Lets hope that 8.1 will see a return to the quality that we are all used too at the general consumer level. Try installing 8.0 on a 233/32 meg portege 3015CT (product of the year only 2 years ago) But this is also a reality as laptops are designed to live only for quarter and then are considered redundant. It must be very difficult to be in the distro business. Certainly I appreciate the volume of work SuSE puts into its product releases and there are bound to be glitches periodically. For me, probably the exception other then you and a few others, 8.0 was one of those releases. But im sure there will be marked improvements with 8.1

I hope too ! In fact this Suse 8.1 will be my "last chance" to Suse, if they are NOT a killer distribution ( like 7.0/7.1/7.2/7.3 was !!! ) bye bye Suse for me ! Fábio Rabelo

* Stuart Powell; on 29 Jul, 2002 wrote:

Hello. Now for my $0.02 on YaST2 - Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeez make a key combo that allows me to tab backwards through the fields ! Other than that, I find it is acceptable, especially when combined with something like Webmin.

Why not just use the Alt + The higlighted letter to navigate thru the fields it is faster than TAB -- Togan Muftuoglu Unofficial SuSE FAQ Maintainer http://dinamizm.ath.cx

...

And then ...when I will set up the deamons, the rc.config is put away WITHOUT a equivalent replacement !!!

Not true, read the friendly manual and look in /etc/sysconfig. There is also, as always, a section in the manual (chapter 4, "From Version to Version") detailing the major changes between releases.

...

If I want to make this setup without tweeking ( the MAJOR reason that I migrate from "red hat" like to Suse ) I MUST use AGAIN this great peace of sheet called Yast2, and, I must remember run levels and other things that I running awy from when migrate to Suse !!!

Not sure what you mean here, but if you run YaST (console or X) and select System / Runlevel Editor / Runlevel properties, you will be presented with an easy-to-use interface that lets you enable or disable a service (with default runlevels if you don't know how to set them). Or you can use "insserv" from the command line. Look at chapter 12 of the 460-page manual that comes with SuSE.

...

What a hell is this ?!?!? involution ??? steps back ??? If Suse don't release a "Suse 7.4" with kernel 2.4.18 or 2.4.19 or a Suse 8.1 WITH Yast1 or MUCH MUCH more fast and friendly Yast 2 I will stay away from Suse until now !! ( and my clients too !! )

Yes !!! you got the core of my problem but ignored them !!! In 7.3 I spend 1/2 hour to install and more 1/2 hour to setp ! In 8.0 I sepnd 3 hours to install and more 2 hours to setup, without including in it the time to read manuals !!!! 8.0 is MUCH MUCH more time consuming to install and setup ! I just can't aford it !!! You can ??? Fábio Rabelo

And how many hours on this inceasingly silly thread?

I for one, would be pleased if you didn't have the time.

Well, I tought this list is to share info with all users AND to make some back info to Suse team, If I'm wrong, I'll get out of this list ASAP !!! I'm wrong ??? Fábio Rabelo

Well, I tought this list is to share info with all users AND to make some back info to Suse team, If I'm wrong, I'll get out of this list ASAP !!!

The correct forum for feeding back info to SuSE is through their new online feedback form on the website. -- James Ogley, Unix Systems Administrator, Pinnacle Insurance Plc james.ogley@pinnacle.co.uk www.pinnacle.co.uk +44 (0) 20 8731 3619 Using Free Software since 1994, running GNU/Linux (SuSE 8.0) This email was created and sent with Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 NEW: Advogato diary at www.advogato.org/person/riggwelter ********************************************************************** CONFIDENTIALITY.This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Pinnacle Insurance plc. If you have received this email in error please immediately notify the Pinnacle Helpdesk on +44 (0) 20 8207 9555. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com **********************************************************************

At 01:38 29/07/2002 , Patrick wrote:

Fábio, I believe if you check, you will find Yast1 on your 7.3 or 7.2 cds, source code and all. Feel free to alter, change or make it useful for your needs, just don't resale it. I believe that is the only restriction on it? Yast2 is actually very useful, but it is different from one, but you have the option to use it either in GUI or console mode, if the GUI mode proves unnatural to you. Good luck

Reading Fabio's original post, I see his 'test bed' is a pentium 150 - and that is just *too slow* for yast2 (GUI *or* console). In fact, on a 150, it's going to be pretty impossible to run any GUI. Tony

Patrick ====================== On Sunday 28 July 2002 15:10, Fábio Rabelo wrote:

...

