Re: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

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Mark Hellman

17 Feb 2006 17 Feb '06

12:04

Having the information available buried in the archives of the mailing list which doesn't have a search function is not exactly helpful for casual users

That is a big problem that OpenSUSE people refuse to understand. 1. The mailing-lists run on obsolete software (ezmlm). Mailman is much more featureful and user-friendly. 2. It is odd to run the mailing-lists on software that OpenSUSE does not even include on its distribution! 3. The best way to read many mailing-lists without having to download thousands of emails every day is to use the Gmane NNTP<->Mailing-Lists gateway (http://www.gmane.org). And since Gmane has its own search engine, OpenSUSE wouldn't need to worry in implementing it. But for Gmane to make real sense, a mailing-list subscriber must be able to disable mail delivery. And this NOT possible with ezmlm. Despite all this, OpenSUSE insists on using ezmlm. Why? Mark -- ___________________________________________________ Play 100s of games for FREE! http://games.mail.com/

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Marcus Meissner

17 Feb 17 Feb

12:09

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 12:04:27PM +0000, Mark Hellman wrote:

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Having the information available buried in the archives of the mailing list which doesn't have a search function is not exactly helpful for casual users

That is a big problem that OpenSUSE people refuse to understand.

1. The mailing-lists run on obsolete software (ezmlm). Mailman is much more featureful and user-friendly.

2. It is odd to run the mailing-lists on software that OpenSUSE does not even include on its distribution!

3. The best way to read many mailing-lists without having to download thousands of emails every day is to use the Gmane NNTP<->Mailing-Lists gateway (http://www.gmane.org). And since Gmane has its own search engine, OpenSUSE wouldn't need to worry in implementing it. But for Gmane to make real sense, a mailing-list subscriber must be able to disable mail delivery. And this NOT possible with ezmlm.

Despite all this, OpenSUSE insists on using ezmlm. Why?

You should read the notes from the status update meetings... A migration to mlmmj is planned. Ciao, Marcus

Marcus Rueckert

12:15

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

On 2006-02-17 13:09:28 +0100, Marcus Meissner wrote:

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You should read the notes from the status update meetings...

A migration to mlmmj is planned.

work in progress. henne is beyond the planning state. :) darix -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org

Marcus Rueckert

12:14

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

On 2006-02-17 12:04:27 +0000, Mark Hellman wrote:

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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:04:27 +0000 From: Mark Hellman Subject: Re: [opensuse] Communication, News etc. To: opensuse@opensuse.org

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Having the information available buried in the archives of the mailing list which doesn't have a search function is not exactly helpful for casual users

That is a big problem that OpenSUSE people refuse to understand.

1. The mailing-lists run on obsolete software (ezmlm). Mailman is much more featureful and user-friendly.

i dont think you need all the features of mailman.

...

2. It is odd to run the mailing-lists on software that OpenSUSE does not even include on its distribution!

henne is working on the migration of the list to a software which is included on the distro: mlmmj

...

3. The best way to read many mailing-lists without having to download thousands of emails every day is to use the Gmane NNTP<->Mailing-Lists gateway (http://www.gmane.org). And since Gmane has its own search engine, OpenSUSE wouldn't need to worry in implementing it. But for Gmane to make real sense, a mailing-list subscriber must be able to disable mail delivery. And this NOT possible with ezmlm.

mlmmj allows no mail delivery subscription.

...

Despite all this, OpenSUSE insists on using ezmlm. Why?

noone thought on changing it so far? ezml was running fine for years. now it is moved to mlmmj. so noone really insists on using ezml. hope this helps darix -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org

Henne Vogelsang

12:40

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

Hi, sorry but i _have_ to bash you :) On Friday, February 17, 2006 at 12:04:27, Mark Hellman wrote:

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Having the information available buried in the archives of the mailing list which doesn't have a search function is not exactly helpful for casual users

That is a big problem that OpenSUSE people refuse to understand.

