[opensuse] Which distros for ReiserFS?
On the odd chance that I was ignored for possibly hijacking a thread, I shall start a new one but copy and paste my comments in hope of an answer: (re: Killing ReiserFS) I have been following this thread with some interest because of having been running ReiserFS since before he turned homicidal. I have had zero, count that ZERO, problems in all that time so I read with some dismay the effort to actively kill its usage in this whatever-you-call-it distro. I think that the more relevant question to ask is not "can we keep this file system around, pretty please" but "what distros are allowing its use by not actively trying to kill it"? I have used opensuse since before Mandrake went away, which has been a while and, although I don't really want to change distros, I am not married to suse (or leap, or whatever). I feel that what we have here with opensuse/leap is an example of the classic "swing" cartoon which shows the stages of project development from sales, engineering, installation and what the customer actually wanted. My need is not as complex as some and for that ReiserFS works quite well. So, my question remains, "If not suse/leap, then who"? Hopefully someone will know what distros allow the freedom to use whichever FS one wishes without running afoul of the FS nazis. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20 September 2017 at 08:45, Stevens <fred-n-sandy@myrhinomail.com> wrote:
On the odd chance that I was ignored for possibly hijacking a thread, I shall start a new one but copy and paste my comments in hope of an answer:
(re: Killing ReiserFS) I have been following this thread with some interest because of having been running ReiserFS since before he turned homicidal. I have had zero, count that ZERO, problems in all that time so I read with some dismay the effort to actively kill its usage in this whatever-you-call-it distro.
I think that the more relevant question to ask is not "can we keep this file system around, pretty please" but "what distros are allowing its use by not actively trying to kill it"? I have used opensuse since before Mandrake went away, which has been a while and, although I don't really want to change distros, I am not married to suse (or leap, or whatever).
I feel that what we have here with opensuse/leap is an example of the classic "swing" cartoon which shows the stages of project development from sales, engineering, installation and what the customer actually wanted. My need is not as complex as some and for that ReiserFS works quite well.
So, my question remains, "If not suse/leap, then who"?
Hopefully someone will know what distros allow the freedom to use whichever FS one wishes without running afoul of the FS nazis.
I'm not aware of any distribution that still allows installation with ReiserFS Debian removed it in Jessie (2015) Ubuntu removed it in 13.10 (2013) Fedora never had support Antergos never had support Manjaro never had support And almost all of the other distributions I can see in the top 20 of Distrowatch are either derivatives of the above or I also am pretty sure don't have support I think the more sensible option is to reconsider your use of an obsolete filesystem that has been collectively be rejected by the vast majority of distributors (if not all) rather than choosing a different distribution. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/09/2017 09:03, Richard Brown wrote:
On 20 September 2017 at 08:45, Stevens <fred-n-sandy@myrhinomail.com> wrote:
On the odd chance that I was ignored for possibly hijacking a thread, I shall start a new one but copy and paste my comments in hope of an answer:
(re: Killing ReiserFS) I have been following this thread with some interest because of having been running ReiserFS since before he turned homicidal. I have had zero, count that ZERO, problems in all that time so I read with some dismay the effort to actively kill its usage in this whatever-you-call-it distro.
I think that the more relevant question to ask is not "can we keep this file system around, pretty please" but "what distros are allowing its use by not actively trying to kill it"? I have used opensuse since before Mandrake went away, which has been a while and, although I don't really want to change distros, I am not married to suse (or leap, or whatever).
I feel that what we have here with opensuse/leap is an example of the classic "swing" cartoon which shows the stages of project development from sales, engineering, installation and what the customer actually wanted. My need is not as complex as some and for that ReiserFS works quite well.
So, my question remains, "If not suse/leap, then who"?
Hopefully someone will know what distros allow the freedom to use whichever FS one wishes without running afoul of the FS nazis.
I'm not aware of any distribution that still allows installation with ReiserFS
Debian removed it in Jessie (2015) Ubuntu removed it in 13.10 (2013) Fedora never had support Antergos never had support Manjaro never had support
And almost all of the other distributions I can see in the top 20 of Distrowatch are either derivatives of the above or I also am pretty sure don't have support
I think the more sensible option is to reconsider your use of an obsolete filesystem that has been collectively be rejected by the vast majority of distributors (if not all) rather than choosing a different distribution.
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /? Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com> wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/09/2017 09:28, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com> wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
I don't think that btrfs is a good choice for a user with limited space but I suppose if btrfs can do it other major file systems should be able to? Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dne 20.9.2017 v 09:44 Dave Plater napsal(a):
On 20/09/2017 09:28, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com> wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
I don't know how good this tool is, let's suppose enough good. :-)
I don't think that btrfs is a good choice for a user with limited space but I suppose if btrfs can do it other major file systems should be able to?
If You are aware of space taken by snapshots, turn them off. Otherwise, I don't know which feature should Btrfs be missing. Nothing cames to my mind. -- Vojtěch Zeisek Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/ https://trapa.cz/cs
On 20/09/2017 09:28, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com> wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
I see that debian/ubuntu have fstransform but openSUSE only has it in obs/filesystems. Does anybody have any experience using it? Would be a good thing to have in the release. BTW don't look at me to submit it to factory all my time is already taken up on package maintenance. Best regards Dave Plater -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 16:58:01 ACST Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com> wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Btrfs is a great choice - if you want to end up with an unbootable system after a few shapshots have used up all available disk space on the root filesystem, leaving the system unbootable and unrecoverable (and all because it doesn’t use sensible defaults and there is no warning during installation that the defaults need to be tweaked to prevent this). Hmm - just had a thought. Maybe btrfs is actually a VLTLA for “Ban The Reiser File System”. ;) -- ============================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au CCNA #CSCO12880208 ============================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20 September 2017 at 11:12, Rodney Baker <rodney.baker@iinet.net.au> wrote:
On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 16:58:01 ACST Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com> wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Btrfs is a great choice - if you want to end up with an unbootable system after a few shapshots have used up all available disk space on the root filesystem, leaving the system unbootable and unrecoverable (and all because it doesn’t use sensible defaults and there is no warning during installation that the defaults need to be tweaked to prevent this).
Apart from the following facts snapshots are not created by btrfs, but by snapper - You don't blame your filesystem when your porn collection fills it up, why do you blame it when your snapshotting tool does? Especially when you can configure it. snapper is no longer enabled on small disks. There is a clear warning during installation if you try and force otherwise. and snapper is now aware of how much space it is using and tidies up after itself based on space availability So, what exactly isn't sensible about the current defaults? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/09/17 06:00 AM, Richard Brown wrote:
Apart from the following facts
You are arguing my case, Richard. These are all excellent reasons for those here who want to fiddle, have time to fiddle, or for the proper IT department admins. They are excellent reasons to write manuals, books and run courses. All money-making enterprises. They are all reasons why the home user, the non-technical user, the small business that hasn't a supporting geek, should avoid BtrFS. And, for that matter, file systems such as ext4 that need pre-analysis to choose the right model out of /etc/mke2fs.conf. They are all reasons why ReiserFS is more suitable for the situations where the corporations that manage the major distributions don't want t go. They are uneconomical compared to the Big Shops that run Big Servers. I've been to the "SUSE Days" marketing and future announcements regularly as the come here to Toronto each years for some while now. They are good shows. Not only are the technical support guys good and both knowledgeable ad articulate, the marketing guys are very technically knowledgeable as well. But it is very clear that they are addressing an up-market. The features, all the way from the build service as a means of deployment and distribution across a corporate WAN, to resilience with the use of BtrFS+raid across hundreds of spindles[1]. This is well and good. I understand business economics and economies of scale. It just means that Suse, like others, are admitting that Linux can't, economically, own the desktop. This is true. Linux-as-we-are-using-it will run on old desktop machines. You don't need trash your old machines with each new release. This is bad for the economy, especially with Global Trade. Trashing each generation of machines, and this is supported by our taxation system with the way such assets are depreciated in the accounting system, means that there are always a flow of new one, which means jobs all the way don't the line, not only in manufacturing but packaging,distribution, sales and more. There are jobs for the telcos so people can phone in orders and phone to asks why their shipment hasn't been delivered. There's jobs for the auto forms to make the brown vans that deliver the parts, there's jobs for the gas station attendants that run the gas stations that supply the fuel for the brown vans. The social impact of not trashing your equipment regularly is enormous! If you think that Microsoft was in cahoots with the PC vendors then you lack imagination! But the server market is growing. With the rise of the popularity of the cloud server farms are more in demand. Desktops are being replaced by chromebooks and tablets and phones. So Suse's marketing direction makes sense, doesn't it? [1] That picture of the RAID room had at least 20 cabinets that I could see. I suspect, based on my experience with such products from IBM, HP and some 3rd party vendors at sites where I've worked that each cabinet had at least four 'drawers' of four or five drives. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Op woensdag 20 september 2017 11:12:13 CEST schreef Rodney Baker:
On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 16:58:01 ACST Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com>
wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Btrfs is a great choice - if you want to end up with an unbootable system after a few shapshots have used up all available disk space on the root filesystem, leaving the system unbootable and unrecoverable (and all because it doesn’t use sensible defaults and there is no warning during installation that the defaults need to be tweaked to prevent this).
Hmm - just had a thought. Maybe btrfs is actually a VLTLA for “Ban The Reiser File System”. ;)
Says someone who's not using btrfs ?? -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-09-20 12:02, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
Op woensdag 20 september 2017 11:12:13 CEST schreef Rodney Baker:
On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 16:58:01 ACST Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com>
wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Btrfs is a great choice - if you want to end up with an unbootable system after a few shapshots have used up all available disk space on the root filesystem, leaving the system unbootable and unrecoverable (and all because it doesn’t use sensible defaults and there is no warning during installation that the defaults need to be tweaked to prevent this).
Hmm - just had a thought. Maybe btrfs is actually a VLTLA for “Ban The Reiser File System”. ;)
Says someone who's not using btrfs ??
Rather said by people that tried it, had an unbootable system, and had to reinstall. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
Op woensdag 20 september 2017 13:11:46 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:
On 2017-09-20 12:02, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
Op woensdag 20 september 2017 11:12:13 CEST schreef Rodney Baker:
On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 16:58:01 ACST Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com>
wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Btrfs is a great choice - if you want to end up with an unbootable system after a few shapshots have used up all available disk space on the root filesystem, leaving the system unbootable and unrecoverable (and all because it doesn’t use sensible defaults and there is no warning during installation that the defaults need to be tweaked to prevent this).
Hmm - just had a thought. Maybe btrfs is actually a VLTLA for “Ban The Reiser File System”. ;)
Says someone who's not using btrfs ??
Rather said by people that tried it, had an unbootable system, and had to reinstall.
And that was when ? Mind, I've had some serious issue ( after someone pulled the plug from the machine ) with btrfs before it was the default fs on openSUSE. But btrfs has come a long way and IME is completely reliable. -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-20-17 07:14]:
On 2017-09-20 12:02, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
Op woensdag 20 september 2017 11:12:13 CEST schreef Rodney Baker:
On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 16:58:01 ACST Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com>
wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Btrfs is a great choice - if you want to end up with an unbootable system after a few shapshots have used up all available disk space on the root filesystem, leaving the system unbootable and unrecoverable (and all because it doesn’t use sensible defaults and there is no warning during installation that the defaults need to be tweaked to prevent this).
Hmm - just had a thought. Maybe btrfs is actually a VLTLA for “Ban The Reiser File System”. ;)
Says someone who's not using btrfs ??