I'm Suse user since version 6.1, then migrating from "redhat" like .. After dedicating this weekend to instal at first time Suse 8.0 .. and REALY hate them !!! First of all : instalation ! My test bed is a Pentium 150, motherboard VIA MVP3, 64 RAM . more then enough to run a gateway/firewall to 30 or 40 machines . Suse 7.2 ou 7.3 installs on them smoothly, in 1/2 hour ou less... more 1/2 hour to setup deamons and firewall ... well ... to install suse 8.0 I MUST setup a swap of 40 MB BEFORE anything else ... AND, to select correct set of packages, I spend 3 hours !!! my "DMZ" selection ( from suse7.2/7.3 Yast1 ) are missing, I MUST make a selection by hand and at EACH package that I cut/select this machine "things" for about 1 minute before I can go to the next !! What a hell are Suse developers thinking ?!?!? I dont have time to waste !!! if they have, make Yast 2 USABLE or get back Yast 1 ... or free Yast 1 to comunity proceed with development ! But this is unaceptable !!! And then ...when I will set up the deamons, the rc.config is put away WITHOUT a equivalent replacement !!! If I want to make this setup without tweeking ( the MAJOR reason that I migrate from "red hat" like to Suse ) I MUST use AGAIN this great peace of sheet called Yast2, and, I must remember run levels and other things that I running awy from when migrate to Suse !!! What a hell is this ?!?!? involution ??? steps back ??? If Suse don't release a "Suse 7.4" with kernel 2.4.18 or 2.4.19 or a Suse 8.1 WITH Yast1 or MUCH MUCH more fast and friendly Yast 2 I will stay away from Suse until now !! ( and my clients too !! )

Now I can undestand all msg from this list soon after 8.1 release ! This peaple are right !!! Ssue * and Yast 2 sucks !!!

Fábio Rabelo

-- --- KMail v1.4.2 --- SuSE Linux Pro v8.0 --- Amiga, SuSE Linux, PC Sales & Service Magic Page Products

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com

than a console based app, so running in text mode is the obvious option, except in the case of YaST2 because the text mode user interface is so hard to use.

*IYHO* Personally, I use the ncurses mode over the GUI mode cos it's faster, and hell, I just prefer doing stuff in a keyboard driven manner. (Can't believe I joined this religious war thread...) -- James Ogley, Unix Systems Administrator, Pinnacle Insurance Plc james.ogley@pinnacle.co.uk www.pinnacle.co.uk +44 (0) 20 8731 3619 Using Free Software since 1994, running GNU/Linux (SuSE 8.0) Updated GNOME RPMs for SuSE Linux: www.usr-local-bin.org *********************************************************************** CONFIDENTIALITY. This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Pinnacle Insurance Plc. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify our Helpdesk on +44 (0) 20 8207 9555. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com **********************************************************************

...

...

In fact, on a 150, it's going to be pretty impossible to run any GUI.

Rubbish.

Sorry - can't let this pass.

...

You can get perfectly acceptable GUI performance from a low end 486 if you run a light enough desktop environment.

We're talking about yast2

Your quote, at the top of this email says "it's going to be pretty impossible to run any GUI". That's what's rubbish. Now you say we're talking about running YaST2. Make your mind up. Running a GUI on a 486 is perfectly possible. Running YaST2 in GUI mode probably isn't too much fun. I'll take your word for that because I haven't tried it. -- 4:32pm up 5 days, 7:12, 1 user, load average: 0.15, 0.05, 0.01

On Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:14:51 -0300, Fábio Rabelo wrote:

Realy ?? but this machine is more then anoug to run a gateway/firewall .... Why is not enough to instal Suse 8.0 ?? ( this question is for Suse team and is VERY pertinent !!! )

Routing doesn't require a lot of processing power or memory. Try building XFree86 sometime to get an idea of how mammoth a program it is. Then add in all the various tools and libraries for managing these displays and a window manager and a desktop. I don't even know what the current minimum recommendations are for a system which can run X. Which is why, obviously, YaST2 can run in text mode. We have an application issue here which, in my mind, is different from what we've discussed previously in this thread. Should SuSE attempt to maintain ease of installation with an unfortunately but necessarily large installation program which requires a fairly substantial machine (such as are now quite common) or should it orient its installation to old slow machines without a lot of processing power and memory? Ideally, SuSE would do both. But this is not an ideal world; there are other distributions which have oriented themselves for systems which will serve only as routers. If all you want is a router on an old, slow machine, my advice would be to go elsewhere. There are other application issues as well. The Linux community has in general sought to set Linux up as a general purpose operating system, applicable for desktop, Internet services, and routing. This is far from being just a SuSE issue, and the outcome necessarily involves a certain amount of bloat, which you'll find in all general purpose distributions. -- David Benfell, LCP benfell@parts-unknown.org --- Resume available at http://www.parts-unknown.org/resume.html

On Sun, 28 Jul 2002 16:38:35 -0700, Alberto Santana wrote:

I have to say that SuSE rules... There is no question about it. You will never find anything better, so go and buy 100 copies, support the SuSE team.

