[opensuse] Wiki as foundation of a community
Back in the day, when I was still someone not entirely lost in the world, I remember having had a personal wiki page on the OpenSUSE wiki. I had collected some information that was relevant to me and created a personal page, then linked to it from a community page on the same subject, more or less. Today, really, when I go to the wiki it doesn't seem inviting to me. It seems badly organized or in any case doesn't invite reading. I'm sure a lot of work has gone into it and there is probably a wealth of information contained in these pages. But it seems too BIG to find your way there. I do not know why. Not straight away. In this mailing list, the wiki is also never mentioned or linked to, as far as I can tell. A wiki usually is a place where there's room for individuality. A good wiki invites users to make their own custom personal pages. If a wiki is just used as "official documentation" then its maintainers are also people in "official positions". But that doesn't create community. Back in the day, the first internet community in the Netherlands was the /Digital City of Amsterdam/. Under the dds.nl domain, which still operates, but no longer as the same thing, people created houses as part of squares, streets, etc. I never much participated but they also had the first chat rooms in the new internet era that they called "metros" which were refreshing HTML pages. It was a pretty vibrant community back then. But such a thing functions because people /can do their own thing/. It doesn't seem the same is true of OpenSUSE today. [( Back then I posted some inflammatory opinions on the topic of mp3/dvd codecs being supplied, and the lack of it making life really hard. But it was on my personal page. I am still of the same opinion. People came in though and tried to "make me see the light". I budged, and removed some of the language. Still, I had a place, and there was a way for me to "contribute". )]. Today there seems to be very little room for personal contribution. Usually people want you to do some kind of work in some kind of official capacity. When back in the day I was a frequent visitor of that wiki, today I don't care for it at all. And it is not because I have changed. I am still the same person. We seem to be living in a different world. So a wiki needs to be a bit messy. The way a real neighbourhood is messy. It can't be perfectly aligned and organized because that means the barrier to entry becomes really high. The pages can't reside /too deep/ and I think this is the case today a bit, I believe. The wiki is also just a tiny link at the bottom of a very commercial front page. A front page the likes of many front pages these days that seem only to be intended for tablet viewing. They are horrible to use on a real computer. These modern day webpages, and their layout, with the BIG IMAGES and the BIG TEXT and you have to SCROLL THE ENTIRE PAGE just to see the NEXT LINE OF TEXt and it is just a flawed concept. It is a broken concept. It doesn't work. It is pretty but it doesn't work. It is not a website for people to feel at home in. It is really a front page that scares you away: YOU DO NOT WANT TO REVISIT THAT PAGE if you don't have to. There is probably a lot of blabla going on in the design community as to how wonderful they are, but yeah. I am saying we have seen a deteroriation compared to what we had in the past. It is 80% regression and 20% progress. The front page scares you away, and the wiki is not inviting. That is two main elements of an internet community. The forums do not really foster community, they are also tightly controlled with a certain marketing goal in mind. I was more content with OpenSUSE in the past. Maybe 5x more. Ubuntu.com also has a front page like that, better or more usable than OpenSUSE's, but it still communicates right away: this is NOT a community site where you have your own account. "Community" is a TINY link and when you click on it you see a big crowd but it definitely doesn't feel as a place to feel at home in. It scares people off and doesn't invite them in. And I am wondering here how many of you have the same feeling? *I* for the life of me cannot change a thing like that. I had no part in its construction, and I could never improve any of it; it is way beyond my control. 'Reading someone else's code is a horror anyway, and improving someone else's product is not a lot of fun'. But certainly what I say today must not come as a suprise, or come across as something alien to more people here? Does this resonate with anyone? Regards, Xen. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 28/12/2015 06:11, Xen a écrit :
Back in the day, when I was still someone not entirely lost in the world, I remember having had a personal wiki page on the OpenSUSE wiki.
first of all, thanks opening this thread. Looks like the wiki is deprecated (given the place of the link on the main page), but it should not. Richard said that now the wiki is more opened, that is -if I get it well- mean that the necessity of peer review before publication is removed and it's a good thing. The priority have to be the information, not the structure. This don't mean that the structure is unimportant, but we can promote the "recent change" link to ask old timers to fix new pages problems. I access the wiki mostly with google search, adding simply "opensuse" on the search content. Many wiki pages are extremely well done, but also many needs updating after each new distro, specially now for Leap.
But it seems too BIG to find your way there. I do not know why.
two ways: search with google (or any other search engine), or work to make it better (like with this thread :-)
A wiki usually is a place where there's room for individuality. A good wiki invites users to make their own custom personal pages.
I didn't understand you previous sentence. I have my personal page https://en.opensuse.org/User:Jdd always the same one since the beginning
If a wiki is just used as "official documentation" then its maintainers are also people in "official positions". But that doesn't create community.
There is an history around this. In short the wiki was free access and, I admit, a mess. It was decided to make it wikipedia like. I was against this decision because the wiki team was too small, and began to remove the old wiki as first move. It's veru easy to organize a wiki without removing anything, it's the very nature of a wiki, and by this move all the previous links to the wiki where lost. Finally the old wiki was kept, but with different address. After that I had to copy all he pages I wrote and where relevant to me to my own wiki on my own server because I read mostly for my own use, trying to make it useful also for others (as most people do) and I need permanence But recently Richard said the wiki is again free, and I encourage again people to use it. If a page is much too bad, correct it. If you want to change name, make a copy and link the new page to the new (and vice versa).
But such a thing functions because people /can do their own thing/.
It doesn't seem the same is true of OpenSUSE today.
