It's only taken decades, but we finally see official, almost completely unhedged support for Linux from a major hardware vendor. They even have the word "Linux" in their domain name: https://linux.dell.com/
On 2021-02-24 8:54 a.m., ken wrote:
It's only taken decades, but we finally see official, almost completely unhedged support for Linux from a major hardware vendor. They even have the word "Linux" in their domain name: https://linux.dell.com/
Lenovo ThinkPads have long supported Linux and, IIRC, they even sell some models with it. Of course, Linux owns much of the server market, so a company would be foolish to not support it there.
On 24/02/2021 15.13, James Knott wrote:
On 2021-02-24 8:54 a.m., ken wrote:
It's only taken decades, but we finally see official, almost completely unhedged support for Linux from a major hardware vendor. They even have the word "Linux" in their domain name: https://linux.dell.com/
Lenovo ThinkPads have long supported Linux and, IIRC, they even sell some models with it. Of course, Linux owns much of the server market, so a company would be foolish to not support it there.
That doesn't mean that vendors will carry them, or that they are easy to find in the manufacturer web page. <https://www.pccomponentes.com/portatiles-lenovo> I select "Lenovo", then go to the "operating system" and see: Sistema Operativo+ Chrome OS Sin S.O. Windows 10 Home 64 Bits Windows 10 Pro 64 Bits Windows 10 S No Linux. The shop does sell laptops with Linux, Ubuntu is on the main filter. If I don't tick a brand, then the list has: Sistema Operativo+ Boot-up Linux * Chrome OS Endless OS Linux Limpus * Linux Ubuntu * Mac OS Big Sur Mac Os Catalina Mac Os Mojave Mac OS Sierra Mac OS X Sin S.O. Windows 10 Home 64 Bits Windows 10 Pro 64 Bits Windows 10 S Windows 7 Home Premium 64bits If I select Ubuntu, I see the offerings are all "Vant", 8 machines (out of 897 total laptops). https://www.pccomponentes.com/portatiles/linux-ubuntu The "Boot-up Linux" is Acer. The manufacturer is worse. If I go to Lenovo page and try to sort by operating system: <https://www.lenovo.com/es/es/d/laptops-by-specs?sort=sortBy¤tResultsLayoutType=grid> I get: Sistema operativo Chrome (1) Free DOS (4) Sin sistema operativo (1) Windows 10 Home (47) Windows 10 Pro (66) I get no Linux in the list :-( If I go to <https://linux.dell.com/> I don't see machines to purchase. And it says (*emphasis* mine): Welcome Welcome to the Dell Linux Engineering site. This site provides information that will be useful regarding your usage of Linux on your Dell equipment. Dell partners with Red Hat, SuSE and Canonical, and so most of our efforts are focused on these distributions. However, we realize many of our customers choose to run other distributions with a mix of non-standard hardware. Though we can't support every Linux flavor or hardware configuration out there, this site is an *unofficial* resource to help you use your Dell hardware however you choose. Official Support If you have purchased support from Dell and have questions or issues concerning a product or solution supported by Dell, please see support.dell.com, and if necessary, contact Dell Technical Support through the normal channels. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 24/02/2021 15.13, James Knott wrote:
On 2021-02-24 8:54 a.m., ken wrote:
It's only taken decades, but we finally see official, almost completely unhedged support for Linux from a major hardware vendor. They even have the word "Linux" in their domain name: https://linux.dell.com/
Lenovo ThinkPads have long supported Linux and, IIRC, they even sell some models with it. Of course, Linux owns much of the server market, so a company would be foolish to not support it there.
That doesn't mean that vendors will carry them, or that they are easy to find in the manufacturer web page.
