On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 09:23:57 -0400, you wrote:

On 16 Sep 2005, rangel.sardinha@pragyatechnologies.com wrote:

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After research on the web i did not find nothing about daylight saving time on suse. How do i set it on suse 9.2?

Set your hardware clock to UTC (GMT) and change your settings in YaST==> "System"==> "Date & Time". Linux will then manage DST automatically.

Um, not this year, AFAIK. Shrub is changing the effective DST dates in the face of every piece of electronics that will need to be reprogrammed. I wish we had a literate president. Mike- -- Mornings: Evolution in action. Only the grumpy will survive. -- Please note - Due to the intense volume of spam, we have installed site-wide spam filters at catherders.com. If email from you bounces, try non-HTML, non-encoded, non-attachments.

On 16 Sep 2005, cocke@catherders.com wrote:

Um, not this year, AFAIK. Shrub is changing the effective DST dates in the face of every piece of electronics that will need to be reprogrammed.

Not in Canada, where I am from. We still haven't decided whether to follow your lead. Also, I am not too sure about Brasil (where the OP is from) either.

I wish we had a literate president.

Better luck next time ;-). Charles -- "All language designers are arrogant. Goes with the territory..." (By Larry Wall)

Randall R Schulz wrote:

(*) This correction of fact should not be construed of an endorsement of the worst president America has ever had. ... Sorry, I just couldn't stop myself.

Well, at least he accepted responsibility for Hurricane Katrina. ;-)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2005-09-16 at 09:54 -0300, Rangel Perez Sardinha wrote:

After research on the web i did not find nothing about daylight saving time on suse. How do i set it on suse 9.2?

You don't :-) It is already done. Hoewever, if you want to modify your time zone settings, yast does it. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFDKw7LtTMYHG2NR9URAg5xAJ9C8Pdw5N7c8aZdGUvwFhIXtonU1QCfVCHF UHwDY1cRnmk06WhKy3JewHk= =oJM0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Mike, On Friday 16 September 2005 18:19, Mike Grello wrote:

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Has anybody given any though what we USer are to do about the fact that our idiot Congress extended it for a month in their energy bill (instead of promoting renewable energy)? Can you say "Y2K"?

What on Earth is the problem? And what the hell does it have in common with Y2K?? We'll all be running new or updated software long before those changes go into effect in 2007. It's hardly a problem. Randall Schulz

On Friday 16 September 2005 10:40 pm, Randall R Schulz wrote:

Mike,

On Friday 16 September 2005 18:19, Mike Grello wrote:

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Has anybody given any though what we USer are to do about the fact that our idiot Congress extended it for a month in their energy bill (instead of promoting renewable energy)? Can you say "Y2K"?

What on Earth is the problem? And what the hell does it have in common with Y2K??

We'll all be running new or updated software long before those changes go into effect in 2007. It's hardly a problem.

Randall Schulz

Far seeing remediators, after having over thirty years of warning, started work in 1998 (yeah I know someone who started before that too, and I was writing compliant code in 1980), most projects began mid-1999. Yeah, we got plenty of time; listen, not many people know this, but my Grandfather holds the original deed to the Brooklyn bridge, and he left it to me; it's a real money maker! There was *NO* reason to create this potential problem, it will solve nothing. (It's lighter while I am coming home from/work school, but darker when I am leaving for work/school - a wash - oh did I mention headlights don't run on electricity). -- A long memory is the most subversive idea in America.

On Saturday 17 September 2005 08:07 am, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Friday 2005-09-16 at 21:19 -0400, Mike Grello wrote:

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You don't :-)

It is already done. Hoewever, if you want to modify your time zone settings, yast does it.

Has anybody given any though what we USer are to do about the fact that our idiot Congress extended it for a month in their energy bill (instead of promoting renewable energy)? Can you say "Y2K"?

It has nothing to do with Y2K. You must know that daylight changes are movable, depending on what the legislators of each country decide each time they want to decide things: therefore, the systems contains tables defining years in advance those dates and times that the software has to change time; and those tables are independent for each country. The legislators want to change dates? So be it. Software maintainers change dates accordingly. No big deal.

You want to complaint that changing the time is a nuisance? Yes, it is. That the hour should be stable and fixed all year round? I agree. That Bush is a...? I don't care, he is not my president, and this is a Linux mail list, not a political one.

-- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

So, my microwave or VCR will somehow notice the change? The *embedded* (remember embedded) processors in my cities traffic control system, etc. will automatically notice the difference? That is why it is like Y2K; computers aren't the only things that use "computers". Some of those "computers", embedded and hardwired, use Linux. The cost to replace those chips were pretty significant in 2000, now just 7 years later we have to do it again, and *for no reason*. oh, Cheers! -- "My country, right or wrong" is a thing that no patriot would think of saying, except in a desperate case. It is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober." -- G.K. Chesterton, "The Defendant"

Mike Grello wrote:

So, my microwave or VCR will somehow notice the change? The *embedded* (remember embedded) processors in my cities traffic control system, etc. will automatically notice the difference? That is why it is like Y2K; computers aren't the only things that use "computers". Some of those "computers", embedded and hardwired, use Linux. The cost to replace those chips were pretty significant in 2000, now just 7 years later we have to do it again, and *for no reason*.

I have to change the hour on all my domestic appliances, and the utility meters all work on GMT rather than switching when daylight saving comes in. The *BIG* problem is the lack of a proper daylight saving flag *IN* the tz_offset! Try displaying the correct calendar for March/April or October/November when you don't know the daylight saving zone your client is in ;) -- Lester Caine ----------------------------- L.S.Caine Electronic Services

Mike, On Saturday 17 September 2005 10:42, Mike Grello wrote:

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So, my microwave or VCR will somehow notice the change? The *embedded* (remember embedded) processors in my cities traffic control system, etc. will automatically notice the difference? That is why it is like Y2K; computers aren't the only things that use "computers". Some of those "computers", embedded and hardwired, use Linux. The cost to replace those chips were pretty significant in 2000, now just 7 years later we have to do it again, and *for no reason*.

God. Get a clue. And modern electronics, for cryin' out loud. Any recent VCR sets its internal clock from time signals in the broadcasts it receives. In mine, a Sony, the signals even survive the cable box _and_ the TiVo. And why in the world does your microwave oven need to know what time it is? And even if it does, you still have to change many of the timepieces in your abode, do you not? Those connected to outside information sources (computers, media devices) if they're worth half what you paid for them, will adjust themselves. The rest are up to you. Given how irate you are about this, clearly you're aware of the DST changes. If you're setting too many clocks, you've got too many clocks.

oh, Cheers!

Can't you find something real to be peeved about? Randall Schulz

On Saturday 17 September 2005 03:17 pm, Mike Grello wrote:

On Saturday 17 September 2005 02:50 pm, Randall R Schulz wrote: [stuff cut]

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Can't you find something real to be peeved about?

Randall Schulz

Yeah, but this is a Linux mail-lost not a political one.

-- Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. -- William Pitt, 1783

mail-lost; pffft, that's pretty funny! (why do you suppose KMail picked up my last message .sig; I am sure it is formatted correctly) -- Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

On Saturday 17 September 2005 13:49, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Saturday 17 September 2005 19:42, Mike Grello wrote:

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So, my microwave or VCR will somehow notice the change? The *embedded* (remember embedded) processors in my cities traffic control system, etc. will automatically notice the difference? That is why it is like Y2K; computers aren't the only things that use "computers". Some of those "computers", embedded and hardwired, use Linux. The cost to replace those chips were pretty significant in 2000, now just 7 years later we have to do it again, and *for no reason*.

Why? What on earth does your city have in its "traffic control system" that isn't remote controlled? I can't imagine anything useful in a traffic environment that would be totally self sufficient and at the same time reliant on having the correct time

Where I live in South Florida -- not exactly a third world country -- the traffic lights around my place are not on remote control. I'm sure there are probably others, but the only place I am reasonably certain does have this feature is Los Angeles. The traffic lights around here are programmed to change their cyclic patterns based on day of the week and time of day. During rush hour on weekdays the lights on streets in certain directions stay green longer than during non-peak travel hours. On weekends the patterns are different. Starting late at night when traffic is just a dribble until early in the morning the light just flash red or yellow. When there is a big event at the stadium nearby the event security people go to the control boxes at each street intersection around the stadium and manually override the light changes using a button on a cable physically connected to the boxes. Daylight savings time will change at a date different from what the control boxes' programming understands. All these control boxes will not properly estimate peak-traffic times and possibly cause more congestion. All these light controllers have to be reprogrammed to the new schedule. Again, for no reason. Daylight savings time serves no real purpose. If they want to change something about daylight savings time, they should just eliminate it.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2005-09-17 at 16:08 -0400, Synthetic Cartoonz wrote: ...

Daylight savings time will change at a date different from what the control boxes' programming understands. All these control boxes will not properly estimate peak-traffic times and possibly cause more congestion. All these light controllers have to be reprogrammed to the new schedule. Again, for no reason.