Rather said by people that tried it, had an unbootable system, and had to reinstall.
and these same people have never had an "unbootable system" from other causes or filesystem and gave no "second chance". -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-09-20 13:21, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-20-17 07:14]:
On 2017-09-20 12:02, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
Op woensdag 20 september 2017 11:12:13 CEST schreef Rodney Baker:
On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 16:58:01 ACST Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com>
wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Btrfs is a great choice - if you want to end up with an unbootable system after a few shapshots have used up all available disk space on the root filesystem, leaving the system unbootable and unrecoverable (and all because it doesn’t use sensible defaults and there is no warning during installation that the defaults need to be tweaked to prevent this).
Hmm - just had a thought. Maybe btrfs is actually a VLTLA for “Ban The Reiser File System”. ;)
Says someone who's not using btrfs ??
Rather said by people that tried it, had an unbootable system, and had to reinstall.
and these same people have never had an "unbootable system" from other causes or filesystem and gave no "second chance".
Oh, I have, but I become wary; on all ocassions (without btrfs) I knew what to do and the tools guided the process. With btrfs some people have been bitten three times (reinstall system from scratch). Btrfs is a brilliant filesystem, but also a risky one, IMO. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 20/09/17 07:21 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
and these same people have never had an "unbootable system" from other causes or filesystem and gave no "second chance".
Yes, I've had unbootable systems ... with ext2, ext3, XFS, BtrFS, but NEVER EVER with ReiserFS. I've given BrtFS that second chance, but I also ha to do a lot of admin fiddling. The 'out of the box' might be OK for a server farm but it is not for a desktop. OBTW, the unbootable BtrFS was a FS failure not an out of space condition. I wasn't foolish enough to let BtrFS take over all space! -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-09-20 15:10, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 20/09/17 07:21 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
and these same people have never had an "unbootable system" from other causes or filesystem and gave no "second chance".
Yes, I've had unbootable systems ... with ext2, ext3, XFS, BtrFS, but NEVER EVER with ReiserFS.
I had, once. I don't remember if it was unbootable because I don't remember if it was the "/" parttion, but it was a broken beyond repair partition, although it was readable for backup/restore, I think. It was a bug that appeared where two different files, different names, the filesystem thought they had the same name - after they were created. Someone mentioned the bug in the mail list and I tried to reproduce. Yes, it did. Sigh. Now I don't try in a production filesystem ;-) And the bug was solved. I also have a recollection of a terrible corruption that did not allow the partition to be mounted and read. Recovery was impossible. I think the cause was power failure related or bad human error on my part. I don't remember that well. I have had terrible incidents with all filesystems. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 09/20/2017 08:10 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 20/09/17 07:21 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
and these same people have never had an "unbootable system" from other causes or filesystem and gave no "second chance".
Yes, I've had unbootable systems ... with ext2, ext3, XFS, BtrFS, but NEVER EVER with ReiserFS.
I've given BrtFS that second chance, but I also ha to do a lot of admin fiddling. The 'out of the box' might be OK for a server farm but it is not for a desktop.
OBTW, the unbootable BtrFS was a FS failure not an out of space condition. I wasn't foolish enough to let BtrFS take over all space!
$ grep reiserfs /proc/mounts /dev/sda2 /mnt/pv reiserfs rw,relatime 0 0 $ cat /mnt/pv/etc/SuSE-release SUSE LINUX 10.0 (i586) OSS VERSION = 10.0 $ l /mnt/pv/etc/SuSE-release -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 42 Sep 12 2005 /mnt/pv/etc/SuSE-release No issues in 12 years.... That speaks well of the filesystem. I can't believe the old Maxtor DiamondMax 10 (ATA/133 and SATA/150) is still spinning... but it is :) -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/09/2017 13:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2017-09-20 12:02, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
Op woensdag 20 september 2017 11:12:13 CEST schreef Rodney Baker:
On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 16:58:01 ACST Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com>
wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Btrfs is a great choice - if you want to end up with an unbootable system after a few shapshots have used up all available disk space on the root filesystem, leaving the system unbootable and unrecoverable (and all because it doesn’t use sensible defaults and there is no warning during installation that the defaults need to be tweaked to prevent this).
Hmm - just had a thought. Maybe btrfs is actually a VLTLA for “Ban The Reiser File System”. ;)
Says someone who's not using btrfs ??
Rather said by people that tried it, had an unbootable system, and had to reinstall.
Don't forget to read this relevant to btrfs: https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2017-09/msg00291.html Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/09/17 07:11 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Says someone who's not using btrfs ??
Rather said by people that tried it, had an unbootable system, and had to reinstall.
In other words "Says someone who is no longer using it" .. for very good reasons. +1 -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Rodney Baker <rodney.baker@iinet.net.au> [09-20-17 05:34]:
On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 16:58:01 ACST Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com> wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Btrfs is a great choice - if you want to end up with an unbootable system after a few shapshots have used up all available disk space on the root filesystem, leaving the system unbootable and unrecoverable (and all because it doesn’t use sensible defaults and there is no warning during installation that the defaults need to be tweaked to prevent this).
*you* are able to change the defaults. I presently have 4 boxes with btrfs roots and cannot remember ever a problem with the file system or space available. and I believe the default space settings have been changed. of course we can continue to throw out the baby with the wash water and never again use btrfs because it was once dangerous and we never checked again.
Hmm - just had a thought. Maybe btrfs is actually a VLTLA for “Ban The Reiser File System”. ;)
not quite sure what that means or was intended but am sure it is really necessary. sarcasm is a double edged sword. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-09-20 13:17, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Rodney Baker <rodney.baker@iinet.net.au> [09-20-17 05:34]:
On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 16:58:01 ACST Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com> wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Btrfs is a great choice - if you want to end up with an unbootable system after a few shapshots have used up all available disk space on the root filesystem, leaving the system unbootable and unrecoverable (and all because it doesn’t use sensible defaults and there is no warning during installation that the defaults need to be tweaked to prevent this).
*you* are able to change the defaults.
Sure, but defaults should just work. Proof that they were wrong are RB words in this thread: «snapper is no longer enabled on small disks. There is a clear warning during installation if you try and force otherwise.» «and snapper is now aware of how much space it is using and tidies up after itself based on space availability»
I presently have 4 boxes with btrfs roots and cannot remember ever a problem with the file system or space available.
But many people had the contrary experience. I have read of many.
and I believe the default space settings have been changed. of course we can continue to throw out the baby with the wash water and never again use btrfs because it was once dangerous and we never checked again.
I don't trust it "not being dangerous" now. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-20-17 07:33]:
On 2017-09-20 13:17, Patrick Shanahan wrote: [...]
*you* are able to change the defaults.
Sure, but defaults should just work. Proof that they were wrong are RB words in this thread:
«snapper is no longer enabled on small disks. There is a clear warning during installation if you try and force otherwise.»
«and snapper is now aware of how much space it is using and tidies up after itself based on space availability»
I presently have 4 boxes with btrfs roots and cannot remember ever a problem with the file system or space available.
But many people had the contrary experience. I have read of many.
and I believe the default space settings have been changed. of course we can continue to throw out the baby with the wash water and never again use btrfs because it was once dangerous and we never checked again.
I don't trust it "not being dangerous" now.
Ah, a scientific approach. so if it is not used and never considered it becomes somewhat safe. and never will become "not being dangerous" as it is never again tried. where was it that the ostrich placed his head? what would make you gain trust in it? using it w/o problems? or just summarily banning it's existence? -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-09-20 13:40, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [09-20-17 07:33]:
...
I don't trust it "not being dangerous" now.
Ah, a scientific approach. so if it is not used and never considered it becomes somewhat safe. and never will become "not being dangerous" as it is never again tried. where was it that the ostrich placed his head?
I am very careful with my filesystems. I'll let others do the testing. I see you volunteered :-)
what would make you gain trust in it? using it w/o problems? or just summarily banning it's existence?
I watch it. It has features I want. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
Am 20.09.2017 um 13:40 schrieb Patrick Shanahan:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-20-17 07:33]:
I don't trust it "not being dangerous" now.
Ah, a scientific approach. so if it is not used and never considered it becomes somewhat safe. and never will become "not being dangerous" as it is never again tried. where was it that the ostrich placed his head?
what would make you gain trust in it? using it w/o problems? or just summarily banning it's existence?
You cannot expect from everybody to take part in system testing, may it be for lack of knowledge, lack of time or lack of interest, or you must say that linux is only for a computer-freaky marginal group. But I think linux is also for just "normal" users who simply decide whether they prefer windows, mac or linux and who, maybe, like the open source approach for many reasons but cannot take part in it's development. I believe these people are valuable users, too, and while their contribution is not actively testing or developing, at least they help spread the idea and increase the popularity of linux. While I see that Carlos really knows a lot and helps a lot, others, like me, must just trust on the knowledge and responsibility of the people who make the distribution we use. I would only change to a new file system, or system at all, if there is not much noise on mailing lists about that. About btrfs there is still a lot. I confess, that I do not understand the details, but the fact, that there is a lot of noise is enough for me to make me refuse the use of it until the occurrence of related problems calms down to a normal amount of obviously solvable things. This would be the moment when I personally consider a file system "not being dangerous" anymore. -- Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Barcelona https://www.patreon.com/danielbauer http://www.daniel-bauer.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Op woensdag 20 september 2017 14:39:34 CEST schreef Daniel Bauer:
Am 20.09.2017 um 13:40 schrieb Patrick Shanahan:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [09-20-17 07:33]:
I don't trust it "not being dangerous" now.
Ah, a scientific approach. so if it is not used and never considered it becomes somewhat safe. and never will become "not being dangerous" as it is never again tried. where was it that the ostrich placed his head?
what would make you gain trust in it? using it w/o problems? or just summarily banning it's existence?
You cannot expect from everybody to take part in system testing, may it be for lack of knowledge, lack of time or lack of interest, or you must say that linux is only for a computer-freaky marginal group.
But I think linux is also for just "normal" users who simply decide whether they prefer windows, mac or linux and who, maybe, like the open source approach for many reasons but cannot take part in it's development. I believe these people are valuable users, too, and while their contribution is not actively testing or developing, at least they help spread the idea and increase the popularity of linux.
While I see that Carlos really knows a lot and helps a lot, others, like me, must just trust on the knowledge and responsibility of the people who make the distribution we use.
I would only change to a new file system, or system at all, if there is not much noise on mailing lists about that. About btrfs there is still a lot. I confess, that I do not understand the details, but the fact, that there is a lot of noise is enough for me to make me refuse the use of it until the occurrence of related problems calms down to a normal amount of obviously solvable things.
This would be the moment when I personally consider a file system "not being dangerous" anymore.
What's dangerous? IMNSHO sticking to certain things, knowing they'll be unsupported in the (near) future, is..... My 2 cents Noise? If the noise comes from just a dozen of people ?? -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-09-20 14:49, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
Op woensdag 20 september 2017 14:39:34 CEST schreef Daniel Bauer:
Am 20.09.2017 um 13:40 schrieb Patrick Shanahan:
* Carlos E. R. <> [09-20-17 07:33]:
I don't trust it "not being dangerous" now.
Ah, a scientific approach. so if it is not used and never considered it becomes somewhat safe. and never will become "not being dangerous" as it is never again tried. where was it that the ostrich placed his head?
what would make you gain trust in it? using it w/o problems? or just summarily banning it's existence?