There isn't much _to_ find - buy the hardware, install your favourite Linux distro. Lenovo has the usual linux support center: https://linux.lenovo.com and a couple of nice looking pages here: https://www.lenovo.com/ch/en/data-center/software/os/linux/ Offers SUSE, Redhat, Ubuntu, Oracle Linux. https://www.hpe.com/us/en/servers/server-operating-systems.html HPE supports/offers SUSE and Redhat. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.0°C)
On 24/02/2021 17.30, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 24/02/2021 15.13, James Knott wrote:
On 2021-02-24 8:54 a.m., ken wrote:
It's only taken decades, but we finally see official, almost completely unhedged support for Linux from a major hardware vendor. They even have the word "Linux" in their domain name: https://linux.dell.com/
Lenovo ThinkPads have long supported Linux and, IIRC, they even sell some models with it. Of course, Linux owns much of the server market, so a company would be foolish to not support it there.
That doesn't mean that vendors will carry them, or that they are easy to find in the manufacturer web page.
There isn't much _to_ find - buy the hardware, install your favourite Linux distro.
Certainly. But (at least in theory) one has to pay for the Windows it comes with. If it comes with Linux, you have some assurance that Linux works, that it doesn't have unsupported hardware.
Lenovo has the usual linux support center: https://linux.lenovo.com
Didn't know that page. It asks for the serial number; I will have to try mine, I have litle things that do not work.
and a couple of nice looking pages here:
Nice
Offers SUSE, Redhat, Ubuntu, Oracle Linux.
https://www.hpe.com/us/en/servers/server-operating-systems.html
HPE supports/offers SUSE and Redhat.
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On February 25, 2021 2:01:02 AM UTC, "Carlos E.R." <robin.listas@gmx.es> wrote:
On 24/02/2021 17.30, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 24/02/2021 15.13, James Knott wrote:
Certainly. But (at least in theory) one has to pay for the Windows it comes with. If it comes with Linux, you have some assurance that Linux works, that it doesn't have unsupported hardware.
After reading about Dell, I called them about a Linux laptop, which I'm seriously looking for. The sales guy came up with one which was a little bit more than what I wanted and cost much more than what I wanted... $4,400. Then he said there was a 35% discount on that item. Then I asked, how much would the exact same laptop cost if it had windows installed on it instead of Linux? Long story short, it would be $400 less. Draw your own conclusions.
On 25/02/2021 13.50, ken wrote:
On February 25, 2021 2:01:02 AM UTC, "Carlos E.R." <robin.listas@gmx.es> wrote:
On 24/02/2021 17.30, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 24/02/2021 15.13, James Knott wrote:
Certainly. But (at least in theory) one has to pay for the Windows it comes with. If it comes with Linux, you have some assurance that Linux works, that it doesn't have unsupported hardware.
After reading about Dell, I called them about a Linux laptop, which I'm seriously looking for. The sales guy came up with one which was a little bit more than what I wanted and cost much more than what I wanted... $4,400. Then he said there was a 35% discount on that item. Then I asked, how much would the exact same laptop cost if it had windows installed on it instead of Linux? Long story short, it would be $400 less. Draw your own conclusions.
Yeah :-( I read an explanation about this, but I don't remember what it was. Not that M$ finances them, it is not that. But, well, if it is exactly the same hardware, you know that it works with Linux ;-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Le 25/02/2021 à 13:59, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
I read an explanation about this, but I don't remember what it was. Not that M$ finances them, it is not that.
they have to remove Windows and install linux instead :-( jdd -- http://dodin.org
On 25/02/2021 14.08, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 25/02/2021 à 13:59, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
I read an explanation about this, but I don't remember what it was. Not that M$ finances them, it is not that.
they have to remove Windows and install linux instead :-(
That doesn't make sense. They should simply apply a Linux image containing rescue partition and software for Linux. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Le 25/02/2021 à 14:16, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 25/02/2021 14.08, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 25/02/2021 à 13:59, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
I read an explanation about this, but I don't remember what it was. Not that M$ finances them, it is not that.
they have to remove Windows and install linux instead :-(
That doesn't make sense.
