I know this has come up in the past and now is as good a time to restart it as any time. Will there be a renaming from SUSE OSS to openSUSE as discussed in the past? For people it is not clear what is what and when you look at the realease table, there are so many explanations needed (5 of them), because it is not clear otherwise. First you have the distribution, then you have the status, then you have the edition and also the naming for some (Factory anybody?) It feels as if there are way too many versions with only minor differences. As they will be identical after adding Installation Sources, is it really needed to have that many versions? e.g. why the Evaluation AND the OSS version? Drop the Evaluation and use the space for a CD 6 for those who need the software on CD. This would make things less complicated. You have the full retail version. Boxed. You get support, DVD and CD's and a nice box. Next you have the OSS version (preferably named openSUSE) wich you can download as DVD or CD.¹ Two versions with clear distictions. I am sure Novell will be able to still sell support on the OSS version, jus as they do with the Evaluation version. A lot simpeler for new people to choose from. Sure a lot of people will ask what the difference is. Explaining this will be however a LOT easier. ¹If there would be a tool available that would turn the 5 (or 6) CD's into 1 DVD on Linux, Mac and Windows (OK, three tools) the DVD for OSS would not even be needed, again saving lots of space. houghi -- Bees are very busy souls They have no time for birth controls And that is why in times like these There are so many Sons of Bees.
On 01/21/2006 03:55 PM houghi wrote:
Will there be a renaming from SUSE OSS to openSUSE as discussed in the past? For people it is not clear what is what and when you look at the realease table, there are so many explanations needed (5 of them), because it is not clear otherwise.
FULL ACK.
It feels as if there are way too many versions with only minor differences. As they will be identical after adding Installation Sources, is it really needed to have that many versions?
Good point.
This would make things less complicated. You have the full retail version. Boxed. You get support, DVD and CD's and a nice box. Next you have the OSS version (preferably named openSUSE) wich you can download as DVD or CD.¹
ACK. OJ -- No need to use Windows -- it's easier to go through the door. (unbekannt)
Hi houghi, On Saturday 21 January 2006 16:55, houghi wrote:
Will there be a renaming from SUSE OSS to openSUSE as discussed in the past? For people it is not clear what is what and when you look at the realease table, there are so many explanations needed (5 of them), because it is not clear otherwise.
The differences between the versions were discussed many times. Anyone can search the mailing list archive, and BTW, nobody asked what's the difference between OSS and Eval in the past 1-2 months.
It feels as if there are way too many versions with only minor differences. As they will be identical after adding Installation Sources, is it really needed to have that many versions?
e.g. why the Evaluation AND the OSS version? Drop the Evaluation and use the space for a CD 6 for those who need the software on CD.
Personally, I prefer the Eval DVD because it contains all I need for my desktop and I don't need to re-master the iso. Regarding the "so many" versions... I think the users must have the right to choose what's best for them.
Two versions with clear distictions. I am sure Novell will be able to still sell support on the OSS version, jus as they do with the Evaluation version. A lot simpeler for new people to choose from. Sure a lot of people will ask what the difference is. Explaining this will be however a LOT easier.
You must also think that there are still people without permanent connection to the internet. What should they do? Connect to the internet everytime they need a package from the extra repository? The way it's now, they can ask a friend to download the Eval CD which contains all you need for your workstation (Java, Flash Player, Real Player).
¹If there would be a tool available that would turn the 5 (or 6) CD's into 1 DVD on Linux, Mac and Windows (OK, three tools) the DVD for OSS would not even be needed, again saving lots of space.
Like I said before, I don't like to re-master the iso, and I'm sure there are a lot of users out there who will not be so happy to spend about 30min to 1 hour just to turn the CD's in one DVD. BTW, welcome back :-) Cheers, -- Liviu Damian Mobile phone: +40 741 226993 URL: http://liviudm.blogspot.com
On Mon, Jan 23, 2006 at 02:33:02PM +0200, Liviu Damian wrote:
The differences between the versions were discussed many times. Anyone can search the mailing list archive, and BTW, nobody asked what's the difference between OSS and Eval in the past 1-2 months.
I know it was discussed many times. There even is a voting page on it. However there has been no decission taken with either: we will keep the name SUSE OSS, no matter what, or We will listen to the comunity and rename it to what peopel want, wich is openSUSE. So indeed we could stop discussing and let Novell or SUSE people tell what the decission is and why.
Personally, I prefer the Eval DVD because it contains all I need for my desktop and I don't need to re-master the iso. Regarding the "so many" versions... I think the users must have the right to choose what's best for them.
