not that one! Here pick one! Any will do when you have an axe to grind an agenda and buised feelings Carlos E. R 12 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] why are Leap release notes in Tumbleweed ?? Carlos E. R. 01 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.1 is gold 01 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Recommended pathway from 13.2 to Leap 42 03 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] s.y.s.t.e.m.d default configuration 03 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Flash Player dropped from Tumbleweed and Leap 42.1 01 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] [Leap 42.1] [no keyboard interaction in dracut] [WORKAROUND] was: [LUKS password at boot] 08 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] How does one create the xfce rescue live? [Was: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED] 06 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Re: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED 01 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.1 is gold 07 Nov [opensuse-factory] How does one create THE xfce rescue live? [Was: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED] 02 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Wrong Link on the opensuse Startpage 05 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Flash Player dropped from Tumbleweed and Leap 42.1 06 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Flash Player dropped from Tumbleweed and Leap 42.1 08 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] How does one create THE xfce rescue live? [Was: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED] 09 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] How does one create the xfce rescue live? [Was: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED] 08 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Why Leap does not have libopensync? 06 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Flash Player dropped from Tumbleweed and Leap 42.1 02 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] TW : recent Snapshot 05 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED 12 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] why are Leap release notes in Tumbleweed ?? 10 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Tumbleweed starts slowly without the installation stick 08 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED 07 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED 04 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Flash Player dropped from Tumbleweed and Leap 42.1 08 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] How does one create the xfce rescue live? [Was: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED] 12 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: [Off List] why are Leap release notes in Tumbleweed ?? 05 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Re: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED 01 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Recommended pathway from 13.2 to Leap 42 03 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] s.y.s.t.e.m.d default configuration 01 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] [Leap 42.1] [no keyboard interaction in dracut] [WORKAROUND] was: [LUKS password at boot] 06 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Re: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED 05 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Re: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED 05 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] HTTP/2 on Leap 42.1 - OpenSSL version is to old 11 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: REQUEST implementing process to enable non-home/devel repos for a new release PRIOR to its release 08 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED 02 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.1 is gold 05 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED 05 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Re: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED 02 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Flash Player dropped from Tumbleweed and Leap 42.1 06 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Re: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED 06 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Re: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED 08 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] How does one create the xfce rescue live? [Was: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED] 02 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Wrong Link on the opensuse Startpage 01 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Flash Player dropped from Tumbleweed and Leap 42.1 02 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Flash Player dropped from Tumbleweed and Leap 42.1 13 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: REQUEST implementing process to enable non-home/devel repos for a new release PRIOR to its release 12 Nov [opensuse-factory] Re: [Off List] why are Leap release notes in Tumbleweed ?? 08 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED 08 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] How does one create the xfce rescue live? [Was: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED] 08 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] How does one create the xfce rescue live? [Was: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED] 06 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Re: openSUSE Leap 42.1 is RELEASED 05 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Flash Player dropped from Tumbleweed and Leap 42.1 05 Nov Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Flash Player dropped from Tumbleweed and Leap 42.1 -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/25/2015 06:17 PM, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

What about not attacking people, behaving like an adult and not lying and if you really want, than pickup the right mail? Constant spreading of FUD across various mailing lists was one of the reasons for Carlos ban.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00439.html

in your sick mind you think that was worthy of a ban. Your nuts. Honestly. -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 26/12/2015 11:08, Richard Brown a écrit :

But hopefully with this post people can understand how things came to this point so tempers can calm and we can all move on.

after reading this, I wonder is the reason for this was not (partly) because before leap was released we where asked to use factory for leap. It may not be appropriate to have one list for two very different distros. I also note in your post that "old contributors" are not welcome in favor of new ones. Why was not this "translation" problem discussed on the right (aka translation) mailing list long before? I remember the time when some people decided to make better (that is more organized) the wiki. I didn't agree and simply stepped off the wiki edit, because I'm not a fighter, and see what is the wiki, now: nearly dead; We can success only with aggregating forces, not excluding. I fear this is really a lack of people management in openSUSE. Believe it or not, Richard, I find many of your posts as aggressive, but this is only a personal feeling and it's not a reason for other to be aggressive with you as they are too often. An I acknowledge the great work you do for openSUSE at large (I don't want you to leave). I know I myself tend to write too much, I try (and do not always succeed) to be not longer than a screen page :-). May be a solution would be to limit the number of post one people can post for a day? or 15 minutes? there are always solution jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 26/12/2015 13:06, Richard Brown a écrit :

On 26 December 2015 at 11:30, jdd wrote:

...

Le 26/12/2015 11:08, Richard Brown a écrit :

...

But hopefully with this post people can understand how things came to this point so tempers can calm and we can all move on.

after reading this, I wonder is the reason for this was not (partly) because before leap was released we where asked to use factory for leap.

It may not be appropriate to have one list for two very different distros.

I do not see how your suggestion is remotely relevant to the issues I highlighted in my email

I feel that Tumbleweed is more a developer distribution, and leap more a user oriented one. I do not follow factory because I'm not a developer. It's usual on opensuse@ to ask when one find a bug to see if it's not and old bug, very well known or simply a lack of understanding. Opening bugzilla entries that are not really needed is also a nuisance, so we have to make a balance. I think Carlos was more on the user part on the wrong list, but there was no other...

make this even clearer, but really it should go without saying, as it has not changed in the 10 year history of the Project.

it changed since Tumbleweed become official

...

I also note in your post that "old contributors" are not welcome in favor of new ones.

No, I welcome both "old contributors" and "new contributors", but in the case of Translation the debate was more between "contributors" and "former contributors" (ie. those who had contributed to previous releases, but were not translating Tumbleweed or Leap. In the case of Carlos I would actually describe him as 'actively not contributing', as he was aggressively pushing the argument that Tumbleweed COULD NOT be translated..)

well, looks like Leap was not really translated as well. I was not involved in the openSUSE translation recently, but I'm member of the french general translation project, so I know how much writers are attached to they usual translation system, I even know some that develop they own one. So having a mechanism to share work from various origins is essential IMHO for translation purpose.

...

Why was not this "translation" problem discussed on the right (aka translation) mailing list long before?

