Daylight saving time
After research on the web i did not find nothing about daylight saving time on suse. How do i set it on suse 9.2? -- Regards Rangel Perez Sardinha <rangel.sardinha@pragyatechnologies.com> ===================================== Pragya Technologies Brazil Rua Alagoas, 135 Ribeirão Preto - SP - Brazil +55 16 9154-9114 =====================================
On 16 Sep 2005, rangel.sardinha@pragyatechnologies.com wrote:
After research on the web i did not find nothing about daylight saving time on suse. How do i set it on suse 9.2?
Set your hardware clock to UTC (GMT) and change your settings in YaST==> "System"==> "Date & Time". Linux will then manage DST automatically. Charles -- "Nature abhors a Vacuum" -- Brian Behlendorf on OSS (Open Sources, 1999 O'Reilly and Associates)
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 09:23:57 -0400, you wrote:
On 16 Sep 2005, rangel.sardinha@pragyatechnologies.com wrote:
After research on the web i did not find nothing about daylight saving time on suse. How do i set it on suse 9.2?
Set your hardware clock to UTC (GMT) and change your settings in YaST==> "System"==> "Date & Time". Linux will then manage DST automatically.
Um, not this year, AFAIK. Shrub is changing the effective DST dates in the face of every piece of electronics that will need to be reprogrammed. I wish we had a literate president. Mike- -- Mornings: Evolution in action. Only the grumpy will survive. -- Please note - Due to the intense volume of spam, we have installed site-wide spam filters at catherders.com. If email from you bounces, try non-HTML, non-encoded, non-attachments.
Mike, On Friday 16 September 2005 07:06, Michael W Cocke wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 09:23:57 -0400, you wrote:
On 16 Sep 2005, rangel.sardinha@pragyatechnologies.com wrote:
After research on the web i did not find nothing about daylight saving time on suse. How do i set it on suse 9.2?
Set your hardware clock to UTC (GMT) and change your settings in YaST==> "System"==> "Date & Time". Linux will then manage DST automatically.
Um, not this year, AFAIK. Shrub is changing the effective DST dates in the face of every piece of electronics that will need to be reprogrammed. I wish we had a literate president.
Two things: 1) That does not take effect until 2007. 2) Congress made this change, not the president. It was part of their so-called "energy bill" (officially, the "Energy Policy Act of 2005") And yes, I know, the president signed the bill. (*)
Mike-
Randall Schulz (*) This correction of fact should not be construed of an endorsement of the worst president America has ever had. ... Sorry, I just couldn't stop myself.
Randall R Schulz wrote:
(*) This correction of fact should not be construed of an endorsement of the worst president America has ever had. ... Sorry, I just couldn't stop myself.
Well, at least he accepted responsibility for Hurricane Katrina. ;-)
On Friday 16 September 2005 11:02, James Knott wrote:
Randall R Schulz wrote:
(*) This correction of fact should not be construed of an endorsement of the worst president America has ever had. ... Sorry, I just couldn't stop myself.
Well, at least he accepted responsibility for Hurricane Katrina. ;-)
Y'all keep your damned politics to yourselves and off the list. (Sorry, I just couldn't stop myself) -- Stop the invasion of illegal aliens swarming across our borders! <www.minutemanproject.com> If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.
On 16 Sep 2005, cocke@catherders.com wrote:
Um, not this year, AFAIK. Shrub is changing the effective DST dates in the face of every piece of electronics that will need to be reprogrammed.
Not in Canada, where I am from. We still haven't decided whether to follow your lead. Also, I am not too sure about Brasil (where the OP is from) either.
I wish we had a literate president.
Better luck next time ;-). Charles -- "All language designers are arrogant. Goes with the territory..." (By Larry Wall)
Rangel Perez Sardinha <rangel.sardinha@pragyatechnologies.com> writes:
After research on the web i did not find nothing about daylight saving time on suse. How do i set it on suse 9.2?
The DST is handled automatically by glibc. Make sure you have the proper time zone set (for instance via YaST -> Date and Time). If you want to know when DST starts in Brazil, try e.g. $ /usr/sbin/zdump -v /usr/share/zoneinfo/Brazil/East For more information, see man pages of zic, zdump, date, ... -- A.M.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2005-09-16 at 09:54 -0300, Rangel Perez Sardinha wrote:
After research on the web i did not find nothing about daylight saving time on suse. How do i set it on suse 9.2?