You cannot expect from everybody to take part in system testing, may it be for lack of knowledge, lack of time or lack of interest, or you must say that linux is only for a computer-freaky marginal group.
But I think linux is also for just "normal" users who simply decide whether they prefer windows, mac or linux and who, maybe, like the open source approach for many reasons but cannot take part in it's development. I believe these people are valuable users, too, and while their contribution is not actively testing or developing, at least they help spread the idea and increase the popularity of linux.
While I see that Carlos really knows a lot and helps a lot, others, like me, must just trust on the knowledge and responsibility of the people who make the distribution we use.
I would only change to a new file system, or system at all, if there is not much noise on mailing lists about that. About btrfs there is still a lot. I confess, that I do not understand the details, but the fact, that there is a lot of noise is enough for me to make me refuse the use of it until the occurrence of related problems calms down to a normal amount of obviously solvable things.
This would be the moment when I personally consider a file system "not being dangerous" anymore.
What's dangerous? IMNSHO sticking to certain things, knowing they'll be unsupported in the (near) future, is..... My 2 cents Noise? If the noise comes from just a dozen of people ??
He is not using reiserfs. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
This would be the moment when I personally consider a file system "not being dangerous" anymore.
What's dangerous? IMNSHO sticking to certain things, knowing they'll be unsupported in the (near) future, is.....
"supported" in openSUSE-speak is no guarantee for anything, so whether or not reiserfs is officially "supported" doesn't make any major difference. In this case, "no longer supported" should simply mean YaST won't help you make it easy to use. Of course, you may add that it also means bugreports won't be looked at, but that goes for many bugreports anywway, supported or otherwise. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.9°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/09/17 08:39 AM, Daniel Bauer wrote:
But I think linux is also for just "normal" users who simply decide whether they prefer windows, mac or linux and who, maybe, like the open source approach for many reasons but cannot take part in it's development. I believe these people are valuable users, too, and while their contribution is not actively testing or developing, at least they help spread the idea and increase the popularity of linux.
While I see that Carlos really knows a lot and helps a lot, others, like me, must just trust on the knowledge and responsibility of the people who make the distribution we use.
I would only change to a new file system, or system at all, if there is not much noise on mailing lists about that. About btrfs there is still a lot. I confess, that I do not understand the details, but the fact, that there is a lot of noise is enough for me to make me refuse the use of it until the occurrence of related problems calms down to a normal amount of obviously solvable things.
This would be the moment when I personally consider a file system "not being dangerous" anymore.
By that criteria ReiserFS is great. It is one of the FS that is both actively used but enver, until now, disucussed file systems. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-09-20 15:28, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 20/09/17 08:39 AM, Daniel Bauer wrote:
But I think linux is also for just "normal" users who simply decide whether they prefer windows, mac or linux and who, maybe, like the open source approach for many reasons but cannot take part in it's development. I believe these people are valuable users, too, and while their contribution is not actively testing or developing, at least they help spread the idea and increase the popularity of linux.
While I see that Carlos really knows a lot and helps a lot, others, like me, must just trust on the knowledge and responsibility of the people who make the distribution we use.
I would only change to a new file system, or system at all, if there is not much noise on mailing lists about that. About btrfs there is still a lot. I confess, that I do not understand the details, but the fact, that there is a lot of noise is enough for me to make me refuse the use of it until the occurrence of related problems calms down to a normal amount of obviously solvable things.
This would be the moment when I personally consider a file system "not being dangerous" anymore.
By that criteria ReiserFS is great. It is one of the FS that is both actively used but enver, until now, disucussed file systems.
So is ext4. It is stable, no new features, which I suppose would go to ext5. Yes, I know you hate it having a fixed inode count, but that doesn't bite me on "/". -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 2017-09-20 11:12, Rodney Baker wrote:
On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 16:58:01 ACST Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com> wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Btrfs is a great choice - if you want to end up with an unbootable system after a few shapshots have used up all available disk space on the root filesystem, leaving the system unbootable and unrecoverable (and all because it doesn’t use sensible defaults and there is no warning during installation that the defaults need to be tweaked to prevent this).
Hmm - just had a thought. Maybe btrfs is actually a VLTLA for “Ban The Reiser File System”. ;)
What means VLTLA? The only page that attempts a description is this useless page: +++................... http://acronymsmeanings.com/full-meaning-of/lvalt/lvalt-stands-for-lvalt-mea... What does LVALT mean or stand for ? This page explains the astronumerology analysis of the abbreviation LVALT. Below, you also find the detailed meaning of each letter in the LVALT acronym. Astrological Analysis and meaning of LVALT LVALT has a life path of 4. LVALT means: With a Life Path 4, your numbers are (4, 13/4, 22/4, 31/4). The Life Path 4 shows that you are a natural genius for planning things. You can erect, construct and practically assemble applications to make things work with a unique cerebral excellence. They are one of the most reliable, practical and down to earth of individuals; The cornerstone members of any ...................++- -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 20:49:58 ACST Carlos E. R. wrote:
[...]
Hmm - just had a thought. Maybe btrfs is actually a VLTLA for “Ban The Reiser File System”. ;)
What means VLTLA?
A TLA is a recursive acronym for a Three-Letter Acronym. An ETLA is an Extended Three-Letter Acronym (with 4 letters) A VLTLA is a Very Long Three-Letter Acronym (with, you guessed it, 5 letters). :) -- ============================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au CCNA #CSCO12880208 ============================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-09-20 13:48, Rodney Baker wrote:
On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 20:49:58 ACST Carlos E. R. wrote:
[...]
Hmm - just had a thought. Maybe btrfs is actually a VLTLA for “Ban The Reiser File System”. ;)
What means VLTLA?
A TLA is a recursive acronym for a Three-Letter Acronym. An ETLA is an Extended Three-Letter Acronym (with 4 letters) A VLTLA is a Very Long Three-Letter Acronym (with, you guessed it, 5 letters).
:)
Oh! I actually found that, but dismissed as not relevant. I didn't understand it. Thanks. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 20/09/17 12:48, Rodney Baker wrote:
On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 20:49:58 ACST Carlos E. R. wrote:
[...]
Hmm - just had a thought. Maybe btrfs is actually a VLTLA for “Ban The Reiser File System”. ;)
What means VLTLA?
A TLA is a recursive acronym for a Three-Letter Acronym. An ETLA is an Extended Three-Letter Acronym (with 4 letters) A VLTLA is a Very Long Three-Letter Acronym (with, you guessed it, 5 letters).
Don't you mean a VLTLA is a V Letter Three Letter Acronym (with apologies to the Romans) :-) Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Saturday, 23 September 2017 5:57:03 ACST Wols Lists wrote:
On 20/09/17 12:48, Rodney Baker wrote:
On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 20:49:58 ACST Carlos E. R. wrote:
[...]
Hmm - just had a thought. Maybe btrfs is actually a VLTLA for “Ban The Reiser File System”. ;)
What means VLTLA?
A TLA is a recursive acronym for a Three-Letter Acronym. An ETLA is an Extended Three-Letter Acronym (with 4 letters) A VLTLA is a Very Long Three-Letter Acronym (with, you guessed it, 5 letters). Don't you mean a VLTLA is a V Letter Three Letter Acronym (with apologies to the Romans)
:-)
8) -- ============================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au CCNA #CSCO12880208 ============================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/09/17 05:12 AM, Rodney Baker wrote:
Btrfs is a great choice - if you want to end up with an unbootable system after a few shapshots have used up all available disk space on the root filesystem, leaving the system unbootable and unrecoverable (and all because it doesn’t use sensible defaults and there is no warning during installation that the defaults need to be tweaked to prevent this).
Yes. BtrFS is a great FS for a professional system such as a IT department, especially one that is used to mainframes where there are admins who are used to the rollback/snapshot mechanism. To them it is very important so that problematic upgrades/patches can be reversed. The desktop user outside of a well supported by IT department firm, a home user, a SMB that can't afford an IT department and possibly not a on-call Linux-geek needs something that avoids the planned approach of the FS that need pre-provisioning such as ext4, and avoids the above mentioned issues of BtrFS. The true B-tree FS like Reiser and XFS do this. Personally I think XFS is a bit heavy for the job. I've had problems with XFS but never with reiser That's why I've gone with Reiser. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-09-20 14:22, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 20/09/17 05:12 AM, Rodney Baker wrote:
Btrfs is a great choice - if you want to end up with an unbootable system after a few shapshots have used up all available disk space on the root filesystem, leaving the system unbootable and unrecoverable (and all because it doesn’t use sensible defaults and there is no warning during installation that the defaults need to be tweaked to prevent this).
Yes.
BtrFS is a great FS for a professional system such as a IT department, especially one that is used to mainframes where there are admins who are used to the rollback/snapshot mechanism. To them it is very important so that problematic upgrades/patches can be reversed.
I have seen novices revert a system patch to the previous working condition unaided. Btrfs is great for this. However, I have also seen it break, and when it does, many people need guidance, because the tools are not sufficiently automatic for repair. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 10:28:01 +0300 Andrei Borzenkov <arvidjaar@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com> wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Hmm, https://github.com/kdave/btrfs-progs/issues/40 Add reiserfs support to btrfs-convert kdave commented Sep 8, 2017 Released in v4.13. So we're asked to trust our data to a program that had its first release less than two weeks ago? I think not. This whole episode looks more and more like a bunch of btrfs fanbois deciding to force a herd of sheep into the abbatoir. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Op woensdag 20 september 2017 13:19:40 CEST schreef Dave Howorth:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 10:28:01 +0300
Andrei Borzenkov <arvidjaar@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater
<dplater.list@gmail.com> wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Hmm, https://github.com/kdave/btrfs-progs/issues/40
Add reiserfs support to btrfs-convert
kdave commented Sep 8, 2017
Released in v4.13.
So we're asked to trust our data to a program that had its first release less than two weeks ago?
I think not.
This whole episode looks more and more like a bunch of btrfs fanbois deciding to force a herd of sheep into the abbatoir.
Yup, and the bunch of "everything-everywhere-always-should-stay-the-same- people" that won't accept any change, not even if life-saving. -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 13:28:32 +0200 Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink <knurpht@opensuse.org> wrote:
Op woensdag 20 september 2017 13:19:40 CEST schreef Dave Howorth:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 10:28:01 +0300
Andrei Borzenkov <arvidjaar@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater
<dplater.list@gmail.com> wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Hmm, https://github.com/kdave/btrfs-progs/issues/40
Add reiserfs support to btrfs-convert
kdave commented Sep 8, 2017
Released in v4.13.
So we're asked to trust our data to a program that had its first release less than two weeks ago?
I think not.
This whole episode looks more and more like a bunch of btrfs fanbois deciding to force a herd of sheep into the abbatoir.
Yup, and the bunch of "everything-everywhere-always-should-stay-the-same- people" that won't accept any change, not even if life-saving.
