On 14/03/12 13:09, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-03-14 02:38, Basil Chupin wrote:

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I cannot remember, but in the past sometime didn't the Software Manager remain on the screen after it had completed downloading and installing selected files? In 12.1 and 12.2 MS#1 it just disappears off the screen and one has to go thru the motions of restarting it again using the Kickoff menu. /etc/sysconfig/yast2: PKGMGR_ACTION_AT_EXIT=...

@ Carl: thanks for confirming that my memory cells are not yet totally dead :-) . Thanks Carlos - I just made the alteration. This previously was the default (to 'restart') I am sure so I don't understand why this has been changed...... BC -- The vulgar crowd always is taken by appearances, and the world consists chiefly of the vulgar. Niccolo Machiavelli -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 14/03/12 13:53, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-03-14 03:44, Basil Chupin wrote:

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Thanks Carlos - I just made the alteration. I was "summary".

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This previously was the default (to 'restart') I am sure so I don't understand why this has been changed...... The action time ago was a kind of summary or dialog, exit or restart (non configurable). Then it was changed to "exit", and no possibility to change. This started a big discussion, in the factory mail list IIRC, and the current status was made: it is now configurable. The variable by default is empty, default action "close". Some argued that the default be changed to "summary", but it has not changed.

I haven't looked at 12.1 because I've been using Milestone#1 of 12.2 for days now and here the parameter is not remed out and is not empty but has "close" as the entry. I changed this to "restart". BC -- The vulgar crowd always is taken by appearances, and the world consists chiefly of the vulgar. Niccolo Machiavelli -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-03-14 13:59, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

If you use "summary" you then have the option of all three,

Yes, that is what I use. I do it on all systems I install, and then I have to remember what to change the first time I see the window close. Unfortunately, YOU closes without question or report :-( - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk9go0AACgkQIvFNjefEBxqHSwCeNdpcjbsTNF9YFYW2pTM3SG0G fYYAoIns7LRgvDKkBgJybCsFDGtK+2n+ =BK1Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 06:09:57PM -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:55:12 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:

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Unfortunately, YOU closes without question or report :-(

What would be the reason to keep updater opened, after update is installed?

it is used for more than just update -- it is also the software manager, where ppl search for and install software -- frequently they want to search for and install something else after they've installed one thing sc -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 14/03/12 23:59, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

On 03/13/12 23:03, Basil Chupin pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

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On 14/03/12 13:53, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-03-14 03:44, Basil Chupin wrote:

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Thanks Carlos - I just made the alteration. I was "summary".

...

This previously was the default (to 'restart') I am sure so I don't understand why this has been changed...... The action time ago was a kind of summary or dialog, exit or restart (non configurable). Then it was changed to "exit", and no possibility to change. This started a big discussion, in the factory mail list IIRC, and the current status was made: it is now configurable. The variable by default is empty, default action "close". Some argued that the default be changed to "summary", but it has not changed.

I haven't looked at 12.1 because I've been using Milestone#1 of 12.2 for days now and here the parameter is not remed out and is not empty but has "close" as the entry. I changed this to "restart".

BC

If you use "summary" you then have the option of all three,

close-return-look at summary

Thanks Ken. I will try this out shortly. BC -- The vulgar crowd always is taken by appearances, and the world consists chiefly of the vulgar. Niccolo Machiavelli -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 02:50:01PM +0100, LLLActive@GMX.Net wrote: [ 8< ] superfluous full quote pruned

Why not "summary" as default?; then 'normal users' do not have to use CLI (again) to allow all options.

Check this mail thread. There had been reason to stay with the current default. In the past a summary got displayed. There had been valid reasons against this. While a summary is still an available option. See /etc/sysconfig/yast2:PKGMGR_ACTION_AT_EXIT and the comments above. To modify the configuration a user isn't forced to use the command line or an editor at all. All you need is to call the YaST sysconfig editor.

Remember the intended user; we are the exception when we continually play around with the CLI (which I admit is much more fun for geeks).

Could there eventually be an attitude to get openSUSE into a normal user market, or will it be kept for 'geeks only'? "geez --endrant".