You don't :-) It is already done. Hoewever, if you want to modify your time zone settings, yast does it. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFDKw7LtTMYHG2NR9URAg5xAJ9C8Pdw5N7c8aZdGUvwFhIXtonU1QCfVCHF UHwDY1cRnmk06WhKy3JewHk= =oJM0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Friday 16 September 2005 02:28 pm, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Friday 2005-09-16 at 09:54 -0300, Rangel Perez Sardinha wrote:
After research on the web i did not find nothing about daylight saving time on suse. How do i set it on suse 9.2?
You don't :-)
It is already done. Hoewever, if you want to modify your time zone settings, yast does it.
-- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
Has anybody given any though what we USer are to do about the fact that our idiot Congress extended it for a month in their energy bill (instead of promoting renewable energy)? Can you say "Y2K"? -- "When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist." -- Archbishop Helder Camara
Mike, On Friday 16 September 2005 18:19, Mike Grello wrote:
...
Has anybody given any though what we USer are to do about the fact that our idiot Congress extended it for a month in their energy bill (instead of promoting renewable energy)? Can you say "Y2K"?
What on Earth is the problem? And what the hell does it have in common with Y2K?? We'll all be running new or updated software long before those changes go into effect in 2007. It's hardly a problem. Randall Schulz
On Friday 16 September 2005 10:40 pm, Randall R Schulz wrote:
Mike,
On Friday 16 September 2005 18:19, Mike Grello wrote:
...
Has anybody given any though what we USer are to do about the fact that our idiot Congress extended it for a month in their energy bill (instead of promoting renewable energy)? Can you say "Y2K"?
What on Earth is the problem? And what the hell does it have in common with Y2K??
We'll all be running new or updated software long before those changes go into effect in 2007. It's hardly a problem.
Randall Schulz
Far seeing remediators, after having over thirty years of warning, started work in 1998 (yeah I know someone who started before that too, and I was writing compliant code in 1980), most projects began mid-1999. Yeah, we got plenty of time; listen, not many people know this, but my Grandfather holds the original deed to the Brooklyn bridge, and he left it to me; it's a real money maker! There was *NO* reason to create this potential problem, it will solve nothing. (It's lighter while I am coming home from/work school, but darker when I am leaving for work/school - a wash - oh did I mention headlights don't run on electricity). -- A long memory is the most subversive idea in America.
Mike, On Friday 16 September 2005 20:00, Mike Grello wrote:
...
There was *NO* reason to create this potential problem, it will solve nothing. (It's lighter while I am coming home from/work school, but darker when I am leaving for work/school - a wash - oh did I mention headlights don't run on electricity).
There is NO PROBLEM. There is not even a potential problem. Someone updates some tables of DST starting and ending dates. Case closed. The U.S. congress is not the only legislative body changing DST boundaries, you know. The problem, sir, is entirely within your mind. Please find some other windmill at which to tilt. Randall Schulz
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2005-09-16 at 21:19 -0400, Mike Grello wrote:
You don't :-)
It is already done. Hoewever, if you want to modify your time zone settings, yast does it.
Has anybody given any though what we USer are to do about the fact that our idiot Congress extended it for a month in their energy bill (instead of promoting renewable energy)? Can you say "Y2K"?
It has nothing to do with Y2K. You must know that daylight changes are movable, depending on what the legislators of each country decide each time they want to decide things: therefore, the systems contains tables defining years in advance those dates and times that the software has to change time; and those tables are independent for each country. The legislators want to change dates? So be it. Software maintainers change dates accordingly. No big deal. You want to complaint that changing the time is a nuisance? Yes, it is. That the hour should be stable and fixed all year round? I agree. That Bush is a...? I don't care, he is not my president, and this is a Linux mail list, not a political one. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFDLAb5tTMYHG2NR9URAsxFAJ9KGekPDkAu7dRkV2DtsXpMqBnLCwCdHPJ1 xQrn5Ug7QtS+UhMPy04VZNg= =U2TR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Saturday 17 September 2005 08:07 am, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Friday 2005-09-16 at 21:19 -0400, Mike Grello wrote:
You don't :-)
It is already done. Hoewever, if you want to modify your time zone settings, yast does it.
Has anybody given any though what we USer are to do about the fact that our idiot Congress extended it for a month in their energy bill (instead of promoting renewable energy)? Can you say "Y2K"?
It has nothing to do with Y2K. You must know that daylight changes are movable, depending on what the legislators of each country decide each time they want to decide things: therefore, the systems contains tables defining years in advance those dates and times that the software has to change time; and those tables are independent for each country. The legislators want to change dates? So be it. Software maintainers change dates accordingly. No big deal.