It was discussed long before, but some of those "old contributors" effectively blocked the idea via bikeshedding

I feel you are using "bikeshedding" as a way to describe things that you don't like. You say I don't understand you, it's possible, but may be you don't understand me (and others). I know it's difficult to understand each others. It's a shame that this discussion become too personal and would like to see other board members write also to say they feeling, because the ban was a board decision (if I understand well) and you shouldn't be criticized for a collective decision.

It's an unfortunate fact of open source life that discussion only has a limited impact, where as 'action' defines where the Project goes. In this case, the Weblate contributors decided, based on previous experience, that instead of discussing first, then doing, they would do first then discuss

13.2 was translated. Leap no so well, so yes something went in between and the main thing I see is the system change in translation. I may be wrong. Is there somewhere a list of the active translators?

Because there was lots of talk about how the wiki should be, and not much action - your stepping back was part of that problem.

I was saying the new system was making things harder to participate, did people that wanted the new system really participate? They should. I could do work in a more useful manner elsewhere. My idea was than the only goal is to make people participate and the new system was against that. It looks like the translation problem is similar, it makes participation harder, not simpler.

I do not believe that to be the case, and so I work hard to support the Project and make it easier for people to actually DO stuff.

can you elaborate how this last sentence is made true? What have been made to make it easier for people to actually Do stuff? Where is the stuff?

As a volunteer project, 'people management' is a complicated topic. You cannot 'manage' volunteers.

yes, you can. May be it was done by Jos time ago. It's hard, because one have to convince, make changes, but not too fast... hard job indeed, but unavoidable

If that fails, if the individuals involved refuse to listen and disrupt the activities of the rest of the Project, sadly the only option left is exclusion.

exclusion is the death of a project...

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I also believe that there is a high proportion of my emails which you do not fully understand, as quite often demonstrated by your responses.

understanding is not agreement. Lack of understanding is common, both ways. too long mails as this one should not happen too often. we of course need developers, but we also need many volunteers to write doc, translate, organize install parties... yours sincerely jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 26 December 2015 at 18:49, jdd wrote:

Le 26/12/2015 13:06, Richard Brown a écrit :

...

On 26 December 2015 at 11:30, jdd wrote:

...

Le 26/12/2015 11:08, Richard Brown a écrit :

...

But hopefully with this post people can understand how things came to this point so tempers can calm and we can all move on.

after reading this, I wonder is the reason for this was not (partly) because before leap was released we where asked to use factory for leap.

It may not be appropriate to have one list for two very different distros.

I do not see how your suggestion is remotely relevant to the issues I highlighted in my email

I feel that Tumbleweed is more a developer distribution, and leap more a user oriented one. I do not follow factory because I'm not a developer.

It's usual on opensuse@ to ask when one find a bug to see if it's not and old bug, very well known or simply a lack of understanding. Opening bugzilla entries that are not really needed is also a nuisance, so we have to make a balance. I think Carlos was more on the user part on the wrong list, but there was no other...

That's fine, but that was also the point of the complainants against Carlos' posts in -factory. Carlos' posts regarding Tumbleweed were more relevant for this list, not a developer list There is a valid list for user questions regarding both openSUSE Tumbleweed and openSUSE Leap, it is opensuse@opensuse.org

...

make this even clearer, but really it should go without saying, as it has not changed in the 10 year history of the Project.

it changed since Tumbleweed become official

No it hasn't - opensuse-factory@ is still the development mailinglist of the openSUSE Project, opensuse@ is still the user/support mailinglist of the openSUSE Project

...

...

I also note in your post that "old contributors" are not welcome in favor of new ones.

No, I welcome both "old contributors" and "new contributors", but in the case of Translation the debate was more between "contributors" and "former contributors" (ie. those who had contributed to previous releases, but were not translating Tumbleweed or Leap. In the case of Carlos I would actually describe him as 'actively not contributing', as he was aggressively pushing the argument that Tumbleweed COULD NOT be translated..)

well, looks like Leap was not really translated as well. I was not involved in the openSUSE translation recently, but I'm member of the french general translation project, so I know how much writers are attached to they usual translation system, I even know some that develop they own one. So having a mechanism to share work from various origins is essential IMHO for translation purpose.

Yes, exactly, and this is the problem Weblate hopes to resolve. The fact we got as much translated in Leap as we did suggests that the efforts have not been wasted.

...

...

Why was not this "translation" problem discussed on the right (aka translation) mailing list long before?

It was discussed long before, but some of those "old contributors" effectively blocked the idea via bikeshedding

I feel you are using "bikeshedding" as a way to describe things that you don't like. You say I don't understand you, it's possible, but may be you don't understand me (and others). I know it's difficult to understand each others. It's a shame that this discussion become too personal and would like to see other board members write also to say they feeling, because the ban was a board decision (if I understand well) and you shouldn't be criticized for a collective decision.

I am using "bikeshedding" as a way to describe unproductive discussions that do not lead to anyone taking any action. If a discussion ends without anyone actually doing something as a result of that discussion, I consider the entire topic 'bikeshedded'. This was certainly, unquestionably, true with the first discussion regarding Weblate, which resulted in nothing changing, even after it became apparent the old system was truely broken. list of the active translators?

...

I do not believe that to be the case, and so I work hard to support the Project and make it easier for people to actually DO stuff.

can you elaborate how this last sentence is made true? What have been made to make it easier for people to actually Do stuff? Where is the stuff?