Yes, you have a point there. This point was not stated when Mike Grello "exploded". A change in daylight savings settings, as asked by the original poster, is a non issue for users of SuSE linux, using normal computers. It is a probem for emmbedded computers, specially if they can not be remotely updated, and even more if it is a piece of code instead of a table as in linux.

Daylight savings time serves no real purpose. If they want to change something about daylight savings time, they should just eliminate it.

I would agree there. Time is a reference, and a reference that shifts around is no good. IMO. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFDLL1btTMYHG2NR9URAiZcAJ9tS7uvMhUMX1fGslQXRQ/6IKomCwCglw4u PWK5VgC7oRr3wnPybKGJbs0= =Glg5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Saturday 17 September 2005 21:53, Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Saturday 17 September 2005 13:08, Synthetic Cartoonz wrote:

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Daylight savings time will change at a date different from what the control boxes' programming understands. All these control boxes will not properly estimate peak-traffic times and possibly cause more congestion. All these light controllers have to be reprogrammed to the new schedule. Again, for no reason.

Obviously, there is a reason. To optimize traffic flow w.r.t. actual patterns of human activity in the respective areas.

You misunderstand. Yes, the light controllers will require a programming change due to a previously unforseen change in the daylight savings time schedule. A change that is being forced that has no rational reason behind it -- that's what the "no reason" refers to.

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Daylight savings time serves no real purpose.

Does it actually harm you or hinder your life activities? Why do you let a clock dictate your own activity patterns?

Let's say the boss expects you to be in the office at a particular time. Or your customer is promised to have a daily report delivered at a particular hour and you can be fined for missing the service level agreement. Or you have a doctor's appointment -- better yet -- a court case at a specific time. (Or worse -- your wedding at a particular time.) Everyone has a time structure to deal with in their life in some way.

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If they want to change something about daylight savings time, they should just eliminate it.

That is your opinion. Did you make it known to your elected representatives when the pertinent bill was before congress?

I pester my congress-critter constantly. Not that she's smart enough to know anything about anything remotely technical.

Oh pompous one

Oh Pseudonymous One,

Synthetic Cartoonz wrote:

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Does it actually harm you or hinder your life activities? Why do you let a clock dictate your own activity patterns?

Let's say the boss expects you to be in the office at a particular time. Or your customer is promised to have a daily report delivered at a particular hour and you can be fined for missing the service level agreement. Or you have a doctor's appointment -- better yet -- a court case at a specific time. (Or worse -- your wedding at a particular time.) Everyone has a time structure to deal with in their life in some way.

If you want me to believe this (daylight savings time) is a serious problem for you, then you must accept that I cannot hold your intellect in very high esteem. You're probably always running late (not to mention running red lights, speeding and generally posing a much greater menace than sub-optimal light timings for one hour twice a day).

As you presume -- based on apparent psychic knowledge -- that you know my personal behaviors you must accept that I cannot hold your intellect in very high esteem. I am typically early or at worse on time, and I plan ahead, so I do not have to rush. My concerns about an arbitrary DST rescheduling are displayed in the examples above that involve other people and will introduce a very wide spread coding and testing cycle for a great many people. Your indifferent attitude is horrendously selfish. Perhaps time doesn't matter to you, because (and I am only guessing and did not consult the psychic friends network) you are homeless and enjoy it or independently wealthy and retired. If you've somehow achieved a personal nirvana that requires you don't ever look at a clock then Congratulations. But if you cared enough to listen you would understand that time effects everyone else. If you don't care, why do you keep responding?

On Sunday 18 September 2005 12:57 am, Randall R Schulz wrote:

Dear Anonymous Coward,

On Saturday 17 September 2005 21:24, Synthetic Cartoonz wrote:

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Oh pompous one

Pompous? I think we're using different dictionaries.

You, however, are displaying condescension and paternalism in your insistence in protecting people from something that you admit doesn't adversely affect you. [stuff cut]

That is what we do as programmers. We make the big scary system, which we have no problem dealing with, safe and comfortable for those of lesser understanding. Delivering a system on which your user can hurt himself is the quickest route to the unemployment line. I am sorry if our ingrained habits offend you. -- There's nothing in the middle of the road but yellow stripes and dead armadillos. -- Jim Hightower, Texas Agricultural Commissioner

On Sunday 18 September 2005 02:09 am, Randall R Schulz wrote: [stuff cut] we are getting nowhere. -- I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity. Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890 - 1969)

Still an Anonymous Coward, eh? On Sunday 18 September 2005 05:05, Synthetic Cartoonz wrote:

On Sunday 18 September 2005 00:57, Randall R Schulz wrote:

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Dear Anonymous Coward

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When the school zone warning lights don't come on at the proper time and a few tots get squashed then I'll remember that Randall R Schwartz, Emperor Of Space Time, commanded it wasn't worth worrying about.

