John Andersen wrote:

On Monday 26 February 2007, Jan Tiggy wrote:

...

WTF cares about what distro? We just need mashines especially laptops checked  against linux.

Exactly. If dell had to stand behind their warranty for linux they wouldn't be jamming ATI cards into the machines without dragging ATI through a knothole to get the drivers working and easy to install.

Yes, I had noticed that they were offering ATI cards and that was making me uncomfortable after hearing all of the angst about getting these to work on a linux box. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2/27/07, ken wrote:

On 02/27/2007 05:58 AM somebody named Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

John Andersen wrote:

...

On Monday 26 February 2007, Jan Tiggy wrote:

...

WTF cares about what distro? We just need mashines especially laptops checked  against linux.

Exactly. If dell had to stand behind their warranty for linux they wouldn't be jamming ATI cards into the machines without dragging ATI through a knothole to get the drivers working and easy to install.

Yes, I had noticed that they were offering ATI cards and that was making me uncomfortable after hearing all of the angst about getting these to work on a linux box.

I've been using ATI cards with Linux almost exclusively since '92 and have never had a problem any of them. (Got a Matrox card once, just to try something different.)

My last Suse install had problems recognizing my ATI card, so I had to hand-edit xorg.conf, but that's not the card's fault.

Lately I helped a friend preparing a media center. And again I was proven right to prefer nvidia. Their dirvers are much better than ATIs, and their support (forums, etc.) is much better. Their drivers are much more flexible in order to control TV output, etc. ATI are way behind. Just a personal opinion, but my luck was always better with nVidia. -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap.

Peter Bradley wrote:

Funny that. I've had no trouble installing the ATI drivers on my AMD64 x 2 SUSE 10.0 Compaq box - and I'm hopeless at these sorts of things. I just downloaded them from ATI, ran the install script, did aticonfig --initial and that was it. I've also installed quite a few updates as well. Same procedure. No problems - except the box sometimes (once a month - ish) refuses to boot to runlevel 5. I just run aticonfig --initial from the command line, let it tell me there's nothing to do, then reboot and all's well again.

If you're somehow having to reboot a linux box that often, that's not luck, that's extreme flakiness. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 07:18:29PM +0000, Peter Bradley wrote:

earlier. I had AppArmor going wild for no reason I could fathom and refusing to allow Apache to do all the things it needed to do (like access the file system). There are other, smaller, issues as well.

"Going wild"? What happened here? AppArmor hasn't shipped with an Apache profile turned on by default since 10.0; I can't recall what we did in 10.0, but that was an all-around depressing release of AppArmor. (Still based on the old Immunix business model, so it was "AppArmor lite".) If you haven't tried AppArmor since 10.0, I'd like to suggest you try it again. :) If you tried AppArmor in 10.1 or 10.2 and had problems with Apache after enabling the Apache profile (or starting your own), just run 'aa-genprof /usr/sbin/httpd2-prefork', exercise your webserver for a little while, and answer some questions. But if you could point out what happened with "going wild", it'd be nice to know. We do make mistakes. Thanks

On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 06:47:20PM +0000, Peter Bradley wrote:

Well, "going wild" may be a bit colourful :) but I somehow went from having no problem at all with Apache to having nothing but trouble - and it all turned out to be because AppArmor was (if I understand correctly how it works) denying it access to the file system. I had to use the most general glob possible in the end, because anything else fell over the next time a new, unique filename was created.

Well, hopefully you were able to find something better than /** rw, :) but yes, you have a pretty good grasp of how AppArmor works. :)

Why it should suddenly have started denying access is a complete mystery to me.

Our supplied profiles are a difficult mixture of trying to allow usual configurations to work bug-free out of the box, allowing people to make some customizations without too much trouble, and still trying to provide some level of security. It is a delicate balance, especially for something as generic as Apache. (This is one of the reasons why we moved away from turning on the Apache profile by default in future releases -- very few people leave Apache alone, so everyone's is unique, and providing any sort of meaningful security policy that fits everyone is pretty difficult.) So we provide a base one for people to copy if they wish in 10.1, 10.2, etc., and ask people to use aa-genprof or aa-logprof to customize the policy for their own use once deployed.

I'm still on 10.0. It's been so hard to get it configured how I want it that I'm a bit unwilling to upgrade - especially having seen all the problems that people have had with upgrades. I really don't want to have to do a clean install of a newer version and have to go through weeks of configuring everything (Apache, PHP, Zend IDE and Platform, MySQL + tools, etc etc).

