recommended TLS ciphers. If I add back at least 1 of the RSA ciphers, then my browser will go through because the both the forums.opensuse.org and suse.com sites only use the lower grade RSA ciphers. Many (probably Most) still enable the lower security ciphers for compatibility with sites like opensuse's, that have not yet changed. p.s. -- if you want me to see what you wrote in reasonable time frame, please make sure to send a copy to me as well as to the list. Copies to the list go to a list mailbox, while copies to me go to a more personal mailbox which gets seen more often. List mailboxes may not get seen for weeks and sometimes large numbers of messages are skipped over when I get back to them. It depends on how much extra time I have. When busy, such a system enables me to prioritize communications. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/27/2018 01:28 AM, L A Walsh wrote:
p.s. -- if you want me to see what you wrote in reasonable time frame, please make sure to send a copy to me as well as to the list. Copies to the list go to a list mailbox, while copies to me go to a more personal mailbox which gets seen more often. List mailboxes may not get seen for weeks and sometimes large numbers of messages are skipped over when I get back to them. It depends on how much extra time I have. When busy, such a system enables me to prioritize communications.
Which (reply to sender) is STILL the list default, I believe. (After all these years). But making a habit of that that will get you several nastygrams from people insisting they want only the list copy, and you have to remember each person's preference. I add a filter to my MUA on the body of message, if it mentions my name, then it flags the message. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2018-06-27 19:37, John Andersen wrote:
On 06/27/2018 01:28 AM, L A Walsh wrote:
p.s. -- if you want me to see what you wrote in reasonable time frame, please make sure to send a copy to me as well as to the list. Copies to the list go to a list mailbox, while copies to me go to a more personal mailbox which gets seen more often. List mailboxes may not get seen for weeks and sometimes large numbers of messages are skipped over when I get back to them. It depends on how much extra time I have. When busy, such a system enables me to prioritize communications.
Which (reply to sender) is STILL the list default, I believe. (After all these years).
But making a habit of that that will get you several nastygrams from people insisting they want only the list copy, and you have to remember each person's preference.
I add a filter to my MUA on the body of message, if it mentions my name, then it flags the message.
I have a filter on Thunderbird to Watch a thread where I participated. It is quite difficult to miss a response sooner or later. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I have a filter on Thunderbird to Watch a thread where I participated. It is quite difficult to miss a response sooner or later.
--- At the moment, I have 68 mail folders that are checked for new (incoming) mail. Don't have time to go through all of them on any regular basis. Some make a point, but still I did say if anyone wanted a "timely" response. Also my mboxes are threaded, so sometimes new responses are hidden under an unexpanded thread. I'm not sure my TB has the ability to watch a specific thread. For the copies that are addressed specifically to me at one of my domain addresses, they go into a "Domain" folder. It's easier to look at 1 folder for direct responses than to go through near 70 of them... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2018-06-27 23:57, L.A. Walsh wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I have a filter on Thunderbird to Watch a thread where I participated. It is quite difficult to miss a response sooner or later.
--- At the moment, I have 68 mail folders that are checked for new (incoming) mail. Don't have time to go through all of them on any regular basis. Some make a point, but still I did say if anyone wanted a "timely" response.
I have 147, only for mail lists.
Also my mboxes are threaded, so sometimes new responses are hidden under an unexpanded thread. I'm not sure my TB has the ability to watch a specific thread.
Yes, it has. IF you are using the openSUSE currently supplied TB for Leap.
For the copies that are addressed specifically to me at one of my domain addresses, they go into a "Domain" folder. It's easier to look at 1 folder for direct responses than to go through near 70 of them...
But I have to mentally remember that YOU are different and address this post differently. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Yes, it has. IF you are using the openSUSE currently supplied TB for Leap.
--- I use windows as desktop and linux as server (thus mail server+host) so not using using linux TB...but a Windows TB. Still _by_default_, mail has all the options one would need -- unless one doesn't follow the RFC's and trims addresses off outgoing email that appear there by default. Those who only want one copy can apparently use the Mail-follow-up and only get 1 copy whether to self or list. That seems ideal, where as ifyou don't use that you can get a copy sent to self & list -- it seems perfect. So wouldn't it make sense to use it? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2018-06-28 16:37, L.A. Walsh wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Yes, it has. IF you are using the openSUSE currently supplied TB for Leap.
--- I use windows as desktop and linux as server (thus mail server+host)
so not using using linux TB...but a Windows TB.