They should simply apply a Linux image containing rescue partition and software for Linux.
they obviously don't have one, or have to apply it manually :-( jdd -- http://dodin.org
On 2021-02-25 8:08 a.m., jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 25/02/2021 à 13:59, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
I read an explanation about this, but I don't remember what it was. Not that M$ finances them, it is not that.
they have to remove Windows and install linux instead :-(
How much is it if they don't install Windows or any other OS in the first place? -- “Reality is so complex, we must move away from dogma, whether it’s conspiracy theories or free-market,” -- James Glattfelder. http://jth.ch/jbg
Hi Carlos, have a look at https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/, they sell linux only laptops. Cheers, Bernd Am 25.02.21 um 13:50 schrieb ken:
On February 25, 2021 2:01:02 AM UTC, "Carlos E.R." <robin.listas@gmx.es> wrote:
On 24/02/2021 17.30, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 24/02/2021 15.13, James Knott wrote:
Certainly. But (at least in theory) one has to pay for the Windows it comes with. If it comes with Linux, you have some assurance that Linux works, that it doesn't have unsupported hardware.
After reading about Dell, I called them about a Linux laptop, which I'm seriously looking for. The sales guy came up with one which was a little bit more than what I wanted and cost much more than what I wanted... $4,400. Then he said there was a 35% discount on that item. Then I asked, how much would the exact same laptop cost if it had windows installed on it instead of Linux? Long story short, it would be $400 less. Draw your own conclusions.
Dne čtvrtek 25. února 2021 14:09:34 CET, Bernd Ritter napsal(a):
Hi Carlos,
have a look at https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/, they sell linux only laptops.
No, I think Carlos should shop at https://slimbook.es/ :-)
Cheers, Bernd
Am 25.02.21 um 13:50 schrieb ken:
On February 25, 2021 2:01:02 AM UTC, "Carlos E.R." wrote:
On 24/02/2021 17.30, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 24/02/2021 15.13, James Knott wrote: -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/
Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
On 25/02/2021 14.58, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
Dne čtvrtek 25. února 2021 14:09:34 CET, Bernd Ritter napsal(a):
Hi Carlos,
have a look at https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/, they sell linux only laptops.
No, I think Carlos should shop at https://slimbook.es/ :-)
As long as they sell to Spain, I'm game :-) The second link is in Spanish, so that condition is fulfilled. The first one I don't know. But I'm not buying anytime soon. Unless I get into money (not likely) or my current laptop dies (I hope id doesn't). -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Am 25.02.21 um 15:04 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
The second link is in Spanish, so that condition is fulfilled. The first one I don't know.
Free shipping to all over Europe: https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Shipping-Returns.tuxedo
Dne čtvrtek 25. února 2021 15:04:28 CET, Carlos E.R. napsal(a):
On 25/02/2021 14.58, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
Dne čtvrtek 25. února 2021 14:09:34 CET, Bernd Ritter napsal(a):
have a look at https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/, they sell linux only laptops.
No, I think Carlos should shop at https://slimbook.es/ :-)
As long as they sell to Spain, I'm game :-)
I'd suppose Spanish company ships into Spain. ;-)
The second link is in Spanish, so that condition is fulfilled. The first one I don't know. But I'm not buying anytime soon. Unless I get into money (not likely) or my current laptop dies (I hope id doesn't).
When buying Dell Latitude some years ago, I hope it'd now be in better state than it is... :-/ Am I only one thinking that quality of ThnkPads, Lattitudes, ProBooks etc. is decreasing? Then If I'd have to go for new notebook soon (I hope I don't), I'd go for Slimbook (light, perfect design) or Tuxedo (for me slightly better HW, numerical keyboard), Ryzen, of course. ;) -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
On 25/02/2021 15.10, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
Dne čtvrtek 25. února 2021 15:04:28 CET, Carlos E.R. napsal(a):
On 25/02/2021 14.58, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
Dne čtvrtek 25. února 2021 14:09:34 CET, Bernd Ritter napsal(a):
have a look at https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/, they sell linux only laptops.