I completely understand this sentiment. ;) I normally skip a release or two between updates, simply because I do not like to be without a usable computer for a day or two..

And please don't regard my comments as a complaint. Despite the fact that I've found 10.0 to be more flakey than any other OS I've ever installed, I still wouldn't go back to Windows. I just reckon that occasionally you have to suffer to be free :)

It's an interesting one-step-forwards, one-step-backwards, and sometimes steps to the side... Recent Linux systems seem to be flakier than the Linux I used a decade ago, but they are also far more featureful. (perhaps it is simply how I use my system that has changed.)

Now, I'm going to post this before Thunderbird crashes.

Success :) Thanks

Ysgrifennodd Hans du Plooy:

On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 19:18 +0000, Peter Bradley wrote:

...

However it has been flakey: and the once-a-month issue with the grapics card has been the least of my worries. Thunderbird regularly freezes or crashes and has to be re-started (in fact this is the second time I've written this because it just did it again). Sometimes the entire desktop locks up such that the only way to get out of the lockup is to turn off the power and reboot. Firefox crashes all the time. Updates sometimes fail - sometime leaving the desktop frozen as mentioned earlier.

I would run memtest just to make sure it isn't bad hardware - you never know.

Hans

Thanks Hans. I will be doing that, when I get the time. I'll be very upset if I find anything wrong. The machines on 6 months old. This mail comes to you after 3 Thunderbird crashes and two KDE SIGSEGs. And my desktop now does not show any wallpaper and has no icons it. I suppose they'll reappear after the next reboot. *sigh* Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Ysgrifennodd Anders Johansson:

On Sunday 04 March 2007 20:18, Peter Bradley wrote:

...

Thanks Hans. I will be doing that, when I get the time. I'll be very upset if I find anything wrong. The machines on 6 months old.

This mail comes to you after 3 Thunderbird crashes and two KDE SIGSEGs. And my desktop now does not show any wallpaper and has no icons it. I suppose they'll reappear after the next reboot.

Just out of curiosity, is this a "clean" install, or have you added internet package sources and updated things like KDE or other things?

Thanks for your interest, Anders. It's a pretty clean install. The only thing on the SuSE DVD that I've updated is, I think, MySQL because I wanted v5.x so that I could have Stored Procs (I think it was). I've updated the ATI graphics drivers two or three times; and I've installed Zend Studio and the Zend Platform, and Netbeans 5.5 and the Sun AppServer. Can't think of anything else. (And yes, the desktop came back after the next KDE crash) :/ Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Peter Bradley wrote:

Ysgrifennodd Peter Bradley:

...

Ysgrifennodd Hans du Plooy:

...

On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 19:18 +0000, Peter Bradley wrote:

...

However it has been flakey: and the once-a-month issue with the grapics card has been the least of my worries. Thunderbird regularly freezes or crashes and has to be re-started (in fact this is the second time I've written this because it just did it again). Sometimes the entire desktop locks up such that the only way to get out of the lockup is to turn off the power and reboot. Firefox crashes all the time. Updates sometimes fail - sometime leaving the desktop frozen as mentioned earlier.

I would run memtest just to make sure it isn't bad hardware - you never know.

Hans

Thanks Hans. I will be doing that, when I get the time. I'll be very upset if I find anything wrong. The machines on 6 months old.

OK. I've run memtest as one or two of you suggested. Could I now prevail on you to interpret the results for me, please?

I left memtest running all day while I was out. The following is a transcript of the screen as it appeared on my return (after nearly 12 hours). Apologies if it doesn't format correctly for you:

<transcript>

Memtest-86 v3.2 Pass 85% ###################### AMD Athlon 64 2189Mhz Test 41% ############## L1 Cache: 128 17939MB/s Test #8 [Modulo 20, ones and zeroes] L2 Cache: 512k 4274MB/s Pattern ...........

