Each and every Linux distro has a right to exist. There is no universal answer what distro is the best for everyone. Personally I've tried Slackware, Red Had, Caldera, Yellow Dog, Mandrake, SuSE, Debian, Stampede, LFS and other less known Linux distros. Each Linux distro has its own weak and strong points. On a large scale Linux distro is just a linux kernel bound with installation/configuration tools and packages. You can create your own distro for yourself or for your business. I've already created my own Linux distro for high tech and engineering applications which we are using in our eng. dept. It's up to you with what distro you'll stick for a long or short period of time. Enjoy your freedom. Alex

I see you. So, what you think about other distribs? Mandrake etc.

Eric,

As well as every user of a Linux distro has the right to painless and quick installs of the programs that enable them to be productive.

This right of painless and quick installation is not guaranteed by any Linux distro nether evil M$. Read carefully their disclaimers and M$ EULA. You can have this right if you're taking responsibility of bying commercial support for your distro. Free cheese is only in a mouse trap.

Congratulations on all of the distros you're installed. Please don't insinuate that those of us who don't have the time you do, aren't worthy of Linux.

Well, I installed and configured many Linux distros not because I wanted to be more geeky than you are. My work tasks and project requirements forced me to do so.

I'm not saying you are just a non-productive geek. Far from it.

Because of

people like you distros get refined. Because of people like you Linux becomes a worthy competitor to MS$.

I can't take credits for refining Lunux distros you're giving me. I'm using Linux as a tool my day to day tasks, development and nothing more.

But, at the same time please realize that I need to get a database up and running that has a web interface. I'm not productive if I have to spend hours trying to figure out what environment variables and paths need to be set to get the database, Perl, and Java up and running. Conflicts? What conflicts? :-))

See the issue? You can't get something for nothing. If you didn't spend a dime on commercial preconfigured environment with DB, Perl and Java you have to spend your time to build it on your own.

Presently it takes minutes on a MS$ OS whereas hours on Linux because the distro I'm using doesn't have the same files in a location some other distro has.

M$ is a standardized commercial system with each bell and whisle for an additional price. Linux is an open system with multiple distros to choose from. Pick up the right one for you and stick with it. If something is not included,get a tar ball or compile it from the sources. What do you expect? Just to spend a few bucks for boxen Linux distro with tons of free soft which starts to work for you righ out of the box? You can calculate what it would cost to you if you were using the same number of commercial software for your projects vs. free soft. You have to cover a part of this difference in price with your time by studing the system and RTFM. It will be beneficial for you in a long run Alex

Hi Actually I have had few instances, where installing M$ has been a *real* pain, no autodetect most of the HW, lockups, wrong drivers, right drivers refuces to install correctly etc etc... And to the same computer installing Linux is simple as ever. Everything is autodetected correctly, and it is up and running in no time. So it is not a general thing, that Linux failes to install... So does other OS too! It should be taken case by case, and not in general. Jaska. On Monday 17 June 2002 23:38, Eric wrote:

Alex,

I agree with your arguement about a quick and easy install. I'm just speaking from experience. Install on MS$ and it's quick and painless. Install on *nix and it's quite painful and time consuming.

Do I pay MS$ US$200 and get fast installs right away, so I'm working, or do I download a free program and spend hours (at US$50) to get it to work. So far from my experience the value goes to MS$. Not that I've given up on *nix, it's just that I've had the time to devote to RTFM'ing along with trial and error. But it sure is expensive. We'll see if I recoup my investment.

Eric

Here are some tips for Paul and those that seem to be having more trouble with SuSE 8.0 then the rest of us. Hope it helps some. Pulled directly from: DR. SEUSS's COMPUTER MANUAL 1) If a packet hits a pocket on a socket on a port, and the bus is interrupted as a very last resort, and the address of the memory makes your floppy disk abort, then the socket packet pocket has an error to report. 2) If your cursor finds a menu item followed by a dash, and the double-click icon puts your window in the trash, and your data is corrupted cause the index doesn't hash, then your situation's hopeless and your system's gonna crash! 3) If the label on the cable on the table at your house, says the network is connected to the button on your mouse, but your packets want to tunnel on another protocol, that's repeatedly rejected by the printer down the hall, and your screen is all distorted by the side effects of gauss, so your icons in the window are as wavy as a souse, then you may as well reboot and go out with a bang, cause as sure as I'm a poet, the sucker's gonna hang! 4) When the copy of your floppy's getting sloppy on the disk and the microcode instructions cause unnecessary risk, then you have to flash your memory and you'll want to RAM your ROM. Quickly turn off the computer and be sure to tell your Mom. Patrick :o) -- ----------end of line........ --- KMail v1.4.1 --- SuSE Linux Pro v8.0 --- Registered Linux User #225206 "Department of Redundancy Department"

On Monday 17 June 2002 13:38, Eric wrote:

Alex,

Time is money. At US$50 per hour, it doesn't take long for it to become real money.