Examples I can think of in recent memory (Some of these were directly done by me, others were nothing to do with me but are examples of the Project doing things which follow the trend of opening things up so more people can contribute) Leap Actions Taken: Made it easier for SLE developers to contribute by using SLE code Result? Providing the Base System for Leap Leap Actions Taken: Made it easier for ANY contributor to select which packages are in Leap as documented in https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:How_to_contribute_to_Leap Result? More packages in Leap than in 13.2 - ntire structure of Leap was decided by the community - how much was SLE, how much was openSUSE was a function of this action. Leap Actions Taken: Named and Numbered by the Community Result? openSUSE Leap was a name proposed by a totally new contributor who joined our project after reading about our naming discussions regarding the new distribution. Tumbleweed Actions Taken: Merging Factory and Tumbleweed as one single Rolling Release offering instead of having the Factory and Tumbleweed contributions 'split' Result? More packages. More contributors. Exceptional user base growth - http://i.imgur.com/UnuN1et.png Website Actions Taken: Totally new website built in https://github.com/openSUSE/landing-page Result? More contributors working on the new landing page in 6 months than we had on the old one in a grand total of 10 years. Actual products of the Project better reflected. Increased press coverage Wiki: Actions Taken: Removing the restrictions on the majority of the wiki pages so anyone can contribute Result? Actually..not much of one..this was something lots of people asked for but now we've done it we haven't seen an expected uptick in wiki edits, sadly. Branding: Actions Taken: Publicly posted branding guidelines https://opensuse.github.io/branding-guidelines/ Result? Consistent, community made marketing materials seen as far and wide as Taiwan, Japan, California Result? New openSUSE Leap design which was the first branding package since 11.4 which *I* personally didn't have to touch because we had other contributors doing it Fonts: Actions Taken: Proposed a revamp of the default fonts to reduce the need of workaround technologies like subpixel hinting Result? A whole bunch of new and established contributors implementing a community selected collection of fonts across our distributions Translations Action Taken: Weblate soft-launched, some things translated in it Result? New contributors to the translation teams, things that otherwise wouldn't have been translatable for Leap or Tumbleweed are now translated in both Leap and Tumbleweed.

...

As a volunteer project, 'people management' is a complicated topic. You cannot 'manage' volunteers.

yes, you can. May be it was done by Jos time ago. It's hard, because one have to convince, make changes, but not too fast... hard job indeed, but unavoidable

I think you misunderstand the work Jos used to do for the Project.

...

If that fails, if the individuals involved refuse to listen and disrupt the activities of the rest of the Project, sadly the only option left is exclusion.

exclusion is the death of a project...

No, it is not. It's not ideal, but it's something necessary. Some very well respected Google developers talked a great deal on this. As Kostas quoted this when the Board was trying to discuss matters with Carlos I think it's relevant I share it here also - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q52kFL8zVoM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 26 December 2015 at 20:15, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Richard Brown [12-26-15 15:04]:

...

On 26 December 2015 at 18:49, jdd wrote: [...] There is a valid list for user questions regarding both openSUSE Tumbleweed and openSUSE Leap, it is opensuse@opensuse.org

...

...

make this even clearer, but really it should go without saying, as it has not changed in the 10 year history of the Project.

it changed since Tumbleweed become official

No it hasn't - opensuse-factory@ is still the development mailinglist of the openSUSE Project, opensuse@ is still the user/support mailinglist of the openSUSE Project

But it has and has not really been announced as changed. Originally Tw was considered a development/factory project and The Originator of Tw, Greg KH himself requested that discussion relevant to Tw be on the opensuse-factory list. No change from that stance has be made officially, or announced on opensuse-factory.

opensuse-factory@ as this Projects developer list and opensuse@ as this Project's user/support list is not a change GregKH's Tumbleweed was retired when Factory and Tumbleweed merged, so Greg's statements should no longer be followed. When Factory and Tumbleweed merged, Tumbleweed ceased being maintained by Greg who would only pay attention to opensuse-factory. It is now a major distribution of the openSUSE Project. This has been stated 'officially' numerous times by numerous people, including myself. This was also recently clarified by Henne, our mailinglist administrator - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-12/msg00136.html So I'm afraid I respectfully have to disagree that this a change, and that the status quo hasn't been made clear Henne has also recently slightly reworded the descriptions on http://lists.opensuse.org with clearer language to make it even more readily clear Hope this helps - Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/26/2015 06:10 PM, jdd wrote:

yes, for now and the future. a proof is necessary than discussion is useful

No it is not. No machinations of tumbleweed politics have any baring on Carlos being banned, especially HERE -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/26/2015 07:20 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

This was also recently clarified by Henne, our mailinglist

...

administrator - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-12/msg00136.html Afraid I must have missed that one.

Oh - just to be clear, Carlos was banned before that, not that facts should get in the way of a good excuse for misbehaving. Ruben -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 26/12/2015 21:03, Richard Brown a écrit :

On 26 December 2015 at 18:49, jdd wrote:

...

Le 26/12/2015 13:06, Richard Brown a écrit :

...

...

I do not believe that to be the case, and so I work hard to support the Project and make it easier for people to actually DO stuff.

can you elaborate how this last sentence is made true? What have been made to make it easier for people to actually Do stuff? Where is the stuff?

Examples I can think of in recent memory (Some of these were directly done by me, others were nothing to do with me but are examples of the Project doing things which follow the trend of opening things up so more people can contribute)

in your list, I see very few "make it easier"

Leap Actions Taken: Made it easier for SLE developers to contribute by using SLE code Result? Providing the Base System for Leap

*SLE developers* that is suse employees? this do not make it easier for them to contribute, this simply uses the previous / paid work in favor of openSUSE. do you mean it's you that convinced SUSE to share SLES? If so, thanks.

Leap Actions Taken: Made it easier for ANY contributor to select which packages are in Leap as documented in https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:How_to_contribute_to_Leap

for you contributor==developper? I don't see any mean I (for example) could select any package. There could be a suggestion list, wish list... what existing package do you think Leap could benefit? on project or may be it was asked?

Result? More packages in Leap than in 13.2 - ntire structure of Leap was decided by the community - how much was SLE, how much was openSUSE was a function of this action.

really? "ntire structure of Leap was decided by the community" where for you begin the community and where does it end? looks like it's only factory readers...

Leap Actions Taken: Named and Numbered by the Community Result? openSUSE Leap was a name proposed by a totally new contributor who joined our project after reading about our naming discussions regarding the new distribution.

what did you do to acheive this? "how to name the baby" was not lauched by you (http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-07/), you only wrote the result: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-07/msg00054.html

Website Actions Taken: Totally new website built in https://github.com/openSUSE/landing-page Result? More contributors working on the new landing page in 6 months than we had on the old one in a grand total of 10 years. Actual products of the Project better reflected. Increased press coverage

one page... that made the wiki nearly desapear. And was not the landing page blocked before?

