On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:56 AM, Michael A. Sterba wrote:

2. The only thing that does bug me about KDE 4.x is it's slow response time to inputs... like resizing windows. Now with that said, I only have this issue with the ATI cards and not the NVidia. So it's not really a dig against KDE but of ATI/AMD for still lagging on performance under Linux.

This really gets me. How is it ATI's fault that a new version of KDE doesn't work right when the previous one worked fine? That should be on the KDE team, not the ATI guys. KDE is the ones who've changed things. Is this an issue with KDE3 as well? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 24 December 2008 13:18:17 Larry Stotler wrote:  > This really gets me.  How is it ATI's fault that a new version of KDE  > doesn't work right when the previous one worked fine?   From what I've read, because KDE 4 uses a number of video features and modes that KDE 3 did not.  Due to lack of heavy use, these features were broken or slow in several drivers (including ATI and NVIDIA) when KDE 4 came out; the situation is much improved today, at least for NVIDIA. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On December Wednesday 24 2008, Rob OpenSuSE scratched these words onto a coconut shell, hoping for an answer:

2008/12/24 Jerry Houston :

...

Am I the only one who's happy with v11.1 and KDE4?

For me, 11.1 is a better release than 10.3 was at same stage.

KDE 4 was fine for doing basic things, it was the only Desktop I used during testing, pre-release. I had problems in RC1 when I tried to adjust things to my liking.

There are a lot of problem areas in 11.1; at the end of January or early february, most of the issues will be sorted by updates.

However some users will have been lost, because they tried it, and CD/DVD wouldn't boot, so they slap on Ubuntu 8.10, or Mint or PC Linux OS, and never get to see the advantages openSUSE has.

That is really sad. Because in all honesty, I cannot cope w/ Ubuntu until and unless they get some sort of Yast-like setup system. one location where the majority of things from customization to actual necessities can be easily setup. New printer.. no problem.. and who has not added some piece of hardware to a rock solid system, only to discover that the new bit of hardware heaven put your system into Hardware Hell, until you locate the one line of some configuration document. Just open up Yast, and it wont be too long until you find that nasty little bit of text that usually only needs to be checked or unchecked. :-) And we have so many unsung Suse folks who work their fingers to nubs w/ all the code, scripts and hard work that allow us to all have a really easy time setting everything up, and tweaking things, placing the furniture and hanging pictures, adding drapes and redecorating everything. And we can do all of that we wish, w/o doing something weird to the operating system. And for that all our friends @ Novell/ Suse Opensuse etc a heartfelt vote of thanks. You need not believe us either. just install almost any other distro, and count the time and effort to get it running, ( and here's the tricky part) ,See how long it takes to get the thing up and running w/ all of your "normal" customization. I have become ridiculously spoiled over time, so I set the bar really high. If you don't .... "relax is Linux" so you can pretty well guarantee you will eventually get the thing to work for you, and work as you wish, it'll just take a bit longer. I shall buy the boxed set once again. It's not much but it is much easier than trying to figure what the tip would be. :- D -- j Keep Saturn in Saturnalia -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Per Inge Oestmoen [12-24-08 15:53]:

One more thing:

When clicking on an image file in Konqueror 4 (or Dolphin) I can no longer get a full EXIF reading. That is also the case with Gwenview's latest incarnation.

Try gqview, it displays the fill exif. I prefer it to gwenview and it will display raw files if ufraw is installed. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

David Bolt wrote:

On Wed, 24 Dec 2008, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:-

...

I am confident that the errors and glitches will be fixed before soon. But it requires some effort.

One more thing:

When clicking on an image file in Konqueror 4 (or Dolphin) I can no longer get a full EXIF reading. That is also the case with Gwenview's latest incarnation.

With the KDE 3 counterparts, I could and can easily get the EXIF reading up by right clicking and choosing the appropriate dialog box area.

This loss of functionality has to be remedied!