Very true, but once you are past the installation and configuration, your time involvement goes WAY down in comparison to Microsoft products.

I'd love to have a job like yours. I truely would if I could give up my other stuff.

I agree with your arguement about a quick and easy install. I'm just speaking from experience. Install on MS$ and it's quick and painless. Install on *nix and it's quite painful and time consuming.

There are just too many examples of people having trouble installing Windows for me to even believe this. Having tried Red Hat, Mandrake, and SuSE (which I have been using for over a year now), I can honestly say SuSE is by far the easiest install of any OS I have ever had, and that includes Windows 98 and Windows 2k.

Do I pay MS$ US$200 and get fast installs right away, so I'm working, or do I download a free program and spend hours (at US$50) to get it to work. So far from my experience the value goes to MS$. Not that I've given up on *nix, it's just that I've had the time to devote to RTFM'ing along with trial and error. But it sure is expensive. We'll see if I recoup my investment.

Eric

You might get a faster install with Windows (although I doubt it), but the long term costs are just ridiculous. If I were doing all of the stuff with Windows that I do right now with SuSE, my cost outlay would be well over $30,000 for software and access licenses. So I think that spending a few hours per computer getting everything installed and configured is pretty inexpensive. Linux is powerful and stable, but nobody ever said it was simple. Kevin

Ok, I just have to say this, it's eating me alive...One of the great things about SuSE over all the other distros I have tried is its install time, it is why I switched to begin with... <=4 hours from format to finish (and that includes all the office stuff, irc etc...on a P266). Now for MS to install with the same functionality is >15 hours (on a P450). Now I am not talking about just the OS, but the fact that MS does not come pre-equipped with all the extras. So, after you install MS, you have to install office, and this and that, then go download a crap load of stuff, netscape,eatherreal,all the program compilers,(GUI)ftp,irc...and so forth. By the time I get everything installed on MS, my weekend is over. BUT, with Linux (SuSE in particular) I am done with ONE install...I LOVE IT :) ...and it's much cheaper then M$...~$70 vs ~$200?! can't beat that! I have tried other distros that take pretty much the same time as MS to install, granted. But once I went with SuSE, that install speed was great (and it picked up all the hardware, and printer too!...just like MS) In the past year I have had to reformat Winblows 2 times cause of corrupt registry and a Trojan, but SuSE is still chugging alone happily. <snip> : Do I pay MS$ US$200 and get fast installs right away, so I'm : working, or do I : download a free program and spend hours (at US$50) to get it to : work. So far : from my experience the value goes to MS$. Not that I've given up : on *nix, : it's just that I've had the time to devote to RTFM'ing along with : trial and : error. But it sure is expensive. We'll see if I recoup my investment.

On Monday 17 June 2002 12:32, Eric wrote:

Alex,

Agreed. Every Linux distro does have a right to exist.

Presently it takes minutes on a MS$ OS whereas hours on Linux because the distro I'm using doesn't have the same files in a location some other distro has.

Simple, complain to the distro to get its lazy act together and get in line with the LSB.

Just the other side of the Linux saga.

Eric

Matt

On Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 09:32:59PM +0200, Eric wrote:

Presently it takes minutes on a MS$ OS whereas hours on Linux because the distro I'm using doesn't have the same files in a location some other distro has.

Presently, it also takes minutes for your MS server to get infected by code red or nimda if you expose it to the Internet where these worms still run rampant. It will also take you hours *every month* to download, patch, and reboot your MS server to keep it alive on the Internet. Linux setup doesn't look so bad in this light. Best Regards, Keith -- LPIC-2, MCSE, N+ Right behind you, I see the millions Got spam? Get spastic http://spastic.sourceforge.net

Eric wrote:

Correct. But only if I have those problems. Linux isn't immune to those things. Presently it's just doesn't have the visibility and condemnation that MS$ does.

Looking at the black dot in the white paper? Apache have far much more visibility (or at least, presence) than IIS in the web, but worms seems to still hitting IIS. Installed base don't seems to be an excuse in that case. Worse than that, vulnerabilities in IIS keeps showing up, but just today I saw the first remote DoS in Apache (only for Win32/Netware/64bit systems) in months or years.