Wall Time Cached Rsvd Mem MemMap Cache ECC Test Pass Errors ECC Errs --------- ------ -------- ------ ----- --- ---- ---- ------ -------- 11:50:40 2047M 276M e820-Std on off Std 20 667 0 --------- ------ -------- ------ ----- --- ---- ---- ------ --------

Tst Pass Failing Address Good Bad Err-Bits Cont Chan --- ---- --------------- ---- --- -------- ---- ---- 6 18 0006e866f10 - 1768.3MB ffefffff ffe7ffff 00080000 1 6 18 00069f66f10 - 1695.3MB ffdfffff ffd7ffff 00080000 1 6 18 00046766f10 - 1127.3MB fbffffff fbf7ffff 00080000 1 7 18 00044866f10 - 1096.3MB d289f427 d281f427 00080000 1 7 18 0004f366f10 - 1267.3MB ffcf26bb ffc726bb 00080000 1 6 19 00044b66f10 - 1099.3MB fffffffd fff7fffd 00080000 1 6 19 00061b66f10 - 1563.3MB fffffffd fff7fffd 00080000 1 6 19 00068b66f10 - 1675.3MB fffffffd fff7fffd 00080000 1 6 19 00068c66f10 - 1676.3MB fffffffd fff7fffd 00080000 1 6 19 00045b66f10 - 1115.3MB fffffffb fff7fffb 00080000 1

</transcript>

The bottom table was coloured a frightening shade of red. Do I have a problem?

Yes, you're getting memory errors. If you've got more than one memory module, you could try changing slots, to see if the problem follows the module. If so, you've got a bad memory module. If the failures stay in the same addreses, you've got a motherboard problem. Eitherway, it's hardware. I believe you said it was a fairly new system. If so, you should be contacting the vendor for warranty repair. \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Ysgrifennodd Randall R Schulz:

[ For this kind of information, turning off line wrap when sending is advisable. ]

Thanks. I'll remember that in future.

...

The bottom table was coloured a frightening shade of red. Do I have a problem?

What do you think??

Hoping against hope, you know. :)

Yes, indeed, you have bad RAM. It's far from rare.

Did you, by any chance, tweak your RAM access parameters in the BIOS for speed purposes? If so, go back into the BIOS and let it use the RAM's SPD (Serial Presence Detect) to determine the appropriate RAM access parameters.

Heh! You're joking, Randall. Just thinking about unscrewing the case makes me go weak at the knees.

If not, you're probably just going to have to replace that RAM.

Yup. Looks like it. I think I need to give the vendors a call. The box is only 6 months old. Thanks Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Ysgrifennodd Randall R Schulz:

Peter,

Well, BIOS configuration doesn't involve internal surgery, you know. It's just more of that magical keyboard incantation stuff that programmer geeks do so well...

Hell no! I might be tempted to write the program that allows you to make the incantations, but do it myself? Way too scary. :)

So I take it you didn't build this system yourself? Replacing RAM is not that big of a deal, but if you want to take advantage of the manufacturer's warranty, then I guess it doesn't really matter.

Er, no. I didn't build it myself. I could have asked one of those nice guys in User Support if they'd mind doing it for me, but I didn't.

And James' point that the problem may be on the mainboard is a possibility, though it's an outside one, given how few addresses exhibited problems. Mainboard problems are likely to affect broad swathes of addresses based on the failure of particular address line or lines. Data-line failures would probably affect all addresses, But in either of those cases the machine probably wouldn't even pass its power-on self-test (POST).

I'm much relieved to hear that Randall. I think the obvious course is to see if I can find my receipts and stuff and then to see if I can persuade the vendors to swap the memory without hosing my entire system. You put *what* on it??? Linux???? Failing that, my son has lots of qualifications for digging around in the guts of computers. I might just buy the memory myself and offer to buy him a paternal pint if he fits it for me. It's not as if memory costs a lot these days. Watch this space. And many thanks for your help, Randall, and the rest of the list. It is appreciated. Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Ysgrifennodd Greg Freemyer:

You can get Memtest86+ for a boot floppy. That is actually how I run it most of the time.

http://www.memtest.org/#downiso (See the 6th download choice)

For windows people it makes them better understand that it is just a diagnostic tool not related at all to Linux.

Greg

Good point, Greg. Thanks. I'll do that. There's nothing like a little psychology, is there. Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Ysgrifennodd Randall R Schulz:

I think Peter was just anticipating the response of his hardware vendor.

Anyway, the SuSE installation disks include Memtest86+ as one of their boot options.

...

Greg

Yeah, I was; but there'd be no harm is saying to the vendor:

"Here's a boot CD with MemTest on it. It's like Partition Magic. It'll boot before Windows. Try it for yourself. No need to let Windows boot now, is there, when all we need to do is to run some diagnostics on the hardware?" :^D Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz wrote:

So I take it you didn't build this system yourself? Replacing RAM is not that big of a deal, but if you want to take advantage of the manufacturer's warranty, then I guess it doesn't really matter.