No, I think Carlos should shop at https://slimbook.es/ :-)
As long as they sell to Spain, I'm game :-)
I'd suppose Spanish company ships into Spain. ;-)
The second link is in Spanish, so that condition is fulfilled. The first one I don't know. But I'm not buying anytime soon. Unless I get into money (not likely) or my current laptop dies (I hope id doesn't).
When buying Dell Latitude some years ago, I hope it'd now be in better state than it is... :-/ Am I only one thinking that quality of ThnkPads, Lattitudes, ProBooks etc. is decreasing? Then If I'd have to go for new notebook soon (I hope I don't), I'd go for Slimbook (light, perfect design) or Tuxedo (for me slightly better HW, numerical keyboard), Ryzen, of course. ;)
I have two laptops. One is a Compaq I bought on 2009 or so. It is heavy and not powerful. I intentionally do not buy powerful laptops to reduce the cost. No powerful graphics either, just Intel, for the same reason and to increase battery life. I replaced the battery once, so it is still working. The other I bought on 2018, is a tiny thing quite suitable for travelling (I selected it specifically for that purpose). Same criteria, not powerful, Intel graphics. A Lenovo. On both I replaced the hard disk with an SSD. Recent caveat: they both work badly with meet (jitsi). CPU load goes full, not possible to meet with three people, they stutter. Recently, I bought a a laptop for a friend and did the initial preparation. She is not a gamer, so again I selected Intel graphics. Price bracket under 1000€, I don't remember the exact price now. It is much more powerful than mine, but it is a sprinter: it can go full CPU power for a short time only, otherwise it overheats and throttles down. Not a problem. A Lenovo again, with Windows (I installed Linux as well in a small partition, just in case). The owner initially was moaning that it was "different" from her old laptop. But one day that old machine refused to boot, so she had no recourse but use the new one, and brought me the old one to repair. Turned out that after three days she was so happy with the new laptop that the old one is just catching dust unused in a corner of my house, she didn't come back for it :-D So I'm very happy she is happy with my choices of laptop O:-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Thu, 2021-02-25 at 14:09 +0100, Bernd Ritter wrote:
Hi Carlos,
have a look at https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/, they sell linux only laptops.
www.system76.com is another. -- Carl Spitzer {L Juno} <lynux@juno.com> www.OCLUG.org Laptop ____________________________________________________________ Sponsored by https://www.newser.com/?utm_source=part&utm_medium=uol&utm_campaign=rss_taglines_more Doctor Appears in Court Via Zoom Call from Operating Room http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/603bbaf597bc23af44406st04duc1 Another Woman Has Accused Cuomo of Sexual Harassment http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/603bbaf5bd4ce3af44406st04duc2 FDA Approves Single-Shot Vaccine http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/603bbaf5e1db33af44406st04duc3
Am 25.02.21 um 13:50 schrieb ken:
The sales guy came up with one which was a little bit more than what I wanted and cost much more than what I wanted... $4,400.
I mean... really? Fourth search result on Google for "dell linux": https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/overview/cp/linuxsystems They have been doing this for literally decades now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dell#Dell_and_desktop_Linux vinz.
On 2021-02-25 7:50 a.m., ken wrote:
After reading about Dell, I called them about a Linux laptop, which I'm seriously looking for. The sales guy came up with one which was a little bit more than what I wanted and cost much more than what I wanted... $4,400. Then he said there was a 35% discount on that item. Then I asked, how much would the exact same laptop cost if it had windows installed on it instead of Linux? Long story short, it would be $400 less. Draw your own conclusions.
Since I occasionally have need for Windows (mostly work related), I don't mind buying a computer that comes with it, provided it properly supports Linux. I then repartition and configure for dual boot. Also, when I bought my current ThinkPad E520, I took a live Linux CD with me, to test in the store before I bought.
