Hi, On Sun, 14 May 2006, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

Aren't the sources directories on the mirrors enough?

/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/suse/src/ /pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/non-oss-inst-source/suse/src/

Do you really need them blowed into the ass?

I am very sorry for this. Excuse me please. To express it correctly, it should read "blown" into your ass. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Sat, 13 May 2006, BandiPat wrote:

On Saturday 13 May 2006 19:14, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

On Sun, 14 May 2006, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

...

Aren't the sources directories on the mirrors enough?

/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/suse/src/ /pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/non-oss-inst-source/suse/src/

Do you really need them blowed into the ass?

I am very sorry for this. Excuse me please. To express it correctly, it should read "blown" into your ass.

Well, no matter how you want to express yourself, it still sounds rude and it doesn't answer my questions, but I'll ask again to clarify. Will there be a sources DVD in the boxed package as in the past? Will there be a complete DVD iso of the sources to download if not, as it was with 10.0?

Of course there will not be an additional sources DVD within the box. It would be wasted material and manpower for 99% of the buyers. You HAVE GOT the sources in sense of the GPL, don't you? Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Sun, 14 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Sunday 2006-05-14 at 01:35 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

Of course there will not be an additional sources DVD within the box. It would be wasted material and manpower for 99% of the buyers.

You HAVE GOT the sources in sense of the GPL, don't you?

Quite a number of the people that buy the set do so because they don't have the network to download it. That has been my reason for many years.

The 10.0 box did not contain a sources CD or DVD. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Sun, 14 May 2006, BandiPat wrote:

On Sunday 14 May 2006 15:19, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

On Sun, 14 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

The Sunday 2006-05-14 at 01:35 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

...

...

Of course there will not be an additional sources DVD within the box. It would be wasted material and manpower for 99% of the buyers.

You HAVE GOT the sources in sense of the GPL, don't you?

Quite a number of the people that buy the set do so because they don't have the network to download it. That has been my reason for many years.

The 10.0 box did not contain a sources CD or DVD.

We were all aware of that Eberhard, since we all complained about that situation also. Many of us had hoped that would change after they got the bugs worked out of resale boxes. There are many that still desire a sources DVD to be included, but maybe SuSE didn't hear our cries. It sounds as if they may not have heard the pleas for a decent manual (Admin as before Novell) either.

The silent death of the admin guide was a bad decision in my mind too. Up to 9.3, I could advise interested people "just buy one SUSE box, and you have all you need to become a server admin - experiences with docs".

Also for 10.0, a sources DVD iso was provided on the mirrors, which for those of us with broadband didn't complain. Many don't have the bandwidth to download a large iso.

Many? You are kidding. Most of those "manies" at least have a friend with a DSL connection.

According to the GPL you want to mention, they, Novell/SuSE, have to make the sources available.

They already HAVE MADE them available. Before any box arrives...

I would hope it would come in the package we buy and if not, made available either by downloading or to purchase for the cost of the media directly from Novell/SUSE! This is not just the sources for the OpenSuse stuff, as you pointed out earlier, that's not everything that is on the purchased DVD.

The sources are published. God damn, see that!

Not asking for the impossible, just a bit of cooperation from Novell in getting our monies worth from the package we purchase.

The sources are already published at the servers: /pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/suse/src/ /pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/non-oss-inst-source/suse/src/ makesusedvd can be used to make an ISO out of it. Please nobody tell me he needs the sources but is not able to run makesusedvd. Putting the sources a second time there as an ISO image would neglect the mirror admins' interest in efficiency (space and cache). It is a totally different question if SUSE would ship hard media on request or not. I fully accept their "cost calculation" decision not to put a mostly never used sources disk into the box, and you should ask them for a hard copy if you can't use the servers. I bet they will ship one, and the SUSE cost calculators will include the needed manpower into their next revision. But I bet it already was the right decision. ;-)) Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

On 2006-05-15 01:07:40 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

If the 10.1 box doesn't have the admin book, I think I'm not buying it. I intended to, but if there is no book, I won't :-(

No sources, no book... what on earth do I get that I can't download myself?

there is a printed book in the box. darix -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org

On 2006-05-15 01:18:39 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

I bet you have never looked into it. ;-)) The contents of the formerly called "admin guide" are missing. No book, no more PDF. That is really bad. The PDF would be enough...

the admin guide is part of the suselinux-manual package. and the pdf is at suse/noarch/suselinux-manual_en-pdf-10.1-19.noarch.rpm. you will find it in the ftp tree. i think you have that somewhere. ;) hope that helps darix -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org

On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 01:12 +0200, Marcus Rueckert wrote:

On 2006-05-15 01:07:40 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

If the 10.1 box doesn't have the admin book, I think I'm not buying it. I intended to, but if there is no book, I won't :-(

No sources, no book... what on earth do I get that I can't download myself?

there is a printed book in the box.

