I agree with what you say Brian, and would add that SuSE is worth even what I'd pay for a M$ OS. But with regards to the tenor of Cliff's remarks: Pissing straight up is no way to water the crops.... JLK On Thursday 08 February 2001 04:44, Brian Galbraith wrote:

On Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 10:02:32AM +0000, Cliff Sarginson allegedly said:

...

Suse did not create Linux/GNU. They package it and include configuration facilities that they did write (and are not GPL'ed). I am not aware of any software packages that Suse have contributed back (X11 video drivers maybe ?).

It is my understanding that SuSE pays developers to work full time on projects which are then contributed back to the community. They are active in KDE, Reiser, and Kernel Development... There may be more?.

...

It is very sad for the Suse people who lost their jobs.

I agree 100%

...

This can happen to anyone working for a profit-hungry company. If this event has one beneficial side-effect it may make people realise that Suse is not the cuddly darling bunch of techno-geeks kindly contributing to world improvement that some people on this list seem to think they are.

See my comment above. SuSE is not a *cuddly darling bunch of techno geeks*. It is a private company, with bills to pay. And lets face it....the feed back from the US is not terribly heartening as far as business prospects are concerned. The description you gave may refer to Debian, as this is a non-profit making organisation.If I wanted to use Dedian, I could pay a lot less....but I don't.

I do not want to start a flame war...but I will make an observation here. As soon as a new release is announced...the list is usually flooded with mail complaining about prices and requests for cheap CDs with no support.Hardly encouraging for someone with bills to pay, especially when it is already better value for money than anything else on the market. Prior to version 7, I was paying almost double the US price, but I wanted to use SuSE. I value the extra work put into the distribution.

...

Suse GMBH is a hard-nosed bunch of businessmen seeking to maximise

bucks at minimum cost.

With my heart I agree, but with my head I can not.The very strong message coming from this list has been "I want more for less", and support is not important.

...

I sincerely hope the people that Suse have just shoved on the pavement gets jobs soon. Their technical Linux expertise should not make that difficult.

I concur with this.....the best of luck in the future, and my apologies for any embarassment caused by this discussion.

Regards

Brian

-- "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of people that these liberties are a gift of God? Thomas Jefferson - 1781

On 8 Feb 2001, at 11:15, Koos Pol gave vent to his wrath in these terms :

"My 2 pennyworth"? Maybe 1 pennyworth. At most. I hardly have ever read such rediculous and offending words from this list. Why don't you go to RedHat and hang on their ftp server for 2 x 650 MB's? You have no place here. Please leave.

I re-read Chris Sarginson's post three times. (I do not know him by the way). Where does it even hint that SuSE is any worse than its competitors ? Where is the least suggestion of disrespect or lack of sympathy for SuSE's employees ? I have read far worse (and far less rational), things said about SuSE by other correspondents to this list, and I don't recall anyone taking it upon themselves to issue invitations to leave. SuSE "owns" this list, and to its great credit (to the best of my knowledge at least), the company does not shut out its critics. If SuSE is big enough to tolerate reasoned dissent, can't you do the same ? Regards, Geoff _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

I find Mandrake to be better suited to newbies than SuSE actually. The one true benefit I see in SuSE is that they inlcude EVERYTHING a newbie could want. Crap loads of games and desktop programs mostly. Real server software is often lacking or in some warped version from what I see on Debian or RedHat systems which bothers me somewhat. I'm not saying SuSE doesn't do a good job, just that I don't think it is really that user friendly for new users. Also a lot oft he packages I suppose are missing can be found from SuSE's ftp site but usually not in the English directories which is somewhat annoying to me as an English speaker. I have no problem w/ buying from a foreign company but if I do I expect equal support. Bandwidth IS cheap. My cable modem can upload/download faster than the T1 I use at work (not quite as fast as the T3 to most sites) and is only $20/month including free cable channels. I have no profit with SuSE or any other distro making money but I hope they don't forget what and who is giving them something to sell. I absolutely do not think Linux distros have any right including non-free parts into their distros. I don't mean they can't include Wordperfect, demos, etc but that anything they contribute should also be open source. SuSE has done fairly well with some of their projects as have RedHat and Mandrake. Debian just rocks and Caldera just sucks. I hope SuSE can continue to offer their fine distro here in the US as it'd really be a pain to have to switch so many machines to a different distro. :) *^*^*^* Have the courage to take your own thoughts seriously, for they will shape you. -- Albert Einstein On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Michael Long wrote:

The following rant comes from a recent convert from Windoze.

SuSE puts together a software package that even a newbie can install in a relatively short period of time. I chose SuSE when looking at distributions because of the large collections of applications that it came bundled with. It is true that I can go out on the web download these programs for "free" (is bandwidth really free, not to mention the time to configure and install each package.)

