Re : [opensuse] PHP4 and 10.1
Do any packages of php4 exist for 10.1?
Nop, hopefully
This means that 10.1 is not a compelling web-development platform
A compelling web platform must run supported software. get this into your head **PHP4 is dead**.
- a huge number of "standard" web-hosters are still using PHP4,
sure, you get what you pay for ;P
Does anyone have any suggestions on a way around this (apart from "compile it yourself"!),
or is the only answer to stay on 10.0 for work like this?
no, the answer is that PHP4 is obsolete, must not be used. feel free to package it yourself, i won't. sorry ( and I do know how, that 's the reason why I don't :) ) . and it will be back into the distribution over my dead smoking body ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 02:21:51PM +0000, Marcus wrote:
Even php5 will soon be obsoleted by php6 by upstream PHP development.
yes, we will have php6 snapshots available very soon on the buildservice, at least for command line and fastcgi, apache2 module is not updated yet. first preview release ( an alpha) will be availbale on Q1 2007. (AFAIK) PHP4 is unlikely to get the needed attention after that.
On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 02:21:51PM +0000, Kevin Donnelly wrote: I understand that, and of course we all like to have cutting-edge options available to us.
PHP5 ain't cutting edge, it is stable since more than two years.
I think that is an extremely strange decision,
that sentence clearly demostrate you don't understand the problem. anyway... Fedora only includes php5 since FC4 (IIRC) Ubuntu , RHEL5, SLES10 ships only PHP5.. in less than 6 months there will be no distribution shipping it (hopefully)
On 2006-11-24 11:36:04 +0000, Michal Marek wrote: The sad part of the story is that people who are able to "compile it themselves" don't seem to need php4.
No I don't. :) and I don't want to spend, my (limited) free time, providing the users tools to shoot themselfs in the foot, and a package that has: 1. gazillions of dirty hacks to make it build on 64bit systems (and that works there in 64bit because god help us only) 2. No active development, only very critical bugs gets fixed. 3. dozens of known bugs that will never get fixed. The same users, then, will perform the usual rants that PHP sucks, it is insecure and blablabla... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 25 November 2006 01:20, Cristian Rodriguez wrote:
On Fri, Nov 24, 2006 at 02:21:51PM +0000, Kevin Donnelly wrote: I understand that, and of course we all like to have cutting-edge options available to us.
PHP5 ain't cutting edge, it is stable since more than two years.
I was referring to PHP6 - weren't you?
I think that is an extremely strange decision,
that sentence clearly demostrate you don't understand the problem. anyway... Fedora only includes php5 since FC4 (IIRC) Ubuntu , RHEL5, SLES10 ships only PHP5.. in less than 6 months there will be no distribution shipping it (hopefully)
Then presumably *no-one* using the main Linux distros will be able to design sites for customers using hosters still on PHP4 without a lot of needless hassle. I feel happy that I am in such august and universal company, but that isn't the point. Until the bulk of lower-tier hosters have moved to PHP5 or PHP6 (you might like to do a bit of scouting around to see just how few have moved so far even to PHP5), it is (and I say it again) "an extremely strange decision" to say that developers working for customers that use such hosters are to be cut adrift. You may be in the luxurious position of telling a client to move hosters and he does it forthwith, no matter what the impact, but many small businesses will only do so if they are forced to, no matter how much better off someone tells them they would be, and especially if they feel there is going to be uncertainty associated with it (eg issues with email, etc). Note that I'm not suggesting PHP5 (or even PHP6) should not be supplied, just that PHP4 should be available for some time yet - both versions of Apache were provided for a couple of years, for example.
On 2006-11-24 11:36:04 +0000, Michal Marek wrote: The sad part of the story is that people who are able to "compile it themselves" don't seem to need php4.
No I don't. :) and I don't want to spend, my (limited) free time, providing the users tools to shoot themselfs in the foot, and a package that has: 1. gazillions of dirty hacks to make it build on 64bit systems (and that works there in 64bit because god help us only) 2. No active development, only very critical bugs gets fixed. 3. dozens of known bugs that will never get fixed. The same users, then, will perform the usual rants that PHP sucks, it is insecure and blablabla...