On 25/02/2021 14.41, James Knott wrote:
On 2021-02-25 7:50 a.m., ken wrote:
After reading about Dell, I called them about a Linux laptop, which I'm seriously looking for. The sales guy came up with one which was a little bit more than what I wanted and cost much more than what I wanted... $4,400. Then he said there was a 35% discount on that item. Then I asked, how much would the exact same laptop cost if it had windows installed on it instead of Linux? Long story short, it would be $400 less. Draw your own conclusions.
Since I occasionally have need for Windows (mostly work related), I don't mind buying a computer that comes with it, provided it properly supports Linux. I then repartition and configure for dual boot. Also, when I bought my current ThinkPad E520, I took a live Linux CD with me, to test in the store before I bought.
The shop I usually buy from, I can not do that. There is one shop where that might be possible, but I never tried not seen anybody doing so. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2021-02-25 9:00 a.m., Carlos E.R. wrote:
Since I occasionally have need for Windows (mostly work related), I don't mind buying a computer that comes with it, provided it properly supports Linux. I then repartition and configure for dual boot. Also, when I bought my current ThinkPad E520, I took a live Linux CD with me, to test in the store before I bought. The shop I usually buy from, I can not do that.
There is one shop where that might be possible, but I never tried not seen anybody doing so.
I don't know that the store "allowed" it. I just did it and no one said anything. ;-)
On 25/02/2021 15.12, James Knott wrote:
On 2021-02-25 9:00 a.m., Carlos E.R. wrote:
Since I occasionally have need for Windows (mostly work related), I don't mind buying a computer that comes with it, provided it properly supports Linux. I then repartition and configure for dual boot. Also, when I bought my current ThinkPad E520, I took a live Linux CD with me, to test in the store before I bought. The shop I usually buy from, I can not do that.
There is one shop where that might be possible, but I never tried not seen anybody doing so.
I don't know that the store "allowed" it. I just did it and no one said anything. ;-)
They may have locks in place that impede booting external media. Saw that once. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.2 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2021-02-25 8:41 a.m., James Knott wrote:
Also, when I bought my current ThinkPad E520, I took a live Linux CD with me, to test in the store before I bought.
I did that a couple of times with a Knoppix CD @BestBuy. A bit unfair, I'll grant you, since Knoppix very resilient and will run on h/w what other distributions can't. The second time I was driven off by one of the know-nothing salesman and had to leave the CD behind in the machine. I've always wondered if that wasn't a version that if you simply booted it and did nothing else it would install on the hard drive. -- “Reality is so complex, we must move away from dogma, whether it’s conspiracy theories or free-market,” -- James Glattfelder. http://jth.ch/jbg
On 2021-02-25 9:27 a.m., Anton Aylward wrote:
I did that a couple of times with a Knoppix CD @BestBuy. A bit unfair, I'll grant you, since Knoppix very resilient and will run on h/w what other distributions can't. The second time I was driven off by one of the know-nothing salesman and had to leave the CD behind in the machine. I've always wondered if that wasn't a version that if you simply booted it and did nothing else it would install on the hard drive.
Maybe that salesman learned a bit about Linux. ;-)
On 2021-02-24 14:54, ken wrote:
It's only taken decades, but we finally see official, almost completely unhedged support for Linux from a major hardware vendor. They even have the word "Linux" in their domain name: https://linux.dell.com/
Hm. I was part of a quite large installation at a university slightly after the millennium. Dell actually donated around 50 (I think) servers for the project. It was all Linux. First page at archive.org about dell Linux is from: 20040304 202220 https://web.archive.org/web/20040304202220/https://linux.dell.com/ -- /bengan
On Wed, 2021-02-24 at 15:18 +0100, Bengt Gördén wrote:
On 2021-02-24 14:54, ken wrote:
It's only taken decades, but we finally see official, almost completely unhedged support for Linux from a major hardware vendor. They even have the word "Linux" in their domain name: https://linux.dell.com/
Hm. I was part of a quite large installation at a university slightly after the millennium. Dell actually donated around 50 (I think) servers for the project. It was all Linux.