1. The mailing-lists run on obsolete software (ezmlm). Mailman is much more featureful and user-friendly.

Heh. Did you ever administer a mailinglist with more then 10 users? Did you ever administer a mailinglist server with more then 2 mailinglists? :) We do. Since 1997 we run this service to our community. Since 1997 we are VERP-DoSing mail servers all over the world and provide the most kick ass return times. Since 1997 we are running one of the biggest mailinglist servers that exists in the internet. Since quite some time we host two of the biggest mailinglists that exist in the opensource community. Even occasionally beating lkml in terms of posts and users. Sorry but mailman sucks big time in terms of configuration, administration and most of all delivery speed. ezmlm and qmail are not obsolete!

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2. It is odd to run the mailing-lists on software that OpenSUSE does not even include on its distribution!

Why would that be odd? The only odd thing is that we have to care about software maintenance ourselfs. We did for the last 9 years very well.

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3. The best way to read many mailing-lists without having to download thousands of emails every day is to use the Gmane NNTP<->Mailing-Lists gateway (http://www.gmane.org). And since Gmane has its own search engine, OpenSUSE wouldn't need to worry in implementing it. But for Gmane to make real sense, a mailing-list subscriber must be able to disable mail delivery. And this NOT possible with ezmlm.

Of course this is possible with ezmlm. Its not possible with our configuration of ezmlm. This will change with the new lists server.

...

Despite all this, OpenSUSE insists on using ezmlm. Why?

And now let me shock you. We are going to switch! To mailman? Hell no! To mlmmj and postfix (oh btw both are included in SUSE Linux). Why do we do that? Not because ezmlm+qmail is bad but because mlmmmj+postfix is even better and we need to redesign the list server and the list layout anyway to be prepared for the next 9 years of mailserver-DoSing service! :) </proud-of-what-we-did-and-do-flame> Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, Core Services "Rules change. The Game remains the same." - Omar (The Wire)

Kevin Donnelly

13:41

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

On Friday 17 February 2006 12:40, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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And now let me shock you. We are going to switch! To mailman? Hell no!

LOL - I liked this post! -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD

houghi

14:06

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 01:40:42PM +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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1. The mailing-lists run on obsolete software (ezmlm). Mailman is much more featureful and user-friendly.

Heh. Did you ever administer a mailinglist with more then 10 users? Did you ever administer a mailinglist server with more then 2 mailinglists? :)

Yet he has a point. Mailman has a nice webinterface to subscribe, unsubscribe and put it on hold when you are on a holiday. Especialy that last one can be very handy on busy mailinglists. Yes, this can be done with sending mails. A webinterface however is more user-friendly. No idea if this could be done now in an easy way with the usage of your wiki login and password or the bugzilla login and password. Oh and others HAVE used mailman on more then one list with more then 10 users. I believe you must be familiar with KDE: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo houghi -- Nutze die zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Wert und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das tun. Johannes Müller-Elmau

Henne Vogelsang

14:26

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

Hi, On Friday, February 17, 2006 at 15:06:09, houghi wrote:

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On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 01:40:42PM +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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1. The mailing-lists run on obsolete software (ezmlm). Mailman is much more featureful and user-friendly.

Heh. Did you ever administer a mailinglist with more then 10 users? Did you ever administer a mailinglist server with more then 2 mailinglists? :)

Yet he has a point. Mailman has a nice webinterface to subscribe, unsubscribe and put it on hold when you are on a holiday.

Which makes little sense at all. You put your email address into the webinterface to get a confirmation request over mail. Why anyone would use a webinterface to deal with mailinglists anyway is beyond me.

...

Especialy that last one can be very handy on busy mailinglists. Yes, this can be done with sending mails. A webinterface however is more user-friendly.

A webinterface like this can be implemented by simple input boxes. Like we did here http://www.suse.com/us/private/support/online_help/mailinglists/ But thats purely optional for the little amount of mailinglist users that want to have a webinterface.

...

Oh and others HAVE used mailman on more then one list with more then 10 users. I believe you must be familiar with KDE: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo

Sure. Sourceforge as well. Now go talk to them how heavily they had to hack mailman to get a service as good as qmail+ezmlm/postfix+mlmmj can provide :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, Core Services "Rules change. The Game remains the same." - Omar (The Wire)

houghi

14:58

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 03:26:44PM +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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Which makes little sense at all. You put your email address into the webinterface to get a confirmation request over mail. Why anyone would use a webinterface to deal with mailinglists anyway is beyond me.