What's a normal user? you, me, who? I consider the current default ok. It return to the point where the user started the journey. Thanks, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 03:21:19PM +0100, C wrote:

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 15:11, Lars Müller <lmuelle@suse.de> wrote:

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I consider the current default ok.  It return to the point where the user started the journey.

Apparently you haven't had to field calls from confused beginner users who are wondering what they did wrong after installing an application.

Beginning users I'm not allowing to call YaST at all. They even don't know that the user with the most power is named root. And believe me, they even don't care about this at all.

100% of the people I assist with migrating to Linux/openSUSE are confused by the current default. Not some.. all.

Well, if they're root on their box, then it's quite eady to change the default. It's possible from the GUI which you call obscure. Well, your point of view.

Experienced users don't have a problem with the current default... and experienced users can use CLI or the YaST tools to change the obscure options to change the behavior.. but in that process, we loose sight of the fact that there is a huge number of users that are not on the mailing lists and forums who rely on their neighborhood "expert" to guide them through the maze.

Is there an article in the wiki maybe? No, I'm not going to check this. My bug list is long and more pressing issues are waiting.

This one issue I see over and over... "why did my software installer disappear?" or... "why do I always have to restart the software installer?"

If that's the case feel free to feed https://features.openSUSE.org/ If non has done this in the past. As I don't care you'll neither get a plus or minus from me. Best is you branch YaST, change the default and start to smack the YaST devs around. I expect they'll love you. :) Cheers, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

C wrote:

I'm not asking for a change now.. just trying to point out that in some of what we do here in the project we forget the end user...

+1. Wouldn't it be nice with an option on the first YaST window: Please indicate user experience level 1) beginner 2) experienced 3) professional Having the information would at least mean module writers could take it into account when choosing defaults and options. Sorry, I don't have any time to write this either. :-( -- Per Jessen, Zürich (16.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 07:22:57PM +0100, LLLActive@GMX.Net wrote:

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C wrote:

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I'm not asking for a change now.. just trying to point out that in some of what we do here in the project we forget the end user... +1. exactly !!

Wouldn't it be nice with an option on the first YaST window:

Please indicate user experience level

Good indicator, the user decides what (s)he wants! The technical issue besides the point for now; it is the attitude that is reflected. Mature software presents a non-patronizing manner to the user by allowing choices, and informing by good help functions about them. Having done some technical writing and training material, it was noticed that such efforts by users willing to help with such uninteresting things like documentation and help systems are scared off by these same engineers that know how it all works and loathe the ignorance of these 'common' users. In stead of working together, this attitude destroys great products like openSUSE in the long run. No wonder many drift back to the brain dead M$ approach out of frustration about such infantile attitudes. Pity. Sigh.

Ok, what's the conclusion? Something is broken from the view of several of us. What are we doing? Discuss it as long as possible till one finally gets annoyed to work on it? This habit I would call an infantile attitude. Try to step back a bit and then consider where to spent your time on. Please compare the issue discussed here to the noise generated on list and the input given to address it at via https://features.openSUSE.org/ Till now none of you who puts this amount of energy into this thread had been powerful, smart, or solution driven enough to file a feature request. Instead you expect others to drive something you like to get changed. It's even impossible to all of you to quote the URL to the former discussions on this topic. But this is valid information and are pieces of the argumentation needed to convice and win others. The issue is for some use cases easy to address. See my earlier mail on this as part of this thread.¹ At least it is very easy to fix if the system gets installed by a user with some experience. Has anyone of those complaining loudly about this issue checked and enhanced the documentation available from http://en.openSUSE.org/ ? If all of you believe the endusers point of view is getting lost feed https://features.openSUSE.org/ with a new request. Quote the feature ID here and allow all of us to vote. If your argumentation is brilliant, maybe even if it only is good then you might even get my positive vote. Thanks, Lars ¹ http://lists.openSUSE.org/opensuse/2012-03/msg00747.html -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 03:50:12PM +0100, C wrote:

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 15:34, Lars Müller <lmuelle@suse.de> wrote:

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...

Apparently you haven't had to field calls from confused beginner users who are wondering what they did wrong after installing an application.

Beginning users I'm not allowing to call YaST at all.  They even don't know that the user with the most power is named root.

So, you support them every single time they want to update?

No. I enabled automatic updates. Yes, that works quite well.

and add an application?

