onsdag 21 januari 2004 16:41 skrev Kenneth Schneider: Sorry for replying here, but I'm wondering if I'm the only one who can't read your messages. They always turn up blank. Is it my ISP who's filtering it for some reason? a.j.

* Arvid Johansson [01-21-04 12:44]:

onsdag 21 januari 2004 16:41 skrev Kenneth Schneider:

Sorry for replying here, but I'm wondering if I'm the only one who can't read your messages. They always turn up blank. Is it my ISP who's filtering it for some reason?

You must be. Have you tried looking at the mail file with a text editor? -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org

Kenneth Schneider wrote:

On Wed, 2004-01-21 at 08:59, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Hi,

Seeing those complains about people that CC to the list and to the original poster (so that we get double copies), and those that complain that replying to an email on the list result on emailing the original poster only, I'll paste here my procmail recipes.

Carlos,

This does nothing to educate the masses in how we would like this list maintained. It is a solution that you use but not everyone does or can, I know I do not have the ability at work as I use imap ant the server does not have the ability to sort and weed out dups.

The best approach is to educate the masses and try to be polite when asking somneone to NOT "reply to all" but only to the list as everyone on the list gets a copy of the email.

Or maybe fix the list, so that it works as a list should. I get the feeling that someone thought this was a "bright" idea and decided that everyone else should use it. It stinks.

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* James Knott [01-21-04 17:27]:

...

Or maybe fix the list, so that it works as a list should. I get the feeling that someone thought this was a "bright" idea and decided that everyone else should use it.

It stinks.

Your opinion is NOTED, but wrong. The list is a service to us provided and paid for by SuSE and they make the rules. Your participation is by YOUR choice. His Opiniion may be wrong but it is supported, at least by me and a 'few' others.

Asides since when have you pressed 'Reply to All' to reply to a message just so a list can get it and not the user who posted the comment? Remember 'Reply to ALL' means it replies to both the sender AND the list, whereas 'Reply' normally only goes to the original poster or list, if it is setup correctly. So the end point is either the 'Reply to all' folk put up with the extra message/download time/cost etc or the list moderators change the way the list operates so that members reply to the list just by clicking on the 'Reply' button. -- The Little Helper ======================================================================== Hylton Conacher - Licenced ex-Windows user (apart from Quicken) Registered Linux user # 229959 at http://counter.li.org Using SuSE 9.0 with KDE 3.1 ========================================================================

The Wednesday 2004-01-21 at 17:23 -0500, James Knott wrote:

Or maybe fix the list, so that it works as a list should. I get the feeling that someone thought this was a "bright" idea and decided that everyone else should use it.

You are mistaken: it is the other lists that do it wrong. Some others are changing it. :-p Proper mail programs don't have any problem with it. There are 3 hidden headers: |> list-help: mailto:suse-linux-e-help.... |> list-unsubscribe: list-post: mailto:suse-linux-e@suse.com With those instructions, software knows what to do when you hit "reply to list". And, for those programs that don't care about such things, I posted my recipes. How the list is configured is irrelevant, SuSE will not change it - so we'd better live with it :-) So, please let us don't start a flame war about that! -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

On Wednesday 21 January 2004 22:19 pm, James Knott wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

And, for those asking why the suse lists act this way, I'll simply answer that the should read again the confirmation email they got when they subscribed :-)

I read the FAQ and didn't see much of a reason to do things this way. As far as I'm concerned, it's aggravating.

I really wish you gripers would get a fscking life and understand that people need to be given the space to learn. This is a SUPPORT list - give people a hard time about something basically irrelevant like pedantic list protocol is only going to turn them away. Yes, let them know how they should behave, but don't take it to heart. If we want to encourage users to come over from the other side then we MUST be prepared to accept the transition problems. /me puts of flame suit Dylan -- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."                                   -Benjamin Franklin

On Wed, 2004-01-21 at 15:50, Jim Sabatke wrote:

Dylan wrote:

...