I guess you have -not- been involved with SUSE for very long. There used to be -two- books one of which was an admin book which is no longer available. And now there is -no- pdf replacement. What a shame, a very good distro going to the dogs. I can just imagine what the bean counters were saying: "If we stop shipping the admin book and the sources DVD no one will notice and we can save $X.00 per box" Well many people have noticed and they also noticed the price drop as well. If Novell had kept the price the same and included the admin book and the sources DVD --many-- more people would be much happier and would be buying the distro instead of just downloading the distro. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

On 2006-05-14 19:41:17 -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:

I guess you have -not- been involved with SUSE for very long. There used to be -two- books one of which was an admin book which is no longer available. And now there is -no- pdf replacement. What a shame, a very good distro going to the dogs. I can just imagine what the bean counters were saying:

mind to see my email address? darix -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 07:05:19AM -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:

On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 03:00 +0200, Marcus Rueckert wrote:

...

On 2006-05-14 19:41:17 -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:

...

I guess you have -not- been involved with SUSE for very long. There used to be -two- books one of which was an admin book which is no longer available. And now there is -no- pdf replacement. What a shame, a very good distro going to the dogs. I can just imagine what the bean counters were saying:

mind to see my email address?

Your email address has nothing to do with it. You could have been hired last year.

Apologies, going to the dogs is a bit strong. The distro is not going to the dogs but some of the changes have not been for the better. I have used SuSE since the fall of 1998 and it has been better with each release. But some of the things that have made it so good (and why I choose it) are not good. The manuals -are- needed. Have you ever tried to research a problem on a server that will not boot when the only place for that research is the pdf manual that is on the server that will not boot?

ftp://ftp.opensuse.org/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/reference_en.pdf It is not on the CDs and DVDs, admittedly. Ciao, Marcus

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 02:04:45PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

If there is no admin book, I don't have any reason to buy the distro, that's how it is. I can not justify it, I don't have excuses anymore, sorry. A pity.

* Install support? I'm not a beginner, the problems I may have are not covered. * No network? Not anymore, download it. * Admin book? Nop.

Plonk the box.

I hope you tell this to your decision makers.

The decision makers knew that there would be a drop in sales. It was less then anticipated for 10.0. You not selling the box is not a real thread as the box is not a money maker for Novell. So no excuses are needed. ;-) houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

Hi, On Mon, 15 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2006-05-15 at 16:50 +0200, houghi wrote:

...

...

The decision makers knew that there would be a drop in sales. It was less then anticipated for 10.0. You not selling the box is not a real thread as the box is not a money maker for Novell.

So no excuses are needed. ;-)

But... what is the point in producing a box in a way that will have less sales? I must be dumb, I don't see it.

Reduce costs, for a so thought "not much profit" part. Already the 10.0 box looked like "made in China". Previous boxes had given a feeling of "made in Germany"... Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Tue, 16 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2006-05-15 at 23:49 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

...

But... what is the point in producing a box in a way that will have less sales? I must be dumb, I don't see it.

Reduce costs, for a so thought "not much profit" part.

But if they can make some profit of it, why don't do it? Then there is prestige. I will not be able to show the box to convince new linuxers...

They could sell it as a book with some software included ;-)

...

Already the 10.0 box looked like "made in China". Previous boxes had given a feeling of "made in Germany"...

True... I have a 6.1 version here, that makes 9.3 a poor brother...

I guess they have decided to make some distinct profit NOT. Must be a part of a higher strategy, and see what all they did lately. So the cheap box is ok with me. In Germany today, all the computer magazines add SUSE-10.1 DVDs for no additional cost. Linux-User tries to top them all: a special edition full of teaching articles, only SUSE-10.1. This is a much bigger scene than you ever can reach with a luxury box. I guess if the day has come that Novell is thinking "now the Linux desktop has the quality to reach the masses" they may return to "mod" the box up again. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2006-05-15 at 16:50 +0200, houghi wrote: ...

...

...

The decision makers knew that there would be a drop in sales. It was less then anticipated for 10.0. You not selling the box is not a real thread as the box is not a money maker for Novell.

So no excuses are needed. ;-)

But... what is the point in producing a box in a way that will have less sales? I must be dumb, I don't see it.

Market share. Spread SUSE Linux, grow the community, make money with SLES, SLED, ... cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEaPetr3NMWliFcXcRAlnCAJ47B+iue5XdXyH+z5Gwbljp8T/oqgCgsuyt Ry4rd7NRnCDwO5gYEamdmC0= =5DGR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Hi, On Tue, 16 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2006-05-15 at 23:50 +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

...