They all are getting a default KDE install. If that doesn't offer all they need - what do people need these days more than a web browser? - I file bug reports or feature requests.

Can I give my "users" your phone number? I field support for users in Australia, Canada, USA, Germany, Netherlands, Sweden and and and.. (I've got friends scattered all over the place)

If you pay enough then I'm going to do this. Sure. While being a cheap boy in general for such SM fun I'm taking a lot per hour. ;)

They don't know they have root for the most part.. they know that if they want to add an application, they use their user password.

If that works for you. Well, then it works.

...

Well, if they're root on their box, then it's quite eady to change the default.  It's possible from the GUI which you call obscure.  Well, your point of view.

You (as in experienced users, not you specifically) are used to and comfortable with the YaST tools for editing system configurations... they are not.. to say "just go change the option" is silly... you don't tell a user to go tweak their Windows Registry any more than you tell these same users to go twiddle the oepnSUSE system configurations. That's a "stay away from there or you might break it" place.

a) The YaST sysconfig editor is less terrible than modifing the registry of Microsoft products. b) They have to do this _one_ time. Call this two commands and be happy. /usr/sbin/sysconf_addword -r /etc/sysconfig/yast2 PKGMGR_ACTION_AT_EXIT close /usr/sbin/sysconf_addword /etc/sysconfig/yast2 PKGMGR_ACTION_AT_EXIT summary If you consider this approach sucking lame goto the file_a_feature_request section of this thread.

...

...

This one issue I see over and over... "why did my software installer disappear?" or... "why do I always have to restart the software installer?"

If that's the case feel free to feed https://features.openSUSE.org/  If non has done this in the past.  As I don't care you'll neither get a plus or minus from me.

Best is you branch YaST, change the default and start to smack the YaST devs around.  I expect they'll love you. :)

I'm not going to branch YaST... like you.. limited time.

All our time is limited. That's why I consider no longer to watse it on this kind of threads. The outcome is at the end a bit to small compared to the invested time.

This was discusses ad-nasueum when the change was made. The reasons for making the change make sense for experienced users and don't make sense for in-experienced users.... but that fact was railroaded over during the discussion.

Thanks for the pointer to the archive of the discussion! Is this some kind of argument hiding or are you this busy?

One thing that was requested back during the horse flogging was that there be an option added to the software manager... nothing ever came of it because people are understandably busy. So in the end, the default was changed to what makes sense for experienced users....

The current approach makes even sense to the beginner user. They install a package and that's it. There are arguments to both approaches for beginners and advanced users.

and the rest of use are left standing there trying to explain to Joe and Jane User how to navigate the scary sysconfig applet in YaST.

Yeah, I see you standing there one hour each week to explain your users again and again how hard the YaST developers are making it to you. ;) Hey, how about coming to the next openSUSE conference and you and me we smack them all as hard as possible?

I'm not asking for a change now.. just trying to point out that in some of what we do here in the project we forget the end user... this is one prime example. We made a change to a default that may not have been the best one - depending on who your user is... an experienced developer and long time Linux user, or someone who is making their first steps into Linux... or doesn't know enough to be confident enough to poke the dragon lurking under the surface of their KDE or Gnome (or LXDE ect etc) desktop

Instead of wrinting the reply you could have filed the feature request, branched the YaST code, brewed me a fresh coffe or tea, cleaned your flat or even better mine. But a reply to the list is much more fun. Well, then the YaST software installer stays how it is. Till the pain is big enough to anyone else. Yours look quite small right now. And mine if for this topic not even existing. On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 04:27:35PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

C wrote:

...

I'm not asking for a change now.. just trying to point out that in some of what we do here in the project we forget the end user...

+1.

Wouldn't it be nice with an option on the first YaST window:

Please indicate user experience level

1) beginner 2) experienced 3) professional

Having the information would at least mean module writers could take it into account when choosing defaults and options.

Any additional question while the install contradicts the intention of the initial issue presented as part of this thread. Making is easier to beginners.

Sorry, I don't have any time to write this either. :-(

But you have the time to follow this discussion and reply. Strange. Cheers, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 02:50:01PM +0100,LLLActive@GMX.Net wrote: [ 8< ] superfluous full quote pruned

...

...