You want to complaint that changing the time is a nuisance? Yes, it is. That the hour should be stable and fixed all year round? I agree. That Bush is a...? I don't care, he is not my president, and this is a Linux mail list, not a political one.
-- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
So, my microwave or VCR will somehow notice the change? The *embedded* (remember embedded) processors in my cities traffic control system, etc. will automatically notice the difference? That is why it is like Y2K; computers aren't the only things that use "computers". Some of those "computers", embedded and hardwired, use Linux. The cost to replace those chips were pretty significant in 2000, now just 7 years later we have to do it again, and *for no reason*. oh, Cheers! -- "My country, right or wrong" is a thing that no patriot would think of saying, except in a desperate case. It is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober." -- G.K. Chesterton, "The Defendant"
On Saturday 17 September 2005 19:42, Mike Grello wrote:
So, my microwave or VCR will somehow notice the change? The *embedded* (remember embedded) processors in my cities traffic control system, etc. will automatically notice the difference? That is why it is like Y2K; computers aren't the only things that use "computers". Some of those "computers", embedded and hardwired, use Linux. The cost to replace those chips were pretty significant in 2000, now just 7 years later we have to do it again, and *for no reason*.
Why? What on earth does your city have in its "traffic control system" that isn't remote controlled? I can't imagine anything useful in a traffic environment that would be totally self sufficient and at the same time reliant on having the correct time Note that by far the most that was said about Y2K was totally exaggerated. Most systems just continued working just fine and didn't have to be replaced
On Saturday 17 September 2005 01:49 pm, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Saturday 17 September 2005 19:42, Mike Grello wrote:
So, my microwave or VCR will somehow notice the change? The *embedded* (remember embedded) processors in my cities traffic control system, etc. will automatically notice the difference? That is why it is like Y2K; computers aren't the only things that use "computers". Some of those "computers", embedded and hardwired, use Linux. The cost to replace those chips were pretty significant in 2000, now just 7 years later we have to do it again, and *for no reason*.
Why? What on earth does your city have in its "traffic control system" that isn't remote controlled? I can't imagine anything useful in a traffic environment that would be totally self sufficient and at the same time reliant on having the correct time
Note that by far the most that was said about Y2K was totally exaggerated. Most systems just continued working just fine and didn't have to be replaced
I worked on Y2K issues, and yes much of it was hype, lots of it was hard work. -- Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron. Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890 - 1969), From a speech before the American Society of Newspaper Editors, April 16, 1963
On Saturday 17 September 2005 13:49, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Saturday 17 September 2005 19:42, Mike Grello wrote:
So, my microwave or VCR will somehow notice the change? The *embedded* (remember embedded) processors in my cities traffic control system, etc. will automatically notice the difference? That is why it is like Y2K; computers aren't the only things that use "computers". Some of those "computers", embedded and hardwired, use Linux. The cost to replace those chips were pretty significant in 2000, now just 7 years later we have to do it again, and *for no reason*.
Why? What on earth does your city have in its "traffic control system" that isn't remote controlled? I can't imagine anything useful in a traffic environment that would be totally self sufficient and at the same time reliant on having the correct time
Where I live in South Florida -- not exactly a third world country -- the traffic lights around my place are not on remote control. I'm sure there are probably others, but the only place I am reasonably certain does have this feature is Los Angeles. The traffic lights around here are programmed to change their cyclic patterns based on day of the week and time of day. During rush hour on weekdays the lights on streets in certain directions stay green longer than during non-peak travel hours. On weekends the patterns are different. Starting late at night when traffic is just a dribble until early in the morning the light just flash red or yellow. When there is a big event at the stadium nearby the event security people go to the control boxes at each street intersection around the stadium and manually override the light changes using a button on a cable physically connected to the boxes. Daylight savings time will change at a date different from what the control boxes' programming understands. All these control boxes will not properly estimate peak-traffic times and possibly cause more congestion. All these light controllers have to be reprogrammed to the new schedule. Again, for no reason. Daylight savings time serves no real purpose. If they want to change something about daylight savings time, they should just eliminate it.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2005-09-17 at 16:08 -0400, Synthetic Cartoonz wrote: ...
Daylight savings time will change at a date different from what the control boxes' programming understands. All these control boxes will not properly estimate peak-traffic times and possibly cause more congestion. All these light controllers have to be reprogrammed to the new schedule. Again, for no reason.
Yes, you have a point there. This point was not stated when Mike Grello "exploded". A change in daylight savings settings, as asked by the original poster, is a non issue for users of SuSE linux, using normal computers. It is a probem for emmbedded computers, specially if they can not be remotely updated, and even more if it is a piece of code instead of a table as in linux.