I agree with the choice part. The differences unfortunatly are so small that it becomes confusing. If many more people like the Eval one, instead of the OSS one, ditch the OSS one.
You must also think that there are still people without permanent connection to the internet. What should they do? Connect to the internet everytime they need a package from the extra repository? The way it's now, they can ask a friend to download the Eval CD which contains all you need for your workstation (Java, Flash Player, Real Player).
For that I was talking about a disk 6.
¹If there would be a tool available that would turn the 5 (or 6) CD's into 1 DVD on Linux, Mac and Windows (OK, three tools) the DVD for OSS would not even be needed, again saving lots of space.
Like I said before, I don't like to re-master the iso, and I'm sure there are a lot of users out there who will not be so happy to spend about 30min to 1 hour just to turn the CD's in one DVD.
Downloading 24 hours and then complaining about 1 hour? For something that is free? ;-) Like I said, if the majority likes the Eval, then ditch the OSS one. They are too similar to live next to each other. However how I see it, if you want the ease, buy the boxed set. Otherwise use the OSS one. Wether or not the OSS should be available as DVD as well is another discussion. Now if they want to go with choices, you could make almost as many distributions as there are users around. houghi -- The trouble with being punctual is that people think you have nothing more important to do.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 houghi wrote:
On Mon, Jan 23, 2006 at 02:33:02PM +0200, Liviu Damian wrote:
The differences between the versions were discussed many times. Anyone can search the mailing list archive, and BTW, nobody asked what's the difference between OSS and Eval in the past 1-2 months.
I know it was discussed many times. There even is a voting page on it. However there has been no decission taken with either: we will keep the name SUSE OSS, no matter what, or We will listen to the comunity and rename it to what people want, wich is openSUSE.
I'm not sure it's "what people want", but it surely is what people remember ;)
So indeed we could stop discussing and let Novell or SUSE people tell what the decission is and why.
Don't forget that may involve issues such as copyright, trademark, etc... SUSE Linux is a registered trademark of Novell. I don't know what exactly "openSUSE" is. Don't think it's just a matter of taste, it can have legal implications and consequences we don't necessarily want, e.g. if openSUSE can be used more loosely by community members than SUSE Linux. As you cannot call your own work or distribution as part of "SUSE Linux", you might very well call it part of "openSUSE". If we get "openSUSE" to be the name of the distribution as well, it will have to be covered as safely as "SUSE Linux", hence restricting how the name may be used.
Personally, I prefer the Eval DVD because it contains all I need for my desktop and I don't need to re-master the iso. Regarding the "so many" versions... I think the users must have the right to choose what's best for them.
I agree with the choice part. The differences unfortunatly are so small that it becomes confusing. If many more people like the Eval one, instead of the OSS one, ditch the OSS one.
I don't agree. Having a 100% OSS version of the distribution is of utmost importance. To the very least, the OSS version may be redistributed freely as all the software included is under an OSI license. That is *not* the case for the eval version. Actually, if one of both should be dropped, I'd be in favor of dropping the eval DVD.
You must also think that there are still people without permanent connection to the internet. What should they do? Connect to the internet everytime they need a package from the extra repository? The way it's now, they can ask a friend to download the Eval CD which contains all you need for your workstation (Java, Flash Player, Real Player).
For that I was talking about a disk 6.
No, please, not yet an additional CD. Favor quality over quantity. If you add yet another few hundreds of packages, how is the SUSE staff supposed to keep their current level of quality, QA processes, with the same release cycle ? Or did you mean an ISO on the internet like the eval but that only contains the non-Free stuff ? Remember that because of the license of the software that would be on that CD, you're not allowed to pull it from the internet, burn and distribute it. IANAL but AFAIK you may only use that for yourself, because you don't have a redistribution contract with Real, Adobe, etc... I might be wrong though ;)
¹If there would be a tool available that would turn the 5 (or 6) CD's into 1 DVD on Linux, Mac and Windows (OK, three tools) the DVD for OSS would not even be needed, again saving lots of space.
No, no way, we *must* keep a 100% OSS version. The typical Windows convert might not care about licenses (he probably wouldn't have ever used Windows if he did) but many people do care about it. Having a full distribution that's known to have only OSS software is definitely a plus. ...
Like I said, if the majority likes the Eval, then ditch the OSS one. They are too similar to live next to each other. However how I see it, if you
No, don't ditch the OSS version.
want the ease, buy the boxed set. Otherwise use the OSS one. Wether or not the OSS should be available as DVD as well is another discussion.