First page at archive.org about dell Linux is from: 20040304 202220
https://web.archive.org/web/20040304202220/https://linux.dell.com/
Well I do not think we need much support simply recognition from the OEM companies. I do have 11.4 on an older Gen 4 Dell Desktop the one with the color changing front pannel and now 15.2 on Dell N5110. Its the ACER E5-575 which is giving me problems. This list is our support and does a good job. CWSIV ____________________________________________________________ Sponsored by https://www.newser.com/?utm_source=part&utm_medium=uol&utm_campaign=rss_taglines_more Doctor Appears in Court Via Zoom Call from Operating Room http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/603bb93f5970c393e2b94st04duc1 Another Woman Has Accused Cuomo of Sexual Harassment http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/603bb93f7e582393e2b94st04duc2 FDA Approves Single-Shot Vaccine http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/603bb93fa3738393e2b94st04duc3
On Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:54:03 +0000 ken <gebser@mousecar.com> wrote:
It's only taken decades, but we finally see official, almost completely unhedged support for Linux from a major hardware vendor. They even have the word "Linux" in their domain name: https://linux.dell.com/
Apart from providing linux support for pretty much all their printers, I believe HP have been selling PCs with linux installed for ages.
On 2/24/21 7:54 AM, ken wrote:
It's only taken decades, but we finally see official, almost completely unhedged support for Linux from a major hardware vendor. They even have the word "Linux" in their domain name: https://linux.dell.com/
Yes, I saw the article on "The Register" and the story on Dell support for Linux. While they may be initially, their Linux support techs will soon be like the Maytag Repair Man -- quite bored, as Linux just keep working.... -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
On Wed, 2021-02-24 at 13:26 -0600, David C. Rankin wrote:
On 2/24/21 7:54 AM, ken wrote:
It's only taken decades, but we finally see official, almost completely unhedged support for Linux from a major hardware vendor. They even have the word "Linux" in their domain name: https://linux.dell.com/
Yes, I saw the article on "The Register" and the story on Dell support for Linux. While they may be initially, their Linux support techs will soon be like the Maytag Repair Man -- quite bored, as Linux just keep working....
Agreed the excitement of reinstalls and crashes is something I can do without. Like crazy drivers who got their licenses in Crackerjack Boxes. -- Carl Spitzer {L Juno} <lynux@juno.com> www.OCLUG.org Laptop ____________________________________________________________ Sponsored by https://www.newser.com/?utm_source=part&utm_medium=uol&utm_campaign=rss_taglines_more Doctor Appears in Court Via Zoom Call from Operating Room http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/603bb9dcda3aa39dc70b0st03duc1 Another Woman Has Accused Cuomo of Sexual Harassment http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/603bb9dda2ac39dc70b0st03duc2 FDA Approves Single-Shot Vaccine http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/603bb9dd2f5af39dc70b0st03duc3
On 2021-02-24 07:54:03 ken wrote:
|It's only taken decades, but we finally see official, almost completely | unhedged support for Linux from a major hardware vendor. They even have | the word "Linux" in their domain name: https://linux.dell.com/
Looking at that website, it's pretty clear that they're talking about server, not desktop (end user) support. Leslie -- openSUSE Leap 15.2 x86_64
participants (15)
-
Anton Aylward -
Bengt Gördén -
Bernd Ritter -
Carl Spitzer {L Juno} -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E.R. -
Dave Howorth -
David C. Rankin -
J Leslie Turriff -
James Knott -
jdd＠dodin.org -
ken -
Per Jessen -
Vinzenz Vietzke -
Vojtěch Zeisek