Supposedly, it was planned to be in KDE4.2. My original bug report:

URL:https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=403036

was closed as an upstream issue and the following KDE bugs were cited:

URL:http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161848 URL:http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164695

This is why I've sworn off ever sending another bug report to Novell. At lease not as long as Binner has any say there. In the past any bugs that were indeed upstream would be forwarded by novell, and held open by novell till solved and incorporated. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008, John Andersen wrote:- <snip>

This is why I've sworn off ever sending another bug report to Novell.

Why? Most of the other bug reports I've filed have either been solved, or marked as duplicates of bugs which have been subsequently solved.

At lease not as long as Binner has any say there.

Ah, so this is an issue with a particular person.

In the past any bugs that were indeed upstream would be forwarded by novell, and held open by novell till solved and incorporated.

It would have been nice if Novell would have left the bug open until it was confirmed closed upstream, but wasn't necessary. And the report I made referred to EXIF information not being displayed in Dolphin. This supposedly has been added to KDE4.2. The fact that 11.1 missed that release is a pity, and quite possibly why they're aiming to release 11.2 with KDE4.3. Regards, David Bolt -- Team Acorn: http://www.distributed.net/ OGR-NG @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~1Mkeys/s | openSUSE 10.3 32b | openSUSE 11.0 32b | openSUSE 10.2 64b | openSUSE 10.3 64b | openSUSE 11.0 64b | TOS 4.02 | openSUSE 10.3 PPC | RISC OS 3.6 | RISC OS 3.11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Also, most of the time, free form feedback here is also brushed of by just saying: "go write a bug about it." Sometimes it is impossible to write a bug about something. For example: Bug 123123: "I do not like the direction openSUSE is going with KDE4." That, I think is the sentiment of quite a few old SuSE users. However, as a bug report, it would be discarded very fast and nobody would see it.

-- HG.

I'd be happy if they fixed the xulrunner bug in the update program (458663) and the fileshare/kdnetwork bug (447986) 447986 was sorta fixed where it stopped wanting to downgrade, but it still reports the patches are there and then zypper dies quietly. -- Michael S. Dunsavage -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

jfweber@gilweber.com wrote:

That is really sad. Because in all honesty, I cannot cope w/ Ubuntu until and unless they get some sort of Yast-like setup system. one location where the majority of things from customization to actual necessities can be easily setup.

Why not JF? You learn more that way. Yast is sweet, no doubt about it, but when something is not handled you find out how much of a crutch it really is. I just set up Ubuntu Server for use as a backup server to be located at a remote site syncing file structures with a companies primary server. It went smoothly, its a very light weight server tailored to a specific task, needing only to automatically synchronize certain data structures and provide samba services to the people at the remote site. Samba, ssh, cups, minimal postfix, virus scanning, rsync+unison, and a few odds and ends. It runs headless and is remotely managed. The truth is that ubuntu sets up most things just fine. It is not the unusable mess that people on this list like to paint it, and setting up manually (or with cups/Samba built in tools) is not that hard, and you actually LEARN something along the way. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Even though I like KDE 4 I am not going to 11.1 with KDE4 until someone releases a procedure/configuration/patch for KDE4 to run a little more efficiently. It currently takes too much memory and cpu cycles. 11.1 w/KDE 4 requires 768m more memory then 11.0/kde3.5 for almost the same performance. Simply opening the same test document with OO-3.0 (same OO version tested on both 11.0 and 11.1) takes literally 2 times longer just to open! This is the first time SuSE has released a product that I can't make fit on my machines. Dell Optiplex GX520 256m memory 2.8ghz P4. Purchased in 2006 so these are not old machines yet. Tim -----Original Message----- From: MikeDL [mailto:mikedl@comcast.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 1:27 PM To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] Am I the only one? On Wednesday 24 December 2008 11:12:53 Jerry Houston wrote:  > Am I the only one who's happy with v11.1 and KDE4?   Nope.  But the KDE 3 dead-enders are very vocal.   After the last several months with KDE 4.1 & 4.2, I hate living with the KDE 3 limitations on the systems I'm not ready to upgrade. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2008/12/24 14:19 (GMT-0500) Tim Ertl composed:

Even though I like KDE 4 I am not going to 11.1 with KDE4 until someone releases a procedure/configuration/patch for KDE4 to run a little more efficiently. It currently takes too much memory and cpu cycles. 11.1 w/KDE 4 requires 768m more memory then 11.0/kde3.5 for almost the same performance. Simply opening the same test document with OO-3.0 (same OO version tested on both 11.0 and 11.1) takes literally 2 times longer just to open! This is the first time SuSE has released a product that I can't make fit on my machines.