I think the problem here is the approach that has been taken to "sell" the decision to the great unwashed (i.e. me and others). There's been no attempt to explain or persuade at all. I first heard about this upcoming change at the beginning of the Killing ReiserFS thread. Maybe I should have known earlier but as far as possible I just use openSUSE and following this list is as far as I go in keeping in touch. So learning about it in that way is not ideal. It would be better if I'd learned about it in a way that explained what was going to happen and why. Instead we've had lots of down-the-pub-argy-bargy with a very low signal to noise ratio. I now understand why the change is being made but I still don't understand exactly what is going to happen, despite asking. So if you want me to stop standing in the way and instead want to encourage me to move forward in the way that will be best for me and for everybody else, could you please explain (perhaps by pointing to a hopefully pre-existing explanatory web page): (1) Is YaST going to suggest that you migrate a reiserfs filesystem to something else or is it going to refuse to continue the upgrade until you have done so? (for data, not root) (2) Is that all filesystems on all disks, or just those in the fstab? (3) Is the kernel still going to support reiserfs? (4) What mechanisms are available for conversion, and are there any that do not require me to buy extra hardware? (i.e. use extra space) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dave Howorth wrote:
I think the problem here is the approach that has been taken to "sell" the decision to the great unwashed (i.e. me and others). There's been no attempt to explain or persuade at all.
Not to mention informing us first.
I now understand why the change is being made but I still don't understand exactly what is going to happen, despite asking.
I can only presume that the people who know aren't listening in. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.1°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
20.09.2017 19:46, Per Jessen пишет:
Dave Howorth wrote:
I think the problem here is the approach that has been taken to "sell" the decision to the great unwashed (i.e. me and others). There's been no attempt to explain or persuade at all.
Not to mention informing us first.
a) You have been informed (with this blog entry). Did you expect personal mail? b) What's the point? None of those participating in this thread is going to take up maintenance of reiserfs, so what exactly would be different?
I now understand why the change is being made but I still don't understand exactly what is going to happen, despite asking.
I can only presume that the people who know aren't listening in.
What exactly is not clear in the blog entry? I wonder if anyone participating on this thread read blog entry beyond the first sentence if at all. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
20.09.2017 19:46, Per Jessen пишет:
Dave Howorth wrote:
I think the problem here is the approach that has been taken to "sell" the decision to the great unwashed (i.e. me and others). There's been no attempt to explain or persuade at all.
Not to mention informing us first.
a) You have been informed (with this blog entry). Did you expect personal mail?
Honestly Andrei - if we all had to read arbitrary blog entries to be informed, we could never do anything else. Writing blogs is like putting up posters on lamp-posts in Langbortistan and hoping somebody reads it.
b) What's the point? None of those participating in this thread is going to take up maintenance of reiserfs, so what exactly would be different?
Informing people is always better than keeping them in dark. IMHO. Besides, if people had been properly informed, perhaps we wouldn't have had this long thread. There is clearly confusion.
I now understand why the change is being made but I still don't understand exactly what is going to happen, despite asking.
I can only presume that the people who know aren't listening in.
What exactly is not clear in the blog entry? I wonder if anyone participating on this thread read blog entry beyond the first sentence if at all.
I did. What is not clear is the situation for people with reiserfs file systems once we get to openSUSE 15. YaST will not support reiserfs, that much _is_ clear, but that leaves much doubt about those users' situation. Can they upgrade and stay on reiserfs, on root or elsewhere, is there some sort of forced migration or not. Will reiserfs continue to be available (without YaST) as well as the associated tools. That kind of thing. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.8°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
20.09.2017 21:15, Per Jessen пишет:
I now understand why the change is being made but I still don't understand exactly what is going to happen, despite asking.
I can only presume that the people who know aren't listening in.
What exactly is not clear in the blog entry? I wonder if anyone participating on this thread read blog entry beyond the first sentence if at all.
I did. What is not clear is the situation for people with reiserfs file systems once we get to openSUSE 15. YaST will not support reiserfs, that much _is_ clear, but that leaves much doubt about those users' situation. Can they upgrade and stay on reiserfs, on root or
They cannot upgrade using YaST installer (what is known as off-line update). This is clear enough. Nothing can prevent you from updating online and there is no explicit dependency on fstype in dracut that I am aware of. YaST support for grub legacy had been removed ages ago and there are still people using it as bootloader and it works.
elsewhere, is there some sort of forced migration or not. Will reiserfs continue to be available (without YaST) as well as the associated tools.
Given that for non-root it is just a warning, it is sufficiently clear that both reiserfs and tools remain available. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/09/17 03:06 PM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
Given that for non-root it is just a warning, it is sufficiently clear that both reiserfs and tools remain available.
You are assuring us that whichever way we choose to update. online or offline, then /lib/modules/$(uname -r)/kernel/fs/reiserfs/reiserfs.ko will still be present and mkfs.resiser will still be present? Your authority for this? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/09/17 02:15 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
a) You have been informed (with this blog entry). Did you expect personal mail? Honestly Andrei - if we all had to read arbitrary blog entries to be informed, we could never do anything else. Writing blogs is like putting up posters on lamp-posts in Langbortistan and hoping somebody reads it.
I betcha that somewhere in the great moral that is Twitter-land, there is mention of it too. But really: "Get a Life!" -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/09/17 01:18 PM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
b) What's the point? None of those participating in this thread is going to take up maintenance of reiserfs, so what exactly would be different?
That's a low blow by any scale. Belittling me because I am not C programmer, not someone who can understand the complexities of file system design. not a genius of the class of Mr Reiser himself is unworthy.
I now understand why the change is being made but I still don't understand exactly what is going to happen, despite asking.
I can only presume that the people who know aren't listening in.
What exactly is not clear in the blog entry? I wonder if anyone participating on this thread read blog entry beyond the first sentence if at all.
There's a lot that's not clear. Carlos is of the opinion that the ability to create or manipulate ReiserFS has been removed from YaST and that's all, that the /lib/modules/$(uname -r)/kernel/fs/reiserfs/reiserfs.ko will still be present. I take it to mean, and what Mr Brown says reinforces my belief, is that such kernel modules, as well a the MKFS and other supporting code and script will be removed. And yes I read the whole blog entry. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/09/17 12:46 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
I think the problem here is the approach that has been taken to "sell" the decision to the great unwashed (i.e. me and others). There's been no attempt to explain or persuade at all.
Not to mention informing us first.
I'm reminded of the opening scene of Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galexy, the bit about "beware of the jaguar" method of notification of drastic modification and demolition plans.
I now understand why the change is being made but I still don't understand exactly what is going to happen, despite asking.
I can only presume that the people who know aren't listening in.
Other than the Lemming Effect that Mr Brown points out, I can't see a lot of difference between this and the need to demolish earth to install an Intergalactic Bypass in an age where no-one uses intergalactic bypasses any more. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20 September 2017 at 18:39, Dave Howorth <dave@howorth.org.uk> wrote:
I think the problem here is the approach that has been taken to "sell" the decision to the great unwashed (i.e. me and others).
There's been no attempt to explain or persuade at all.
Besides every single post I've made on these threads..
I first heard about this upcoming change at the beginning of the Killing ReiserFS thread. Maybe I should have known earlier but as far as possible I just use openSUSE and following this list is as far as I go in keeping in touch.
If you are interested in openSUSE, you should really read our actual news sources then, such as: https://plus.google.com/+openSUSE/posts/HQL7L3VMzCV https://twitter.com/openSUSE/status/907498199644073984 https://www.facebook.com/en.opensuse/posts/10155276371912284 or https://lizards.opensuse.org/2017/09/07/highlights-of-yast-development-sprin... This is 100% NOT the right place to learn ANYTHING about openSUSE News Ever opensuse@opensuse.org is our support mailinglist. The only thing readers can regularly expect to learn here is about broken stuff and user mistakes. That is the purpose of this list. The openSUSE Project actively discourages the misuse of our mailinglists for other purposes, so we will never abuse this list by posting our news announcements here.
I now understand why the change is being made but I still don't understand exactly what is going to happen, despite asking.
Then ask in the right place - This is a support mailinglist. If you're interested in a development in YaST, then speak to our YaST team https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:YaST_team Please, as a general reminder to everyone on this list, stop treating open source software generally and openSUSE specifically like some product you've purchased. You haven't. Start treating it like a team you belong to - which in this case means, do the effort required to read the contributors have been dutifully publishing, and make use of their availability to contact them. Don't expect them to be lurking here and replying to you. They shouldn't be, this is a user support list, which therefore contains posts that are 99% irrelevant for them 99% of the time. And that's how it should be. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Op woensdag 20 september 2017 19:18:58 CEST schreef Richard Brown:
Start treating it like a team you belong to
Hear, hear. I for one am sick and tired of the "them versus us" mentality that's been expressed over and over again on this list. It's so bloody easy to blame individuals, board members, devs, packagers whilst spending all your (spare) time to write elaborate mails, have extensive discussions etc where others do the real work. Without getting any appreciation. Every once in a while I could understand people giving up contributing after reading this ML. So, please, lets get this ML back to what it's meant for: support. -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Am 20.09.2017 um 20:42 schrieb Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink:
So, please, lets get this ML back to what it's meant for: support.
+1 -- Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Barcelona https://www.patreon.com/danielbauer http://www.daniel-bauer.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dne středa 20. září 2017 21:26:34 CEST, Daniel Bauer napsal(a):
Am 20.09.2017 um 20:42 schrieb Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink:
So, please, lets get this ML back to what it's meant for: support.
+1
I try to understand, why is here such... ehm... long... and... "valuable"... discussion about FS, which has been effectively death for years for reasons out of scope of openSUSE... Does it make *any* sense? I don't think so... -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/
Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
Dne středa 20. září 2017 21:26:34 CEST, Daniel Bauer napsal(a):
Am 20.09.2017 um 20:42 schrieb Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink:
So, please, lets get this ML back to what it's meant for: support.
+1
I try to understand, why is here such... ehm... long... and... "valuable"... discussion about FS, which has been effectively death for years for reasons out of scope of openSUSE... Does it make *any* sense? I don't think so...
One can only conclude that said filesystem is effectively not dead and out of scope of openSUSE. Obviously there are users in our community that still use it, without much desire to give it up. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.6°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-09-21 10:08, Per Jessen wrote:
Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
Dne středa 20. září 2017 21:26:34 CEST, Daniel Bauer napsal(a):
Am 20.09.2017 um 20:42 schrieb Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink:
So, please, lets get this ML back to what it's meant for: support.
+1
I try to understand, why is here such... ehm... long... and... "valuable"... discussion about FS, which has been effectively death for years for reasons out of scope of openSUSE... Does it make *any* sense? I don't think so...
One can only conclude that said filesystem is effectively not dead and out of scope of openSUSE. Obviously there are users in our community that still use it, without much desire to give it up.
Indeed. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 19:18:58 +0200 Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote:
On 20 September 2017 at 18:39, Dave Howorth <dave@howorth.org.uk> wrote:
I think the problem here is the approach that has been taken to "sell" the decision to the great unwashed (i.e. me and others).
There's been no attempt to explain or persuade at all.
Besides every single post I've made on these threads..
With respect, I've just reread every post you've made on this topic and I wouldn't characterise any of them as attempting to persuade people at all. You have done some explanation, you've made some outright attacks.
I first heard about this upcoming change at the beginning of the Killing ReiserFS thread. Maybe I should have known earlier but as far as possible I just use openSUSE and following this list is as far as I go in keeping in touch.
If you are interested in openSUSE, you should really read our actual news sources then, such as:
https://plus.google.com/+openSUSE/posts/HQL7L3VMzCV
https://twitter.com/openSUSE/status/907498199644073984
https://www.facebook.com/en.opensuse/posts/10155276371912284
I'm sorry, I don't do social media. I see that the lizards site does have an RSS feed so I've added it to my reader to see whether there's enough content there I want to read.
https://lizards.opensuse.org/2017/09/07/highlights-of-yast-development-sprin...