No problem. When you find this Randall Schwartz, tell him "hi" for me. And surely these "squashed tots" won't be the responsibility of the person driving the vehicle that squashed them, will it? Of course not. The carnage caused by automobiles doesn't concern you. Only the horrors of government-mandated changes in DST.

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So daylight savings time does not adversely affect you. Do you think that while you can easily accommodate DST, others need to be protected from it?

As has been expressed here and by many others with many examples time keeping affects people. Many people trust time keeping systems. We've hooked our infrastructure to time-keeping systems to better manage them. When those systems cease being trustworthy then varying degrees of mayhem results.

Then the problem is blind trust in technological systems, not nailing down DST. You said it should be eliminated. That's going to cause just as much trouble (if any) as moving the starting and ending dates.

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If you've somehow achieved a personal nirvana that requires you don't ever look at a clock then Congratulations.

Cut the sarcasm, will you, please?

What the clock displays when the sun comes up and goes down does not matter to me. Why should it? It's all entirely arbitrary.

Naturally, the passage of time, how much I have in a day, how long I'll live, do matter to me. DST start and end dates have nothing to do with these aspects of time.

You say I'm sarcastic and then you confirm exactly what I said. Time keeping matters to other people. The fact it doesn't matter to you is not reason enough that other people must obey your Que Sera Sera dictate to the masses.

I did not say time-keeping does not matter to me. I said the alignment of the clock with astronomical phenomena does not matter because it is arbitrary. I don't know about you, but where I live the radio and TV stations note the upcoming time changes several times in the days prior to the switch. They probably will be able to keep track of the legislated change and be able to issue such notices correctly. There's no reason to be caught unaware of the DST change and if someone is, it's probably because their life is largely independent of such concerns.

By the way, does that sun-goes-up, sun-goes-down, time-is-arbitrary excuse work with your boss when you show up late? I'll have to plan to show up late to work one day and try it out. I suspect I'll be referred to HR for a drug test.

What a joke. Do you work from some kind of totalitarian perfectionist, just like yourself who suspects a person of drug use if they make a mistake? By the way, what will be disclosed by the drug test you're going to be subjected to the day you do eventually make some kind of mistake?

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You've now confirmed my earlier suspicion: that you believe it's up to you to protect others from the ravages of DST.

It is a programmer's job to protect people from the dangers of systems that are not perfectly predictable or inadequately managed. What do you think a programmer's job is? Showing up to work "whenever" and drinking coffee?

Then do so. Harrangue the manufacturers of systems with embedded clocks to use the year-and-a-half-long forewarning they received that this change is coming to prepare for it. Deal with the local personnel who specify the purchase of the ones that don't accommodate the change despite the many months of advanced warning they get.

[snip pseudopolitical silliness]

You're admitting your dictatorial bent?

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I remain completely unconvinced that this is a real issue. It is trivially accommodated within existing technological means, as we've already covered.

Excluding the previous World War I and II time fudging policies, the current attempt at a Federal DST schedule began in the 60s, was tweaked in the early 70s, and amended in the mid-80s. There are not many computer systems of any importance still functioning from that era or before it. Many of the current "technological means" that accommodate DST have been created and operate under the assumption (yes, an incorrect assumption) that the schedule set by law doesn't change. Yes, badly engineered systems. But, if everything coded before us was done perfectly then few of us would have jobs. Then again, since time doesn't matter to you why should anyone bother accommodating it at all? Hakuna Matata, baby. Don't Worry, Be Happy.

Your contention about clock-based system is far from universally true and for those systems to which it does apply is simply an indictment of the technological competence of their designers. You want to forbid DST changes (but still eliminate it entirely) simply to coddel the manufacturers of bad hardware. That's foolish. Keep in mind that these automated, clock-bases systems already include rather fancy calendric math, since the DST start and end dates are specified in terms of the "nth Sunday of April / October." If these systems are autonomous and free-running, then the sophistication of their software w.r.t. to calendar calculations is already such that altering them for new start / end criteria would be trivial. And if they don't perform such calculations, they must be manually adjusted, and again, I'm pretty sure the agencies that maintain them can deal with the change in DST start and end dates.

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People have been dealing with it for decades without serious impact.

People have been dealing with a known schedule that had not changed since the time before everything was trusted to computers.

It is the responsibility of technologists to accommodate changes, whether or not they're advancements, not to hold them back.

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Randall Schulz