Daylight savings time serves no real purpose. If they want to change something about daylight savings time, they should just eliminate it.
I would agree there. Time is a reference, and a reference that shifts around is no good. IMO. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFDLL1btTMYHG2NR9URAiZcAJ9tS7uvMhUMX1fGslQXRQ/6IKomCwCglw4u PWK5VgC7oRr3wnPybKGJbs0= =Glg5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Toonz, On Saturday 17 September 2005 13:08, Synthetic Cartoonz wrote:
....
Daylight savings time will change at a date different from what the control boxes' programming understands. All these control boxes will not properly estimate peak-traffic times and possibly cause more congestion. All these light controllers have to be reprogrammed to the new schedule. Again, for no reason.
Obviously, there is a reason. To optimize traffic flow w.r.t. actual patterns of human activity in the respective areas.
Daylight savings time serves no real purpose.
Does it actually harm you or hinder your life activities? Why do you let a clock dictate your own activity patterns?
If they want to change something about daylight savings time, they should just eliminate it.
That is your opinion. Did you make it known to your elected representatives when the pertinent bill was before congress? Randall Schulz
On Saturday 17 September 2005 21:53, Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Saturday 17 September 2005 13:08, Synthetic Cartoonz wrote:
....
Daylight savings time will change at a date different from what the control boxes' programming understands. All these control boxes will not properly estimate peak-traffic times and possibly cause more congestion. All these light controllers have to be reprogrammed to the new schedule. Again, for no reason.
Obviously, there is a reason. To optimize traffic flow w.r.t. actual patterns of human activity in the respective areas.
You misunderstand. Yes, the light controllers will require a programming change due to a previously unforseen change in the daylight savings time schedule. A change that is being forced that has no rational reason behind it -- that's what the "no reason" refers to.
Daylight savings time serves no real purpose.
Does it actually harm you or hinder your life activities? Why do you let a clock dictate your own activity patterns?
Let's say the boss expects you to be in the office at a particular time. Or your customer is promised to have a daily report delivered at a particular hour and you can be fined for missing the service level agreement. Or you have a doctor's appointment -- better yet -- a court case at a specific time. (Or worse -- your wedding at a particular time.) Everyone has a time structure to deal with in their life in some way.
If they want to change something about daylight savings time, they should just eliminate it.
That is your opinion. Did you make it known to your elected representatives when the pertinent bill was before congress?
I pester my congress-critter constantly. Not that she's smart enough to know anything about anything remotely technical.
Oh Pseudonymous One, On Saturday 17 September 2005 19:17, Synthetic Cartoonz wrote:
...
Does it actually harm you or hinder your life activities? Why do you let a clock dictate your own activity patterns?
Let's say the boss expects you to be in the office at a particular time. Or your customer is promised to have a daily report delivered at a particular hour and you can be fined for missing the service level agreement. Or you have a doctor's appointment -- better yet -- a court case at a specific time. (Or worse -- your wedding at a particular time.) Everyone has a time structure to deal with in their life in some way.
If you want me to believe this (daylight savings time) is a serious problem for you, then you must accept that I cannot hold your intellect in very high esteem. You're probably always running late (not to mention running red lights, speeding and generally posing a much greater menace than sub-optimal light timings for one hour twice a day).
If they want to change something about daylight savings time, they should just eliminate it.
That is your opinion. Did you make it known to your elected representatives when the pertinent bill was before congress?
I pester my congress-critter constantly. Not that she's smart enough to know anything about anything remotely technical.
If you're technically-minded enough to be so sure you understand this better than your elected representatives, then surely you're capable of coping with the exigencies of daylight savings time? Me thinks thou doth protest too much. Again, there are real issues with which to concern ourselves, DST is in the noise. Randall Schulz
Oh pompous one
Oh Pseudonymous One,
Synthetic Cartoonz wrote:
...
Does it actually harm you or hinder your life activities? Why do you let a clock dictate your own activity patterns?
Let's say the boss expects you to be in the office at a particular time. Or your customer is promised to have a daily report delivered at a particular hour and you can be fined for missing the service level agreement. Or you have a doctor's appointment -- better yet -- a court case at a specific time. (Or worse -- your wedding at a particular time.) Everyone has a time structure to deal with in their life in some way.
If you want me to believe this (daylight savings time) is a serious problem for you, then you must accept that I cannot hold your intellect in very high esteem. You're probably always running late (not to mention running red lights, speeding and generally posing a much greater menace than sub-optimal light timings for one hour twice a day).