Wiki: Actions Taken: Removing the restrictions on the majority of the wiki pages so anyone can contribute Result? Actually..not much of one..this was something lots of people asked for but now we've done it we haven't seen an expected uptick in wiki edits, sadly.

good. I didn't see this. Where is the wiki team? if so why hide the wiki in the main page? should be more publicized

Branding: Actions Taken: Publicly posted branding guidelines

this is many years old, come as far as 2007 (https://en.opensuse.org/index.php?title=openSUSE:Artwork_brand&action=history) I never said you don't do work and useful work, but if I remember it's you that asked for more non developpers commitment (at OSC15) and it's the part I know the better, and there I see little. Wiki and translation are probably the two parts to work on more (apart development, of course). I myself proposed to help contacting members and was said "do not worry, a script is comming". I never have seen the script and was discouraged to make the work... sorry to be long, I will stop now, this is not to be a discussion between you and me alone jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/26/2015 05:33 PM, Linda Walsh wrote:

I certainly don't see that as a reason to ban something (though some people apparently do).

Ban, they didn't Ban ... They just temporary revealed themselves of a complaint until they could gather themselves together to achive their real goal which is to crush the community into conforming with their views. whatever those views are. ANTONY But yesterday the word of Caesar might Have stood against the world; now lies he there. And none so poor to do him reverence. O masters, if I were disposed to stir Your hearts and minds to mutiny and rage, I should do Brutus wrong, and Cassius wrong, Who, you all know, are honourable men: I will not do them wrong; I rather choose To wrong the dead, to wrong myself and you, Than I will wrong such honourable men. But here's a parchment with the seal of Caesar; I found it in his closet, 'tis his will: Let but the commons hear this testament-- Which, pardon me, I do not mean to read-- And they would go and kiss dead Caesar's wounds And dip their napkins in his sacred blood, Yea, beg a hair of him for memory, And, dying, mention it within their wills, Bequeathing it as a rich legacy Unto their issue. -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 26/12/2015 23:52, Ruben Safir a écrit : (...) sorry, Ruben, but I can't support nor let anybody think I could support it (the post subject) in any manner. It's clear that I have some differences with Richard, but he made lot of interesting work and I would be sad if he would resign. He do not refuse discussion and have perfect right to defend his opinions as openSUSE project member and as board chairman (seems to me obvious). I do not appreciate the Carlos ban, but as it is for a short time, it's not that a kill, and it would not be consistent to ask to ban anybody else... jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/26/2015 03:09 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:

On 12/26/2015 06:02 PM, jdd wrote:

...

Le 26/12/2015 23:52, Ruben Safir a écrit : (...)

sorry, Ruben, but I can't support nor let anybody think I could support it (the post subject) in any manner. It's clear that I have some differences with Richard, but he made lot of interesting work and I would be sad if he would resign.

He do not refuse discussion and have perfect right to defend his opinions as openSUSE project member and as board chairman (seems to me obvious).

I do not appreciate the Carlos ban, but as it is for a short time, it's not that a kill, and it would not be consistent to ask to ban anybody else...

jdd The community demands his resignation NOW

Huh? I'm demanding a resignation? That's news to me! Is Ruben a "community organizer"? Is that a paid position? Can I organize too? Regards, Lew "...can we all get along? Can we get along?" R. King -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/27/2015 05:27 AM, Bob Williams wrote:

On 26/12/15 23:09, Ruben Safir wrote:

...

The community demands his resignation NOW

Which community do you claim to represent?

well not Oswald Mosley's community, that is for sure. -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

jdd schreef op 27-12-2015 0:02:

I do not appreciate the Carlos ban, but as it is for a short time, it's not that a kill, and it would not be consistent to ask to ban anybody else...

jdd

There is one thing to say though: (Forum) bans do not enlighten the person who was banned, and do not resolve any conflict. So, as Carlos has stated himself (as was forwarded by other members) how is he supposed to change his behaviour if he can't understand what he did wrong? The result of this is that these bans are often permament. They don't clean the slate and a temp ban is often quickly followed by a more permanent ban. Do not for one minute assume that this is a solution to a problem at this case, unless they take the opportunity to look at their own conduct as forum or community "moderators". Regards. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Ruben Safir composed on 2015-12-26 18:25 (UTC-0500):

Carlos, however, has been prevented from helping maybe 200 users.

Where did that number come from? While Carlos clearly has been prevented from indirectly helping (limiting growth of web search database's opensuse.org content), nothing in the ban has materially affected his opportunity to help via direct email reply. The ban has very different impact in the forums, but that isn't relevant to discuss here. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Ruben Safir composed on 2015-12-26 19:18 (UTC-0500):

you think that he sits with baited bredth reading posts on the website to email users privately?

No. He does it same as before, as they come into his emailbox. He only needs click on a different reply button than before, and the results don't get peer reviewed or archived. The ban really didn't have any direct mailing list impact. Most impact has been in the form of these pointless threads discussing it. Other impacts, not relevant to the mailing lists, took the form of halting Carlos' contributions to translation, and putting Carlos helping people via forums on 3 month hiatus. IOW, zero positive impact. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

How is below related to this list at all? Ban him from factory if you must but why from lists where, at least so far from what I have seen, he committed no transgressions? On 12/26/2015 04:08 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

On 25 December 2015 at 23:24, Ruben Safir wrote:

...

On 12/25/2015 06:17 PM, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

...

What about not attacking people, behaving like an adult and not lying and if you really want, than pickup the right mail? Constant spreading of FUD across various mailing lists was one of the reasons for Carlos ban.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00439.html

in your sick mind you think that was worthy of a ban.

Your nuts.

Honestly.

Honestly, conducting yourself in accordance with our guiding principles ( https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Guiding_principles ) would be a lot productive. Please calm down, review the link, and lets discuss anything which needs to be discussed in a respectful, adult, way, please?