It does not have to make sence to you, it has to make sence to the people using it. ;-)

...

...
Especialy that last one can be very handy on busy mailinglists. Yes, this can be done with sending mails. A webinterface however is more user-friendly.

A webinterface like this can be implemented by simple input boxes. Like we did here

http://www.suse.com/us/private/support/online_help/mailinglists/

That is only for the subscribe part. I realy like the fact that you get a 'personal space' where you can change settinings.

...

But thats purely optional for the little amount of mailinglist users that want to have a webinterface.

How many are there? I would be very much in favour of a userinterface like Mailman has. especially the temporay stop is something I would find handy. houghi -- Nutze die zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Wert und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das tun. Johannes Müller-Elmau

Henne Vogelsang

16:05

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

Hi, On Friday, February 17, 2006 at 15:58:12, houghi wrote:

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On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 03:26:44PM +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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Which makes little sense at all. You put your email address into the webinterface to get a confirmation request over mail. Why anyone would use a webinterface to deal with mailinglists anyway is beyond me.

It does not have to make sence to you, it has to make sence to the people using it. ;-)

Im default list-owner/part of ml-admin for some years now. Ive got maybe 5 requests for a webinterface to manage subscriptions. So my users dont want a webinterface. Quite the converse, i think it helped building the high quality lists that we have today that there isnt a webinterface. And maybe i does not have to make sense to me but i have to administrate it.

...

...
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Especialy that last one can be very handy on busy mailinglists. Yes, this can be done with sending mails. A webinterface however is more user-friendly.

A webinterface like this can be implemented by simple input boxes. Like we did here

http://www.suse.com/us/private/support/online_help/mailinglists/

That is only for the subscribe part. I realy like the fact that you get a 'personal space' where you can change settinings.

This can be done also with some simple php/perl scripts. You wont (and dont want to) get around the confirmation mail.

...

Especially the temporay stop is something I would find handy.

Call it what you want but that is just a unsubscribe when you dont want mails and a subscribe when you want them again. You gain nothing with it: temporay stop == {start temporay stop,stop temporay stop} reality == {unsubscribe,subscribe} Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, Core Services "Rules change. The Game remains the same." - Omar (The Wire)

houghi

16:32

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 05:05:46PM +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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That is only for the subscribe part. I realy like the fact that you get a 'personal space' where you can change settinings.

This can be done also with some simple php/perl scripts. You wont (and dont want to) get around the confirmation mail.

So when will the page be up. ;-) Don't get me wrong. It is something I would like, not someting I must have.

...

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Especially the temporay stop is something I would find handy.

Call it what you want but that is just a unsubscribe when you dont want mails and a subscribe when you want them again. You gain nothing with it:

temporay stop == {start temporay stop,stop temporay stop} reality == {unsubscribe,subscribe}

I still like it via a webinterface. That is the nice part of just being a user, I don't have to care how it works. :-D houghi -- Nutze die zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Wert und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das tun. Johannes Müller-Elmau

Henne Vogelsang

16:35

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

Hi, On Friday, February 17, 2006 at 17:32:25, houghi wrote:

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On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 05:05:46PM +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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...
That is only for the subscribe part. I realy like the fact that you get a 'personal space' where you can change settinings.

This can be done also with some simple php/perl scripts. You wont (and dont want to) get around the confirmation mail.

So when will the page be up. ;-)

As soon as _you_ hacked it together :)

...

Don't get me wrong. It is something I would like, not someting I must have.

We are on the same page then!

...

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...
Especially the temporay stop is something I would find handy.

