On 17/02/10 17:53, C wrote:

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 07:49, C wrote:

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On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 06:42, Bob S wrote:

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My son-in-law gave my wife a Mac OSX 17" laptop. (He is in a graphics busines, uses Mac exclusively and recycles his laptops on a regular basis) ( I know absolutely 0 about Apple) She knows nothing about Mac either but would like to use it as her "personal" computer. I finally got it set upfor her with wireless, internet access, mail with Thunderbird, etc. but she still only knows the SuSE way.

Sooo....the question is can I install a SuSE onto that machine? or better yet network the laptop to my/her desktop 11.0 via something like ssh?

Depending on how old the laptop is, then.. yes as long as it's the Intel based hardware. You use Bootcamp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Camp_%28software%29 and install whatever other OSes you want.

More info about installing openSUSE is on the Wiki here: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_on_a_Mac

C

I have to admit that this is an educational experience to me. But then, every day of life one learns something new.... On this basis I would never even consider buying an Apple product. Microsoft? Microsoft is a saint considering this. BC -- The calendar's days are numbered! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 17/02/10 18:13, Duaine Hechler wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

<snip>

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I have to admit that this is an educational experience to me. But then, every day of life one learns something new....

On this basis I would never even consider buying an Apple product.

Microsoft? Microsoft is a saint considering this.

BC

Saint - my aunt's fanny - you need to look at this (I've been building

since 1998)

http://www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com/other/microsoft.html

Thanks Duane, but it does not address my comment above. At least I cannot immediately find anything relating to it among all the negativity about MS. And the other thing, how is it possible that your website shows, "*Things the general public need to know about Microsoft and Windows! Last modified 01/11/10"? *It's only 17* February* 2010 today and nowhere close to November '10. BC -- The calendar's days are numbered! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 17/02/10 19:36, Ed Greshko wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 17/02/10 18:13, Duaine Hechler wrote:

...

Basil Chupin wrote:

<snip>

...

I have to admit that this is an educational experience to me. But then, every day of life one learns something new....

On this basis I would never even consider buying an Apple product.

Microsoft? Microsoft is a saint considering this.

BC

Saint - my aunt's fanny - you need to look at this (I've been building

since 1998)

http://www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com/other/microsoft.html

Thanks Duane, but it does not address my comment above. At least I cannot immediately find anything relating to it among all the negativity about MS.

And the other thing, how is it possible that your website shows, "*Things the general public need to know about Microsoft and Windows! Last modified 01/11/10"?

*It's only 17* February* 2010 today and nowhere close to November '10.

BC

Some places use dd/mm/yy and some places use mm/dd/yy.

And most places use the correct dd/mm/yy way of showing dates or at least code their <whatever> so that other systems can understand and interpret the gooblydook into the correct format as god intended :-) . BC -- The calendar's days are numbered! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 17/02/10 20:02, Ed Greshko wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 17/02/10 19:36, Ed Greshko wrote:

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Some places use dd/mm/yy and some places use mm/dd/yy.

And most places use the correct dd/mm/yy way of showing dates or at least code their <whatever> so that other systems can understand and interpret the gooblydook into the correct format as god intended :-) .

And, of course, it would also depend on one's interpretation of "god".

Oh god, you're not one of those evangelists who goes around to places like Haiti and tries to abduct children in the name of doing envangelical-good for them? :-) BC -- The calendar's days are numbered! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 09:36, Ed Greshko wrote:

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And the other thing, how is it possible that your website shows, "*Things the general public need to know about Microsoft and Windows! Last modified 01/11/10"?

*It's only 17* February* 2010 today and nowhere close to November '10.

Some places use dd/mm/yy and some places use mm/dd/yy.

Yup, and it's a source of confusion all the time. Like the dtae above.. is that 01 November 2010 or 11 January 2010? I've started using ISO 8601 date formats in my job (where date/time info is really important to be understood across various countries), and even going so far as to really clarify... like to write today's date, it's 2010-02-17 in ISO 8601,and even then I've had to follow that with more clarification... so the dates end up being written as 2010-02-17 (February 17). It's another oddity of local standards which work just fine.. locally, but when taken out into the bigger world, they stop working, or are a point of confusion :-) Isn't life fun some days? C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 17/02/10 19:55, Ed Greshko wrote:

C wrote:

...

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 09:36, Ed Greshko wrote:

...

...

And the other thing, how is it possible that your website shows, "*Things the general public need to know about Microsoft and Windows! Last modified 01/11/10"?