Once Linux gets there those crackers will start focusing on it.

Login as normal user. Try to modify a system-wide file (i.e something in /etc or /usr/bin) as whatever virus would do. As users keep login in as plain users the risk is far lower than in Windows (even in 2k/xp you have to be running with administrator privileges to run even not so old Microsoft Games) Saludos Gustavo

El Tue, 18 Jun 2002 08:15:23 +0200 eric.linux@t-online.de (Eric) escribio:

You've got a point about Apache. Only time will tell how well it holds up. I hope it holds up very well.

Agreed about the normal user modifying files. But isn't it the intent of crackers to circumvent existing security? Brute force password cracking as one example? Scripts that masquerade as other processes?

That they try doesn't mean that they will succeed :) Is all in how well you administer your system (your examples implies a multiuser systems with shell accounts, not desktop computers). But you enough tools to prevent or detect most of this. Included with SuSE there scripts that warns you when a system file is modified, when files have wrong attributes, or even when you put easily guessable passwords. But, if you compare systems with the damage that could be done having local users to access the system, well, a plain no-rights guest user could have a nice blue screen in NT/2000/XP(?) doing a "type" (and at least in NT, tihis probably will not be fixed, while still keeps coming new versions of kernels 2.0.x). Saludos Gustavo

On Monday 17 June 2002 10:52, Alex Daniloff wrote:

Sounds like you're primarily a Windows user. All your whining and grievances related to your inability to configure your system through graphical configuration interfaces and tools. Kind of select this menu click that button attitude. I can give a good advise: Get yourself a good Linux book and study the system guts. Practically all Linux user are testers and debuggers of their systems. It makes Linux more better and superior with every new release.

I sympathize, but there are two things wrong with what you said: 1) Getting intimate with the OS and learning all its guts is what geeks and enthusiasts do -- and that's a fine thing that, as you say, results in continuing improvement. However, over the protests of many Linux geeks, the distribution companies are trying to move beyond that model. They are attempting a model for Linux that everyday computer users -- the people who use it only as a tool to get their real work done, and who do not derive joy from endless configuration and debugging -- can embrace. In other words, the companies are trying to entice the ordinary user who does not consider it an opportunity for fun when the OS or the applications break during working hours. When the boss is waiting impatiently for the reports or the proposals, or the artwork, or.... (name something that is not code) whatever a business boss might legitimately require from the employees, then neither the boss nor the employee is smiling about this new opportunity to learn more about the guts of the tool. 2) The process that you describe (constant improvement by users who dig and debug everything) does not -- apparently -- apply to the GUI installers and setup tools. That's because all those eager geeks are busy testing and improving the non-gui parts and they disdain to even look at the gui parts. So, the GUI setup tools continue to have big holes in them. Those would be the tools that would be used by... oh.... say, Windows users attempting to come over from Windows, because they've heard that Linux is so great and can do all the stuff that Windows can, only better.... You sound as though you'd like to send all of us dirty Windows users back to the embrace of Uncle Bill, and deny our millions of dollars to such sell-out companies as.... Red Hat, SuSE, etc. I agree that people using Linux for servers and network/system administration should develop a fairly comprehensive knowledge of the full OS (same for hobbyists and interested power users). People who just want to install it, fire it up, and start doing the same ordinary tasks they were performing on the same PC with Windows... should not need to learn all about what's under the hood. Probably what's really needed here is a separation of this list into one that's very FAQ-like, and one that's very cryptic. You'd be happy with the cryptic list that assumes a lot of knowledge as a pre-requisite, and you'd not be bothered by all the FAQ-ish questions and "---- doesn't work!" messages. The newbies and the dabblers and the serious "I just need this to work as a TOOL and not a hobby" people would be happy with the other list. I salute the maintainer of the Unofficial SuSE FAQ, but I point out that many of the things I want to know are either not in there, or are there in terms that don't catch my attention, because I'm accustomed to different terms. So, I bless the folks on this list who don't say "RTFM!" and "FAQ, you whining newbie!", and instead say things like: "RTFM, probably the sections on X and Y are what you need." or "See the ?? section in the FAQ (http://www.....) which sounds like what you are looking for." and especially "Stop pursuing this line of question. You'll only get more frustrated and lost. Try reading about *this* and *that* instead, and see if it helps." I guess what I'm saying is that there's a need for knowledgeable people who remember the frustrations and the apparent discontinuities of being new or occasional to Linux. Bless the several who are here now!! But maybe a separation into two or three levels of mailing list would make it more bearable for the old hands who just want three-letter responses to tell them all that they need in order to solve a problem. Or something like that... A final thought: People who were power users of Windows and who had developed a comprehensive knowledge of the Registry and of command-line manipulations, are likely to know what to look for when they come to Linux. It won't have the same names, but at least they'll have the concepts and an idea of how they are all supposed to connect. But, people whose only contact with the Windows OS was to log in and then to click on their REAL tools (office apps, SAP front-ends, etc.) are going to be reacting just the way you've seen them/us react. "Hey! They said Linux was ready for the desktop user. They lied?" Remember, some people see a broken clock as an opportunity to take it apart and see what makes it tick... or not tick... Most people see a broken clock as a reason to buy a new clock. You are one of the former, and you are now encountering a bunch of the latter. At least be willing to acknowledge that the world would be a poorer place without people who buy new clocks. It could be worse. Just wait until you get all the new users mailing their questions from AOL.... (buaaaaahahahahaaaaaaaa) /kevin (a fumbler and dabbler)