SuSE makes it easier to learn linux because the more advanced skills such as using tar and rpm ... yes there are those of us out there that are that ignorant :) ... can be learned over time after the system is up and running with a web browser, email client, and word processor. Keep up the good work SuSE. If linux is going to become mainstream then training and ease of use is critical. Long live the Penquin and the Lizard.

There is nothing wrong with making a profit. After all if your household didn't make a profit how could you afford to go out to the local retaurant, movie theatre, or buy the latest piece of computer hardware :)

I do feel bad for those who have lost there jobs but usually a loss such as that can lead to bigger and better opportunities. Good Luck to all who were downsized!!

-end of rant-

Mike

...

The software that Suse distribute was 99% written by people who wrote it for free and have released it under the GPL or similar license.

You buying Suse distribution does not give anything back to them.

Suse did not create Linux/GNU. They package it and include configuration facilities that they did write (and are not GPL'ed). I am not aware of any software packages that Suse have contributed back (X11 video drivers maybe ?).

It is very sad for the Suse people who lost their jobs. This can happen to anyone working for a profit-hungry company. If this event has one beneficial side-effect it may make people realise that Suse is not the cuddly darling bunch of techno-geeks kindly contributing to world improvement that some people on this list seem to think they are.

Suse GMBH is a hard-nosed bunch of businessmen seeking to maximise bucks at minimum cost.

I sincerely hope the people that Suse have just shoved on the pavement gets jobs soon. Their technical Linux expertise should not make that difficult.

My 2 pennyworth.

Cliff

-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq

Why wasn't the PR firm spreading this news around liberally? On Thursday 08 February 2001 21:57, Philipp Thomas wrote:

* Cliff Sarginson (cliff@raggedclown.net) [20010208 11:03]:

...

Suse did not create Linux/GNU. They package it and include configuration facilities that they did write (and are not GPL'ed). I am not aware of any software packages that Suse have contributed back (X11 video drivers maybe ?).

Maybe we didn't contribute a package, but we certainly did and *do* contribute to Linux substancially in quite a few places:

- XFree86: most of the core team are employed by SuSE

- kernel: Andrea Archangeli, Andi Kleen, Jens Axboe, Karsten Keil (isdn4linux)

- glibc: many of the core developers work for SuSE (Thorsten Kukuk, Andreas Jaeger, Andreas Schwab)

- quite a few KDE developers work for SuSE

- reiserfs (Chris Mason works for SuSE)

- gcc: most of the improved support for ix86 was done by Jan Hubicka .

Add to that our work on porting Linux to AMDs upcomming x86-64 processor. This all is work the *whole* Linux community benefits from, not just SuSE customers. And that list is not complete!

...

Suse GMBH is a hard-nosed bunch of businessmen seeking to maximise bucks at minimum cost.

Beg your pardon, but it's *not*. If it would be, chances are high I'd quit. SuSE is much more than that but the salary for 600 employees has to be earned somehow. I at least am gratefull that SuSE has offered me a chance to make a living out of a hobby. And I also know few companies (German ones, of course) that would offer me the freedom I have here at SuSE.

...

I sincerely hope the people that Suse have just shoved on the pavement gets jobs soon.

Yes, that's also my hope.

Philipp

-- "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of people that these liberties are a gift of God? Thomas Jefferson - 1781

Philipp Thomas wrote:

- kernel: Andrea Archangeli, Andi Kleen, Jens Axboe, Karsten Keil (isdn4linux)

We have at least 5-8 core kernel people. For example, only today, when I used our developers to answer some question from the Oracle guys about 64bit PCI, I found out we had the main PCI guy in our ranks (in the prague office).

- glibc: many of the core developers work for SuSE (Thorsten Kukuk, Andreas Jaeger, Andreas Schwab)

- quite a few KDE developers work for SuSE

- reiserfs (Chris Mason works for SuSE)

We also paid Hans Reiser and his entire team. To work on stuff everyone gets in the end. Ok, plus many more developers, like the ALSA sound founder is in our Prague office, plus the entire joystick driver (very sophisticated!) is SuSE, plus many things that I forgot and don't care about since I only use it.

...

Suse GMBH is a hard-nosed bunch of businessmen seeking to maximise bucks at minimum cost.

Beg your pardon, but it's *not*. If it would be, chances are high I'd quit. SuSE is much more than that but the salary for 600 employees has to be earned somehow. I at least am grateful that SuSE has offered me a chance to make a living out of a hobby. And I also know few companies (German ones, of course) that would offer me the freedom I have here at SuSE.

...

I sincerely hope the people that Suse have just shoved on the pavement gets jobs soon.

Yes, that's also my hope.

Looking good.

Michael Hasenstein wrote:

Ok, plus many more developers, like the ALSA sound founder is in our Prague office,

Indeed, and when I popped up on alsa-user to try to find out why my sound card will only make sounds very quietly, I got his personal attention. Which was nice... Problem's not fixed yet though... -- Rachel