That's a post about YaST, which is part of the situation with respect to ReiserFS but not the whole story, and it's clear that post isn't unambiguous enough for everybody to have understood the same thing from it.
This is 100% NOT the right place to learn ANYTHING about openSUSE News
Ever
opensuse@opensuse.org is our support mailinglist.
And as such I consider it entirely reasonable to ask questions about what I'm going to have to do to upgrade my system. In fact your reply was to an email in which I asked some questions, which you chose to ignore and even delete from your reply! I'll repeat them: (1) Is YaST going to suggest that you migrate a reiserfs filesystem to something else or is it going to refuse to continue the upgrade until you have done so? (for data, not root) (2) Is that all filesystems on all disks, or just those in the fstab? (3) Is the kernel still going to support reiserfs? (4) What mechanisms are available for conversion, and are there any that do not require me to buy extra hardware? (i.e. use extra space) Now I may think I know the answer to some of those questions, but it doesn't pay either me or you to assume I do, and it's absolutely clear that not everbody in this conversation has the same answers in mind, so I'd really appreciate explicit answers. And as I already said, one answer, possibly the best, would be a link to a place that already explains the answers to those questions.
The only thing readers can regularly expect to learn here is about broken stuff and user mistakes.
That is the purpose of this list.
And helping people avoid future mistakes should be part of that. Criticising people for decisions they've already made is not usually the best way to support them.
The openSUSE Project actively discourages the misuse of our mailinglists for other purposes, so we will never abuse this list by posting our news announcements here.
I now understand why the change is being made but I still don't understand exactly what is going to happen, despite asking.
Then ask in the right place - This is a support mailinglist. If you're interested in a development in YaST, then speak to our YaST team https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:YaST_team
As I explained above and in detail in my list of questions, my interest is not YaST specifically, it's the overall support and capabilities that will be in openSUSE 15.
Please, as a general reminder to everyone on this list, stop treating open source software generally and openSUSE specifically like some product you've purchased. You haven't. Start treating it like a team you belong to - which in this case means, do the effort required to read the contributors have been dutifully publishing, and make use of their availability to contact them.
Don't expect them to be lurking here and replying to you. They shouldn't be, this is a user support list, which therefore contains posts that are 99% irrelevant for them 99% of the time. And that's how it should be.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote:
If you are interested in openSUSE, you should really read our actual news sources then, such as:
https://plus.google.com/+openSUSE/posts/HQL7L3VMzCV https://twitter.com/openSUSE/status/907498199644073984 https://www.facebook.com/en.opensuse/posts/10155276371912284
This was a surprize to me. Shouldn't the prime source of actual opensuse news be the opensuse site rather than sites which I for one never visit? Roger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dne čtvrtek 21. září 2017 9:42:15 CEST, Roger Price napsal(a):
Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote:
If you are interested in openSUSE, you should really read our actual news sources then, such as:
https://plus.google.com/+openSUSE/posts/HQL7L3VMzCV https://twitter.com/openSUSE/status/907498199644073984 https://www.facebook.com/en.opensuse/posts/10155276371912284
This was a surprize to me. Shouldn't the prime source of actual opensuse news be the opensuse site rather than sites which I for one never visit?
https://news.opensuse.org/ ? https://planet.opensuse.org/ ? -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/
Op donderdag 21 september 2017 09:42:15 CEST schreef Roger Price:
Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote:
If you are interested in openSUSE, you should really read our actual news sources then, such as:
https://plus.google.com/+openSUSE/posts/HQL7L3VMzCV https://twitter.com/openSUSE/status/907498199644073984 https://www.facebook.com/en.opensuse/posts/10155276371912284
This was a surprize to me. Shouldn't the prime source of actual opensuse news be the opensuse site rather than sites which I for one never visit?
Roger
This was just an example. The original message is on lizards.opensuse.org, like all the previous ones from the YaST team -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/21/2017 12:58 AM, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
This was just an example. The original message is on lizards.opensuse.org, like all the previous ones from the YaST team
Oh. Okay. Guess I missed that or was busy reading what else was there. -- -Gerry Makaro aka Fraser_Bell on the forums, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 21/09/17 08:42, Roger Price wrote:
Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote:
If you are interested in openSUSE, you should really read our actual news sources then, such as:
https://plus.google.com/+openSUSE/posts/HQL7L3VMzCV https://twitter.com/openSUSE/status/907498199644073984 https://www.facebook.com/en.opensuse/posts/10155276371912284
This was a surprize to me. Shouldn't the prime source of actual opensuse news be the opensuse site rather than sites which I for one never visit?
Not wanting to join in with a fair bit of flamefesting, but I would have to agree with this. Indeed, I rarely visit the opensuse site because it never seems to have any information I want. It seems that the most visible, most useful domain has been taken over by the "let's get suse installed on as many computers as possible, then abandon them in the wilderness" crowd. I'm on google+, I refuse to use either twitter or facebook. But if that's where I'm supposed to find official news, how the ****** am I supposed to know, unless somebody tells me! And the obvious place to look, www.opensuse.org, seems to have been taken over by marketdroids who have no clue how to communicate any *meaningful* information. www.opensuse.org should be a thriving hub of useful information (even if it is only links pointing elsewhere), and not the non-interactive marketing billboard it looks like it is to me. Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017, Wols Lists wrote:
And the obvious place to look, www.opensuse.org, seems to have been taken over by marketdroids who have no clue how to communicate any *meaningful* information.
+1 for that
www.opensuse.org should be a thriving hub of useful information (even if it is only links pointing elsewhere), and not the non-interactive marketing billboard it looks like it is to me.
+1 for that as well The signal to noise ratio of www.opensuse.org is about as low as it gets, especially compared with sites such as https://distrowatch.com/ Roger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 21/09/17 12:06 PM, Wols Lists wrote:
www.opensuse.org should be a thriving hub of useful information (even if it is only links pointing elsewhere), and not the non-interactive marketing billboard it looks like it is to me.
+1 -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 21/09/17 19:06, Wols Lists wrote:
www.opensuse.org should be a thriving hub of useful information (even if it is only links pointing elsewhere), and not the non-interactive marketing billboard it looks like it is to me.
Cheers, Wol
+1 regards ... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 21/09/17 19:06, Wols Lists wrote:
www.opensuse.org should be a thriving hub of useful information (even if it is only links pointing elsewhere), and not the non-interactive marketing billboard it looks like it is to me.
Cheers, Wol
+1
regards
... OK, I guess that's volunteers to keep news.opensuse.org into a better state
Op donderdag 21 september 2017 19:39:27 CEST schreef ellanios82: than agreed upon ??? No programming involved, no knowledge of C. What's keeping people from stepping away from critisizing the community members that work their Q@##ses off and instead come up with questions in the "Hey, can I help to improve this or that," . Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
OK, I guess that's volunteers to keep news.opensuse.org into a better state than agreed upon ??? No programming involved, no knowledge of C.
Please, we are talking about www.opensuse.org, not news.opensuse.org. Roger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 21/09/17 18:49, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
What's keeping people from stepping away from critisizing the community members that work their Q@##ses off and instead come up with questions in the "Hey, can I help to improve this or that," .
Since it was me that made that criticism, dare I suggest you take a quick gander at https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Linux_Raid Especially the "help wanted" section? Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/21/2017 02:26 PM, Wols Lists wrote:
On 21/09/17 18:49, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
What's keeping people from stepping away from critisizing the community members that work their Q@##ses off and instead come up with questions in the "Hey, can I help to improve this or that," .
Since it was me that made that criticism, dare I suggest you take a quick gander at https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Linux_Raid
Especially the "help wanted" section?
Cheers, Wol
Okay, I looked. But, how is that germane? It is not an openSUSE site. It seems to be having the same problems as the openSUSE sites (thus verifying what I said earlier). Nobody here was complaining about that project or site. ... and, no, I do not bother with RAID, so I will not volunteer. Instead, I will do my volunteering where I can contribute with some benefit and where I am interested and have some knowledge. That, of course, will be with openSUSE, where and when I can. And, because I am not offering to volunteer there, I will not complain to you or anyone else about what goes on at that site or with that project. Deal? -- -Gerry Makaro aka Fraser_Bell on the forums, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 22/09/17 01:22, Fraser_Bell wrote:
On 09/21/2017 02:26 PM, Wols Lists wrote:
On 21/09/17 18:49, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
What's keeping people from stepping away from critisizing the community members that work their Q@##ses off and instead come up with questions in the "Hey, can I help to improve this or that," .
Since it was me that made that criticism, dare I suggest you take a quick gander at https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Linux_Raid
Especially the "help wanted" section?
Cheers, Wol
Okay, I looked.
But, how is that germane?
Look at the names in that section. Look at my name.
It is not an openSUSE site.
It seems to be having the same problems as the openSUSE sites (thus verifying what I said earlier).
It's all very well saying people should pitch in and help. Sod's law that Knurft picked on someone who's already pitched in somewhere else... Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/21/2017 10:49 AM, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
On 21/09/17 19:06, Wols Lists wrote:
www.opensuse.org should be a thriving hub of useful information (even if it is only links pointing elsewhere), and not the non-interactive marketing billboard it looks like it is to me.
Cheers, Wol
+1
regards
... OK, I guess that's volunteers to keep news.opensuse.org into a better state
Op donderdag 21 september 2017 19:39:27 CEST schreef ellanios82: than agreed upon ??? No programming involved, no knowledge of C.
What's keeping people from stepping away from critisizing the community members that work their Q@##ses off and instead come up with questions in the "Hey, can I help to improve this or that," .
Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht
openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team
... you have possibly noticed by now just how much I agree with you. ;-) -- -Gerry Makaro aka Fraser_Bell on the forums, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/21/2017 09:06 AM, Wols Lists wrote:
On 21/09/17 08:42, Roger Price wrote:
Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote:
If you are interested in openSUSE, you should really read our actual news sources then, such as:
https://plus.google.com/+openSUSE/posts/HQL7L3VMzCV https://twitter.com/openSUSE/status/907498199644073984 https://www.facebook.com/en.opensuse/posts/10155276371912284
This was a surprize to me. Shouldn't the prime source of actual opensuse news be the opensuse site rather than sites which I for one never visit?
Not wanting to join in with a fair bit of flamefesting, but I would have to agree with this.
Indeed, I rarely visit the opensuse site because it never seems to have any information I want. It seems that the most visible, most useful domain has been taken over by the "let's get suse installed on as many computers as possible, then abandon them in the wilderness" crowd.
I'm on google+, I refuse to use either twitter or facebook. But if that's where I'm supposed to find official news, how the ****** am I supposed to know, unless somebody tells me!
And the obvious place to look, www.opensuse.org, seems to have been taken over by marketdroids who have no clue how to communicate any *meaningful* information.
www.opensuse.org should be a thriving hub of useful information (even if it is only links pointing elsewhere), and not the non-interactive marketing billboard it looks like it is to me.