And these customers I'm talking about would be expected to be worried about it not building on 64-bit systems? The security problems are significant, I know (although they can be worked around), but how exactly is saying that PHP4 is so insecure that no-one should ever use it under *any* circumstances going to help the image of PHP6 (when it appears)? I have no objection at all to those who are leading us all into a bright new future trying to be engines of change - the change to utf8 by most distros was a very helpful development, for instance. Just don't assume that these changes will apply universally, or apply overnight. There's no point having the best development environment ever in Linux if we can't actually use it for practical things in the real world where most customers are living (you know, the one where people think of computers as a means rather than an end?). -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 25 November 2006 00:26, Cristian Rodriguez wrote:
A compelling web platform must run supported software. get this into your head **PHP4 is dead**.
Terrifyingly, the headless body is still blundering around in webland, causing havoc. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but a "compelling web platform" is one that allows you to build what the customer asks you to build - nothing more, nothing less. It may not be pretty, but there we are.
- a huge number of "standard" web-hosters are still using PHP4,
sure, you get what you pay for ;P
Cristian, I'm not paying for it - the customers are. Who are you or I to decry people's decisions - we don't know on what basis they arrived at that decision. Do you never use something that you know will only last a year, but is so priced that it still represents good value for money? Presumably you don't - what a lucky (young?) fellow!
no, the answer is that PHP4 is obsolete, must not be used.
Well, you better start sending emails right now to all those web-hosters who are still offering it. :-)
feel free to package it yourself, i won't. sorry ( and I do know how, that 's the reason why I don't :) ) . and it will be back into the distribution over my dead smoking body ;-)
Now you're getting melodramatic ... -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Then presumably *no-one* using the main Linux distros will be able to design sites for customers using hosters still on PHP4 without a lot of needless hassle.
migration to PHP5 for the large part of applications out there is very simple.
I feel happy that I am in such august and universal company, but that isn't the point. Until the bulk of lower-tier hosters have moved to PHP5 or PHP6 (you might like to do a bit of scouting around to see just how few have moved so far even to PHP5),
this is caused by a chicken and egg problem... if we provide both PHP4 and 5 , peeple will stay in php4 and we will have to support it and theyu will not move...
You may be in the luxurious position of telling a client to move hosters
Kinda, telling customers to get a decent hosting platform.
but how exactly is saying that PHP4 is so insecure that no-one should ever use it under *any* circumstances going to help the image of PHP6 (when it appears)?
PHP6 does not have the key insecure features like register_globals, magic_quotes, safe_mode.. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
no, the answer is that PHP4 is obsolete, must not be used.
Well, you better start sending emails right now to all those web-hosters who are still offering it. :-)
Well, We are not webhosters, we produce an stable linux distribution, and as you can see, those who decide what suse contains, seems to agree with me on this topic, that's why since 10.1 there is no ( and will not be) PHP4 anymore. Again, if you are interested you can join the buildservice and create a package yourself but you have to consult /dev/urandom in case of problems, I mantain most of the php stuff there and Im unwilling to work on this ,for a very large list of technical reasons. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 25 November 2006 11:41, Cristian Rodriguez wrote:
no, the answer is that PHP4 is obsolete, must not be used.
Well, you better start sending emails right now to all those web-hosters who are still offering it. :-)
Well, We are not webhosters, we produce an stable linux distribution, and as you can see, those who decide what suse contains, seems to agree with me on this topic, that's why since 10.1 there is no ( and will not be) PHP4 anymore.