As you presume -- based on apparent psychic knowledge -- that you know my personal behaviors you must accept that I cannot hold your intellect in very high esteem. I am typically early or at worse on time, and I plan ahead, so I do not have to rush. My concerns about an arbitrary DST rescheduling are displayed in the examples above that involve other people and will introduce a very wide spread coding and testing cycle for a great many people. Your indifferent attitude is horrendously selfish. Perhaps time doesn't matter to you, because (and I am only guessing and did not consult the psychic friends network) you are homeless and enjoy it or independently wealthy and retired. If you've somehow achieved a personal nirvana that requires you don't ever look at a clock then Congratulations. But if you cared enough to listen you would understand that time effects everyone else. If you don't care, why do you keep responding?
Dear Anonymous Coward, On Saturday 17 September 2005 21:24, Synthetic Cartoonz wrote:
Oh pompous one
Pompous? I think we're using different dictionaries. You, however, are displaying condescension and paternalism in your insistence in protecting people from something that you admit doesn't adversely affect you.
...
If you want me to believe this (daylight savings time) is a serious problem for you, then you must accept that I cannot hold your intellect in very high esteem. You're probably always running late (not to mention running red lights, speeding and generally posing a much greater menace than sub-optimal light timings for one hour twice a day).
As you presume -- based on apparent psychic knowledge -- that you know my personal behaviors you must accept that I cannot hold your intellect in very high esteem. I am typically early or at worse on time, and I plan ahead, so I do not have to rush.
Well, I'm glad to hear that. So daylight savings time does not adversely affect you. Do you think that while you can easily accommodate DST, others need to be protected from it?
My concerns about an arbitrary DST rescheduling are displayed in the examples above that involve other people and will introduce a very wide spread coding and testing cycle for a great many people. Your indifferent attitude is horrendously selfish. Perhaps time doesn't matter to you, because (and I am only guessing and did not consult the psychic friends network) you are homeless and enjoy it or independently wealthy and retired. If you've somehow achieved a personal nirvana that requires you don't ever look at a clock then Congratulations.
Cut the sarcasm, will you, please? What the clock displays when the sun comes up and goes down does not matter to me. Why should it? It's all entirely arbitrary. Naturally, the passage of time, how much I have in a day, how long I'll live, do matter to me. DST start and end dates have nothing to do with these aspects of time. You've now confirmed my earlier suspicion: that you believe it's up to you to protect others from the ravages of DST. While their reasons may or may not be valid (and may not even have been honestly stated), clearly Congress did not change the DST start and end dates just to toss a monkey wrench into various societal gears. If you believe they did, then I must question you true motives in putting for this argument. Do you simply believe that government is by its very nature a bad thing? Are you an anarchist? Do you believe you alone (and those who agree with you) should be in charge of all these matters? I remain completely unconvinced that this is a real issue. It is trivially accommodated within existing technological means, as we've already covered. People have been dealing with it for decades without serious impact.
But if you cared enough to listen you would understand that time effects everyone else. If you don't care, why do you keep responding?
Why do people debate? I care about the argument. If you don't think this is worthwhile, bow out yourself. I am, for the moment, anyway, trying to get you to see the error in your reasoning and to concede, as gracefully as you can manage at this point, that your objections are, at best, much ado about nothing and at worst, overbearing, condescending and paternalistic. Randall Schulz
On Sunday 18 September 2005 12:57 am, Randall R Schulz wrote:
Dear Anonymous Coward,
On Saturday 17 September 2005 21:24, Synthetic Cartoonz wrote:
Oh pompous one
Pompous? I think we're using different dictionaries.
You, however, are displaying condescension and paternalism in your insistence in protecting people from something that you admit doesn't adversely affect you. [stuff cut]
That is what we do as programmers. We make the big scary system, which we have no problem dealing with, safe and comfortable for those of lesser understanding. Delivering a system on which your user can hurt himself is the quickest route to the unemployment line. I am sorry if our ingrained habits offend you. -- There's nothing in the middle of the road but yellow stripes and dead armadillos. -- Jim Hightower, Texas Agricultural Commissioner
Mike, On Saturday 17 September 2005 22:27, Mike Grello wrote:
On Sunday 18 September 2005 12:57 am, Randall R Schulz wrote:
Dear Anonymous Coward,
On Saturday 17 September 2005 21:24, Synthetic Cartoonz wrote:
Oh pompous one
Pompous? I think we're using different dictionaries.