Cheers, Wol
Well, although I *do* agree -- in a way -- with the comments, I am *not* prepared to be vocal about it, nor to complain, since I am busy with other things and am not at this moment offering to volunteer to do the work that the *VOLUNTEERS* are currently doing there. Of course, since you are voicing this complaint, I would expect that you are about to Volunteer and do something to improve it? NOTE: This also goes out to Roger, Anton, and ellanios82, and any others who *+1* the sentiment. I expect to see some very interesting articles from you people on the site in the very near future. -- -Gerry Makaro aka Fraser_Bell on the forums, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-09-22 02:05, Fraser_Bell wrote:
On 09/21/2017 09:06 AM, Wols Lists wrote:
On 21/09/17 08:42, Roger Price wrote:
Richard Brown <> wrote:
If you are interested in openSUSE, you should really read our actual news sources then, such as:
https://plus.google.com/+openSUSE/posts/HQL7L3VMzCV https://twitter.com/openSUSE/status/907498199644073984 https://www.facebook.com/en.opensuse/posts/10155276371912284
This was a surprize to me. Shouldn't the prime source of actual opensuse news be the opensuse site rather than sites which I for one never visit?
Not wanting to join in with a fair bit of flamefesting, but I would have to agree with this.
Indeed, I rarely visit the opensuse site because it never seems to have any information I want. It seems that the most visible, most useful domain has been taken over by the "let's get suse installed on as many computers as possible, then abandon them in the wilderness" crowd.
I'm on google+, I refuse to use either twitter or facebook. But if that's where I'm supposed to find official news, how the ****** am I supposed to know, unless somebody tells me!
And the obvious place to look, www.opensuse.org, seems to have been taken over by marketdroids who have no clue how to communicate any *meaningful* information.
www.opensuse.org should be a thriving hub of useful information (even if it is only links pointing elsewhere), and not the non-interactive marketing billboard it looks like it is to me.
Cheers, Wol
Well, although I *do* agree -- in a way -- with the comments, I am *not* prepared to be vocal about it, nor to complain, since I am busy with other things and am not at this moment offering to volunteer to do the work that the *VOLUNTEERS* are currently doing there.
Of course, since you are voicing this complaint, I would expect that you are about to Volunteer and do something to improve it?
Notice that this was about the main www.opensuse.org page, not the news page. I will not offer to contribute to a main web page, I'm not a web designer and I would do it very badly. I think I liked more the previous version of the page, that's all I can say, from the point of view of being useful to me. The current one is certainly more glamorous, but difficult to modify. There are some missing pieces of information but few people capable of doing it, I fear. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 09/21/2017 06:43 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Notice that this was about the mainwww.opensuse.org page, not the news page. I will not offer to contribute to a main web page, I'm not a web designer and I would do it very badly.
I think I liked more the previous version of the page, that's all I can say, from the point of view of being useful to me. The current one is certainly more glamorous, but difficult to modify. There are some missing pieces of information but few people capable of doing it, I fear.
Actually, Carlos, I was not singling you out. In fact, you were the only one who actually offered a constructive suggestion, AFAIR. ... and, yes, about that page, I agree. I am refraining from doing much commenting on it, though, because I do not want to step on the web designer's toes. Besides, Roger just said a lot of what I would have said. ;-) -- -Gerry Makaro aka Fraser_Bell on the forums, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 6:06 PM, Wols Lists <antlists@youngman.org.uk> wrote:
www.opensuse.org should be a thriving hub of useful information (even if it is only links pointing elsewhere), and not the non-interactive marketing billboard it looks like it is to me.
Wish I was not a +1 here. But, alas, I am. www.opensuse.org is rather uninformative. It was reworked a bit back, so the interface is a bit more modern. But the content really gives the wrong impression. Or, actually, no impression at all... All is says is Tumbleweed and Leap. What are those? Not a mention that it is a Linux distribution. And why it is such a great one. I think the current www.opensuse.org is what one should get to when clicking that you would like to try that great thing that has been presented. I am not an artistic guy (said with a bit of real sadness). But I think there must be some in the community that are artistic and who could contribute to a nicer presentation. And www.opensuse.org should have a bit of eye candy. But in a good way. Whatever that is. I think the connections to all the other sites related to openSUSE should be more prominent at the start. It should show that openSUSE is active and there is lots to get involved with. There is a point at which it can become too much. But I think the current level of information has gone too far the other way: Leap and Tumbleweed. No explanation of what that's about. Obviously if you already know about openSUSE and are just wanting access to the distribution, it's fine. But it hardly sells openSUSE. Maybe in a section above the Leap/Tumbleweed choices section that one sees immediately, in a way similar to the openSUSE Tools section below, there should be a section that tells about what openSUSE is and why it is good. That is what one sees immediately. The current site continues below that. More people need to know how great openSUSE is! -- Roger Oberholtzer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 22/09/17 10:36, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
think there must be some in the community that are artistic and who could contribute to a nicer presentation. Andwww.opensuse.org should have a bit of eye candy. But in a good way. Whatever that is.
- already : from default desktop openSuSE 13.1 : terrific : great art http://susepaste.org/65635879 ...... regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/22/2017 03:01 AM, ellanios82 wrote:
On 22/09/17 10:36, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
think there must be some in the community that are artistic and who could contribute to a nicer presentation. Andwww.opensuse.org should have a bit of eye candy. But in a good way. Whatever that is.
- already : from default desktop openSuSE 13.1 :
terrific : great art
......
regards
Yes, nice. And, IMHO, the default desktop in 42.x is nice, too. ... although, I am not certain of the symbolism of the light bulb, unless it is to signify that it is somebody's "bright idea". :-D -- -Gerry Makaro aka Fraser_Bell on the forums, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/21/2017 12:42 AM, Roger Price wrote:
Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote:
If you are interested in openSUSE, you should really read our actual news sources then, such as:
https://plus.google.com/+openSUSE/posts/HQL7L3VMzCV https://twitter.com/openSUSE/status/907498199644073984 https://www.facebook.com/en.opensuse/posts/10155276371912284
This was a surprize to me. Shouldn't the prime source of actual opensuse news be the opensuse site rather than sites which I for one never visit?
Roger
Well, *I* certainly agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment! I am not a twit, so I leave twitter to those who are. Facebook? Gimme a break! Garbage. As for Google, I have as little interaction with them as I can possibly get away with. One of my many top reasons for using Linux/openSUSE is because it is easier to limit the connections with these three abominations than it is in Windows. -- -Gerry Makaro aka Fraser_Bell on the forums, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/09/17 05:23 PM, Dave Howorth wrote:
The only thing readers can regularly expect to learn here is about broken stuff and user mistakes.
That is the purpose of this list.
And helping people avoid future mistakes should be part of that. Criticising people for decisions they've already made is not usually the best way to support them.
Indeed. The logical interpretation of what Richard is saying is that I should never have started this thread at all, that after I *DID* read the announcement in the blog, just as he recommended, that I should have given it further though and simply accepted the Wisdom of My Betters like the Good Coolie That I Am, and waited until the change came about and systems broke and we started then, quite validly as he points out, to discuss same herein. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 22:23:39 +0100 I wrote:
And as such I consider it entirely reasonable to ask questions about what I'm going to have to do to upgrade my system. In fact your reply was to an email in which I asked some questions, which you chose to ignore and even delete from your reply! I'll repeat them:
I wrote and asked Jiri Srain, the project manager responsible for YaST, these questions and he replied quickly and informatively. I asked him for permission to post his answers here and he has just done so, along with some further information about question 3:
(1) Is YaST going to suggest that I migrate a reiserfs filesystem to something else or is it going to refuse to continue the upgrade until I have done so? (for data, not root)
The filesystem migration is something that can turn to be really fragile and lead to data loss to be done automatically as part of the update process. The user will be asked to migrate the filesystem manually and then start the upgrade.
(2) Is that all filesystems on all disks, or just those in the fstab?
The updater will only care about the filesystems which are mentioned in fstab. Therefore removing the fstab entry for data partition will allow you to upgrade.
(3) Is the kernel still going to support reiserfs?
This is question for kernel folks; we were discussing whether we can remove the driver from kernel completely or need to keep at least read-only support (in order to be able to detect the system which would be upgradeable if it was on a different filesystem). It may happen that the driver is in the installer/updater only.
(4) What mechanisms are available for conversion, and are there any that do not require me to buy extra hardware? (i.e. use extra space)
Either you do back-ups anyway or the data can be easily destroyed, or? More seriously, I would not do any conversion, at least not without having a solid back-up. Any interruption in the middle will mean destroying your partition. Re-populating the partition from back-up is IMO the safest solution. The additional information about the kernel is: I asked:
Who is the best person to ask my kernel question, or is the discussion archived online somewhere? I'd like to understand the reasoning.
Jiri replied: I checked the current status. At the moment we do not build the reiserfs module at all. Cheers, Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Dave Howorth wrote:
I asked:
Who is the best person to ask my kernel question, or is the discussion archived online somewhere? I'd like to understand the reasoning.
Jiri replied: I checked the current status. At the moment we do not build the reiserfs module at all.
From Leap423:
test99:~ # modinfo reiserfs filename: /lib/modules/4.4.71-1-default/kernel/fs/reiserfs/reiserfs.ko license: GPL author: Hans Reiser <reiser@namesys.com> description: ReiserFS journaled filesystem alias: fs-reiserfs srcversion: 23CF1D4EFC3665DC9373C96 depends: intree: Y vermagic: 4.4.71-1-default SMP mod_unload modversions signer: openSUSE Secure Boot Signkey sig_key: 03:32:FA:9C:BF:0D:88:BF:21:92:4B:0D:E8:2A:09:A5:4D:5D:EF:C8 sig_hashalgo: sha256 -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.8°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
06.10.2017 19:49, Per Jessen пишет:
Dave Howorth wrote:
I asked:
Who is the best person to ask my kernel question, or is the discussion archived online somewhere? I'd like to understand the reasoning.
Jiri replied: I checked the current status. At the moment we do not build the reiserfs module at all.
From Leap423:
test99:~ # modinfo reiserfs filename: /lib/modules/4.4.71-1-default/kernel/fs/reiserfs/reiserfs.ko
Same for Tumbleweed. As far as I can tell, it is still built on SLE15 as well. I /think/ that it was meant that module was marked as not-supported on SLE15 Wed Aug 16 20:26:45 CEST 2017 - jeffm@suse.com - supported.conf: mark reiserfs unsupported (FATE#323394). ReiserFS is not supported in SLE15. ReiserFS file systems must be transferred or converted before installing. - commit 5f3f041 and such modules "are included in an extra RPM package (kernel-FLAVOR-extra) and will not be loaded by default (FLAVOR=default|xen|...) ... and the kernel-FLAVOR-extra package is not part of the SUSE Linux Enterprise media" (from current SLE documentation). This makes it effectively not available by default on SLE. I do not think this policy also applies to openSUSE. For a start, there is no kernel-default-extra package at all. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
06.10.2017 19:49, Per Jessen пишет:
Dave Howorth wrote:
I asked:
Who is the best person to ask my kernel question, or is the discussion archived online somewhere? I'd like to understand the reasoning.
Jiri replied: I checked the current status. At the moment we do not build the reiserfs module at all.
From Leap423:
test99:~ # modinfo reiserfs filename: /lib/modules/4.4.71-1-default/kernel/fs/reiserfs/reiserfs.ko
Same for Tumbleweed. As far as I can tell, it is still built on SLE15 as well. I /think/ that it was meant that module was marked as not-supported on SLE15
Wed Aug 16 20:26:45 CEST 2017 - jeffm@suse.com
- supported.conf: mark reiserfs unsupported (FATE#323394). ReiserFS is not supported in SLE15. ReiserFS file systems must be transferred or converted before installing. - commit 5f3f041
and such modules "are included in an extra RPM package (kernel-FLAVOR-extra) and will not be loaded by default (FLAVOR=default|xen|...) ... and the kernel-FLAVOR-extra package is not part of the SUSE Linux Enterprise media" (from current SLE documentation). This makes it effectively not available by default on SLE. I do not think this policy also applies to openSUSE. For a start, there is no kernel-default-extra package at all.