Possibly an ancient Windows version of Thunderbird. My Windows TB has a reply to list button and that's what I use, either in Linux or Windows. Except when I remember that you want a direct copy. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
John Andersen wrote:
On 06/27/2018 01:28 AM, L A Walsh wrote:
p.s. -- if you want me to see what you wrote in reasonable time frame...
Which (reply to sender) is STILL the list default, I believe. (After all these years).
Well, AFAIK, that behavior is called for by applicable RFC's.
But making a habit of that that will get you several nastygrams from people insisting they want only the list copy, and you have to remember each person's preference.
They have preference to filter out extras, however, if I only send it one place or the other and they miss it, they can't exactly duplicate it and put it in other location.
I add a filter to my MUA on the body of message, if it mentions my name, then it flags the message.
--- Your MUA? Mail reader? In conversations (in person), if someone makes a comment, and someone else responds or replies, they usually address the person who just made the comment as well as looking at the group, as it is in a group context. To only respond to group and ignore questioner would be considered rude in most contexts as responding only to that person and ignoring the group might make the group feel left out of the private conversation. In email, the 1st can apply, while if one only responds to the person, the group isn't likely to see it -- which can be appropriate or not based on message. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* L A Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> [01-01-70 12:34]:
p.s. -- if you want me to see what you wrote in reasonable time frame, please make sure to send a copy to me as well as to the list. Copies to the list go to a list mailbox, while copies to me go to a more personal mailbox which gets seen more often. List mailboxes may not get seen for weeks and sometimes large numbers of messages are skipped over when I get back to them. It depends on how much extra time I have. When busy, such a system enables me to prioritize communications.
then YOU need to install filters that divert threads were you are active to show in the mail box you desire instead of imposing on everyone else to ignore courteous and expected email responses and the expected action in opensuse-* lists. why do you expect everyone else to change for YOU? -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/27/2018 12:17 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
courteous and expected email responses and the expected action in opensuse-* lists
As she explained elsewhere, the expected action in opensuse lists is reply to sender. It is explicitly set up that way. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2018-06-27 22:52, John Andersen wrote:
On 06/27/2018 12:17 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
courteous and expected email responses and the expected action in opensuse-* lists
As she explained elsewhere, the expected action in opensuse lists is reply to sender.
It is explicitly set up that way.
No, the expected action is to reply to the list only. It is in the rules somewhere. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 2018-06-28 08:01 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2018-06-27 22:52, John Andersen wrote:
On 06/27/2018 12:17 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
courteous and expected email responses and the expected action in opensuse-* lists As she explained elsewhere, the expected action in opensuse lists is reply to sender.
It is explicitly set up that way. No, the expected action is to reply to the list only. It is in the rules somewhere.
Here's what you are looking for: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette Personal and mail list answers Rule of thumb: If the user has sent the reply to you and to the list, then respond to *only* the list unless the poster *specifically* requests personal mail. Replies to the posts (emails) that you receive through the mail list should go to back to the list so that others searching the archives at a later date can benefit. In case when your reply is not related to the thread use direct mail. It also says if you want a personal copy as well as a list copy, you should set a "reply-to" address (well, who would have thought of that? ;) ) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2018-06-29 15:01, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
On 2018-06-28 08:01 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2018-06-27 22:52, John Andersen wrote:
On 06/27/2018 12:17 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
courteous and expected email responses and the expected action in opensuse-* lists As she explained elsewhere, the expected action in opensuse lists is reply to sender.
It is explicitly set up that way. No, the expected action is to reply to the list only. It is in the rules somewhere.
Here's what you are looking for:
Yes. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
then YOU need to install filters that divert threads were you are active to show in the mail box you desire instead of imposing on everyone else to ignore courteous and expected email responses and the expected action in opensuse-* lists.
Um..."courteous and expected"...who is forcing them to change to something that goes against RFC behaviors and the default behavior? IF you force them to send something other than the default, then it disallows people choosing what to receive.
why do you expect everyone else to change for YOU?
--- I don't. If someone responds to my email, and uses "Reply-All, by default, it will go to me and the list. Accepting the default is not forcing them to change. You are exercising your choice by putting in a 'Mail-Follow-Up' header that only sends it to the list if they reply to all. OTOH, you are trying to take away my choice of what others receive by default. Why are you trying to force people to take away other's choice? Where did you get that I'm asking for anything other than the default mail-client behavior? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (17)
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Andrew Colvin -
Bengt Gördén -
Carlos E. R. -
Christian Boltz -
Darryl Gregorash -
Dave Howorth -
David C. Rankin -
Istvan Gabor -
jdd＠dodin.org -
John Andersen -
L A Walsh -
L.A. Walsh
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Liam Proven -
Mathias Homann -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Peter Suetterlin