But... what is the point in producing a box in a way that will have less sales? I must be dumb, I don't see it.

Market share. Spread SUSE Linux, grow the community,

IMO, they would get more of that with the admin book included. More sales the better. This way, they will get mostly firstimers (repeaters will download) - and firstimers need manuals.

...

make money with SLES, SLED, ...

That would not be affected.

In my guess the current Novell Linux strategy is "the more publicity the better". And indeed they give away their good work for nothing currently, so there is only a small market for the box. But a huge spreading of the box content... Let's hope with them. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

On 5/16/06, Pascal Bleser wrote:

Right. I even think it's a good concept. Mostly because it is available as a free download (I guess), SUSE 10.0 has had a huge gain. At least the Packman download stats have tripled since 10.0 has been released.

The strategy is quite clear. Spread the good word with SUSE Linux, and the more successful it is, the easier for Novell to convince people that the sister product is ready for corporate desktop. I haven't understood the concern some have expressed here that SUSE Linux is is not making money from selling the box. If there is a missing admin guide of sufficient quality, now is the time to create an opensource version, don't buy the box and spend the money on getting it printed. SUSE Linux needs to compete with Windows which comes bundled with most people's machine (the cost is hidden). It needs to compete with other distros such as Ubuntu, which will ship you printed CDs for free, and provide 3 years of support on desktop and 5 years on the server (with no registration :-). Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 06:11:19AM +0200, jdd wrote:

Peter Flodin wrote:

...

SUSE Linux needs to compete with Windows which comes bundled with most people's machine (the cost is hidden).

tha windows admin book is wonderfull, isn't it?

Nice one. :-) houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Peter Flodin wrote:

On 5/16/06, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

Right. I even think it's a good concept. Mostly because it is available as a free download (I guess), SUSE 10.0 has had a huge gain. At least the Packman download stats have tripled since 10.0 has been released.

The strategy is quite clear. Spread the good word with SUSE Linux, and the more successful it is, the easier for Novell to convince people that the sister product is ready for corporate desktop.

Exactly.

I haven't understood the concern some have expressed here that SUSE Linux is is not making money from selling the box.

I'm sure there are still quite a few people who buy the box. Also, the price of the retail box has dropped (by having a box of a lesser quality and also by dropping the large book from it), from 80-90 EUR to 60 EUR. What could be interesting is to know how many people who bought the box before now only download the ISOs from the internet. Personally, I don't, I bought every single retail box since 5.0 and will continue to do so.

If there is a missing admin guide of sufficient quality, now is the time to create an opensource version, don't buy the box and spend the money on getting it printed.

AFAIK it is accessible for contributors, and it's available on the internet repo anyway (it's not on the CDs for 10.1, unfortunately (?)).

SUSE Linux needs to compete with Windows which comes bundled with most people's machine (the cost is hidden). It needs to compete with other

Yeah, that's a tough one. Needs to have the big vendors involved, Dell, HP, ... Hopefully things will get moving in that area. But I think we should rather try to make the best Linux distribution and the best community around it. As far as competing with Windows, that's Novell's problem (not that it's success doesn't have influence on us, though).

distros such as Ubuntu, which will ship you printed CDs for free, and provide 3 years of support on desktop and 5 years on the server (with no registration :-).

Yes and no. Ubuntu still fails to have a viable model, it only works because Shuttleworth is putting a few millions of $ into the community every year, without anything in return. I guess that one day (and probably not too far away from now), Canonical will have to put up some business model of some kind, whatever that will be. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEaWNgr3NMWliFcXcRAoq4AKCvuJ2T0861W6TnORZXBv+j5CoxVACgqits zZzASUaVlZ0h88ECyvRsLRE= =3exx -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Hi, On Tue, 16 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 00:34 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

In my guess the current Novell Linux strategy is "the more publicity the better". And indeed they give away their good work for nothing currently, so there is only a small market for the box. But a huge spreading of the box content...

Well... perhaps. But they could sell instead the book. Even a book with a DVD, or with a magazine that includes the DVD :-p

Novell's home is USA. So I understand the strategy is to "home" SUSE Linux there too now. There seem to be totally different market situations for SUSE Linux in Germany/Europe and USA. In Germany, meanwhile it is a must for every Linux paper to include a SUSE-10.1 DVD. In USA, it seems one has to pay like for adverising for inclusion of SUSE-10.1 DVDs into magazines. So the "Linux scene newspaper publicity" is a good next goal over there. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 07:23 +0200, houghi wrote:

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 01:38:57AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Well... perhaps. But they could sell instead the book. Even a book with a DVD, or with a magazine that includes the DVD :-p

There are plenty of books you can buy. Some of them are also with SUSE CD.