FWIW, I think we should just leave reiserfs available for anyone who wants to use it. I can certainly accept it's not available/supported in YaST, but otherwise people should be free to use if they so chose. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.4°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
06.10.2017 22:58, Per Jessen пишет:
Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
06.10.2017 19:49, Per Jessen пишет:
Dave Howorth wrote:
I asked:
Who is the best person to ask my kernel question, or is the discussion archived online somewhere? I'd like to understand the reasoning.
Jiri replied: I checked the current status. At the moment we do not build the reiserfs module at all.
From Leap423:
test99:~ # modinfo reiserfs filename: /lib/modules/4.4.71-1-default/kernel/fs/reiserfs/reiserfs.ko
Same for Tumbleweed. As far as I can tell, it is still built on SLE15 as well. I /think/ that it was meant that module was marked as not-supported on SLE15
Wed Aug 16 20:26:45 CEST 2017 - jeffm@suse.com
- supported.conf: mark reiserfs unsupported (FATE#323394). ReiserFS is not supported in SLE15. ReiserFS file systems must be transferred or converted before installing. - commit 5f3f041
and such modules "are included in an extra RPM package (kernel-FLAVOR-extra) and will not be loaded by default (FLAVOR=default|xen|...) ... and the kernel-FLAVOR-extra package is not part of the SUSE Linux Enterprise media" (from current SLE documentation). This makes it effectively not available by default on SLE. I do not think this policy also applies to openSUSE. For a start, there is no kernel-default-extra package at all.
FWIW, I think we should just leave reiserfs available for anyone who wants to use it. I can certainly accept it's not available/supported in YaST, but otherwise people should be free to use if they so chose.
This list is the wrong place to discuss SLE changes ... and even there people will be free to use it if they so chose, just need to install additional package and adjust modprobe configuration if my interpretation is correct. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-10-06 22:11, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
06.10.2017 22:58, Per Jessen пишет:
Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
06.10.2017 19:49, Per Jessen пишет:
Dave Howorth wrote:
I asked:
Who is the best person to ask my kernel question, or is the discussion archived online somewhere? I'd like to understand the reasoning.
Jiri replied: I checked the current status. At the moment we do not build the reiserfs module at all.
From Leap423:
test99:~ # modinfo reiserfs filename: /lib/modules/4.4.71-1-default/kernel/fs/reiserfs/reiserfs.ko
Same for Tumbleweed. As far as I can tell, it is still built on SLE15 as well. I /think/ that it was meant that module was marked as not-supported on SLE15
Wed Aug 16 20:26:45 CEST 2017 - jeffm@suse.com
- supported.conf: mark reiserfs unsupported (FATE#323394). ReiserFS is not supported in SLE15. ReiserFS file systems must be transferred or converted before installing. - commit 5f3f041
and such modules "are included in an extra RPM package (kernel-FLAVOR-extra) and will not be loaded by default (FLAVOR=default|xen|...) ... and the kernel-FLAVOR-extra package is not part of the SUSE Linux Enterprise media" (from current SLE documentation). This makes it effectively not available by default on SLE. I do not think this policy also applies to openSUSE. For a start, there is no kernel-default-extra package at all.
FWIW, I think we should just leave reiserfs available for anyone who wants to use it. I can certainly accept it's not available/supported in YaST, but otherwise people should be free to use if they so chose.
This list is the wrong place to discuss SLE changes ... and even there people will be free to use it if they so chose, just need to install additional package and adjust modprobe configuration if my interpretation is correct.
But we are not talking about SLE. Or are we? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 06/10/17 12:49 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Dave Howorth wrote:
I asked:
Who is the best person to ask my kernel question, or is the discussion archived online somewhere? I'd like to understand the reasoning.
Jiri replied: I checked the current status. At the moment we do not build the reiserfs module at all.
From Leap423:
test99:~ # modinfo reiserfs filename: /lib/modules/4.4.71-1-default/kernel/fs/reiserfs/reiserfs.ko license: GPL author: Hans Reiser <reiser@namesys.com> description: ReiserFS journaled filesystem alias: fs-reiserfs srcversion: 23CF1D4EFC3665DC9373C96 depends: intree: Y vermagic: 4.4.71-1-default SMP mod_unload modversions signer: openSUSE Secure Boot Signkey sig_key: 03:32:FA:9C:BF:0D:88:BF:21:92:4B:0D:E8:2A:09:A5:4D:5D:EF:C8 sig_hashalgo: sha256
I have similar filename: /lib/modules/4.13.5-1-default/kernel/fs/reiserfs/reiserfs.ko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/09/17 01:18 PM, Richard Brown wrote:
On 20 September 2017 at 18:39, Dave Howorth <dave@howorth.org.uk> wrote:
I think the problem here is the approach that has been taken to "sell" the decision to the great unwashed (i.e. me and others).
There's been no attempt to explain or persuade at all. Besides every single post I've made on these threads..
A, Richard! No, really, what have you done: - proof by bombast - proof by "Go Lemmings, go! (aka look what all these other distributions are doing) And now, if you're not careful, you'll get into proof by intimidate.
If you are interested in openSUSE, you should really read our actual news sources then, such as:
https://plus.google.com/+openSUSE/posts/HQL7L3VMzCV
https://twitter.com/openSUSE/status/907498199644073984
https://www.facebook.com/en.opensuse/posts/10155276371912284
See my other post on the morass that is Twitter-dom and Facebook-dom. But note also that I *DO* read the blog, that I read the blog and noticed this (poorly worded in my opinion) announcement and brought to the attention of others on this list. Maybe there are people out there (apart from your President and multi-various journalists, students) with nothing better to do with their time wan wade tough the garbage of the latter-day USENET for incidental gems. I have a life. And a cat to feed. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-09-20 19:18, Richard Brown wrote:
On 20 September 2017 at 18:39, Dave Howorth <dave@howorth.org.uk> wrote:
I think the problem here is the approach that has been taken to "sell" the decision to the great unwashed (i.e. me and others).
There's been no attempt to explain or persuade at all.
Besides every single post I've made on these threads..
I first heard about this upcoming change at the beginning of the Killing ReiserFS thread. Maybe I should have known earlier but as far as possible I just use openSUSE and following this list is as far as I go in keeping in touch.
If you are interested in openSUSE, you should really read our actual news sources then, such as:
https://plus.google.com/+openSUSE/posts/HQL7L3VMzCV
https://twitter.com/openSUSE/status/907498199644073984
https://www.facebook.com/en.opensuse/posts/10155276371912284
Really? Places I never use and I'll never use. I have a life. I would expect "news.opensuse.org". Many things are announced in the factory mail list. There are also specific and automated announcements lists.
or
https://lizards.opensuse.org/2017/09/07/highlights-of-yast-development-sprin...
Well, Anton read that. It was he who told us about it. And after reading it, there are doubts that you do not clarify, you have not yet answered the questions.
This is 100% NOT the right place to learn ANYTHING about openSUSE News
This is the right place to ask any question about openSUSE, such as the questions Anton made which you do not answer. It is the users of the support mail list who decide what to ask. The community at large. ...
Don't expect them to be lurking here and replying to you. They shouldn't be, this is a user support list, which therefore contains posts that are 99% irrelevant for them 99% of the time. And that's how it should be.
With that attitude, don't be surprised about the us and them thought (you used the "them" word). They want to be isolated from us, that's clear from what you say... -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 13:19, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 10:28:01 +0300 Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Hmm, https://github.com/kdave/btrfs-progs/issues/40
Add reiserfs support to btrfs-convert
kdave commented Sep 8, 2017
Released in v4.13.
So we're asked to trust our data to a program that had its first release less than two weeks ago?
I think not.
This whole episode looks more and more like a bunch of btrfs fanbois deciding to force a herd of sheep into the abbatoir.
Even more fuck-in-the-making: - You have a small /(root) partition, lets say below 25GB with a non-btrfs file-system. - Yep, you can convert that with btrfs-convert. - Yep, the standard defaults will be used. - Happy pants-shitting with the next bigger update. Because, due to the "standard defaults" for the btrfs and those oh so WONDERFUL snappshots, you are out-of-space. So, Richard & Co. where are the modified "defaults" for such small /(root) filesystems with btrfs?? Either deliver working "defaults" for such a situation, or preach re-intall with bigger (more than 60GB) /(root) partition. - Yamaban PS: After more than 23 years with Linux at home and at work, I have a great deal of dislike for Ext[234]-fs due to the I-node situation. But that is DWARFED by the dislike for Btrfs, due to the SUPER repair-ablility when something goes wrong with it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20 September 2017 at 19:30, Yamaban <foerster@lisas.de> wrote:
So, Richard & Co. where are the modified "defaults" for such small /(root) filesystems with btrfs??
https://i.imgur.com/u1qTiDj.png -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
20.09.2017 20:44, Richard Brown пишет:
On 20 September 2017 at 19:30, Yamaban <foerster@lisas.de> wrote:
So, Richard & Co. where are the modified "defaults" for such small /(root) filesystems with btrfs??
This is irrelevant, the question was about upgrade, not new installation; you are not going to wipe out your disk and create new partition proposal incorporating these settings on upgrade. Show screenshot from upgrade where it is possible to modify this behavior. Or explain how to do it post-installation/upgrade (and what are defaults on upgrade). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-09-20 21:11, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
20.09.2017 20:44, Richard Brown пишет:
On 20 September 2017 at 19:30, Yamaban <foerster@lisas.de> wrote:
So, Richard & Co. where are the modified "defaults" for such small /(root) filesystems with btrfs??
This is irrelevant, the question was about upgrade, not new installation; you are not going to wipe out your disk and create new partition proposal incorporating these settings on upgrade.
And will it create all the needed volumes and subvolumes? Because this is not documented, there is no documented backup/restore from scratch procedure when btrfs is involved, as far as I know. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
Op woensdag 20 september 2017 19:30:41 CEST schreef Yamaban:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 13:19, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 10:28:01 +0300 Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Hmm, https://github.com/kdave/btrfs-progs/issues/40
Add reiserfs support to btrfs-convert
kdave commented Sep 8, 2017
Released in v4.13.
So we're asked to trust our data to a program that had its first release less than two weeks ago?
I think not.
This whole episode looks more and more like a bunch of btrfs fanbois deciding to force a herd of sheep into the abbatoir.
Even more fuck-in-the-making: - You have a small /(root) partition, lets say below 25GB with a non-btrfs file-system. - Yep, you can convert that with btrfs-convert. - Yep, the standard defaults will be used. - Happy pants-shitting with the next bigger update.
Because, due to the "standard defaults" for the btrfs and those oh so WONDERFUL snappshots, you are out-of-space.
So, Richard & Co. where are the modified "defaults" for such small /(root) filesystems with btrfs??
Either deliver working "defaults" for such a situation, or preach re-intall with bigger (more than 60GB) /(root) partition.
- Yamaban
PS: After more than 23 years with Linux at home and at work, I have a great deal of dislike for Ext[234]-fs due to the I-node situation. But that is DWARFED by the dislike for Btrfs, due to the SUPER repair-ablility when something goes wrong with it.