I'll have to say that my previous comments about the need for two installation programs were proven all too true last week. I was bringing up a server and grabbed a SuSE 8.0, only to find that YaST2 in that version failed to see the CD-ROM drive and that the installation environment was so limited I couldn't even begin to debug the problem. I couldn't even run dmesg. So I went back to SuSE 7.3 and installed with no problem. But because SuSE has rearranged things I couldn't use this YaST2 to even begin a SuSE 8.0 installation. I can't say I was impressed. I sincerely hope that SuSE will reconsider its decision with regard to YaST. -- David Benfell, LCP benfell@parts-unknown.org --- Resume available at http://www.parts-unknown.org/resume.html

it is a step toward newcomers from M$,, but scraping Yast1 is to early decison [ it is step back - nice but not so good in functionality [ Who needs pull gui for instaloation and admin task ? ] ]

...

If Suse don't release a "Suse 7.4" with kernel 2.4.18 or 2.4.19 or a Suse 8.1 WITH Yast1 or MUCH MUCH more fast and friendly Yast 2 I will stay away from Suse until now !! ( and my clients too !! )

Good idea.

We've been over this. See the list archives from a couple of months back. The bottom line is that SuSE saw YaST1 as having reached the end of its life, and that a new tool was needed for a more modern distro. The code to YaST1 is available if anyone wants to have a stab at updating it to work with 8.0, but, strangely, when the amount of work involved was spelled out, the people threatening to do just that shut up. YaST2 is the future. I'm right behind you with many of your complaints about it, particularly about the slow, heavy GUI interface, and the unusable text interface. SuSE can't of failed to have heard the complaining, so we'll have to see what improvements 8.1 brings. If the answer is "none", then I suspect many will vote with their feet and change distros. The others will just learn to get along with YaST2. -- 10:18am up 5 days, 58 min, 1 user, load average: 0.10, 0.06, 0.01

** Reply to message from David Benfell on Mon, 29 Jul 2002 05:07:03 -0700 **And as I posted before, I wasn't able to install 8.0 at all on a **particular machine where 7.3 went in just fine. It happens that this **was my first attempt at an 8.0 installation. This is something I've wondered about in the past... Somewhere, no doubt among the learned on the list, If you have a system runnning as you wish , what is the reason to upgrade ? At least as long as your version is supported , there isn't any crushing need to UG , is there ? I wanted some of the functionality that is in 8.0, and I had a couple of new boxen that could be happily running 8.0 ( and they are) However, at least two of the older models had 7.3 and they were happy ... the updates ( YOU) had given those boxen a lot of the functionality of 8.0 , so I probably wont do an upgrade on them til 7.3 gets nearer obsolesence .... By then, I'm sure there will be an update that will make those boxen happy ... **One of the strengths of SuSE was that while YaST was a very capable **tool, it didn't have to be perfect. It could have bugs and you could **still get around them because you had enough tools to fix problems, **one way or another. Well, you still have the option of editing necessary files by hand... In some cases it's the fastest way ... and there are all sorts of tools on the cds... to do just about anything, it looks like. I guess I don't understand what it is that yast2 doesn't do for you? I had one old box I installed 8.0 on for the heck of it ( not a production , nor even a testbed so , why not try it ?) Yast2 decided I needed to have a text mode install ( I know you remember those from 7.2/7.3 <G>) but it installed enough stuff on hte default intstall to have the box up and running , connected to the net , Dled my email program and had my nice little gui running along .... The only problem I have on that box , aside from it's needing a major parts transplant ( it's a cellery proc ) it it runs very slowly after it's been up and running for a day or so.. ( I wonder if there is a memory leak there somewhere ??? Or not... at this point it isn't worth getting all lathered up about. ) I DO see that it can be a trial , if you are used to one way of doing things.. but still, since yast one , nor the older yast2 can or will run on the 8.0 code.. It's time for the older boxen to be happy w/ 7.3 and the YOU updates ... for now it is sitting in a corner "just in case" My main box dies ( AGAIN! ) The main one is on it's umpteenth hard drive ... they seem to last roughtly 3 months and die horribly, and w/o warning <sigh> That is not an OS problem tho... as it's managed to die w/ it's origional OS ( nt4) alone on it, linux variations from Corel to the current Suse... <heavy sigh> j afterthought Seen on an old, beat-up car: This is not an abandoned vehicle.