*It's only 17* February* 2010 today and nowhere close to November '10.

Some places use dd/mm/yy and some places use mm/dd/yy.

Yup, and it's a source of confusion all the time. Like the dtae above.. is that 01 November 2010 or 11 January 2010?

I've started using ISO 8601 date formats in my job (where date/time info is really important to be understood across various countries), and even going so far as to really clarify... like to write today's date, it's 2010-02-17 in ISO 8601,and even then I've had to follow that with more clarification... so the dates end up being written as 2010-02-17 (February 17).

It's another oddity of local standards which work just fine.. locally, but when taken out into the bigger world, they stop working, or are a point of confusion :-) Isn't life fun some days?

C.

I bet a lot of folks would have trouble with the date 99年2月17日.

Nah, not here at all, in anyway... BC -- The calendar's days are numbered! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 17/02/10 20:12, Ed Greshko wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

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On 17/02/10 19:55, Ed Greshko wrote:

...

C wrote:

...

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 09:36, Ed Greshko wrote:

...

...

And the other thing, how is it possible that your website shows, "*Things the general public need to know about Microsoft and Windows! Last modified 01/11/10"?

*It's only 17* February* 2010 today and nowhere close to November '10.

Some places use dd/mm/yy and some places use mm/dd/yy.

Yup, and it's a source of confusion all the time. Like the dtae above.. is that 01 November 2010 or 11 January 2010?

I've started using ISO 8601 date formats in my job (where date/time info is really important to be understood across various countries), and even going so far as to really clarify... like to write today's date, it's 2010-02-17 in ISO 8601,and even then I've had to follow that with more clarification... so the dates end up being written as 2010-02-17 (February 17).

It's another oddity of local standards which work just fine.. locally, but when taken out into the bigger world, they stop working, or are a point of confusion :-) Isn't life fun some days?

C.

I bet a lot of folks would have trouble with the date 99年2月17日.

Nah, not here at all, in anyway...

Most people would not know why 99年2月17日 is equivalent to February 17, 2010.

But, it is interesting that your message arrived here marked with MIME headers....

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That would explain why 99年2月17日 became what it did in the reply.

For the purpose of this exercise, ie in replying to your earlier post, I have set Thunderbird to use the same character encoding when replying to a message. So, you received the encoding format (above) of what you had sent out originally (ie, in UTF-8 encoding). You are using UTF-8 as your encoding, which is what my TB used to reply to your post- and which is why you are seeing the gooblydook above. BC -- The calendar's days are numbered! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 17/02/10 23:25, Tejas Guruswamy wrote:

On 17/02/10 11:57, Basil Chupin wrote:

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On 17/02/10 20:12, Ed Greshko wrote:

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...

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I bet a lot of folks would have trouble with the date 99年2月17日.

Nah, not here at all, in anyway...

Most people would not know why 99年2月17日 is equivalent to February 17, 2010.

But, it is interesting that your message arrived here marked with MIME headers....

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That would explain why 99年2月17日 became what it did in the reply.

For the purpose of this exercise, ie in replying to your earlier post, I have set Thunderbird to use the same character encoding when replying to a message.

So, you received the encoding format (above) of what you had sent out originally (ie, in UTF-8 encoding).

You are using UTF-8 as your encoding, which is what my TB used to reply to your post- and which is why you are seeing the gooblydook above.

Ed's emails have all been UTF-8, the correct encoding. It's windows-8859-1 that doesn't have east asian char support and is doing the garbling. Basil, your email in reply to Ed's UTF-8 was in 8859-1 - I think your TB isn't set up as you think it is?

At least this thread is now deserving of the OT label.

Now, isn't this most fascinating! Your headier shows that your message (this one) has: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 but my settings in Thunderbird are as per the attached file.

Regards, Tejas

Kind regards, BC -- The calendar's days are numbered!

On 18/02/10 00:02, Tejas Guruswamy wrote:

On 17/02/10 12:44, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 17/02/10 23:25, Tejas Guruswamy wrote:

...

Ed's emails have all been UTF-8, the correct encoding. It's windows-8859-1 that doesn't have east asian char support and is doing the garbling. Basil, your email in reply to Ed's UTF-8 was in 8859-1 - I think your TB isn't set up as you think it is?

At least this thread is now deserving of the OT label.

Now, isn't this most fascinating!