Dell Optiplex GX520 256m memory 2.8ghz P4. Purchased in 2006 so these are not old machines yet.

I find it hard to believe Dell was still getting away with selling business computers with so little RAM so recently. RAM is so cheap now it's insane to run a DDR or DDR2 desktop system on less than 1G RAM. I just bought enough to take all my Optiplexes to at least 1G. http://www.pricewatch.com/system_memory/ddr_pc3200_1gb.htm http://www.pricewatch.com/system_memory/ddr2-800_pc2-6400_1gb.htm -- "Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor in vain." Psalm 127:1 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Robert Smits wrote:

Ah yes KDE4. Where nothing is where you expect it to be. Where all the menus are changed from what we had. Where we get krippleware like Dolphin and they take features out of Konqueror. Where very few of the KDEPIM settings or data is migrated to KDE4. I heartily dislike KDE4.

Some of the new features of KDE 4 are positive, but the dumbing down of Konqueror and the former Control Center are two examples of decision that destroy function. We need to make it clear to the maintainers that we need and want more configurability and functionality - not less. If I wanted a dumbed-down computer, I would have used Windows.

Well this is where we differ. I like OpenSuse, but I don't care much for some of the changes in 11.1 that make it less functional. I really don't like KDE4, but I'll keep trying new versions to see if they're ready to use. Not yet, in my view. And that may be in part because we're so used to the polished nature of KDE 3.5.

I would say that KDE 4 shows promise in some ways, but not when it is a watered down version with some extra eyecandy. The Configure Desktop is nothing like Control Center. Those responsible for its development should understand that a lot of users want maximum configurability. By dumbing down Open Source software one only paves the ground for more Windows domination - and Microsoft knows how to create simplified software for those who refuse to do much more than to press the ON/OFF button. We must make it absolutely clear that we want something else. We need to go to the KDE people and give them some constructive feedback. Per Inge Oestmoen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dne Thursday 25 December 2008 ob 06:05:17 je Per Inge Oestmoen napisal(a):

If I wanted a dumbed-down computer, I would have used Windows.

Couldn't agree more. We should strongly object any reduction in functionality. There is apparently a strange trend to introduce new eye candy at the expense of true features. The whole move from KDE3 to KDE4 seems to be headed in that direction. We should make it clear that we do not support this trend. Whenever there's incertainty about introducing new features or dropping old ones, the *only* question asked should be: does it improve functionality or eye-candy? If it compromises functionality even in the slightest degree, leave it to Redmond. KDE4 lost the configurability of individual desktop backgrounds on a per-desktop basis; now we've been hit with this dumbed-down Control Center. It's not how a desktop environment is improved, guys. Ever heard about ergonomics? It's about *increasing* configurability (i.e. reachness of options) while *reducing* clutter -- *not* just reducing clutter per se! It's about substituting cryptic numerical fields with intuitive sliders, colour pickers and the like, *not* doing away with the setting altogether! It's not easy, agreed, but then again, who's rushing anyone? Take your time if the result is going to be worth it. If I wanted 3D effects, I would have started a screensaver. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2008/12/25 11:36 (GMT+0100) Clayton composed:

On 2008/12/25 11:26 (GMT+0100) web_dept@gmx.net composed:

...

now we've been hit with this dumbed-down Control Center.

The "new" control center layout has been around for a while.. it's not new to KDE4... I've seen it on other Linux/KDE distros long before KDE4 was out.

I think I first saw it in Kubuntu 5.10, one of the first things that disimpressed me with *buntu. Had KDE4 been started at that point in time (Oct 2005 release)? -- "Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor in vain." Psalm 127:1 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

Some of the new features of KDE 4 are positive, but the dumbing down of Konqueror and the former Control Center are two examples of decision that destroy function. We need to make it clear to the maintainers that we need and want more configurability and functionality - not less.