If it's Dell, they probably *will* ask you to open the machine up and swap modules around and such. They always have when I've called with this sort of problem. They don't seem to have a problem with end users opening the case. A word of warning: If Dell's own diagnostic program doesn't see the problem, you will have a very hard time getting them to correct it. I had a Dell laptop that crashed repeatedly in Windows XP. They kept asking me to do system restores, which didn't fix the problem. Their diagnostics didn't see anything wrong with the hardware. Eventually I found it ran fine if I removed one of the memory modules, and that the problem followed the socket, not the module. I successfully convinced them to replace the motherboard, which turned out to have a bad memory socket, but it was an uphill struggle. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 15 March 2007 12:05, Peter Bradley wrote:

...

Sorry to resurrect this thread. Just thought you might like to know that I've just got my machine back from the vendors (who've replaced the memory with not one quibble, fair play).

I'm glad it worked out.

Nothing's crashed yet. So I'm living in hope. If it goes for a week, I'll post an official apology for ever doubting my Linux installation.

Did you run Memtest86+? If not, start it up before you quit for the evening (or go to bed) and let it run until the next day. Naturally, there should be no errors if the RAM is good.

:)

Peter

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 16 March 2007 15:25, David Brodbeck wrote:

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

Did you run Memtest86+? If not, start it up before you quit for the evening (or go to bed) and let it run until the next day. Naturally, there should be no errors if the RAM is good.

I routinely do this to any new machine, or any machine I've added RAM to. So far I haven't found any bad RAM in brand new computers, but I *have* discovered bad RAM sold to me by computer stores.

Those bastards! Time to emptor their caveats!! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Ysgrifennodd Randall R Schulz:

On Friday 16 March 2007 15:25, David Brodbeck wrote:

...

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

Did you run Memtest86+? If not, start it up before you quit for the evening (or go to bed) and let it run until the next day. Naturally, there should be no errors if the RAM is good.

I routinely do this to any new machine, or any machine I've added RAM to. So far I haven't found any bad RAM in brand new computers, but I *have* discovered bad RAM sold to me by computer stores.

Those bastards!

Time to emptor their caveats!!

Well, in all fairness, they took my machine in with no quibbles and replaced the RAM without even suggesting for the tiniest moment that they might like to put Windows back on there, which I half expected they would do. I've run Memtest on it for 11 hours and 30 minutes today. No errors. So we're looking good. And I've had no crashes or other weird events either, so it's looking good for a public apology to SuSE 10.0 for ever doubting it, as well. But I'm going to give it a few more days yet. :) Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday March 22 2007 14:23, Peter Bradley wrote:

Ysgrifennodd Peter Bradley:

...

I've run Memtest on it for 11 hours and 30 minutes today. No errors. So we're looking good.

And I've had no crashes or other weird events either, so it's looking good for a public apology to SuSE 10.0 for ever doubting it, as well. But I'm going to give it a few more days yet.

:)

Peter

Time to make my apologies. SUSE Linux 10.0, how could I ever have doubted you!

Thanks to all of you who put me back on the straight and narrow.

Peter Did not see your original post so I'm not sure what was done, if anything, to correct this. When I see or hear about unexplained problems that just disappear and reappear I always suspect power. Are you on a UPS? There cheap. -- Russ Linux register user 441463 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 27 February 2007 11:03:01 am J Sloan wrote:

Peter Bradley wrote:

...

Funny that. I've had no trouble installing the ATI drivers on my AMD64 x 2 SUSE 10.0 Compaq box - and I'm hopeless at these sorts of things. I just downloaded them from ATI, ran the install script, did aticonfig --initial and that was it. I've also installed quite a few updates as well. Same procedure. No problems - except the box sometimes (once a month - ish) refuses to boot to runlevel 5. I just run aticonfig --initial from the command line, let it tell me there's nothing to do, then reboot and all's well again.

If you're somehow having to reboot a linux box that often, that's not luck, that's extreme flakiness.

Joe

I reboot my desktops every day - my laptop sometimes twice a day. Nothing wrong there. :) (I HAVE finally learned to not reboot after installing apps though...) -- kai www.perfectreign.com || www.4thedadz.com www.filesite.org || www.donutmonster.com closing the doors that surround me so no one will ever penetrate complete my retreat just to wait for the day that never comes so i will laugh alone -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

J Sloan wrote:

Your microsoft background is showing again ;)

Old school linux people don't like to reboot - I usually get 40-100 days uptime on my desktop boxes, rebooting for kernel upgrades. I'm a little more conservative on my home servers, and they routinely have 6 month uptimes. At work we tend to have the 400-600 day uptimes in the server room.