Your headier shows that your message (this one) has:

text/plain; charset=windows-1252

but my settings in Thunderbird are as per the attached file.

windows-1252 is an alias for windows-8859-1 which is what is what I sent you / the default, so that makes sense.

My settings in TB appear to be the exact same as yours, Basil. Maybe I should try replying to one of Ed's UTF-8 emails and see what happens.

That's a marvellous idea! :-) (Over the past couple of weeks, or less, there has been a "debate' going on here about this nonsense about UTF-8 and 8859-1 and weird characters showing up. The bottom line to this is that gmail, and some other "mailers", are using UTF-8. All those who use proppa mailers then see garbage characters appear in messages. You can prove this for yourself by simply altering your char. encoding in Thunderbird from 8859-1 to UTF-8 and instantly see the weirdo chars show up in messages.) BC -- The calendar's days are numbered! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Replying to Ed's email from my TB does result in a well-formatted UTF-8 email, both in gmail and other providers. I am still curious as to why your reply changed the encoding, given your TB settings are the same as mine, unless UTF-8 is somehow broken on your machine, Basil. On 17/02/10 13:17, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Ed's emails have all been UTF-8, the correct encoding.

Why is UTF-8 the correct encoding?

I didn't mean "correct" in an absolute sense, I meant for the content of Ed's email (he used Chinese chars), UTF-8 is the encoding that he sent it in and the one that will display it as intended.

The Mozilla family of FF and TB come installed as per what appears on the openSUSE DVD or CD. The default encoding has been 8859-1.

If I change this to UTF-8 I see garbage.

Yes, 8859-1 (aka windows-1252) is the default on my machine too, no argument there. As to why you see garbage when you switch to UTF-8, It depends what you are trying to view in UTF-8. Maybe what you are trying look at isn't UTF-8, so yes, you might see some bad chars. If you are talking about UTF-8 not working for UTF-8 documents like Ed's email, then its a different problem - maybe you don't have the right fonts installed?(which would be strange, I thought suse had them by default)

...

It's windows-8859-1 that doesn't have east asian char support

Ummm, what the heck do I care about "east asian characters"? I don't communicate with anyone who does not use the proper English language (but this has to be qualified when it comes to those who use the American version of English :-) .)

Because Ed sent some, and your reply garbled them, prompting this whole discussion, no other reason :) Those garbage characters did actually have a meaning at one point ... and it does display OK for me (see png attachment)

Not until this question of what is supposed to be the correct character encoding to be used in Firefox and Thunderbird as installed from openSUSE DVDs or CDs.

See above, I didn't mean globally correct, I meant for that specific email. Sorry if I stirred you up too much :) Regards, Tejas

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Basil Chupin さんは書きました:

I really don't know what is going wrong or who is to blame but all I do know is that if someone uses UTF-8 as the encoding of text in their mailer then what I see in TB is weird chars. Also, if I deliberately alter my setting for Incoming mail (under the Advanced option mentioned above) I can see weirdo chars in what otherwise appeared a normal message before I changed the setting from 8859-1 to UTF-8.

Maybe your system is converting UTF-8 to ISO-8859-1? And if UTF-8 fonts are not installed, the default system font, whatever it is, will be used. That's fine if you care for nothing but modern English. It thoroughly sucks when trying to read everything else.

This has been already discussed some days ago when I talked about seeing a black diamond with a white question mark in the middle of it.

But of course! Thunderbird does this a lot for Subject: headers in non-standard charsets. Even the localized, non-English/non-latin versions do this. IIRC, RFC which defines mail headers (RFC2822? RFC5322???) still requires USASCII encoding for mail headers, which by the way is not enforced by most MUA's and MTA's. Apparently TB does enforce it. With coming global TLD's this will need to be changed to UTF-8 to accomodate the new gTLD rules. == jd In the force if Yoda is so strong, construct a sentence with the words in proper order then why can't he? - -- ? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLfXvxhpL3F+HeDrIRAi5vAJ9vDq6ebeyu74xZwozWKQDhQL65UQCaA0iv 3qJnMdXni/mQlQJkP2RTbLc= =Ka7L -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 17/02/10 19:49, C wrote:

On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 09:36, Ed Greshko wrote:

...

...

And the other thing, how is it possible that your website shows, "*Things the general public need to know about Microsoft and Windows! Last modified 01/11/10"?

*It's only 17* February* 2010 today and nowhere close to November '10.

Some places use dd/mm/yy and some places use mm/dd/yy.

Yup, and it's a source of confusion all the time. Like the dtae above.. is that 01 November 2010 or 11 January 2010?