You, however, are displaying condescension and paternalism in your insistence in protecting people from something that you admit doesn't adversely affect you.
[stuff cut]
That is what we do as programmers. We make the big scary system, which we have no problem dealing with, safe and comfortable for those of lesser understanding. Delivering a system on which your user can hurt himself is the quickest route to the unemployment line.
I have made my living as a programmer for over 25 years. I know what we do. And if your claim about losing a job for making an unsafe system were true (or were the rule rather than the exception), then software would probably more reliable (and usable, and free from unwanted or irreversible behaviors, etc.) than it now is. Nonetheless, daylight savings time is not a software system, nor is altering its starting and ending dates a software system.
I am sorry if our ingrained habits offend you.
Are you? If so, why? Randall Schulz
On Sunday 18 September 2005 02:09 am, Randall R Schulz wrote: [stuff cut] we are getting nowhere. -- I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity. Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890 - 1969)
On Sunday 18 September 2005 00:57, Randall R Schulz wrote:
Dear Anonymous Synthetic Cartoonz wrote:
Oh pompous one
Pompous? I think we're using different dictionaries.
You, however, are displaying condescension and paternalism in your insistence in protecting people from something that you admit doesn't adversely affect you.
The only one displaying such an attitude is you. The DST problem doesn't affect you, so nobody else should bother worrying about it. When the school zone warning lights don't come on at the proper time and a few tots get squashed then I'll remember that Randall R Schwartz, Emperor Of Space Time, commanded it wasn't worth worrying about.
So daylight savings time does not adversely affect you. Do you think that while you can easily accommodate DST, others need to be protected from it?
As has been expressed here and by many others with many examples time keeping affects people. Many people trust time keeping systems. We've hooked our infrastructure to time-keeping systems to better manage them. When those systems cease being trustworthy then varying degrees of mayhem results. ...
If you've somehow achieved a personal nirvana that requires you don't ever look at a clock then Congratulations.
Cut the sarcasm, will you, please?
What the clock displays when the sun comes up and goes down does not matter to me. Why should it? It's all entirely arbitrary.
Naturally, the passage of time, how much I have in a day, how long I'll live, do matter to me. DST start and end dates have nothing to do with these aspects of time.
You say I'm sarcastic and then you confirm exactly what I said. Time keeping matters to other people. The fact it doesn't matter to you is not reason enough that other people must obey your Que Sera Sera dictate to the masses. By the way, does that sun-goes-up, sun-goes-down, time-is-arbitrary excuse work with your boss when you show up late? I'll have to plan to show up late to work one day and try it out. I suspect I'll be referred to HR for a drug test.
You've now confirmed my earlier suspicion: that you believe it's up to you to protect others from the ravages of DST.
It is a programmer's job to protect people from the dangers of systems that are not perfectly predictable or inadequately managed. What do you think a programmer's job is? Showing up to work "whenever" and drinking coffee? [snip pseudopolitical silliness]
I remain completely unconvinced that this is a real issue. It is trivially accommodated within existing technological means, as we've already covered.
Excluding the previous World War I and II time fudging policies, the current attempt at a Federal DST schedule began in the 60s, was tweaked in the early 70s, and amended in the mid-80s. There are not many computer systems of any importance still functioning from that era or before it. Many of the current "technological means" that accommodate DST have been created and operate under the assumption (yes, an incorrect assumption) that the schedule set by law doesn't change. Yes, badly engineered systems. But, if everything coded before us was done perfectly then few of us would have jobs. Then again, since time doesn't matter to you why should anyone bother accommodating it at all? Hakuna Matata, baby. Don't Worry, Be Happy.
People have been dealing with it for decades without serious impact.
People have been dealing with a known schedule that had not changed since the time before everything was trusted to computers. ...
Still an Anonymous Coward, eh? On Sunday 18 September 2005 05:05, Synthetic Cartoonz wrote:
On Sunday 18 September 2005 00:57, Randall R Schulz wrote:
Dear Anonymous Coward
...
When the school zone warning lights don't come on at the proper time and a few tots get squashed then I'll remember that Randall R Schwartz, Emperor Of Space Time, commanded it wasn't worth worrying about.
No problem. When you find this Randall Schwartz, tell him "hi" for me. And surely these "squashed tots" won't be the responsibility of the person driving the vehicle that squashed them, will it? Of course not. The carnage caused by automobiles doesn't concern you. Only the horrors of government-mandated changes in DST.
So daylight savings time does not adversely affect you. Do you think that while you can easily accommodate DST, others need to be protected from it?