Note the previous postings referring to something called "the real world". I have clients who still run apps on Win95 platforms because they a) work and b) they are cheap, i.e. they have paid for themselves many times over. Requiring a client to fork over money for an upgrade had better be accompanied by more than a "we don't make that any more" or you will see their backsides disappearing into the doorway of a competitor faster than a chicken in Ethiopia. I have always been amused by the fact that there are so many in the developer community that I refer to as "brilliant but unstable" (also "highly educated idiots") for their ability to come up with answers to questions that clients are not asking. They can design the latest handheld gadget that will do everything but wipe your ass but can't understand the first thing about running a business. I guess that's why there will always be techies and the pointy-haired managers that use them. Fred -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 25 November 2006 17:26, Cristian Rodriguez wrote:
migration to PHP5 for the large part of applications out there is very simple.
You're saying it's too much hassle for the distro to make a PHP4 package available, but simple for small developers to start one-off migrations of various applications like CMS, webmail, etc? Hmm - a novel view, but not an entirely logical one.
this is caused by a chicken and egg problem... if we provide both PHP4 and 5 , peeple will stay in php4 and we will have to support it and theyu will not move...
Again, Cristian, you have this the wrong way up. Do you seriously think any of these lower-tier hosters give a fiddler's toss about what SUSE puts in its distro - "gee, guys, SUSE has stopped supporting PHP4 - let's rip out all our systems and upgrade straight away; and we'd better do it quick because they'll be moving to PHP6 two releases from now". Get real - this is an installed base, and it's not going to change overnight. If you don't see the logic here, I'm actually somewhat worried to hear that you're working for SUSE. :-) In any case, I didn't suggest that you needed to have it fully supported - something along the lines Michal suggested, of having packages available, would be quite OK. That means we can deal with PHP4 stuff if we need to, for as long as it is in the system out there.
You may be in the luxurious position of telling a client to move hosters
Kinda, telling customers to get a decent hosting platform.
Hmm - I rest my case. My saying that the earth is flat will not make it so.
Well, you better start sending emails right now to all those web-hosters who are still offering it. :-)
Well, We are not webhosters, we produce an stable linux distribution, and as you can see, those who decide what suse contains, seems to agree with me on this topic, that's why since 10.1 there is no ( and will not be) PHP4 anymore.
As I said, it's entirely up to SUSE to decide what to put in their distro. However, much as we'd like to, we can't all be members of cutting-edge teams in large enterprises. Maybe SUSE is in truth only interested in these, but as I said in my OP, in that case it would be nice to have it spelt out somewhere - things like this are far more important criteria for deciding on distros than the recent Microsoft flap, IMO.
Again, if you are interested you can join the buildservice and create a package yourself but you have to consult /dev/urandom in case of problems, I mantain most of the php stuff there and Im unwilling to work on this ,for a very large list of technical reasons.
Well, I did send an email enquiring about an account some time ago, but got no reply. :-) Anyway, there's no point having this take up any more bytes on the list - I've raised a request, and if it's been logged it's up to SUSE how it's dealt with. End of thread. But please remember, in the midst of your (very highly-appreciated, I might add) work on developing SUSE, that a lot of us are trying to *use* that platform in the real world, where things may be messier than we'd like them to be. -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Stevens wrote:
I have always been amused by the fact that there are so many in the developer community that I refer to as "brilliant but unstable" (also "highly educated idiots")
Uh, pardon? We _do_ ship php4 with SUSE Linux 10.0, which is going be supported for about a year from now on. If you want even longer support, look at sles9. What we don't support is running an obsolete php version on the newest SUSE Linux / OpenSUSE version, but I offer to provide unofficial builds via the Build Service (see my mail above). Despite of this, you call us "idiots". Thank you! :-/ Michal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 28 November 2006 14:07, Michal Marek wrote:
What we don't support is running an obsolete php version on the newest SUSE Linux / OpenSUSE version, but I offer to provide unofficial builds via the Build Service (see my mail above)
And as I said, I appreciate this. The post you're referring to was in response to one by Cristian which was less measured than yours, and the poster was referring to a state of mind rather than to individuals. I'm sure we can leave PHP4 in your capable hands! -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (4)
-
Cristian Rodriguez -
Kevin Donnelly -
Michal Marek -
Stevens