As both I and now Michal have explained, there was not one post or incident that triggered Carlos' ban

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00439.html was the final straw after a long string of issues on the -project, -factory, and -translation mailinglists

I'll try to tackle this chronologically, but as this was a long drawn out affair I apologise in advance with anything I get muddled

I think the first incident of relevance to this topic is the fact that Carlos was banned from forums.opensuse.org for repeatedly instigating & participating in unproductive discussions and arguments, including arguments with the admin staff of the forums. I do not have links to share on that as I was not personally a witness, but one of our admins posted about it here (in a thread which I will refer to more later): http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00806.html

--

One major incident (that included a number of examples which contributed to the ban) was the situation with translations

This story is long and complicated, so for the sake of clarity and in the hope of putting this topic to bed I will do my best to summarise it here

With the increased focused on Tumbleweed, and the fundamental changes to how Leap was being put together, it was clear that the previous tools, processes, and methods of our translation teams were no longer up to the job

Or, to put it another way, Tumbleweed and Leap wasn't being translated at all. Carlos actually did a very good job of raising this concern some weeks before - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-09/msg00777.html

Some years ago, there was an effort by a number of contributors to implement 'Weblate' as a translation tool for openSUSE. It had some support from some translators, and significant support from developers across the project (as it was better aligned with the tooling and processes they were using, eg. git - therefore making it easier for them to contribute also). However there was vocal objection to it from some of our existing translators, including Carlos

With both Tumbleweed and Leap translations paralysed by a lack of translations, a number of contributors took it upon themselves to implement Weblate and, as a proof of concept, went ahead and relocated some of the files requiring translation to Weblate

This was spotted by Carlos, who objected on the openSUSE -project list

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-10/msg00052.html

and the -translation lists

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2015-10/msg00016.html

Now there are a LOT of those posts in those threads, and if people have an interest in their topic I encourage them to read them. But in a nutshell the situation boiled down to we had a contributor (Carlos) who was very vocally objecting to contributions from others (those doing Weblate).. and yet, the issues the Weblate team were trying to fix (translation of Tumbleweed and Leap) were two things which Carlos himself admitted were not being done using the old method. The fact that Carlos and other seasoned translators had already rejected Weblate is somewhat immaterial, we had new contributors working to fix the issues the Project is actually facing now.

openSUSE is a Project that exists only because of its volunteer contributions. Having individuals criticising and attempting to block contributions needlessly is a toxic behaviour which dramatically impedes the productivity of our project. So in this case, I still feel Carlos was greatly in the wrong. I was also dreadfully concerned by his prevalent 'us vs them' attitude, which I posted about http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2015-10/msg00131.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2015-10/msg00082.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2015-10/msg00051.html

The whole sordid mess somewhat died down when people actually started using Weblate to translate parts of Leap, but Carlos' mindset and behaviour with that topic is important to keep in mind if you want to understand the Board's collective decision making process.

--

A separate long, ongoing issue with Carlos on the factory mailinglist was what is now being described as the production of 'noise'. opensuse-factory is by definition and design a 'working' mailinglist, intended to productive discussions relevant to the development of the openSUSE distributions. Noise (off topic posts or posts with little or no content) ends up being junk which every developer has to sift through in order to conduct their regular contributions to openSUSE. Carlos has a well deserved reputation for being a huge source of such noise. He would regularly post short responses like "Yup" "I agree" and such - the kind of thing which might have a place in an opensuse-chat mailinglist or perhaps even this opensuse@ support list, but in a list where we're meant to be discussing the development of our distributions, it was quite an annoyance. Also, even the more substantial posts he did provide, often conveyed a very strong 'I'm not a developer but you should do what I say' attitude..the kind of 'us vs them' attitude which raised it's ugly head during the translation issue.

In small doses, none of these issues would be worth mentioning, but you have to consider that Carlos's prolific posting rate (one of the reasons he clearly is so popular here) meant that he was single handedly responsible for a huge percentage of the -factory mailinglist traffic. An avowed non-developer, producing 10%+ of all the traffic on the 800+ subscriber openSUSE development mailinglist is, no matter how well meaning, a nuisance, especially when most of those posts are easily classified as 'noise' and not helpful to the development of the openSUSE distributions.

For example, Carlos regularly would post off topic, bug-report like posts, such as http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00019.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00028.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00045.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00047.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00049.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00062.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00063.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00454.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00679.html

And I'm sure there are more examples, I just don't want to spend hours writing this mail.

On multiple occasions Carlos was informed to file bugs in bugzilla, where bugs are meant to be reported. http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00019.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00045.html but the bug-like reports continued.

In the end, the patience of other contributors started to fray, as clearly visible in this post from Martin - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00688.html

Carlos responded in what, sadly, a typically argumentative way, incorrectly declaring the purpose of the factory mailinglist (it is, and will likely always be, the projects main development list) - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00693.html

At this point, Andrew Wafaa from the openSUSE Board provided Carlos with a final warning, summarising the concerns we had regarding his behaviour - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00709.html

He responded in an argumentative manner.. http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00723.html

The thread bounced around a bit while people less aware of Carlos' behaviour asked questions. This led to Jim's explanation from the Forum admins team - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00806.html and Andrew from the Board - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00745.html

It also included posts much like this one from me (just a lot shorter) citing more examples of behaviour which the Board considered - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00776.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00781.html

I also tried again to reason with Carlos and better explain the scope and scale of the Boards concerns - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00877.html

And despite a bit of back and forth discussion even after that point, the end result was that everyone moved on, and Carlos continued posting, and for a while everything actually seemed to be going well. For the time immediately after the Boards final warning, I would personally categorise Carlos' posts, manner, attitude, all being dramatically improved, as if he had taken on board the feedback from the Board. There was one or two posts which I felt might have walked 'upto the line' of what is acceptable, but the line wasn't crossed, and so I was quite pleased and hopeful.

And then Carlos posted http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00439.html which contained a personal attack against a contributor (me), undermining the contributions of others (the Weblate, Tumbleweed, and Leap contributors), and clearly carrying the 'us vs them' attitude which had been cited in the Boards final warning to Carlos. This was considered so egregious that even aged veterans of the project like Andreas Jaegar spoke up against it - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00451.html

Carlos explained the outburst was fueled by Vodka, but given both the long history of Carlos' behaviour and the more recent history and of course the final warning, the Board felt it had no choice but to take action, recommending to the Mailinglist and Forums admin that Carlos be banned until 14th February

And here we are today.. I understand how the patrons of the opensuse@opensuse.org mailinglist can have a very different perspective on Carlos, and I understand how the ban has prevented him from contributing here. It is unfortunate, but the Board's responsibility is to the whole Project, and Carlos' behaviour was having an impact across many aspects of the project.

I have not written this post as an attempt to vilify Carlos. I have done my best to reflect the facts, quote the actual posts involved, and from my perspective when his ban is lifted he will have every chance to come back and contribute in the productive, constructive, way we all want.