So this brings up a question that has been nagging me in my use of Kong filemanager mode and dolphin: Did they really dumb down Kong (by ripping out perfectly good functionality such as EXIF, and others) or did they really subvert it to call Dolphin under the table? I've noticed the identical bugs in Kong as Dolphin over the development of KDE 4. They fix it in Dolphin and it gets fixed in Kong. Are we being conned? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott wrote:

I think a big part of the problem is that most Linux users are fairly sophisticated and don't like being treated like children. On the other hand, we have those who feel they have to dumb down Linux to attract the masses. Well, if that's what it takes to attract the masses, I'd rather do without them. By all means add ease of use features, but don't cripple Linux to do it. Don't forget that many of us are here because we want to escape from dumbed down Windows and Macs. I don't mind those ease of use things, provided they can easily be disabled, so as not to get in the way of those who know what they're doing. However, eye candy instead of function is always a loser's game.

Yes, it is a loser's game, because Microsoft and Apple specialize in dumbness and limited functionality and have no impulse to give users maximum functions and choice. Redmond and Mac will always have an edge in what they specialize in. Hence an important raison d'etre of Linux is to be better in functionality - in addition to user control over the software and absence of any kind of "Product Activation." People who want absence of Product Activation because they want to install and modify software and hardware as often and as many times they want without asking permission from anyone, also want choice and configurability as well as a high degree of functionality. It is perfectly possible to achieve user-friendliness and even simplicity without dumbing down anything. This is done through configurability. Throwing away configurability and choice to achieve a dubious user-friendliness means to throw the baby out with the bathing water - and that needs to be pointed out to the KDE developers. There is no reason to believe in schemes or evil motives - the KDE people make software for us and they simply need feedback from us. So let us tell them that we want and need more functionality and choice. Per Inge Oestmoen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Thursday 25 December 2008 17:06, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

...

...

Yes, it is a loser's game, because Microsoft and Apple specialize in dumbness and limited functionality and have no impulse to give users maximum functions and choice.

This is a grotesque misunderstanding of what these firms do. It is akin to saying that the introduction of the electrical starter for the internal combustion engine catered only to those too weak to manually crank their car's engines into operation.

The very sad truth is that today's computers are abysmally arcane and hostile to those they purport to serve. Sure, if you're sufficiently versed in information technology, you can make sense of their behavior (let's say, at least 2/3 of the time) and mostly adequately control their operation and bend it to your will.

But seriously, this is an absurd state of affairs. Implements should not demand of their users a complete understanding of everything that goes into their operation. It's as if you couldn't be expected to work a can opener unless you understood metallurgy!

If specialized training in computers is required to use them, then their creators (among which I must count myself) have _failed_! (Thus far...)

I think we should concentrate on the facts here. I am a photographer - I need to see EXIF data, and to my consternation I saw that when I could easily extract these data in the KDE 3.x version of Konqueror this is impossible in both the 4.x version and Dolphin which is said to be the new KDE File Manager. The above is but one example. Less configurability in the Configure Desktop than in Control Center is another - and it is very hard to see that the former is easier than the latter. In particular when tailoring to personal needs and tastes cannot be done in the same way as in Control Center. Since when did loss of functionality equate with greater usability? Both I and several others have fully agreed with user-friendliness as a goal, but this is not accomplished by removing useful functions. As for the statement that Microsoft and Apple specialize in dumbness and limited functionality, I cannot see anything mistaken about that assessment. Still less can I see the relevance of an analogy about elecrical starters and mechanical ones - if anything it is best to have both. In Norway where I live car engines often stop because of cold, so it would in fact have been beneficial to have manual cranks - but in addition to the faster electrical option. But the analogy really fails - because we are now talking about loss of functionality. How does the removal of the possibility to right-click and get EXIF data straight away in Konqueror without having to open a new window or even a new program, make the computer easier to use? I find it easier when I have the possibility to access the functions I need, and the possibility to tailor the interface to add those I might need later on. I take it for granted that most other also are of this opinion, and therefore we need to convey this message to those who work with the KDE programs. Per Inge Oestmoen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Thursday 25 December 2008 17:06, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

...