I run servers 24x7, but I shut my desktop machine down when it's not being used to conserve power. I used to rarely reboot my laptop, just suspend/resume it, but 10.2 totally broke suspend/resume so now I'm forced to actually shut it down. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen wrote:

...

I run servers 24x7, but I shut my desktop machine down when it's not being used to conserve power. I used to rarely reboot my laptop, just suspend/resume it, but 10.2 totally broke suspend/resume so now I'm forced to actually shut it down.

Well the way I look at it is any "wasted power" goes into the house as heat, which, in Seattle would be welcome.

That heat may be useful in the winter, but not in the summer. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 27 February 2007 01:13:35 pm J Sloan wrote:

Kai Ponte wrote:

...

On Tuesday 27 February 2007 11:03:01 am J Sloan wrote:

...

Peter Bradley wrote:

...

Funny that. I've had no trouble installing the ATI drivers on my AMD64 x 2 SUSE 10.0 Compaq box - and I'm hopeless at these sorts of things. I just downloaded them from ATI, ran the install script, did aticonfig --initial and that was it. I've also installed quite a few updates as well. Same procedure. No problems - except the box sometimes (once a month - ish) refuses to boot to runlevel 5. I just run aticonfig --initial from the command line, let it tell me there's nothing to do, then reboot and all's well again.

If you're somehow having to reboot a linux box that often, that's not luck, that's extreme flakiness.

Joe

I reboot my desktops every day - my laptop sometimes twice a day. Nothing wrong there. :)

Your microsoft background is showing again ;)

LOL! Well, you know those legacy OS's like Windows. They just stick around. At least I don't tell the mainframe guys to IPL every day. :P

Old school linux people don't like to reboot - I usually get 40-100 days uptime on my desktop boxes, rebooting for kernel upgrades. I'm a little more conservative on my home servers, and they routinely have 6 month uptimes. At work we tend to have the 400-600 day uptimes in the server room.

On servers I would do that. My desktops and laptops at home only are on when I'm actually using them - which is the evenings. I power them down otherwise. -- kai Free Compean and Ramos http://www.perfectreign.com/?q=node/46 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen wrote:

Ah, Peter, I hate to break it to ya, but that process constitutes a problem. It shouldn't be necessary, and its not with any card but ATI and Nvidia.

Unfortunately it's sort of the price you have to pay if you want decent 3D performance. ATI and NVIDIA have a good thing going with their 3D support, and they're understandably reluctant to release the trade secrets of how they do what they do. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen wrote:

Nor is anybody asking them to. All they need to do is put their "secrets" on the chips and keep their drivers free of patented or secret code.

The insistence on moving most of their copyrighted/patented property indo binary driver blobs is what gets them in trouble.

Yet few people object (that I've heard) to copyright firmware being uploaded to devices, e.g. in Hauppage's dec-2000t. How is this different? I wonder what stops nv/ati from providing a GPL driver that just does an upload of copyright/patented firmware (freely available for download) providing the required APIs? Perhaps the issues are more complex than just that. Or perhaps there is an effort to get the OSS community to refuse superior technology on the basis of "principle" when none has been violated in any exceptional way? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 02/26/2007 10:08 PM somebody named John Andersen wrote:

On Monday 26 February 2007, Jan Tiggy wrote:

...

WTF cares about what distro? We just need mashines especially laptops checked against linux.

Exactly. If dell had to stand behind their warranty for linux they wouldn't be jamming ATI cards into the machines without dragging ATI through a knothole to get the drivers working and easy to install.

Someone like Dell does not have to worry about whether the driver is opensource or not. As a system integrator they can install linux and then ADD the non-oss drivers and packages to their hearts content.

One problem I generally have when I buy a machine is, if something is wrong with the hardware within the warrantee period, the tech help won't help you if you don't run Windows to help them diagnose the problem. That's 90% of the reason I dual-boot. If Dell sells a machine with Linux pre-installed, it means that I can call their tech support without have to boot into Windows... and I won't need Windows (probably... hopefully). My hard drive space will immediately go up by a third and my machine instantly become more secure. All Good Things(R). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 27 February 2007, John Andersen wrote:

On Tuesday 27 February 2007, ken wrote:

...

One problem I generally have when I buy a machine is, if something is wrong with the hardware within the warrantee period, the tech help won't help you if you don't run Windows to help them diagnose the problem.

Well I'm certain that policy would prevail if you purchased it preloaded with Linux.

(ooops, forgot the sarcasm tag) -- _____________________________________ John Andersen