Why not "summary" as default?; then 'normal users' do not have to use CLI (again) to allow all options. Check this mail thread. There had been reason to stay with the current default.

What's a normal user? you, me, who?

I consider the current default ok. __________

Maybe I did not make my point succinctly enough. The technical solution here is not the point ... Starting as a young dev engineer in TV broadcasting aeons ago, there was often the comment from the engineer to a colleague, about the video producers and sound techs, "I know how it works best, they get what I can design best". This is mostly the incompetent, but technically genial, engineer that whats to decide what is best for the user. Over the years with the right amount of maturity, this way of 'believing' is forced to change. Users just use something else ... simple. Pity. Sigh. .oOOo. Dreiel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Lars Müller wrote:

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 06:58:47PM +0100, LLLActive@GMX.Net wrote: [ 8< ]

...

Maybe I did not make my point succinctly enough. The technical solution here is not the point ...

Starting as a young dev engineer in TV broadcasting aeons ago, there was often the comment from the engineer to a colleague, about the video producers and sound techs, "I know how it works best, they get what I can design best". This is mostly the incompetent, but technically genial, engineer that whats to decide what is best for the user.

Please keep in mind: I don't have anythibng to do with the YaST development. I'm a community user like you're.

Except you hail from a "suse.de" address. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 08:50:35PM +0100, LLLActive@GMX.Net wrote:

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As written before: This issue is a non issue to me. I'm able to work with the YaST package manager front end as it is.

The technical issue is not the point. It is the way things are seen and discussed. For you it may be a non-issue, others are allowed to differ - or not?

What is driving you to this rhetorical question? What you believe, what you think, what you do is all up to you. I expressed my view how I like to see all of us working together on the openSUSE project. Idenpendent of our skill level, the nation we're coming from, or gender, or background, or everthying.

It is a common problem of most humans not to accommodate the issues of others.

Let me ask back if you have tried this? I do and believe to handle this to approximately ¾ quite well. Some days better and some days not this good.

...

So where is the feature request you filed?

If you all count this feature that important for openSUSE why don't you go the way we have to go to convince the YaST developers?

"Sorry, I don't have the time." is what we have seen before in this thread and what I expect as answer to this mail too.

I hope anyone else is able to see the circular type of the argumentation. Technically, yes ... between technical specialists on this list? User input unwanted?

features.openSUSE.org is for anyone in the community. But that's what I've written before. Are you reading my replies? And are you even try to understand them and to follow the argumentation?

...

Athttps://features.openSUSE.org people can vote. Developers and users can add their comments.

But you guys expect others are doing stuff you like to see happening. OK, our ideas and 'stuff' are unimportant;

What is driving you to this conclusion? https://features.openSUSE.org/ is there for any community member.

not all on the list are able to develop - should we then go and come again when we can code?

Has anyone written that you or anyone else has to offer a diff, a patch, an algorithm or anthing else technical? Even a good desciption of an idea is enough. This tool is to track and evaluate suggestions and ideas. The name could even be public.brain.storm.openSUSE.org See it as a +1 -1 collecting engine. It's a tool which _might_ save all of us extra work if we make use of it. As some people make regular use of bugzilla, the tool to track bug reports. This is something which drives development.

Where do users go then, if not on a user list? This causes the death of great projects like openSUSE, this attitude scares off users, the ultimate object of the project. If the object is to just turn out excellent code, the project is condemned to 'geekness'. How enlightening ...

No. You read something into this and the mails earlier what has not been written. Not even in between the lines. Which leads me to the question: Do you like the project to be like you describe it or how it looks to you?

...

Sorry, following this approach must fail.

Yes, it is a pity that users are bracketed to another lists.

I never have sent anyone to a different list. Even here you miss the context or like to see it different. If you like to get something done or moved you _also_ need to get developers involved. I expect the majority of developers are not on this list. Therfore we have to use the established interface to communicate user needs. This inteface is features.openSUSE.org or the bug tracker.

Won't it be more useful if we all can share ideas with the people creating openSUSE?