But hopefully with this post people can understand how things came to this point so tempers can calm and we can all move on.

- Rich

-- --Moby They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Dec 26, 2015 at 4:32 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

How is below related to this list at all? Ban him from factory if you must but why from lists where, at least so far from what I have seen, he committed no transgressions?

I think they even banned Carlos from -offtopic. That's a place people are normally banned to!

Unbelieavable... To blame agressivity and offensiveness on Caros? I do not remember through all years on the list he ever wrote anything even impolite. What a shame... (As we'd say in Russian, I have no words, just expressions :-( ) It is probably trivial thought, but this distro is not only for developers but at least partially for the users. So if users and especially "former contributors" are not happy, maybe it's time to think better. Of course it's much easier to call it "noise", "offensiveness" or some similar names. -- Mark Goldstein -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

As much as I am against banning of any sort on any list, I completely fail to understand why Carlos got banned from this list where he had committed no transgressions; or did I miss the claim somewhere that Carlos had committed some transgressions on this list as well? Can any of the moderators or members of the board explain that please? On 12/26/2015 11:00 AM, Stevens wrote:

I try not to post much any more, having incurred the wrath of a previous list administration but in this case I will make an exception. In my opinion, Carlos should not have been banned from this, the opensuse list, no matter how much he had irritated the list gods on other lists. The fact that he generated much "noise" could have been addressed by a simple "sit down and shut up" admonition. Maybe that was done, I do not know. I do know that his contributions on this list have helped me many times and I was disheartened to discover that he had been banned from this list in a rather broad brush stroke but that was the decision of the moderators and proved, once again, that if you are really active, involved and passionate (as any Spaniard should be) and post a lot, you too, will run the risk of being booted.

Again, my opinion only. If the moderators could somehow "un-ban" Carlos on this list by, say 1 Jan, his penance would have been served here, he would still be banned from the list most affected by his "noise" and we could have the benefit of his helpful insight once again. IMHO.

Thanks, Fred

-- --Moby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 26/12/2015 20:42, Felix Miata a écrit :

Carlos AFAICT has only been banned from posting, not from receiving email. Thus he is free to use the idiotic non-munged default reply, which is not to any list itself, but unmoderated and unpeered directly and only to the list poster.

and he does it... but we don't benefit of the answer jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/26/2015 05:08 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

On 25 December 2015 at 23:24, Ruben Safir wrote:

...

On 12/25/2015 06:17 PM, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

...

What about not attacking people, behaving like an adult and not lying and if you really want, than pickup the right mail? Constant spreading of FUD across various mailing lists was one of the reasons for Carlos ban.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00439.html

in your sick mind you think that was worthy of a ban.

Your nuts.

Honestly.

Honestly, conducting yourself in accordance with our guiding principles ( https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Guiding_principles ) would be a lot productive. Please calm down, review the link, and lets discuss anything which needs to be discussed in a respectful, adult, way, please?

As both I and now Michal have explained, there was not one post or incident that triggered Carlos' ban

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00439.html was the final straw after a long string of issues on the -project, -factory, and -translation mailinglists

I'll try to tackle this chronologically, but as this was a long drawn out affair I apologise in advance with anything I get muddled

I think the first incident of relevance to this topic is the fact that Carlos was banned from forums.opensuse.org for repeatedly instigating & participating in unproductive discussions and arguments, including arguments with the admin staff of the forums. I do not have links to share on that as I was not personally a witness, but one of our admins posted about it here (in a thread which I will refer to more later): http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00806.html

--

One major incident (that included a number of examples which contributed to the ban) was the situation with translations

This story is long and complicated, so for the sake of clarity and in the hope of putting this topic to bed I will do my best to summarise it here

With the increased focused on Tumbleweed, and the fundamental changes to how Leap was being put together, it was clear that the previous tools, processes, and methods of our translation teams were no longer up to the job

Or, to put it another way, Tumbleweed and Leap wasn't being translated at all. Carlos actually did a very good job of raising this concern some weeks before - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-09/msg00777.html

Some years ago, there was an effort by a number of contributors to implement 'Weblate' as a translation tool for openSUSE. It had some support from some translators, and significant support from developers across the project (as it was better aligned with the tooling and processes they were using, eg. git - therefore making it easier for them to contribute also). However there was vocal objection to it from some of our existing translators, including Carlos

With both Tumbleweed and Leap translations paralysed by a lack of translations, a number of contributors took it upon themselves to implement Weblate and, as a proof of concept, went ahead and relocated some of the files requiring translation to Weblate

This was spotted by Carlos, who objected on the openSUSE -project list

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-10/msg00052.html

and the -translation lists

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2015-10/msg00016.html

Now there are a LOT of those posts in those threads, and if people have an interest in their topic I encourage them to read them. But in a nutshell the situation boiled down to we had a contributor (Carlos) who was very vocally objecting to contributions from others (those doing Weblate).. and yet, the issues the Weblate team were trying to fix (translation of Tumbleweed and Leap) were two things which Carlos himself admitted were not being done using the old method. The fact that Carlos and other seasoned translators had already rejected Weblate is somewhat immaterial, we had new contributors working to fix the issues the Project is actually facing now.

openSUSE is a Project that exists only because of its volunteer contributions. Having individuals criticising and attempting to block contributions needlessly is a toxic behaviour which dramatically impedes the productivity of our project. So in this case, I still feel Carlos was greatly in the wrong. I was also dreadfully concerned by his prevalent 'us vs them' attitude, which I posted about http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2015-10/msg00131.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2015-10/msg00082.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2015-10/msg00051.html

The whole sordid mess somewhat died down when people actually started using Weblate to translate parts of Leap, but Carlos' mindset and behaviour with that topic is important to keep in mind if you want to understand the Board's collective decision making process.

--

A separate long, ongoing issue with Carlos on the factory mailinglist was what is now being described as the production of 'noise'. opensuse-factory is by definition and design a 'working' mailinglist, intended to productive discussions relevant to the development of the openSUSE distributions. Noise (off topic posts or posts with little or no content) ends up being junk which every developer has to sift through in order to conduct their regular contributions to openSUSE. Carlos has a well deserved reputation for being a huge source of such noise. He would regularly post short responses like "Yup" "I agree" and such - the kind of thing which might have a place in an opensuse-chat mailinglist or perhaps even this opensuse@ support list, but in a list where we're meant to be discussing the development of our distributions, it was quite an annoyance. Also, even the more substantial posts he did provide, often conveyed a very strong 'I'm not a developer but you should do what I say' attitude..the kind of 'us vs them' attitude which raised it's ugly head during the translation issue.