On Monday 29 July 2002 15.04, David Benfell wrote:

Yes but you need to be able to do this in the installation environment on CD 1. In my case, I couldn't even diagnose the problem since I couldn't even run dmesg to find out if the kernel had seen the CD drive.

How about booting the rescue system? As far as I can see, you don't need to have anything installed to run that. //Anders

This is something I've wondered about in the past... Somewhere, no doubt among the learned on the list, If you have a system runnning as you wish , what is the reason to upgrade ? At least as long as your version is supported , there isn't any crushing need to UG , is there ? I wanted some of the functionality that is in 8.0, and I had a couple of new boxen that could be happily running 8.0 ( and they are) However, at least two of the older models had 7.3 and they were happy ... the updates ( YOU) had given those boxen a lot of the functionality of 8.0 , so I probably wont do an upgrade on them til 7.3 gets nearer obsolesence .... By then, I'm sure there will be an update that will make those boxen happy ...

Again, I'm not talking about upgrades !! I'm talking about brand new clients and instalations !! after this creepy weekend experience, I'll NOT change any of my clients that are running Suse 7.2/7.3 smoothly and fast ! ;- ) Fábio Rabelo

Why did you want to change?

While all these versions are linux, the way a number of things have evolved across different distributions has ment that some of the basics have not kept up with the task in hand.

I approached 8.0 as a new system and installed it without any 'prerequesists' and it worked fine. Then I when back to my previous setup and took a look at what I wanted to move over. ( On windows this is simply a MUST when changing versions of windows <g> )

The way SUSE have gone about things is a pain, and releasing code that THEY want to drop does not seem unreasonable, but if the end point of this 'game' is a version of linux that can install new code without having to write an installer for every distribution then I applaud the effort.

When we have a handbook for a 'universal' linux then we can all be happy. It would be nice to know if we are all going the same direction.

I'm not changing anything, I'm not talking about upgades, I'm talking about NEW instalations in NEW clients !!! Fábio Rabelo

Fábio Rabelo [ Sun, 28 Jul 2002 16:10:57 -0300]:

...

And then ...when I will set up the deamons, the rc.config is put away WITHOUT a equivalent replacement !!!

How about asking first and *then* complaining?

There is something much better! First of all, rc.config settings have been moved to /etc/sysconfig. Starting and stopping of services is only controlled by the run level link, either configured via YaST2 runlevel editor or insserv (see 'man insserv'). This is *much* more flexible then the old way.

BTW, only few SuSE employees read this list. So if you wanted your rant to reach SuSE, this list is not the best place.

well, it is old news ! Someone told what you told and I'm enswered ... Things like "run level editor" was exatly what I'm "running away from" when I migrate to Suse since version 6.1, it is what I call "steps back" . I've been using Suse just because it can do this job in a "simple and practic" way, if Suse no longer can do it in the same way, I'll migrate to another one ! but, like people told in a several msg in the list, I spend a lot of money in several Suse versions ( 6.1, 6.3, 7.0, 7.2, 7.3, 8.0 ) and my clients spends several times more money them myself !! I, in my name and in name of all of my clients, have the rights to scream !! "Suse can be reaching a lot of new clients with 8.0, but can be loosing a lot of old clients too ! Suse can afford it ???" this above is the end of my second msg in this subject, and what I'm reading in the list just confirm that are a lot of people thinking just like this ! I don't "WANT TO" use another distro, it depends of what Suse will do with 8.1 ! and one last question : If 8.0 is "so good" why the last upgrades of corporate products fo Suse ( Email Server, Enterprise Server, Connectivity Server ) is based on 7.3 and NOT in 8.0 ??? Fábio Rabelo

Hi Fábio, Fábio Rabelo [ Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:36:47 -0300]:

Things like "run level editor" was exatly what I'm "running away from" when I migrate to Suse since version 6.1, it is what I call "steps back" .