...

Yes, it is a loser's game, because Microsoft and Apple specialize in dumbness and limited functionality and have no impulse to give users maximum functions and choice.

This is a grotesque misunderstanding of what these firms do. It is akin to saying that the introduction of the electrical starter for the internal combustion engine catered only to those too weak to manually crank their car's engines into operation.

The very sad truth is that today's computers are abysmally arcane and hostile to those they purport to serve. Sure, if you're sufficiently versed in information technology, you can make sense of their behavior (let's say, at least 2/3 of the time) and mostly adequately control their operation and bend it to your will.

But seriously, this is an absurd state of affairs. Implements should not demand of their users a complete understanding of everything that goes into their operation. It's as if you couldn't be expected to work a can opener unless you understood metallurgy!

If specialized training in computers is required to use them, then their creators (among which I must count myself) have _failed_! (Thus far...)

I'm not saying there shouldn't be easy desktops for the masses. Just don't take away the flexibility & function of KDE 3.x to do it. Perhaps the answer is to maintain 3.x and make 4 the "For Dummies" version. However, regardless of KDE 4, there are some real problems with OpenSUSE 11.1, such as the partitioner, Wake on Lan and others, that I will not be updating my systems and will revert one back to 11.0. I will leave one system as 11.1, even though I can't use XDMCP to reach it. My server can't run 11.1, so long as the WoL issue remains. I have filed it in Bugzilla, but there's been no response to it. As for the "For Dummies" desktop, take a look at what Asus provides in the Eee PC. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott wrote:

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

On Thursday 25 December 2008 17:06, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

...

...

Yes, it is a loser's game, because Microsoft and Apple specialize in dumbness and limited functionality and have no impulse to give users maximum functions and choice.

This is a grotesque misunderstanding of what these firms do. It is akin to saying that the introduction of the electrical starter for the internal combustion engine catered only to those too weak to manually crank their car's engines into operation.

The very sad truth is that today's computers are abysmally arcane and hostile to those they purport to serve. Sure, if you're sufficiently versed in information technology, you can make sense of their behavior (let's say, at least 2/3 of the time) and mostly adequately control their operation and bend it to your will.

But seriously, this is an absurd state of affairs. Implements should not demand of their users a complete understanding of everything that goes into their operation. It's as if you couldn't be expected to work a can opener unless you understood metallurgy!

If specialized training in computers is required to use them, then their creators (among which I must count myself) have _failed_! (Thus far...)

I'm not saying there shouldn't be easy desktops for the masses. Just don't take away the flexibility & function of KDE 3.x to do it.

Sorry to burst your bubble, James, but KDE3 in 11.1 is *NOT* the KDE3 in 11.0. Just try playing a DVD in 11.1/KDE3 using kaffeine (xine will play a DVD but kaffeine, which uses the same xine engine will not); try using k9copy in 11.1/KDE3 and you will have k9 crash on you. Anyone installing 11.1 is only asking for trouble - whether it be with KDE4 or KDE3.

From where I sit, 11.1 is yet another disaster from Novell.

I have great sympathy for the real programmers who have been putting effort into making openSUSE (nee SuSE) to be a success and I have nothing but loathing for those who have been undermining their effort. [pruned} Ciao. -- Be nice to people on your way up - you'll see the same people on your way down. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

Just try playing a DVD in 11.1/KDE3 using kaffeine (xine will play a DVD but kaffeine, which uses the same xine engine will not); try using k9copy in 11.1/KDE3 and you will have k9 crash on you.

Anyone installing 11.1 is only asking for trouble - whether it be with KDE4 or KDE3.

From where I sit, 11.1 is yet another disaster from Novell.

But why did you expect this to work out of the box? It never has worked that way from Novell. You always had to chase down the bits the lawyers would not let Novell ship. In the past you could get the bits from Packman, later from VLC, but I don't remember any version of Novell that included all things multimedia right from the get-go. It tends to be somewhat more transparent from Ubuntu, but even they are simply providing an ability to fetch it from some other repository after the cursory warnings. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz wrote:

The very sad truth is that today's computers are abysmally arcane and hostile to those they purport to serve. Sure, if you're sufficiently versed in information technology, you can make sense of their behavior (let's say, at least 2/3 of the time) and mostly adequately control their operation and bend it to your will.