You can share ideas as much as you like. And even if the main goal is to produce hot air or to cause a long thread. There might even be some outcome. That's all up to you. But it's even up to me to raise my voice and to try to focus the forces to get at the end a better result for the openSUSE project. And that's at the end good to any of us. But the big question might be: who creates openSUSE? My view: the people doing the work on the numerous componets openSUSE is compiled/ constructed from. The feature tracking tool is one mechanism to focus and filter communication. As bugzilla is. Much advanced compared to a plain mailing list. That's the reason why I stressed to use the available tools. Tools made from the Open Source community to be used by the Open Source community to enhance the Open Source community. As openSUSE is part of this community you and I are also part of it and are invited to make use of these tools. Nothing more or less did I intend to express. Make use of the available tools to enhance openSUSE, please.

We common users will try not to frustrate, but just adding to a feature list is not exactly a discussion. Users do not always know how to describe a feature/problem, and need patient engineers to guide them along a conceptual problem solving path to define the ideas. Is this list then only for developers? I thought it was a user list.

Read http://lists.openSUSE.org/ there is a summary what this list is intended for. Generic questions and User to User support for the openSUSE distribution For the remaining see the arguments above and in earlier mails as part of this thread. [ 8< ]

No, just appealing to some mature acceptance that users are one of our main resources and should be the target for developing openSUSE. No one is interested in the fighting of who is technically right and who is wrong - openSUSE should become the most accepted and user liked product! If that is not the main aim of all what is happening here, what is the point? Users move on - they do not care about internal problems. If the product is user shy, it will be dropped.

cat /etc/motd and see what I guess is the main goal of the project. If we create at the end a fabulous operating system I'm more than happy too. Users are needed. But any 'only' user also has to be aware that developers also have needs. The big question is how to balance the needs. As the result of this discussion I'm more and more able to understand why developers stay away from this list. Its very, very time consuming. On the other side it's frustrating to argue and argue again and again and to see no progress at all. Instead of driving this simple, non complex technical issue - keep in mind we started at the point to change the YaST on exit default action which is already configurable! - into a direction to address it, more and more text without any new aspects got created. Unproductive, time consuming, lame, no fun. Good arguments to stay away from this list. On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 08:48:37PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

Lars Müller wrote: [ 8< ]

...

Till now none of you who puts this amount of energy into this thread had been powerful, smart, or solution driven enough to file a feature request. Instead you expect others to drive something you like to get changed.

Lars, in case you were not aware, one does not need to be powerful, smart or even "solution driven" to file anything at openFATE. One just needs a slightly naive belief that it'll start something.

But openFATE offers a mechanism to vote. Ok, all of you don't make use of it? Then I believe it's time to file a request to drop this tool. From a filed request I believe it's possible to guess if the initiating person has an understanding or not about what got requested. On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 08:49:23PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

Lars Müller wrote:

...

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 06:58:47PM +0100, LLLActive@GMX.Net wrote: [ 8< ]

...

Maybe I did not make my point succinctly enough. The technical solution here is not the point ...

Starting as a young dev engineer in TV broadcasting aeons ago, there was often the comment from the engineer to a colleague, about the video producers and sound techs, "I know how it works best, they get what I can design best". This is mostly the incompetent, but technically genial, engineer that whats to decide what is best for the user.

Please keep in mind: I don't have anythibng to do with the YaST development. I'm a community user like you're.

Except you hail from a "suse.de" address.

And I said this before the domain part of my address doesn't make any difference. I have to argue the same way as anyone else. Believe it or not. Thanks, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 09:32:55 +0100 Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:

...

And I said this before the domain part of my address doesn't make any difference.  I have to argue the same way as anyone else.  Believe it or not.

Maybe so, but you're sending the wrong signal.

Per please, what signal? Lars is one of few people with the suse.de address that reads this list and is trying to channel energy people spend in endless discussions in a places that promise some result. Current topic of his efforts is openSUSE feature request and management system, on example of requested feature for YaST Software Manager. Everybody, except Lars: Operating openFATE web interface is quite easy for users that want to add comment and vote. It is as easy as Forums software. It is the other pair of shoes for people adding details in feature description, but well, those should be a bit more technically inclined anyway. BTW, what I find interesting is that no one discussing this particular feature did not take fraction of time spent filling mail list with posts to check http://features.opensuse.org for feature requested here, and, surprise, we already have two requests, one direct and one related. Make Yast2 stay open after installing packages https://features.opensuse.org/312750 This is discussing change in default. YaST2-software manager : Add "Action after Installation" option https://features.opensuse.org/309296 This one is looking for other options for the same issue. If you want feature implemented go there and vote, then blog, use Facebook, Google+, Forums, IRC to find more people interested in either of features. Of course avoid to repeat practice seen to discuss how poor user souls have no tools to request features and then point to https://features.opensuse.org/312750 , your readers will laugh at you. Also, focus on this issue, make it solved and then we can go to another. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Lars Müller composed:

As written before: This issue is a non issue to me.