In small doses, none of these issues would be worth mentioning, but you have to consider that Carlos's prolific posting rate (one of the reasons he clearly is so popular here) meant that he was single handedly responsible for a huge percentage of the -factory mailinglist traffic. An avowed non-developer, producing 10%+ of all the traffic on the 800+ subscriber openSUSE development mailinglist is, no matter how well meaning, a nuisance, especially when most of those posts are easily classified as 'noise' and not helpful to the development of the openSUSE distributions.

For example, Carlos regularly would post off topic, bug-report like posts, such as http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00019.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00028.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00045.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00047.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00049.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00062.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00063.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00454.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00679.html

And I'm sure there are more examples, I just don't want to spend hours writing this mail.

On multiple occasions Carlos was informed to file bugs in bugzilla, where bugs are meant to be reported. http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00019.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00045.html but the bug-like reports continued.

In the end, the patience of other contributors started to fray, as clearly visible in this post from Martin - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00688.html

Carlos responded in what, sadly, a typically argumentative way, incorrectly declaring the purpose of the factory mailinglist (it is, and will likely always be, the projects main development list) - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00693.html

At this point, Andrew Wafaa from the openSUSE Board provided Carlos with a final warning, summarising the concerns we had regarding his behaviour - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00709.html

He responded in an argumentative manner.. http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00723.html

The thread bounced around a bit while people less aware of Carlos' behaviour asked questions. This led to Jim's explanation from the Forum admins team - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00806.html and Andrew from the Board - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00745.html

It also included posts much like this one from me (just a lot shorter) citing more examples of behaviour which the Board considered - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00776.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00781.html

ANTONY Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears; I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him. The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones; So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus Hath told you Caesar was ambitious: If it were so, it was a grievous fault, And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it. Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest-- For Brutus is an honourable man; So are they all, all honourable men- Come I to speak in Caesar's funeral. He was my friend, faithful and just to me: But Brutus says he was ambitious; And Brutus is an honourable man. He hath brought many captives home to Rome Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill: Did this in Caesar seem ambitious? When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept: Ambition should be made of sterner stuff: Yet Brutus says he was ambitious; And Brutus is an honourable man. You all did see that on the Lupercal I thrice presented him a kingly crown, Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition? Yet Brutus says he was ambitious; And, sure, he is an honourable man. I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke, But here I am to speak what I do know. You all did love him once, not without cause: What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him? O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts, And men have lost their reason. Bear with me; My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar, And I must pause till it come back to me.

I also tried again to reason with Carlos and better explain the scope and scale of the Boards concerns - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-10/msg00877.html

And despite a bit of back and forth discussion even after that point, the end result was that everyone moved on, and Carlos continued posting, and for a while everything actually seemed to be going well. For the time immediately after the Boards final warning, I would personally categorise Carlos' posts, manner, attitude, all being dramatically improved, as if he had taken on board the feedback from the Board. There was one or two posts which I felt might have walked 'upto the line' of what is acceptable, but the line wasn't crossed, and so I was quite pleased and hopeful.

And then Carlos posted http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00439.html which contained a personal attack against a contributor (me), undermining the contributions of others (the Weblate, Tumbleweed, and Leap contributors), and clearly carrying the 'us vs them' attitude which had been cited in the Boards final warning to Carlos. This was considered so egregious that even aged veterans of the project like Andreas Jaegar spoke up against it - http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00451.html

Carlos explained the outburst was fueled by Vodka, but given both the long history of Carlos' behaviour and the more recent history and of course the final warning, the Board felt it had no choice but to take action, recommending to the Mailinglist and Forums admin that Carlos be banned until 14th February

And here we are today.. I understand how the patrons of the opensuse@opensuse.org mailinglist can have a very different perspective on Carlos, and I understand how the ban has prevented him from contributing here. It is unfortunate, but the Board's responsibility is to the whole Project, and Carlos' behaviour was having an impact across many aspects of the project.

I have not written this post as an attempt to vilify Carlos. I have done my best to reflect the facts, quote the actual posts involved, and from my perspective when his ban is lifted he will have every chance to come back and contribute in the productive, constructive, way we all want.

But hopefully with this post people can understand how things came to this point so tempers can calm and we can all move on.

- Rich

-- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Michal Hrusecky wrote:

What about not attacking people, behaving like an adult and not lying and if you really want, than pickup the right mail? Constant spreading of FUD across various mailing lists was one of the reasons for Carlos ban.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00439.html

Who did he attack? I see a reference to "them", which seem to be deliberately trying to avoid any personal attack. The only people who would feel attacked by use of "them" in his note, would be those who put themselves in Carlos's "them" group. Not behaving like an adult? Please, that's hardly an adult judgment. It seems like you are engaging in similar attacking and juvenile behaviors that you accuse Carlos of. Spreading FUD? Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt? Name me one user who hasn't had fear uncertainty and doubt with 100's of changes needed to support a supposedly faster[sic] boot process. I saw nothing wrong with his posts -- as long as you don't consider Carlos "The Authority, God, of OpenSUSE" -- he's just another user who can make mistakes and have problems just like any of us. Of course there are those who find anyone who feels differently from them as being a "threat". If you don't choose to take his criticisms on "them", "personally" then it doesn't seem they would be problematic. It reminds me of a wonderful little saying that is best done in person to see how the person reacts: "May you reap what you sow". It's amazing, the number of people who take that as a "threat", when any logically inclined person would instantly know that only those who self-judge their own sowings' as something they wouldn't like done to them would perceive it that way. Conversely, the person who feels they sow good things, would see it as a blessing. It can be an interesting litmus test to get people to reveal the nature of their intentions. -l -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 26/12/2015 00:17, Michal Hrusecky a écrit :

What about not attacking people, behaving like an adult and not lying and if you really want, than pickup the right mail? Constant spreading of FUD across various mailing lists was one of the reasons for Carlos ban.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00439.html

is that true??? I fail to understand this! who can ask to ban somebody for this! Don't forget the translator work was extremely disturbed by a work chain change, the less we can say was done without enough thinking. I have seen much worst threads like right now one about Jesus that have little to do with openSUSE... but I won't ask to ban anybody for that. There are always solution to such conflicts, in a constructive manner. and don't forget we are on board renew period, so go to be candidate! jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 26/12/2015 10:14, Bruce Ferrell a écrit :

jdd, your "reminder" of upcoming elections strike me as an attempt to intimidate those making decisions or who would speak against you ( a pretty clumsy one at that )... And significantly less than constructive.