I really wish you gripers would get a fscking life and understand that people need to be given the space to learn. This is a SUPPORT list - give people a hard time about something basically irrelevant like pedantic list protocol is only going to turn them away. Yes, let them know how they should behave, but don't take it to heart.

If we want to encourage users to come over from the other side then we MUST be prepared to accept the transition problems.

/me puts of flame suit

Dylan

It really is a PITA. I just want to reply the the list 99 times out of 100, so I hit "reply," delete the OP's name, type in the list name, and then hit send. When I have forgotten to do that I've annoyed the OP. I've also typed in the wrong list name and annoyed other lists with SUSE stuff.

It is inconvenient.

-- Jim Sabatke

If we're taking votes on this, I agree with Jim. The list is set up to satisfy that one-in-a-hundred need to send a copy of the e-mail to the sender in addition to the list. The rest of the time, 99 times out of a hundred, you just want to reply to the list but, due to the way the list is configured, it is very easy to forget to redo the To: and Cc: lines and end up sending duplicates. Which gets you in trouble with the oldsters on the list. Ah, heck. This has all been discussed before and it doesn't look like it's going to change so we might as well just learn to live with it. Don Henson

On Wed January 21 2004 5:37 pm, Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

I used to use the "reply to all" mechanism and erase the poster's name, until I learned about the "reply to list" facility in Kmail. If you happen to be using Kmail (yes, I know not everyone is), the problem is easily solved. It would be useful if users of other email programs posted the method, where it exists, of replying to a list.

Paul Abrahams Thanks Paul. I use Kmail and didn't know I had that option. Rich -- Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter. -Martin Luther King-

C. Richard Matson

On Thursday 22 January 2004 8:26 am, Donald Henson wrote:

I've been using Evolution for about six months now and I didn't know it had a "reply-to-list" function, much less how to access it, until I read someone's note about right-clicking. Perhaps a short note about how to access "reply-to-list" in Evo (by right clicking) or Kmail (???) could save a lot of bandwidth. (I don't know how many people on this list use Evo or Kmail but I'd bet a large percentage use one or the other.) I know that some on this list would prefer to be arrogant and send snide remarks (no names, you know who you are) but it would seem more appropriate for a support list to try to help instead. Just my US$0.02 worth.

To be more specific about Kmail: you can get at the function with Message / Reply to List or, more simply, by typing L when the list messages are currently being viewed. To get it to work you have to right-click on the SuSE KDE folder (or whatever you called it) and indicate that it is indeed a mailing list and specify the list address. Oh, by the way: it's also very useful to set up a Kmail filter that sends all suse-linux-e messages to the folder you've set aside for the purpose. Paul Abrahams (who believes it's better to answer questions than complain about them)

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:50:58 -0600 Jim Sabatke wrote:

It is inconvenient.

It is not our fault that you chose to use an email program without a "reply to mailinglist" function. Charles -- The nice thing about Windows is - It does not just crash, it displays a dialog box and lets you press 'OK' first. (Arno Schaefer's .sig)

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:09:15 -0500 James Knott wrote:

Perhaps I'm wrong in this, but I got the impression that list was to disseminate info about SuSE.

Yes.

why make the more commonly used funtion the one that's less likely to come naturally to most users?

Read this: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

And no, many mail programs do not support reply to list.

Off the top of my head I can think of several: Sylpheed-claw, Sylpheed-main, Evolution, Mutt and I believe Pine has it too. Charles -- "On a normal ascii line, the only safe condition to detect is a 'BREAK' - everything else having been assigned functions by Gnu EMACS." (By Tarl Neustaedter)

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:52:55 -0500 James Knott wrote:

Accoring to that, they recommend using the reply to all function, which someone here was complaining about, due to receiving two copies.