As has been expressed here and by many others with many examples time keeping affects people. Many people trust time keeping systems. We've hooked our infrastructure to time-keeping systems to better manage them. When those systems cease being trustworthy then varying degrees of mayhem results.
Then the problem is blind trust in technological systems, not nailing down DST. You said it should be eliminated. That's going to cause just as much trouble (if any) as moving the starting and ending dates.
...
If you've somehow achieved a personal nirvana that requires you don't ever look at a clock then Congratulations.
Cut the sarcasm, will you, please?
What the clock displays when the sun comes up and goes down does not matter to me. Why should it? It's all entirely arbitrary.
Naturally, the passage of time, how much I have in a day, how long I'll live, do matter to me. DST start and end dates have nothing to do with these aspects of time.
You say I'm sarcastic and then you confirm exactly what I said. Time keeping matters to other people. The fact it doesn't matter to you is not reason enough that other people must obey your Que Sera Sera dictate to the masses.
I did not say time-keeping does not matter to me. I said the alignment of the clock with astronomical phenomena does not matter because it is arbitrary. I don't know about you, but where I live the radio and TV stations note the upcoming time changes several times in the days prior to the switch. They probably will be able to keep track of the legislated change and be able to issue such notices correctly. There's no reason to be caught unaware of the DST change and if someone is, it's probably because their life is largely independent of such concerns.
By the way, does that sun-goes-up, sun-goes-down, time-is-arbitrary excuse work with your boss when you show up late? I'll have to plan to show up late to work one day and try it out. I suspect I'll be referred to HR for a drug test.
What a joke. Do you work from some kind of totalitarian perfectionist, just like yourself who suspects a person of drug use if they make a mistake? By the way, what will be disclosed by the drug test you're going to be subjected to the day you do eventually make some kind of mistake?
You've now confirmed my earlier suspicion: that you believe it's up to you to protect others from the ravages of DST.
It is a programmer's job to protect people from the dangers of systems that are not perfectly predictable or inadequately managed. What do you think a programmer's job is? Showing up to work "whenever" and drinking coffee?
Then do so. Harrangue the manufacturers of systems with embedded clocks to use the year-and-a-half-long forewarning they received that this change is coming to prepare for it. Deal with the local personnel who specify the purchase of the ones that don't accommodate the change despite the many months of advanced warning they get.
[snip pseudopolitical silliness]
You're admitting your dictatorial bent?
I remain completely unconvinced that this is a real issue. It is trivially accommodated within existing technological means, as we've already covered.
Excluding the previous World War I and II time fudging policies, the current attempt at a Federal DST schedule began in the 60s, was tweaked in the early 70s, and amended in the mid-80s. There are not many computer systems of any importance still functioning from that era or before it. Many of the current "technological means" that accommodate DST have been created and operate under the assumption (yes, an incorrect assumption) that the schedule set by law doesn't change. Yes, badly engineered systems. But, if everything coded before us was done perfectly then few of us would have jobs. Then again, since time doesn't matter to you why should anyone bother accommodating it at all? Hakuna Matata, baby. Don't Worry, Be Happy.
Your contention about clock-based system is far from universally true and for those systems to which it does apply is simply an indictment of the technological competence of their designers. You want to forbid DST changes (but still eliminate it entirely) simply to coddel the manufacturers of bad hardware. That's foolish. Keep in mind that these automated, clock-bases systems already include rather fancy calendric math, since the DST start and end dates are specified in terms of the "nth Sunday of April / October." If these systems are autonomous and free-running, then the sophistication of their software w.r.t. to calendar calculations is already such that altering them for new start / end criteria would be trivial. And if they don't perform such calculations, they must be manually adjusted, and again, I'm pretty sure the agencies that maintain them can deal with the change in DST start and end dates.
People have been dealing with it for decades without serious impact.
People have been dealing with a known schedule that had not changed since the time before everything was trusted to computers.
It is the responsibility of technologists to accommodate changes, whether or not they're advancements, not to hold them back.
...
Randall Schulz
Please may I make a request? This item has now gone way off topic and has turned into a slanging match. Please, if you really wish to continue take it off list. Or, alternatively, agree to differ :-) Come on guys, shake hands and be done with it. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== Take care. Kevan Farmer 34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR
Mike Grello wrote:
So, my microwave or VCR will somehow notice the change? The *embedded* (remember embedded) processors in my cities traffic control system, etc. will automatically notice the difference? That is why it is like Y2K; computers aren't the only things that use "computers". Some of those "computers", embedded and hardwired, use Linux. The cost to replace those chips were pretty significant in 2000, now just 7 years later we have to do it again, and *for no reason*.