I've started using ISO 8601 date formats in my job (where date/time info is really important to be understood across various countries), and even going so far as to really clarify... like to write today's date, it's 2010-02-17 in ISO 8601,and even then I've had to follow that with more clarification... so the dates end up being written as 2010-02-17 (February 17).

It's another oddity of local standards which work just fine.. locally, but when taken out into the bigger world, they stop working, or are a point of confusion :-) Isn't life fun some days?

Woooh, yea, it's a real ball! :-) While my mailer translates most date formats written by sensible mailers correctly, when responding in writing to posts I try to spell out along the lines of "on 23 Feb 2010", for example, " you wrote..." rather than take the risk that the mailer at the other end will stuff up the date and make it read "02/23/2010" - or some such rubbish. The Americans have a lot to answer for..... :-) . ('Color' instead of 'colour'; 'harbor' instead of 'harbour'; 'ass' instead of 'arse'; and the list can go on..... :-) .) BC -- The calendar's days are numbered! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* James Knott [02-17-10 08:41]:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

The Americans have a lot to answer for..... :-) .

('Color' instead of 'colour'; 'harbor' instead of 'harbour'; 'ass' instead of 'arse'; and the list can go on..... :-) .)

At least they don't drive on the wrong side of the road! ;-)

or spell aluminum // aluminium -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott said the following on 02/17/2010 08:36 AM:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

The Americans have a lot to answer for..... :-) .

('Color' instead of 'colour'; 'harbor' instead of 'harbour'; 'ass' instead of 'arse'; and the list can go on..... :-) .)

At least they don't drive on the wrong side of the road! ;-)

Actually they do. Consider two cars passing in opposite directions. Their motion causes a vortex of air as they pass. It spins anti-clockwise, which is the same way that hurricanes (etc) spin in the northern hemisphere. So all those millions of cars are contributing spin in the air and it all adds up. The correct formula, therefore, is to drive on the left in the northern hemisphere and on the right in the southern hemisphere. So the Australians have it wrong as well. I'll leave as an exercise to the reader how one should drive on or near the equator. -- "If you have only one layer of protection you are only as safe as the next bug-de-jour" - Brad M Powell, Snr Network Security Architect, Sun Microsystems -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 02/17/2010 08:36 AM, James Knott wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

The Americans have a lot to answer for..... :-) .

('Color' instead of 'colour'; 'harbor' instead of 'harbour'; 'ass' instead of 'arse'; and the list can go on..... :-) .)

BC

At least they don't drive on the wrong side of the road! ;-)

Well, I won't defend many of the stupid things we do (antique measurements based on a long-dead king's body parts?? teaching our kids that real measurements are hard just because we're too lazy to learn a real system??). But, really, one of the many truly smart things we did was get rid of many of the silly Frenchifications in our writing. jp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

Thanks Duane, but it does not address my comment above. At least I cannot immediately find anything relating to it among all the negativity about MS.

And the other thing, how is it possible that your website shows, "*Things the general public need to know about Microsoft and Windows! Last modified 01/11/10"?

*It's only 17* February* 2010 today and nowhere close to November '10.

BC

He's being proactive. ;-) Actually, many would read that date as Jan 11, 2010. However, the ISO date format of YYYY-MM-DD should be used to avoid such confusion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iso_date_format -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin said the following on 02/18/2010 12:33 AM:

But then, of course, there would not be a problem if the Americans stuck with the British way of showing dates......

Its not as simple as that. If it were simply Big-endian (2009-12-31) vs Little-endian (31-12-2009) that would be one thing - British vs Japanese. But its not. The Americans do an "out of order" or "middle-endian" So of course the Americans invented the PDP-11 and the VAX See http://unixpapa.com/incnote/byteorder.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness There's even a RFC about it! http://www.ietf.org/rfc/ien/ien137.txt and http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1014.html -- "Writing good documentation is hard. It's much harder than writing code." -- Chris McDonough, ZopeMag Interview July 2003 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rodney Baker said the following on 02/18/2010 08:03 AM:

I think you meant 1st November 2010 (unless you're reading 11 as Roman numerals...;-) ).

Which was the way I was taught to write dates at school. Very "old school" - it makes the month "different". Another way would be to use the abbreviation for the month, which was one format some database systems defaulted to, decides ago 1-NOV-2010 The problem is that while Roman numerals are pretty international, month names and their abbreviations are not. -- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org