Well before I was using a mailer with a "reply to list" function, I used "reply to all" and edit the address field- it is not that hard. Why don't you put in a feature request for Mozilla? A lot of Linux/Unix mailing lists are set up this way. Charles -- "However, complexity is not always the enemy." -- Larry Wall (Open Sources, 1999 O'Reilly and Associates)

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 19:06:31 -0600 Jim Sabatke wrote:

That kind of mindset frightens people away from any form of UNIX. There is a perception out there that if it's not convoluted and cumbersome, it's not UNIX.

Instead of blaming Unix for being convoluted, why don't you blame programs for not following standards and utilitize such feild as: |> list-help: mailto:suse-linux-e-help.... |> list-unsubscribe: list-post: mailto:suse-linux-e@suse.com as stated in RFC 2369: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2369.html This thread is beginning to remind me of OE users and pgp-mime (RFC 2015): http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2015.txt Charles -- Running Windows on a Pentium is like having a brand new Porsche but only be able to drive backwards with the handbrake on. (Unknown source)

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 03:13:28 +0100 (CET) "Carlos E. R." wrote:

You could instead use:

/usr/share/doc/rfc/rfc2369.txt.gz

which is local.

Yes I know, but not everyone have that package installed, I for one don't to save space. I generally use the rfc: shortcut in Konq. Charles -- "MSDOS didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- it took over ten years of careful development." (By dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca)

I can't believe the amount of posts this thing is getting. Get used to it. This is the way the list works. MANY lists work this way, not just UNIX/Linux lists. Get over it or move on. (what a bunch of whiners) I wish I had the time you guys waste on such petty issues. -- Until later, Geoffrey esoteric@3times25.net Building secure systems inspite of Microsoft

Charles Philip Chan wrote:

James Knott wrote:

...

why make the more commonly used funtion the one that's less likely to come naturally to most users?

Read this:

http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

Posting that without the rebuttal link is providing only half the story: http://www.metasystema.org/essays/reply-to-useful.mhtml -- "The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of governmental power." General Douglas MacArthur Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/

The Wednesday 2004-01-21 at 17:15 -0600, Jim Sabatke wrote:

Who said it's your fault? I just said it's inconvenient, which according to more than a couple posters, it is. BTW, I don't think most email clients have that function, though I have requested it in Mozilla/Thunderbird.

Precisely. That's why I posted a method to make _any_ email client behave themselves and post to the list instead. I never intended to start an argument about why or why not the list is configured this way... I only mentioned where it is explained (mainly, to avoid mail loops). -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

Hylton Conacher (ZR1HPC) wrote:

I haven't had a posting about Mozilla being able to handle 'Reply to list' because the list managers haven't set up the list correctly. Perhaps it is time those asking questions and really the 'students' of the moderators teach the moderators a thing or two?

Over 80% of the lists I'm on use the same reply approach. I really think we're wasting a lot of time on this one... -- Until later, Geoffrey Registered Linux User #108567 Building secure systems inspite of Microsoft

Charles Philip Chan wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:50:58 -0600 Jim Sabatke wrote:

...

It is inconvenient.

It is not our fault that you chose to use an email program without a "reply to mailinglist" function.

Charles Or I suppose that we are contributing to the open source community?

-- The Little Helper ======================================================================== Hylton Conacher - Licenced ex-Windows user (apart from Quicken) Registered Linux user # 229959 at http://counter.li.org Using SuSE 9.0 with KDE 3.1 ========================================================================

Ken Schneider wrote:

...

It really is a PITA. I just want to reply the the list 99 times out of 100, so I hit "reply," delete the OP's name, type in the list name, and then hit send. When I have forgotten to do that I've annoyed the OP. I've also typed in the wrong list name and annoyed other lists with SUSE stuff.

It is inconvenient.

Which is why there is the "reply to list" selection. With evolution all I have to do is right click in the message and select reply to list. How much of PITA is that?