No, it's definitely a step forward! After we introduced LSB conforming init scripts and the necessary tools which LSB calls for, it was the next logical step to remove the START_xxxx variables and to depend solely one runlevel links. And the move away from rc.config didn't happen overnight, simply because a monolithic rc.config gets very hard to handle. So the first move was splitting off parts to /etc/rc.config.d (somewhere 7.2 or 7.3) and then /etc/rc.config.d more or less moved to /etc/sysconfig.

I've been using Suse just because it can do this job in a "simple and practic" way, if Suse no longer can do it in the same way, I'll migrate to another one !

Using the runlevel editor in YaST2 or editing the appropriate init script and then calling insserv *is* both simple *and* practical! It's just not the same way it was before. But if you don't like it, nobody's holding you. So use another distribution.

I, in my name and in name of all of my clients, have the rights to scream!!

Scream as much as you want, but don't expect others to chime in.

"Suse can be reaching a lot of new clients with 8.0, but can be loosing a lot of old clients too ! Suse can afford it ???"

Hmm, latest sales figures indicate that 8.0 is doing very well indeed and has the potential to become SuSE's best selling distribution yet. So it seems we don't loose that much but rather gain.

I don't "WANT TO" use another distro, it depends of what Suse will do with 8.1 !

Well, more changes and IMHO quite a few goodies. But rc.config will not come back and the runlevel editor is here to stay.

and one last question : If 8.0 is "so good" why the last upgrades of corporate products fo Suse ( Email Server, Enterprise Server, Connectivity Server ) is based on 7.3 and NOT in 8.0 ???

Because we've guaranteed our customers at least two years of maintenance. Business users go for stability and 'never touch a running system'. That's why the business products are based on SLES7, which again is AFAIK 7.2 based. BTW, SuSE Linux 8.1 will be the base of our SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 (powered by United Linux :). Philipp -- Philipp Thomas work: pthomas@suse.de Development SuSE Linux AG private: philippt@t-online.de

At 11:35 PM +0200 8/1/02, Philipp Thomas wrote:

No, it's definitely a step forward! After we introduced LSB conforming init scripts and the necessary tools which LSB calls for, it was the next logical step to remove the START_xxxx variables and to depend solely one runlevel links.

who cares about lsb?? the START_xxx and rc.config were NICE. Pretty simple to open vi, do a search and make a change. -- http://www.4am-media.com Mac OS X Consulting and Training Michael Bartosh mbartosh@4am-media.com 303.517.0272 Denver, CO "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher regard those who think alike than those who think differently." - -- Nietzsche Think Different.

*Smirk* You have such a poetic way with words sometimes, Ben. Stuart. -----Original Message----- From: Ben Rosenberg [mailto:ben@whack.org] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 18:29 To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] Yast 2 SUCKS !!! <snip> Heck personally I just figured out where they put the damn routing info today *laugh* Even old dogs can figure new bums to sniff eh? ;) -=Ben </snip>

At 11:35 PM +0200 8/1/02, Philipp Thomas wrote: [...] " Suse ruined most of what differentiated itself from other Distros. " [...]

jul.

Jul and Fabio, please keep your quoting straight. Philipp Thomas did *not* say that, it was Michael Bartosh, and quoting the way you do is not only confusing to people new to the thread (reading, for instance, from a web interface out of context with the rest of the thread), it is also tantamount to libel. On Friday 02 August 2002 15:04, Fábio Rabelo wrote:

...

...

At 11:35 PM +0200 8/1/02, Philipp Thomas wrote:

[...] "

...

Suse ruined most of what differentiated itself from other Distros.

"

fully agreed !!!

Fábio Rabelo

-- `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

* Fábio Rabelo; on 02 Aug, 2002 wrote:

Then WHY Suse won't release a generic "Suse Linux 7.4" with all of Kernel and packages there are allready done ??

You can have your 7.XYZ version by just updating the packages a) available on the ftp.suse.com and its mirrors in the update directory b) use the build.rpm ( comes with 8.0) and build your very uptodate packages including the ones that SuSE has not updated since it was not security related. Note that with "build tool" you can build rpms for almost all SuSE versions. c) If I was the deciding person at SuSE I would have rejected your idea ,even though YaST2 is lacking the features of good old YAST1 as it is meaningless to walk backwards when you can walk to future I believe you have read http:///susefaq.sf.net/addingsoftware.html#AEN1904 which basicly tells what you can do to understand building a distro. -- Togan Muftuoglu Unofficial SuSE FAQ Maintainer http://dinamizm.ath.cx

Hello SuSE folkz, Could somebody point me to the sources of information on graphical Linux environments to program desktop interfaces or web interfaces in WYSWYG mode. The programming language doesn't matter at this moment. Many thanks in advance. Alex

On 02 Aug 02, Alex Daniloff (alex@daniloff.com) wrote:

Hello SuSE folks,

One big company management is thinking about developing new software product for engineering applications. This software should include database, web and desktop interfaces. There are two possible choices of OS for this product. Ether they should go with Windoze or make a leap into Linux. Windoze is less stable and more spendy on license costs and cost of additional software for DB and so on and so forth, The company has commercial support from M$ and their executive droids more familiar with Windows. Money is not a big issue for them in this case.