Your prolific writing in this thread belies this statement, nearly one lengthy post for each of the past 7 hours. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/03/16 00:06 (GMT+0100) Lars Müller composed:

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 06:51:07PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Lars Müller composed:

...

...

As written before: This issue is a non issue to me.

...

Your prolific writing in this thread belies this statement, nearly one lengthy post for each of the past 7 hours.

There is a difference between the technical issue which is more or less non existing to me. See one of my initial relpies. I'm able to configure how the YaST software mangement tools behaves on exit.

But there is some issue regarding how users think to communicate with developers. And from the arguments presented I count this a big and important issue.

Then it should have been split off the original subject with a relevant subject.

You're using bugzilla and are driving issues forward there.

Is that tool ok, is it brilliant, or is at at the other end of scale of tools you had or have to use?

Typically on other distros I've been exposed to they have bug trackers that are also enhancement trackers. I much prefer those systems. Often the distinction between enhancement and bug or feature are blurry or non-existent. It's much easier to mark enhancement or not than to shift into an entirely different system, and suffer through incessant discussions about how to/where to/why to not use the bug tracker, and why the feature system is marginally useful.

If you used http://features.openSUSE.org/ I'd like to ask you the same questions as raised for bugzilla.

I've used it little, for the reasons above and put forth by others.

We need to know how high the pain level is to use the existing tools.

If they're non acceptable or not considered to help we have to evaluate if and which tools support our project goals better. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:00:03 +1100 Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> wrote:

If you are referring to Launchpad, used in K/Ubuntu, then I totally agree. A most useful source of information for those users.

To all: It would be nice, in order to address Lars question in a rounded discusson, to open new thread, possibly on opensuse-project@opensuse.org mail list. It is a good place to discuss project related issues (and infrastructure is one). We can compare Launchpad vs. comparable services that provides openSUSE. Probably it would be even better to make use of openSUSE Wiki at http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Infrastructure_improvements (it is empty now), list features of Launchpad and compare them to our infrastructure. Let people fix article and after some time, say 7 days, close that and open discussion on a project mail list. In a few rounds of described process we should have clear idea what has to be improved and in which order, fill http://features.opensuse.org with descriptions and then go and look for developers that can do that. They can be SUSE employees, but also just about anybody looking for something to do, like students participating in GSoC. http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org/google/gsoc2012/opensuse is good place to add tasks that can be done by one student participant in a allotted time. In other words those that look for developers, at GSoC will be plethora of candidates, all young, restless and qualified. For those complaining about sending to another mail list, I must remind present that opensuse@opensuse.org is generic list where discussion can be started if user has no idea where it belongs, but then it should be moved if there is a better place. Also, don't forget to reference here mail list archive URL of opening article in another mail list and there for instance this thread, that was moved, so that people can actually follow discussion. This little convenience is your contribution to better communication, without single developer hour needed, so without excuse why is not implemented. PS. There can be proposed improvements to mail list traffic and corresponding archives, but I'll give other readers time to discover what are the problems and propose improvements. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:51:47 +1100 Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> wrote: ...

the first is that you altered the Subject heading of this thread without even quoting any part of the original thread name; and

It was just adjustement to real topic of the article, and as you can see the second part is previous article subject, so it would be a bit redundant: "Launchpad and communication with developers (was:communication with developers)"

second is that you should have or could have created a new thread :-) .

I can't be everywhere, so some kind soul should take honors :)

What you wrote deserves a new thread Subject so that what you have in mind does not get lost in the thread which I started :-) .

Which one "communication with developers", or "Software Manager (YaST2) - a question about its behaviour" where later had more then a few hidden topics under never changed original, which is very confusing practice. In short, not all rules are equally applicable, some are more equal then the other :) (if you recall "1984") -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org