Ken Schneider

But, who wants to change email clients whenever there is a function implemented in another one that might be useful? Actually, I gave Evolution a try and it crashed so often that I really couldn't use it, as well as leaving post-crash stuff running that I could never seem to find that wouldn't let Evolution restart. (yes, I do know how to use grep, ps and kill). Anyway, since almost everything posted here is to the list (I'm guessing, I haven't done a study), why not accomodate that simple idea? -- Jim Sabatke Hire Me!! - See my resume at http://my.execpc.com/~jsabatke Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

On Wednesday 21 January 2004 06:38 pm, James Knott wrote:

Dylan wrote:

...

I really wish you gripers would get a fscking life and understand that people need to be given the space to learn. This is a SUPPORT list - give people a hard time about something basically irrelevant like pedantic list protocol is only going to turn them away. Yes, let them know how they should behave, but don't take it to heart.

When I signed up for this list, I got the impression that while it was a support list, that due to a general lack of English lists, this one was also a sort of general discussion list too. Also, is it intended to be a private reply list, where only the original poster gets the answer? Or is it supposed to be a means of sharing info with others, so that the same question doesn't have to be asked repeatedly? If the first, by all means continue with the present method. However, if you want the solutions to be disseminated widely, then reply to the list should be automatic and not require extra steps.

As for mail programs, I use one I'm happy with. It does not have reply to list. Am I supposed to change mail programs, just for this one list that behaves in this manner? That's beginning to sound a lot like the MS way, where they tell you what you want. ==============

James, To help clarify things for you or others having difficulty with this list, I submit these facts. First, this is a support list, not a general discussion list, although many try to turn it into that. If you want general discussion, then there is a SuSE-OT (off topic) list which all should join that desire to chat about other things. There is a SuSE-KDE list for general KDE 3 discussions and help. They are not that busy, so nobody should get flooded with email from them. Second, the problem does not lie with the mail list, it seems more of a problem with those folks learning to use their mailers correctly. Almost all support settings to reply directly to the mail list easily, so it's a matter of you learning your preferred program. Simple as that. Don't feel like we are ganging up on you, we aren't, as many here, especially the newer folks haven't caught up either. I can instruct my dog to do things after a couple times teaching him, I'm hoping that most here are more intelligent than my dog! ;o) Lee -- --- KMail v1.6 --- SuSE Linux Pro v9.0 --- Registered Linux User #225206 On any other day, that might seem strange...

The Wednesday 2004-01-21 at 18:38 -0500, James Knott wrote:

As for mail programs, I use one I'm happy with. It does not have reply to list. Am I supposed to change mail programs, just for this one list that behaves in this manner?

That's why I posted a method for people whose program do not have the reply-to function. As simple as that...

That's beginning to sound a lot like the MS way, where they tell you what you want.

Not exactly. Any body that owns a server and sets up a maling list, is entitled to define how they make it work. Not you, not me, but they. And anyway, there are good reasons for it - for example, avoiding most mail loops. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

Dylan wrote:

On Wednesday 21 January 2004 22:19 pm, James Knott wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

And, for those asking why the suse lists act this way, I'll simply answer that the should read again the confirmation email they got when they subscribed :-)

I read the FAQ and didn't see much of a reason to do things this way. As far as I'm concerned, it's aggravating.

I really wish you gripers would get a fscking life and understand that people need to be given the space to learn. This is a SUPPORT list - give people a hard time about something basically irrelevant like pedantic list protocol is only going to turn them away. Yes, let them know how they should behave, but don't take it to heart.

If we want to encourage users to come over from the other side then we MUST be prepared to accept the transition problems.

/me puts of flame suit

Dylan

Dylan, I totally agree. As you say and w3e know this is a SUPPORT list and if we give people a hard time about about list protocol and what needs to be deleted and added, they are actually going to leave. Therefore to prevent them from being subjected to this list netiquette, let us all get on a single track and SUPPORT the move to having the list changed to a somewhat more user friendly, from a Windows person's perspective, list. -- The Little Helper ======================================================================== Hylton Conacher - Licenced ex-Windows user (apart from Quicken) Registered Linux user # 229959 at http://counter.li.org Using SuSE 9.0 with KDE 3.1 ========================================================================