WTF is every bit of change a reason to attack individuals? It's a bloody shame. And it annoys not just me, people even phoned me to complain about this incrowd ML. -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-09-20 20:44, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
Op woensdag 20 september 2017 19:30:41 CEST schreef Yamaban:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 13:19, Dave Howorth wrote:
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 10:28:01 +0300 Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Hmm, https://github.com/kdave/btrfs-progs/issues/40
Add reiserfs support to btrfs-convert
kdave commented Sep 8, 2017
Released in v4.13.
So we're asked to trust our data to a program that had its first release less than two weeks ago?
I think not.
This whole episode looks more and more like a bunch of btrfs fanbois deciding to force a herd of sheep into the abbatoir.
Even more fuck-in-the-making: - You have a small /(root) partition, lets say below 25GB with a non-btrfs file-system. - Yep, you can convert that with btrfs-convert. - Yep, the standard defaults will be used. - Happy pants-shitting with the next bigger update.
Because, due to the "standard defaults" for the btrfs and those oh so WONDERFUL snappshots, you are out-of-space.
So, Richard & Co. where are the modified "defaults" for such small /(root) filesystems with btrfs??
Either deliver working "defaults" for such a situation, or preach re-intall with bigger (more than 60GB) /(root) partition.
- Yamaban
PS: After more than 23 years with Linux at home and at work, I have a great deal of dislike for Ext[234]-fs due to the I-node situation. But that is DWARFED by the dislike for Btrfs, due to the SUPER repair-ablility when something goes wrong with it.
WTF is every bit of change a reason to attack individuals? It's a bloody shame. And it annoys not just me, people even phoned me to complain about this incrowd ML.
I get private posts saying the contrary. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 2017-09-20 09:28, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Dave Plater <dplater.list@gmail.com> wrote:
One question, is there a reliable partition converter for a new user with limited space which has valuable information and everything on /?
Standard btrfs-convert supports in-place conversion from reiserfs.
Ah! Conversion to btrfs; I should have known. Well, no thanks :-/ -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
Op woensdag 20 september 2017 08:45:08 CEST schreef Stevens:
On the odd chance that I was ignored for possibly hijacking a thread, I shall start a new one but copy and paste my comments in hope of an answer:
(re: Killing ReiserFS) I have been following this thread with some interest because of having been running ReiserFS since before he turned homicidal. I have had zero, count that ZERO, problems in all that time so I read with some dismay the effort to actively kill its usage in this whatever-you-call-it distro.
I think that the more relevant question to ask is not "can we keep this file system around, pretty please" but "what distros are allowing its use by not actively trying to kill it"? I have used opensuse since before Mandrake went away, which has been a while and, although I don't really want to change distros, I am not married to suse (or leap, or whatever).
I feel that what we have here with opensuse/leap is an example of the classic "swing" cartoon which shows the stages of project development from sales, engineering, installation and what the customer actually wanted. My need is not as complex as some and for that ReiserFS works quite well.
So, my question remains, "If not suse/leap, then who"?
Hopefully someone will know what distros allow the freedom to use whichever FS one wishes without running afoul of the FS nazis.
Summary: * Most distros stopped supporting reiserfs ages ago. * Reiser himself declared reiserfs v3 dead and to be avoided. * Reiserfs4 had 65 downloads over the past 2 years, have a look at all the documentation/wiki, it's all outdated or simply no longer there. * Kernel.org is not going to support reiserfs4. And yes, me too had a couple of old reiserfs partitions with very valuable data ( own music, photo's, video ), total ~750GB. Had, until yesterday. The summary above was reason enough to do some sysadmin work, i.e. backup and restore. All are xfs now to avoid future unpleasant surprises. Call me an idiot. -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hi Stevens! Am 20.09.2017 um 08:45 schrieb Stevens:
On the odd chance that I was ignored for possibly hijacking a thread, I shall start a new one but copy and paste my comments in hope of an answer:
(re: Killing ReiserFS) I have been following this thread with some interest because of having been running ReiserFS since before he turned homicidal. I have had zero, count that ZERO, problems in all that time so I read with some dismay the effort to actively kill its usage in this whatever-you-call-it distro. This may change with time as for every unmaintained or badly maintained code. I think that the more relevant question to ask is not "can we keep this file system around, pretty please" but "what distros are allowing its use by not actively trying to kill it"? I have used opensuse since before Mandrake went away, which has been a while and, although I don't really want to change distros, I am not married to suse (or leap, or whatever). But it looks like you are married with ReiserFS... ;-) I feel that what we have here with opensuse/leap is an example of the classic "swing" cartoon which shows the stages of project development from sales, engineering, installation and what the customer actually wanted. My need is not as complex as some and for that ReiserFS works quite well. If your needs aren't complex, other file system shall work for you, too. ReiserFS can be considered dead. So, my question remains, "If not suse/leap, then who"?
Hopefully someone will know what distros allow the freedom to use whichever FS one wishes without running afoul of the FS nazis.
The problem aren't the ones building the distro. If ReiserFS would been maintained, nobody would think about dropping it. Even if you find another distro wiht ReiserFS included, it's only a matter of time, until you write the same main on another mailing list. Herbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/09/17 02:45 AM, Stevens wrote:
I have been following this thread with some interest because of having been running ReiserFS since before he turned homicidal. I have had zero, count that ZERO, problems in all that time [...]
Quite so. Me too, and in discussion quite a number of others. I don't deny that with adequate malice or adequate fumble-fingers or trying to do system maintenance first thing in the AM before intravenous injection of adequate caffeine one can, even I can, bork any carefully robust system, whatever the file system.. that's why I do my maintenance last thing at night when my cat has gone to sleep. :-)
I think that the more relevant question to ask is not "can we keep this file system around, pretty please" but "what distros are allowing its use by not actively trying to kill it"? I have used opensuse since before Mandrake went away,
Ah yes, I used mandrake for a while, then saw their financial tottering so moved and rapidly converged on openSuse. I have a friend who went with the version that emerged when the their techies fled, to what is it, Mageia, back in 2010. Now there's openMandriva. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mageia#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenMandriva_Lx#Origin_of_the_distribution I admit that I have been more comfortable with opensuse than I was with mandrake ... until now.
which has been a while and, although I don't really want to change distros, I am not married to suse (or leap, or whatever).
I feel that what we have here with opensuse/leap is an example of the classic "swing" cartoon which shows the stages of project development from sales, engineering, installation and what the customer actually wanted. My need is not as complex as some and for that ReiserFS works quite well.
Yes, that's a good example. Have a great diversity of options, never forcing the user's hands, is one way of being able to accommodate the wide range of platforms, users and use-cases. Once things start narrowing you know that a vendor or packager is no longer interested in part of the market. Things like BtrFS are admirable suited to the up-market server use-case, they are the kind of thing that mainframe users expect. That's all well and good and I laud those efforts. It was where SUN was and was going, where Oracle is, and Oracle is heavily into BtrFS. But does this mean that the Linux vendors have rolled over and admitted that Microsoft owns the desktop? Come on guys, say it isn't so. ReiserFS is an admirable example of the kind of FS that a home user who isn't concerned with sysadmin and issues of pre-provisioning needs.
So, my question remains, "If not suse/leap, then who"?
Hopefully someone will know what distros allow the freedom to use whichever FS one wishes without running afoul of the FS nazis.
FS Nazis?? Surely to you mean the Borg. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/20/2017 07:13 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
Ah yes, I used mandrake for a while, then saw their financial tottering so moved and rapidly converged on openSuse.
That is just funny. My last Mandrake was 7.2 in ? 2002? when their financial tottering showed in painful detail how $ can cause a distro to implode.
I admit that I have been more comfortable with opensuse than I was with mandrake ... until now.
For all that have been around long enough to know SuSE, the deal with the devil and then openSuSE, you know that the distro has run itself into the ditch several times, but always has a friend with a tow-strap that manages to pull it out and get them going down the straight and narrow again. You also know that decisions made by the distro are not always based on what is technically sound and best for the end-user of openSuSE. Recall the KDE 4.0.4 'release' with openSuSE 11.0? At that time, it was made clear to the user-base that for openSuSE we are here as the testbed for their commercial products and that decisions for the distribution are made with that in mind, not necessarily with what is best for the user-base or openSuSE end-user. Some decisions are just down right political and are obviously the made by one individual in the position to make the decision, without regard for the consequences on the community. You generally can smell those decisions from quite some distance away, as the logical cost-benefit, or cost to openSuSE to continue whatever feature is on the chopping block is trivial and cannot be argued with a straight-face as the reason for the decision. Take the current discussion regarding dropping ReiserFS. How does that come out on the cost-benefit analysis, or what is the cost to openSuSE to continue providing the simple kernel modules for the filesystem? I still have machines with Reiser, others do. It costs nothing to continue to provide the filesystem. So this seems like one of those decisions that may have a political twang to it, and it was definitely noticeable from quite some distance away. It doesn't appear justified on a technical basis, or at least there has been no offering of a technical justification. So, if Reiser is dropped, this looks like one of those decisions where the effected users are being asked to take it in-the-short,.. after all, we are nothing but a testbed for somebody else's commercial product. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/09/17 07:45, Stevens wrote:
So, my question remains, "If not suse/leap, then who"?
Three obvious answers. Gentoo is there to give you choice. Configure Reiser in and off you go. If you don't fancy a "compile from source" distro look at Sabayon, which is apparently effectively a pre-compiled gentoo. The other obvious one to look at, which is similar but about which I know nothing, is Arch. Of course, none of these will protect you if Reiser breaks because it's no longer supported at kernel level. Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
(old thread, retaken) On 2017-09-20 08:45, Stevens wrote:
On the odd chance that I was ignored for possibly hijacking a thread, I shall start a new one but copy and paste my comments in hope of an answer:
(re: Killing ReiserFS) I have been following this thread with some interest because of having been running ReiserFS since before he turned homicidal. I have had zero, count that ZERO, problems in all that time so I read with some dismay the effort to actively kill its usage in this whatever-you-call-it distro.
I think that the more relevant question to ask is not "can we keep this file system around, pretty please" but "what distros are allowing its use by not actively trying to kill it"? I have used opensuse since before Mandrake went away, which has been a while and, although I don't really want to change distros, I am not married to suse (or leap, or whatever).
I feel that what we have here with opensuse/leap is an example of the classic "swing" cartoon which shows the stages of project development from sales, engineering, installation and what the customer actually wanted. My need is not as complex as some and for that ReiserFS works quite well.
So, my question remains, "If not suse/leap, then who"?
Hopefully someone will know what distros allow the freedom to use whichever FS one wishes without running afoul of the FS nazis.
Well, I have to answer today that Leap 15.0 handles reiserfs just fine :-))) I have it on a data partition listed on fstab, no problem. New install (for testing). YaST did not complain when told to mount an existing reiserfs partition for data. I have not tested upgrading with home on reiserfs, though, which is an issue for me on this laptop. I would then have to repartition and migrate files, and create a small new partition as reiserfs for some uses. Not a big issue. Thank you to all the people that made this possible :-))) -- Cheers/Saludos Carlos E. R. (testing openSUSE Leap 15.0, at Minas-Anor) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (22)
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Andrei Borzenkov -
Anthony Youngman -
Anton Aylward -
Carlos E. R. -
Daniel Bauer -
Dave Howorth -
Dave Plater -
David C. Rankin -
ellanios82 -
Fraser_Bell -
Herbert Graeber -
Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Richard Brown -
Rodney Baker -
Roger Oberholtzer -
Roger Price -
Stevens -
Vojtěch Zeisek -
Wols Lists
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Yamaban