Kevin, I agree 1,000%! I groan and shake when I have to install something that doesn't come from Suse because I just know it's going to take hours to figure it out. I need to get work done....not play geek. Here's an example: I'm not familiar with SuSE but make sure these environment variables are set correctly(you can find out by typing 'env' in the console) export KDEDIR=absolut_path_to _where_KDE3_is_installed export QTDIR=absolut_path_to _where_QT3_is_installed export PATH=$KDEDIR/bin:$QTDIR/bin:$PATH export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$KDEDIR/lib:$QTDIR/lib:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH export LIBRARY_PATH=$KDEDIR/lib:$QTDIR/lib:$LIBRARY_PATH export CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH=$KDEDIR/lib:$QTDIR/lib:$CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH and then compile like this: ./configure --prefix=absolut_path_to _where_KDE3_is_installed --with-qt-dir=absolut_path_to _where_QT3_is_installed make make install One slight problem here. I have no idea where absolut_path_to_where_KDE3_is_installed or any of the other absolut_paths_to_what_ever is installed. Hopefully, with the joining of Suse and others, a standard installation of files will be set. But then the free spirits will rebel I suppose :-)) For once I hope Corporate will take over and bow to consumer pressure. Just my $0.02 Eric On Monday 17 June 2002 20:15, Kevin McLauchlan wrote:

On Monday 17 June 2002 10:52, Alex Daniloff wrote:

...

Sounds like you're primarily a Windows user. All your whining and grievances related to your inability to configure your system through graphical configuration interfaces and tools. Kind of select this menu click that button attitude. I can give a good advise: Get yourself a good Linux book and study the system guts. Practically all Linux user are testers and debuggers of their systems. It makes Linux more better and superior with every new release.

I sympathize, but there are two things wrong with what you said:

1) Getting intimate with the OS and learning all its guts is what geeks and enthusiasts do -- and that's a fine thing that, as you say, results in continuing improvement. However, over the protests of many Linux geeks, the distribution companies are trying to move beyond that model. They are attempting a model for Linux that everyday computer users -- the people who use it only as a tool to get their real work done, and who do not derive joy from endless configuration and debugging -- can embrace. In other words, the companies are trying to entice the ordinary user who does not consider it an opportunity for fun when the OS or the applications break during working hours. When the boss is waiting impatiently for the reports or the proposals, or the artwork, or.... (name something that is not code) whatever a business boss might legitimately require from the employees, then neither the boss nor the employee is smiling about this new opportunity to learn more about the guts of the tool.

2) The process that you describe (constant improvement by users who dig and debug everything) does not -- apparently -- apply to the GUI installers and setup tools. That's because all those eager geeks are busy testing and improving the non-gui parts and they disdain to even look at the gui parts. So, the GUI setup tools continue to have big holes in them. Those would be the tools that would be used by... oh.... say, Windows users attempting to come over from Windows, because they've heard that Linux is so great and can do all the stuff that Windows can, only better....

You sound as though you'd like to send all of us dirty Windows users back to the embrace of Uncle Bill, and deny our millions of dollars to such sell-out companies as.... Red Hat, SuSE, etc.

I agree that people using Linux for servers and network/system administration should develop a fairly comprehensive knowledge of the full OS (same for hobbyists and interested power users). People who just want to install it, fire it up, and start doing the same ordinary tasks they were performing on the same PC with Windows... should not need to learn all about what's under the hood.

Probably what's really needed here is a separation of this list into one that's very FAQ-like, and one that's very cryptic. You'd be happy with the cryptic list that assumes a lot of knowledge as a pre-requisite, and you'd not be bothered by all the FAQ-ish questions and "---- doesn't work!" messages. The newbies and the dabblers and the serious "I just need this to work as a TOOL and not a hobby" people would be happy with the other list.