Yes, that's a different topic that involves mirrors, publishing, etc...
- --
-o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
/\\
For that I was talking about a disk 6.
No, please, not yet an additional CD. Favor quality over quantity. If you add yet another few hundreds of packages, how is the SUSE staff supposed to keep their current level of quality, QA processes, with the same release cycle ?
To me... a disk 6 simply means filling the gap between the content of the CD edition and the DVD edition. The SUSE 10.0 DVD contains more than 400 more packages than the CDs (or something close to that). So...if adding a CD#6 means only matching CD content to DVD content then Novell/SUSE absolutely should do this. If it means even more packages... I tend to agree with you Pascal.. quality over quantity. C.
On Mon, Jan 23, 2006 at 03:57:27PM +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote:
I'm not sure it's "what people want", but it surely is what people remember ;)
Nothing remembers as well as a website: http://www.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_&_SUSE_Linux_confusion
So indeed we could stop discussing and let Novell or SUSE people tell what the decission is and why.
Don't forget that may involve issues such as copyright, trademark, etc...
SUSE Linux is a registered trademark of Novell. I don't know what exactly "openSUSE" is.
I undertsand that SUSE and most likeley openSUSE are names owned by Novell. Therefore Novell can say wether they like to name the distro "SUSE OSS" or "openSUSE". If there are legal reason they can not change it, that would be a decision as well. As they own th rights to both, it should not be a legal problem to do so. <snip>
Actually, if one of both should be dropped, I'd be in favor of dropping the eval DVD.
My preference as well.
Or did you mean an ISO on the internet like the eval but that only contains the non-Free stuff ?
This part. A CD with stuff that is now only available via FTP.
Remember that because of the license of the software that would be on that CD, you're not allowed to pull it from the internet, burn and distribute it. IANAL but AFAIK you may only use that for yourself, because you don't have a redistribution contract with Real, Adobe, etc... I might be wrong though ;)
No idea here. Hope Novell can enlighten us here. If you look add this as an ISO (perhaps not possible, but bear with me for a moment) one could download all 6 CD's, just CD 1 for basic install 1-3 for standard install. 1-3+6 for standard install pluss Java and stuff, 1-6 for full install.
No, no way, we *must* keep a 100% OSS version. The typical Windows convert might not care about licenses (he probably wouldn't have ever used Windows if he did) but many people do care about it.
Seriously, how many people run their system without Java, because of the licensing? Just curious. As I stated I rather have a full boxed dual layer version and a OSS version. houghi -- As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality. -- Albert Einstein
On Monday 23 January 2006 18:43, houghi wrote: Hi,
This part. A CD with stuff that is now only available via FTP.
Remember that because of the license of the software that would be on that CD, you're not allowed to pull it from the internet, burn and distribute it. IANAL but AFAIK you may only use that for yourself, because you don't have a redistribution contract with Real, Adobe, etc... I might be wrong though ;)
No idea here. Hope Novell can enlighten us here. If you look add this as an ISO (perhaps not possible, but bear with me for a moment) one could download all 6 CD's, just CD 1 for basic install 1-3 for standard install. 1-3+6 for standard install pluss Java and stuff, 1-6 for full install.
That's exactely how it should look like for SL 10.1. CD 6 carries all the binary stuff.
No, no way, we *must* keep a 100% OSS version. The typical Windows convert might not care about licenses (he probably wouldn't have ever used Windows if he did) but many people do care about it.
The OSS version stay as is. Michael
Seriously, how many people run their system without Java, because of the licensing? Just curious. As I stated I rather have a full boxed dual layer version and a OSS version.
houghi
On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 01:37:01AM +0100, Michael Loeffler wrote:
That's exactely how it should look like for SL 10.1. CD 6 carries all the binary stuff.
So a 6 CD version. Cool.
The OSS version stay as is.
Any changes in the other version, or will they be the same and can it then be discussed for 10.2? Or no possability to change it.? What about the naming? Is openSUSE instead of SUSE OSS still discusable? houghi -- It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail. -- Gore Vidal
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, houghi wrote:
The OSS version stay as is.
Any changes in the other version, or will they be the same and can it then be discussed for 10.2? Or no possability to change it.?
What about the naming? Is openSUSE instead of SUSE OSS still discusable?
There won't be an OSS version, it will all be just SUSE Linux + one addon CD with the bad binary-only stuff. That will hopefully help to avoid the OSS confusion ;) Regards Christoph
On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 11:14:03AM +0100, Christoph Thiel wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, houghi wrote:
The OSS version stay as is.