What arguments other than cost and license fees can be made to convence executives to give Linux a try.

Thank you in advance for all thought and conciderations or other sources of information.

There are reports from some current corporate users at http://www.suse.com/us/partner/index.html -- Stephen Patterson Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.

Lourens replying to Alex Daniloff wrote: > Hello SuSE folks, > > One big company management is thinking about developing new > software product for engineering applications. > This software should include database, web and desktop interfaces. > There are two possible choices of OS for this product. > Ether they should go with Windoze or make a leap into Linux. > Windoze is less stable and more spendy on license costs and > cost of additional software for DB and so on and so forth, > The company has commercial support from M$ and their executive > droids more familiar with Windows. > Money is not a big issue for them in this case. > > What arguments other than cost and license fees can be made to > convence > executives to give Linux a try. > COMPUTERWORLD.NZ: PAUL VIXIE: OPEN SOURCE THE ONLY WAY FORWARD "'Eventually,' says internet pioneer Paul Vixie, 'even Microsoft will have to embrace open source...'" COMPLETE STORY: http://www.idg.net.nz/webhome.nsf/NL/1B8AEC1796517F55CC256BF30015ADB4 LINUX JOURNAL: IS TRANSPARENCY THE KILLER VIRTUE? "The ace in Linux' hole may go beyond a free and open nature to something more businesses will demand from everything they depend on: transparency..." COMPLETE STORY: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6196&mode=thread&order=0 LINUX JOURNAL: A SUCCESSFUL LINUX/OPEN-SOURCE BUSINESS MODEL "[This article] discusses how to use the Public Domain and community open-source projects to subvert media conglomerates..." COMPLETE STORY: http://www.linuxjournal.com//article.php?sid=6149 LINUXWORLD: TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP SERIES REVISITED "Implicitly this assumes that A and B produce similar value, or returns to ownership. Since this is rarely the case, most uses of the TCO concept in decision making extend the idea beyond a simple "sum of checks written" to incorporate some acknowledgment of the differences in benefits available from each choice -- even when those differences are largely unquantifiable..." COMPLETE STORY: http://www.linuxworld.com/site-stories/2002/0403.tco.html HTH *** Stay legal - use Free Software! *** Courtesy of SuSE Linux and Open Source Software. Registered Linux User Lourens Steenkamp R.S.A.

* Philipp Thomas (pthomas@suse.de) [020802 09:37]:

Now could we _please_ end this thread? It's getting quite boring for most of the people on this list. For me at least this thread ends here.

It's dead now. -- -ckm

Given the near infinite configurability of Linux, it is almost impossible to write a GUI installer that covers everything. A GUI is very convenient, but is inflexible. For out-of-the-ordinary situations, you have to hand-tweak the system. In Linux this is possible, - try that in Window$. An example with SAX2. I have a Samsung TFT-LCD monitor which is very fastidious about video timings and clock frequencies. I tried to set it up with SAX2, but the results were pretty hopeless. What I then did was to take the mode line settings supplied by the manufacturer of the monitor, and copied them directly into XF86Config with a text editor. With those settings the display works as advertised on all resolutions (1024 x 768, 800 x 600, 640 x 480). A second peculiarlty is that I use an 1152 x 868 virtual screen, and a 1048 x 768 real screen. To get this in SAX2 is impossible. With my GeForce 400 card, a specific line has to be written into XF86Config. Again, once that was done, everything worked. All the instructions were and are available in the XF86Config manpage I recommend Linux primarily on the basis of choice - if you don't like YaST2 - then don't use it. You have the choice of hand adjustments. If you don't like SuSE, use another distribution. I used to be a RedHat user, and it is still running on my backup computer. Some things RedHat does better, some SuSE. I feel that I have improved my SuSE installation by copying features from the RedHat machine. No distribution is perfect. So what is important to me is that I am not constrained to follow SuSE. Perhaps I may change in the future - who knows? But the bottom line remains that I have the freedom to do so. Regards Basil Fowler