I salute the maintainer of the Unofficial SuSE FAQ, but I point out that many of the things I want to know are either not in there, or are there in terms that don't catch my attention, because I'm accustomed to different terms. So, I bless the folks on this list who don't say "RTFM!" and "FAQ, you whining newbie!", and instead say things like: "RTFM, probably the sections on X and Y are what you need." or "See the ?? section in the FAQ (http://www.....) which sounds like what you are looking for." and especially "Stop pursuing this line of question. You'll only get more frustrated and lost. Try reading about *this* and *that* instead, and see if it helps."

I guess what I'm saying is that there's a need for knowledgeable people who remember the frustrations and the apparent discontinuities of being new or occasional to Linux. Bless the several who are here now!! But maybe a separation into two or three levels of mailing list would make it more bearable for the old hands who just want three-letter responses to tell them all that they need in order to solve a problem.

Or something like that...

A final thought: People who were power users of Windows and who had developed a comprehensive knowledge of the Registry and of command-line manipulations, are likely to know what to look for when they come to Linux. It won't have the same names, but at least they'll have the concepts and an idea of how they are all supposed to connect.

But, people whose only contact with the Windows OS was to log in and then to click on their REAL tools (office apps, SAP front-ends, etc.) are going to be reacting just the way you've seen them/us react. "Hey! They said Linux was ready for the desktop user. They lied?"

Remember, some people see a broken clock as an opportunity to take it apart and see what makes it tick... or not tick... Most people see a broken clock as a reason to buy a new clock. You are one of the former, and you are now encountering a bunch of the latter. At least be willing to acknowledge that the world would be a poorer place without people who buy new clocks.

It could be worse. Just wait until you get all the new users mailing their questions from AOL.... (buaaaaahahahahaaaaaaaa)

/kevin (a fumbler and dabbler)

Op ma 17-06-2002, om 16:52 schreef Alex Daniloff:

Sounds like you're primarily a Windows user. All your whining and grievances related to your inability to configure your system through graphical configuration interfaces and tools. Kind of select this menu click that button attitude. I can give a good advise: Get yourself a good Linux book and study the system guts. Practically all Linux user are testers and debuggers of their systems. It makes Linux more better and superior with every new release.

Alex

I'm using linux for many years now. Even compiled my own system and used LFS several times, so i had to configure the system myself, without graphical interfaces. I only use windowz if i have to. Paul

-------------------

...

I realy mean it. After configuring my system and removing and/or installing some software, the system doesn't function correct anymore.

The problems are,

- Double menu entries in konqueror contextmenu (posted) - Double menu entries in system menu too - Entries in the menu for programs which are removed from the system (posted) - The longer i use the system, the slower it gets - Reinstalled GNOME but gdm can't be selected in YAST2 or kdm3 anymore - Removed WindowMaker then reinstalled it, got same problem as with GNOME - Used KDE control-center to configure kdm, which is probably the cause for the previous two problems, and here i had problems with fonts. - Some programs are not listed in the SuSE menu (posted) - Konqueror crashes - Konqueror audiocd kioslave doesn't work correct (posted) - Can't use 24bit with NVidia GL, without an irritating message (posted) - Creating IPP reports in cups doesn't work - Starting alsamixer from the menu doesn't work - Only embedding eog document in gnumeric works, others don't

- Had to install multiple times, at installation time i removed some programs from the installation list which were needed for the system (shouldn't be possible), after the initial installation the install continued in the curses based interface, because it couldn't start X.

- Read on the list that the support sucks - Seen to many posts on the list about problems with SuSE

I only used a few programs and already have a lot of problems, i'm not even going to try the rest.

I just bought SuSE 8.0 on Monday (1 week ago), and had nothing but problems, some of them were posted to the list, but i can't keep posting problems. I have better things to do, than to be a bug tracker for SuSE. Even RedHat is more stable then this.

I'm dumping my SuSE 8.0 in the trash (or can i get my money back) and will get myself a stable distro, any suggestions?

Paul

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...

Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com

-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com

Timothy Mason wrote:

He didn't whine. He slung a hammer. This is a normal part of the learning process, unless he's sneered off it.

Thank you very much for your reply. It is so great to hear such a response instead of the usual tired "stop whining" type of answer. SuSE 8.0 isn't all bad. I like das schöne mädchen von seite eins (sp?). Well, actually she is at 60% of disc one install but the song was funny. Damon Register