I have to change the hour on all my domestic appliances, and the utility meters all work on GMT rather than switching when daylight saving comes in. The *BIG* problem is the lack of a proper daylight saving flag *IN* the tz_offset! Try displaying the correct calendar for March/April or October/November when you don't know the daylight saving zone your client is in ;) -- Lester Caine ----------------------------- L.S.Caine Electronic Services
Mike, On Saturday 17 September 2005 10:42, Mike Grello wrote:
...
So, my microwave or VCR will somehow notice the change? The *embedded* (remember embedded) processors in my cities traffic control system, etc. will automatically notice the difference? That is why it is like Y2K; computers aren't the only things that use "computers". Some of those "computers", embedded and hardwired, use Linux. The cost to replace those chips were pretty significant in 2000, now just 7 years later we have to do it again, and *for no reason*.
God. Get a clue. And modern electronics, for cryin' out loud. Any recent VCR sets its internal clock from time signals in the broadcasts it receives. In mine, a Sony, the signals even survive the cable box _and_ the TiVo. And why in the world does your microwave oven need to know what time it is? And even if it does, you still have to change many of the timepieces in your abode, do you not? Those connected to outside information sources (computers, media devices) if they're worth half what you paid for them, will adjust themselves. The rest are up to you. Given how irate you are about this, clearly you're aware of the DST changes. If you're setting too many clocks, you've got too many clocks.
oh, Cheers!
Can't you find something real to be peeved about? Randall Schulz
On Saturday 17 September 2005 02:50 pm, Randall R Schulz wrote: [stuff cut]
Can't you find something real to be peeved about?
Randall Schulz
Yeah, but this is a Linux mail-lost not a political one. -- Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. -- William Pitt, 1783
On Saturday 17 September 2005 03:17 pm, Mike Grello wrote:
On Saturday 17 September 2005 02:50 pm, Randall R Schulz wrote: [stuff cut]
Can't you find something real to be peeved about?
Randall Schulz
Yeah, but this is a Linux mail-lost not a political one.
-- Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. -- William Pitt, 1783
mail-lost; pffft, that's pretty funny! (why do you suppose KMail picked up my last message .sig; I am sure it is formatted correctly) -- Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
Mike Grello wrote:
On Saturday 17 September 2005 02:50 pm, Randall R Schulz wrote: [stuff cut]
Can't you find something real to be peeved about?
Randall Schulz
Yeah, but this is a Linux mail-lost not a political one.
I don't remember losing any mail. I received every message I'm aware of. ;-)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2005-09-17 at 13:42 -0400, Mike Grello wrote:
So, my microwave or VCR will somehow notice the change? The *embedded*
I thought we were talking *linux* here. But as a matter of fact, my VCR would work as happily as ever, as it gets the time from one of the national network stations, there is a standard for that. Unfortunately for you, if you live in the states, that standard is not correctly applied by all stations: some will give New York time in California because they simply broadcast the signal without reinjecting it after correction for time zone. There was an article in the IEEE spectrum not many years back about this, that's why I happen to know.
(remember embedded) processors in my cities traffic control system, etc. will automatically notice the difference?
If they are well designed, it won't matter. Good systems rely on UTC (GMT), like Linux does: even if Linux shows you your local time, internally it is working in UTC, that doesn't have daylight savings and is universal. Or they take their time from some central time reference.
That is why it is like Y2K; computers aren't the only things that use "computers". Some of those "computers", embedded and hardwired, use Linux. The cost to replace those chips were pretty significant in 2000, now just 7 years later we have to do it again, and *for no reason*.
Pity. Well, it is not the code, it is a table. And any way, linux/unix has its own Y2K equivalent problem lurking in 2038. You should have specified you were talking about embedded Linux systems. You have a point there. However, as my field is electronics, that money replacing chips would come nice :-P Four your info, I would ban daylight savings of the face of the world altogether. Dream on! - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFDLLgXtTMYHG2NR9URAr5NAJ9Y2kGCpASdreReXV+CFuqgX0l8vgCfXb3e 7Zzi9oJRYsFhWyZp0tPC4ro= =yCTf -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (13)
-
Alexandr Malusek -
Anders Johansson -
Carlos E. R. -
Charles philip Chan -
James Knott -
JB -
Kevanf1 -
Lester Caine -
Michael W Cocke -
Mike Grello -
Randall R Schulz -
Rangel Perez Sardinha -
Synthetic Cartoonz