I fail to understand this sentence. I'm not in any way a board member nor an openSUSE leader, only an old user, both as age (70) that makes me feel I can't myself candidate, and by use of suse/openSUSE I began to use around 1996 (5.? SuSE). I feel the discussion got to a extend it shouldn't have. In collaborative groups, there are *always* ways to make things better and given the openSUSE calendar, it's the moment for people willing to have a word to come. I may have missed some mails, but right now my feeling is that there are not that number of candidates for the board. I add A. Wafaaa as "to" of this mail, just in case there is something wrong in what I say, he will be able to correct.

Yes, you're a volunteer. If you're unhappy with the directions the distro is going, may I suggest that you vote with your feet? I am. As I find time, my systems are moving away from Suse and OpenSUSE. The "bro-grammer" mentality that has come to infect what used to be a very sound distribution has become intolerable.

I sometime was (self)encouraged to do so, but openSUSE is so good as a distribution that I did not follow this momentum. I may not appreciate all the decisions made by the board or SUSE, but the result is dawn good and they have to be respected for this. right now I follow a debian list, just to see is there are here the same kind of problem (what rumor says - no community is immune) But just now, my idea to support Carlos is to say: we could ban ourselves from openSUSE until Carlos come back, that is do like him: answer privately, ask for help elsewhere until feb 15. If you agree or have other idea, say so, we could start jan 1st thanks jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Saturday 26 Dec 2015 01:14:45 Bruce Ferrell wrote:

On 12/26/2015 12:02 AM, jdd wrote:

...

Le 26/12/2015 00:17, Michal Hrusecky a écrit :

...

What about not attacking people, behaving like an adult and not lying and if you really want, than pickup the right mail? Constant spreading of FUD across various mailing lists was one of the reasons for Carlos ban.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-11/msg00439.html

is that true??? I fail to understand this!

who can ask to ban somebody for this!

Don't forget the translator work was extremely disturbed by a work chain change, the less we can say was done without enough thinking.

I have seen much worst threads like right now one about Jesus that have little to do with openSUSE... but I won't ask to ban anybody for that.

There are always solution to such conflicts, in a constructive manner.

and don't forget we are on board renew period, so go to be candidate!

Having been the recipient of Carlos "assistance" more than once, I'm going to weigh in here...

there are always 2 sides to a story. i've not seen anything to worry about in this list.

His banning, temporary or otherwise is good for the list and OpenSUSE.

most of us who have benefited from Carlos's input disagree. it seems like jobs' worth pettiness dressed up as something else

There isn't any single incident, but patterns, I'm sure that earned him his ban.

thats what i call holding a grudge. everybody has off-days when responding due to tiredness, had a few too many etc, why can't they just let it go?

jdd, your "reminder" of upcoming elections strike me as an attempt to intimidate those making decisions or who would speak against you ( a pretty clumsy one at that )... And significantly less than constructive.

Yes, you're a volunteer. If you're unhappy with the directions the distro is going, may I suggest that you vote with your feet? I am. As I find time, my systems are moving away from Suse and OpenSUSE. The "bro-grammer" mentality that has come to infect what used to be a very sound distribution has become intolerable.

just my two cents worth

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/26/2015 01:14 AM, Bruce Ferrell wrote:

jdd, your "reminder" of upcoming elections strike me as an attempt to intimidate those making decisions or who would speak against you ( a pretty clumsy one at that )... And significantly less than constructive.

And Bruce, your statement above strikes me as an attempt to drive a steak into the heart of the Opensuse Community, and make it nothing more than yet another a captured Microfocus product. Why have elections, if voting to remove disruptive candidates is somehow "intimidation"? Shame on you. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/26/2015 05:06 PM, Bruce Ferrell wrote:

On 12/26/2015 01:32 PM, John Andersen wrote:

...

On 12/26/2015 01:14 AM, Bruce Ferrell wrote:

...

jdd, your "reminder" of upcoming elections strike me as an attempt to intimidate those making decisions or who would speak against you ( a pretty clumsy one at that )... And significantly less than constructive. And Bruce, your statement above strikes me as an attempt to drive a steak into the heart of the Opensuse Community, and make it nothing more than yet another a captured Microfocus product.

Why have elections, if voting to remove disruptive candidates is somehow "intimidation"?

Shame on you.

John,

It has in fact become exactly what you fear... A chaotic, captured Microfocus zombie. Shambling along half dead, thrashing everything in it's path.

I agree with the removal of Carlos. I'd love to see it applied to all who don't seem able to cohere to SOME semblance of direction preferring anarchy. The concept of "those who do, decide" IS anarchy and it shows in the product.

I defy anyone to show up for any volunteer position outside of software and just decide to take actions, walk into a redcross office as a volunteer and start paining a wall, because you have the "itch"... I guarantee, you'll be, at best, simply removed.

personnel management isn't the issue. project management is. The shame is on you as a leader.

Bruce, this is incoherent First Citizen Methinks there is much reason in his sayings. Second Citizen If thou consider rightly of the matter, Caesar has had great wrong. Third Citizen Has he, masters? I fear there will a worse come in his place. Fourth Citizen Mark'd ye his words? He would not take the crown; Therefore 'tis certain he was not ambitious. First Citizen If it be found so, some will dear abide it. Second Citizen Poor soul! his eyes are red as fire with weeping. Third Citizen There's not a nobler man in Rome than Antony. Fourth Citizen Now mark him, he begins again to speak. !! -- So many immigrant groups have swept through our town that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998 http://www.mrbrklyn.com DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002 http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive http://www.coinhangout.com - coins! http://www.brooklyn-living.com Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org