Randall Schulz

Well said. Part of this is due to natural human tendency to build up inventions adding function after feature till they become so hideously overburdened with seldom used features that the original purpose become almost lost to history. Cameras and cellphones come to mind. Cars too, electrical starters and all. When we can press a button on the way out the door and have a car appear before we get to the curb, and then merely announce our destination in plain language perhaps we will have both the cars and the computers that best server our real needs. We will then have time to figure out what all those options on our cellphones and cameras are for. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Per Inge Oestmoen [12-26-08 21:49]:

Seldom used features?

It surprises me if anyone can decide on behalf of others what these others need. I own one of the more advanced digital SLR's on the market - the Canon EOS 1D III. But for me, it is lacking in some ways. It lacks built-in GPS function, it lacks an intervalometer/time exposure unit. Which should by the way be radio controlled. As it is, these functions can only be added by buying expensive additional equipment.

And when you initially adjusted the settings for your Canon, you undoubtedly didn't change some of the setting I find important to me in my Nikon D3, just the same as the programmer who programming a *new* application (KDE4) doesn't include functions *he* doesn't recognize as *important*. But this is *not* dumming down or whatever and he must be notified of functions that others find important to them. He is not trying to duplicate KDE3, but replace it.

Moreover, there is hardly any such thing as "seldom used." What I (or you, or Carol) may not regularly use, Roger, Kathy and Priscilla will need. In other words, each user may not use the whole spectrum of functions, but we do not use the /same/ functions.

True, but there are functions in KDE3 that are not used and/or other means of accomplishing those functions in a more efficient or user friendly manner. When you rebuild a room, you do not put nails back in exactly the same locations as before, just close.

That actually becomes a nice philosophical point - but an optimally fruitful approach might be to accept that difference and choice are parts of existence, and above all that it is good that they exist. Apart from that, the more one uses something the more one appreciates the existence of various options. I fail to see any sense in deliberately limiting the choices of others.

Again, function is being "reinvented", not replicated. If something does not accomplish a task or there is no way to accomplish a task, request it be added via the bug-reports. Past confirming that there is a need for a function that doesn't exist, endless discussion (trying to put it nicely) accomplishes only more frustration and *noise*. Make your contribution by requesting via bug-reports for what you perceive as missing functionality. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Inge Oestmoen wrote: [snip]

Throwing away configurability and choice to achieve a dubious user-friendliness means to throw the baby out with the bathing water - and that needs to be pointed out to the KDE developers.

There is no reason to believe in schemes or evil motives - the KDE people make software for us and they simply need feedback from us.

So let us tell them that we want and need more functionality and choice.

One of the things that is a real irritant is NOT being able to have full control over the "color" setup as per 3.5.10. Yes, there's some control, but NOT enough. Another is not being able to set the clock to AM:PM. If that exists, I haven't found it!! Fred -- "Politicians and diapers need to be changed regularly -- and for the same reason." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Fred A. Miller wrote:

Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

...

Throwing away configurability and choice to achieve a dubious user-friendliness means to throw the baby out with the bathing water - and that needs to be pointed out to the KDE developers. There is no reason to believe in schemes or evil motives - the KDE people make software for us and they simply need feedback from us. So let us tell them that we want and need more functionality and choice.

One of the things that is a real irritant is NOT being able to have full control over the "color" setup as per 3.5.10. Yes, there's some control, but NOT enough. Another is not being able to set the clock to AM:PM. If that exists, I haven't found it!!

Agreed. Two questions come to mind: How does the computer become easier to use by removal of these possibilities? And since it does manifestly not make the use of the computer more user-friendly, why this unnecessary and unwanted removal of functions? - Yes, I am fully aware that complaining here alone does not change the situation, however it is important to point these things out as many places as possible AND to tell the KDE developers what we want in KDE. Per Inge Oestmoen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org