Call it what you want but that is just a unsubscribe when you dont want mails and a subscribe when you want them again. You gain nothing with it:

temporay stop == {start temporay stop,stop temporay stop} reality == {unsubscribe,subscribe}

I still like it via a webinterface. That is the nice part of just being a user, I don't have to care how it works. :-D

But now you know how to implement it in houghi-subscription-webinterface 1.0 :P Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, Core Services "Rules change. The Game remains the same." - Omar (The Wire)

Christoph Thiel

16:39

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

On Fri, 17 Feb 2006, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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I still like it via a webinterface. That is the nice part of just being a user, I don't have to care how it works. :-D

But now you know how to implement it in houghi-subscription-webinterface 1.0 :P

As always, there is no need to reinvent the wheel (at least not completely): Have a look at the contrib directory of mlmmj [http://mlmmj.mmj.dk/]. It already has a basic web interface (in both perl and php) ready-to-go. Improvements are always welcome! Regards Christoph

Henne Vogelsang

16:43

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

Hi, On Friday, February 17, 2006 at 17:39:43, Christoph Thiel wrote:

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On Fri, 17 Feb 2006, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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I still like it via a webinterface. That is the nice part of just being a user, I don't have to care how it works. :-D

But now you know how to implement it in houghi-subscription-webinterface 1.0 :P

As always, there is no need to reinvent the wheel (at least not completely): Have a look at the contrib directory of mlmmj [http://mlmmj.mmj.dk/]. It already has a basic web interface (in both perl and php) ready-to-go. Improvements are always welcome!

Hehe cthiels famous 140 lines of php 8) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, Core Services "Rules change. The Game remains the same." - Omar (The Wire)

Christoph Thiel

16:48

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

On Fri, 17 Feb 2006, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

...
...
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I still like it via a webinterface. That is the nice part of just being a user, I don't have to care how it works. :-D

But now you know how to implement it in houghi-subscription-webinterface 1.0 :P

As always, there is no need to reinvent the wheel (at least not completely): Have a look at the contrib directory of mlmmj [http://mlmmj.mmj.dk/]. It already has a basic web interface (in both perl and php) ready-to-go. Improvements are always welcome!

Hehe cthiels famous 140 lines of php 8)

I guess I should redo it in ruby one day ;) Regards Christoph

Marcus Rueckert

17:24

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

On 2006-02-17 17:48:49 +0100, Christoph Thiel wrote:

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I guess I should redo it in ruby one day ;)

very good decision. for fosdem? ;) darix -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org

houghi

18:01

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 05:35:29PM +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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Hi,

On Friday, February 17, 2006 at 17:32:25, houghi wrote:

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On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 05:05:46PM +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...
...
That is only for the subscribe part. I realy like the fact that you get a 'personal space' where you can change settinings.

This can be done also with some simple php/perl scripts. You wont (and dont want to) get around the confirmation mail.

So when will the page be up. ;-)

As soon as _you_ hacked it together :)

No problem. What is the login and password I can use to access lists.opensuse.org? (And WHO made that thing in the red? It hurts my eyes. The links points to a non-existing page, by the way. houghi -- Nutze die zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Wert und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das tun. Johannes Müller-Elmau

David Wright

18:16

New subject: [opensuse] Communication, News etc.

Am Freitag, 17. Februar 2006 17:05 schrieb Henne Vogelsang:

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Hi,

On Friday, February 17, 2006 at 15:58:12, houghi wrote: <snip>

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Especially the temporay stop is something I would find handy.

Call it what you want but that is just a unsubscribe when you dont want mails and a subscribe when you want them again. You gain nothing with it:

temporay stop == {start temporay stop,stop temporay stop} reality == {unsubscribe,subscribe}

Henne

I think it is more a physchological thing, some people feel more comfortable "suspending" their membership rather than quiting and re-joining; you get this with clubs all the time, length of membership counts for status and somebody who has been a member since 1990 looks better than I originally joined in 1990, quit in 1999, rejoined in 2002... They have "continuous" membership for over 15 years, instead of broken membership of around 12 years. As I say, I think it is purely psychological, they still feel part of the community, even when they suspend their lists while on holiday, whilst quiting the list, is well, quiting... It doesn't matter whether the list actually deletes and the re-inserts your membership in the list, the user himself "feels" he has only paused the receiving of mails. (Man, I've been living in Germany too long, had to get my dictionary out look up what "es ist Egal" means in English! :-P) Dave

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participants (8)

Christoph Thiel
David Wright
Henne Vogelsang
houghi
Kevin Donnelly
Marcus Meissner
Marcus Rueckert
Mark Hellman