Any changes in the other version, or will they be the same and can it then be discussed for 10.2? Or no possability to change it.?
What about the naming? Is openSUSE instead of SUSE OSS still discusable?
There won't be an OSS version, it will all be just SUSE Linux + one addon CD with the bad binary-only stuff. That will hopefully help to avoid the OSS confusion ;)
Even better. For the rest of the world this will mean people can either download the 6CDs or the DVD. For those who know what they are doing 4 CDs will be enough, or 3, if you want to be politicaly correct. :-) Great news. Thanks. houghi -- Kin, n.: An affliction of the blood
On Saturday 21 January 2006 15:55, houghi wrote:
I know this has come up in the past and now is as good a time to restart it as any time.
Will there be a renaming from SUSE OSS to openSUSE as discussed in the past? For people it is not clear what is what and when you look at the realease table, there are so many explanations needed (5 of them), because it is not clear otherwise. At least for SL 10.1 we'll have the openSUSE project and the distribution SUSE Linux. But we'are happy having this discussion at FOSDEM.
First you have the distribution, then you have the status, then you have the edition and also the naming for some (Factory anybody?)
It feels as if there are way too many versions with only minor differences. As they will be identical after adding Installation Sources, is it really needed to have that many versions? Right there are to many versions out there which tends to confusion and spoils mirror space. Especially 2 CD version (OSS and Eval) for download lead to confusion.
e.g. why the Evaluation AND the OSS version? Drop the Evaluation and use the space for a CD 6 for those who need the software on CD. We plan to skip the EVAL CD and offer a 6th CD with binary stuff. So anybody can decide wether open source is the right choice or the a version with addtional proprietary packages. And the DVD versions for download include binary stuff by default.
Regards Michael
This would make things less complicated. You have the full retail version. Boxed. You get support, DVD and CD's and a nice box. Next you have the OSS version (preferably named openSUSE) wich you can download as DVD or CD.¹
Two versions with clear distictions. I am sure Novell will be able to still sell support on the OSS version, jus as they do with the Evaluation version. A lot simpeler for new people to choose from. Sure a lot of people will ask what the difference is. Explaining this will be however a LOT easier.
¹If there would be a tool available that would turn the 5 (or 6) CD's into 1 DVD on Linux, Mac and Windows (OK, three tools) the DVD for OSS would not even be needed, again saving lots of space.
houghi
On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 01:50:27AM +0100, Michael Loeffler wrote:
At least for SL 10.1 we'll have the openSUSE project and the distribution SUSE Linux. But we'are happy having this discussion at FOSDEM.
Great. I will be there. I am the slightly fatter guy with a black t-shirt.
We plan to skip the EVAL CD and offer a 6th CD with binary stuff. So anybody can decide wether open source is the right choice or the a version with addtional proprietary packages. And the DVD versions for download include binary stuff by default.
Great news. houghi -- How much does it cost to entice a dope-smoking UNIX system guru to Dayton? -- Brian Boyle, UNIX/WORLD's First Annual Salary Survey
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Michael Loeffler wrote:
On Saturday 21 January 2006 15:55, houghi wrote: ...
It feels as if there are way too many versions with only minor differences. As they will be identical after adding Installation Sources, is it really needed to have that many versions?
Right there are to many versions out there which tends to confusion and spoils mirror space. Especially 2 CD version (OSS and Eval) for download lead to confusion.
Indeed, we notice that quite frequently on #opensuse and #suse, often users are asking "which one should I get" ?
e.g. why the Evaluation AND the OSS version? Drop the Evaluation and use the space for a CD 6 for those who need the software on CD.
We plan to skip the EVAL CD and offer a 6th CD with binary stuff. So anybody can decide wether open source is the right choice or the a version with addtional proprietary packages.
Excellent, that will clarify.
And the DVD versions for download include binary stuff by default.
Ah, ok, so there will be
- - one 100% OSS version in 5 CDs + an optional 6th CD with the non-OSS stuff
- - a DVD that includes all of the above
- - the boxed set that adds some evaluations of commercial software (as compared to the DVD above)
?
That sounds pretty good to me.
Thanks for the information, Michael.
cheers
- --
-o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
/\\
participants (8)
-
Christoph Thiel -
Clayton -
houghi -
Johannes Kastl -
Liviu Damian -
Michael Loeffler -
Pascal Bleser -
Peter Machtans