[( Back then I posted some inflammatory opinions on the topic of mp3/dvd (...) some of the language. Still, I had a place, and there was a way for me to "contribute". )].
if any thing engage legally openSUSE at risk, it may have to be removed
It is pretty but it doesn't work. It is not a website for people to feel at home in. It is really a front page that scares you away: YOU DO NOT WANT TO REVISIT THAT PAGE if you don't have to.
I mostly agree with you, but don't think it's so important. See my own front page to understand: http://dodin.info/wiki/pmwiki.php not so a wow effect, bu perfectly useful for me.
Does this resonate with anyone?
let alone the openSUSE front page. We can now work on the wiki. last edit: by the way, I try to subscribe to the http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/ mailing list but have no answer from the server. Is it moderated? jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
jdd schreef op 28-12-2015 9:11:
Le 28/12/2015 06:11, Xen a écrit :
first of all, thanks opening this thread. Looks like the wiki is deprecated (given the place of the link on the main page), but it should not. Richard said that now the wiki is more opened, that is -if I get it well- mean that the necessity of peer review before publication is removed and it's a good thing.
Thanks for being appreciative. Doesn't happen too much in my life. ;'(. So indeed there was such a necessity. Of course, that is what I mean. That means the wiki was meant for employees, not for users (to edit).
The priority have to be the information, not the structure. This don't mean that the structure is unimportant, but we can promote the "recent change" link to ask old timers to fix new pages problems.
The structure is the form. The form can be like the door with a thousand locks: it keeps people away, even if the information contained "behind" the door might be attractive. And that was my point: if there is no allowance for divergence and 'being your own thing' -- if the entire wiki has to be a reviewed, consistent, congruent, monolithic piece of information, then you cannot enter there as a user. It also means any form of reorganisation is and can only be done by "qualified" people. So if there is ever going to be a reorganisation, it is going to be done by a few very central people, but not by any larger group that does it "as they go". Organically. That is what I mean. Wikis are necessarily and naturally organic organisations of knowledge. Right now the wiki is not.
I access the wiki mostly with google search, adding simply "opensuse" on the search content. Many wiki pages are extremely well done, but also many needs updating after each new distro, specially now for Leap.
But being extremely well done is not the most important thing, you know. Sorry if I'm being argumentative, I'm not sure why it is ending up this way. Maybe because of the smiley ;-).
two ways: search with google (or any other search engine), or work to make it better (like with this thread :-)
thanks ;-).
A wiki usually is a place where there's room for individuality. A good wiki invites users to make their own custom personal pages.
I didn't understand you previous sentence. I have my personal page
https://en.opensuse.org/User:Jdd
always the same one since the beginning
Yes, but normally there is going to be a gradual difference between the "common" wiki and the personal wiki. If the common wiki (shared wiki) is extremely strict, there is not going to be much opportunity to start editing and there won't be any opportunity to link to your personal page either. This means community members/visitors/users won't have an opportunity to become a part, because they are too much apart. The distance is too great.
There is an history around this. In short the wiki was free access and, I admit, a mess. It was decided to make it wikipedia like. I was against this decision because the wiki team was too small, and began to remove the old wiki as first move. It's veru easy to organize a wiki without removing anything, it's the very nature of a wiki, and by this move all the previous links to the wiki where lost. Finally the old wiki was kept, but with different address.
Right. Bad move indeed. If anything you have to reorganize what you have. I do it all the time with my files. Any confluent wiki will invite editing by just about anyone. The WordPress Codex for instance is also a corpus but individual authors/programmers are always allowed to edit it. Trusting your users and creating the atmosphere in which it is fun to edit and create quality pages, is what makes a wiki come alive. Existing pages invite you (not by word, but by form) to create additional pages of the same quality or improve pages that already exist.
if any thing engage legally openSUSE at risk, it may have to be removed
That in itself is troublesome, but that was not the case. I just told them they (whomever they were) were idiots ;-). Dirty laundry. They (whomever they are) don't want that ;-).
It is pretty but it doesn't work. It is not a website for people to feel at home in. It is really a front page that scares you away: YOU DO NOT WANT TO REVISIT THAT PAGE if you don't have to.
I mostly agree with you, but don't think it's so important. See my own front page to understand:
http://dodin.info/wiki/pmwiki.php
not so a wow effect, bu perfectly useful for me.
Your site also doesn't work very well for being an attractive place to be. But that is mostly because most wiki templates are butt-ugly, not really something you can do much about yourself, to be honest, and regretfully. (For instance, I myself am still trying to perk up DokuWiki with a certain theme, and usually failing... ;-)). But the OpenSUSE site really does the opposite of that: your site if functional, but ugly, the OpenSUSE site is beautiful, but dysfunctional. If I am going to be rough about it. And if it works well for you, that's fine. The blue is just a typical wiki-blue (the background) that I find detestable. Many wikis use it. I am sometimes pained by the fact that I am so bad at (colour) graphical design. Being a somewhat colour-blind person, I am great at layout, but I am rotten at creating colourful elements that actually look nice together. So personally I would instantly start improving your site, but that means improving the wiki ;-). Tough luck for me then.
let alone the openSUSE front page. We can now work on the wiki.
Would people want emails of this nature to go to that (a) specific list? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
last edit: by the way, I try to subscribe to the
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/
mailing list but have no answer from the server. Is it moderated?
I have just subscribed to the -nomail version, worked fine. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.9°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 31/12/2015 12:51, Per Jessen a écrit :
jdd wrote:
last edit: by the way, I try to subscribe to the
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/
mailing list but have no answer from the server. Is it moderated?
I have just subscribed to the -nomail version, worked fine.
oh, yes, thanks, the confirm mail went to the spam folder :-( done now jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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