Probably. Then, why not the one made by SuSE? - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEaafCtTMYHG2NR9URAuyiAKCSFSvS6A57wCgqu0Hrlmj7hPAVPgCfRC1I BJ2BansGsXGnlbYig6y6JEc= =0GAq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 12:45 +0200, houghi wrote:

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Probably. Then, why not the one made by SuSE?

1) Because SuSE does not exist anymore. It is SUSE

I don't care :-P

7) Because they sold more Upgrades then Full versions and guessed it was because of price

The upgrade contained precisely the admin book.

8) Because they want to encourage others to write books

They already wrote and translated it.

Don't forget to include a DVD and perhaps even MPlayer and libdvdcss and other multimedia things.

You know that is not possible. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEabuHtTMYHG2NR9URAgnHAJ0Wvyr9qhdFlXJsqaied14e6bWM2wCeJqw1 3xvB3vV1+hnVdbPw38wdz6M= =XEE4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 14:49 +0200, jdd wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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...

Don't forget to include a DVD and perhaps even MPlayer and libdvdcss and other multimedia things.

You know that is not possible.

with a book it migh be possible (sufffice to buy the rights :-)

Of libdvdcss? No way... you might get away publishing the source as an educational or investigation exercise, but if you want to sell such a dvd, youd' be in trouble. Depends on the country, but if you intend to sell internationally, you are in deeper trouble. If it weren't so, Novell would be distributing it.

I didn't read neither the licence of suse books. are they print free?

For personal use, I'm sure they are. The 9.3 edition I have in my lap says "this publication is the intellectual property of Novell Inc". "Its content's can be duplicated, either in part or in whole, provided that a copyright label is visibly located on each copy."

I remember, a very long time ago, I bough a PC computer with manuals where the make was blanked with desktop blanco (and some place they forgotten an "ibm" :-)

Tsk, bad boys... At a company I worked for, we scratched the labeling off chips with an electric drill. That way they could charge a hugish amount for a board with an opamp and a three nand gates at most... - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEaeYetTMYHG2NR9URAqTVAJ47sbH35FSyJHN5wLLethcNPHSxNwCgkCSN edXUeOraSgTfkRz18S2zR1U= =vG0O -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 18:35 +0200, houghi wrote:

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 04:47:53PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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...

I didn't read neither the licence of suse books. are they print free?

For personal use, I'm sure they are. The 9.3 edition I have in my lap says "this publication is the intellectual property of Novell Inc". "Its content's can be duplicated, either in part or in whole, provided that a copyright label is visibly located on each copy."

How interested are you all in this subject if you can't even bother to look it up?

You think I didn't? I did, in fact... the admin book of 9.3 (the last one that was printed) has what I copied above, as I said. And the reference book (which is the admin book nowdays) of 10.1 has the same notice. Don't blame people so easily :-/ - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEamq4tTMYHG2NR9URAkqRAJ9pc+9+shZ5GBX31MTHa9mLrP3o8QCfVZxj F/SSOTm1J2WmuobP1olTh9U= =FrLc -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Wednesday 17 May 2006 00:12, houghi wrote:

I can go only by what you tell me. If you tel me you only looked at the 9.3 and not at the 10.0 and/or 10.1 then I can only asume you did not look there. Why would you not tell it if you looked there?

Houghi, with all due respect this bickering is unbecoming and boring. Please stop. Carl

On Wednesday 17 May 2006 00:37, houghi wrote:

On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 12:26:46AM -0400, Carl Hartung wrote:

...

Houghi, with all due respect this bickering is unbecoming and boring. Please stop.

So now I am the bad guy?

No, of course not. Don't be defensive. I'm just asking you to refrain from parsing other people's language too finely on this very public list and provoking/engaging in protracted, meaningless debates. Carl

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 14:58 +0200, houghi wrote:

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1) Because SuSE does not exist anymore. It is SUSE

I don't care :-P

So even though you don't care about their wishes to be called SUSE, because that is what they are called, they should care about your wishes>

Didn't you see the smiley? :-PPP By the way, at least one of the installation screens of RC1..3 included the SuSE logo. I will not say which, of course. :-P

...

...

7) Because they sold more Upgrades then Full versions and guessed it was because of price

The upgrade contained precisely the admin book.

Read the part after the and.

I did, and? It doesn't alter what I said.

...

...

Don't forget to include a DVD and perhaps even MPlayer and libdvdcss and other multimedia things.

You know that is not possible.

It might be in the country where you live in. Or perhaps you are a licence holder. I know I put it in when I burn my DVD and give it to somebody.

Read again: you know it is not possible to include libdvdcss in a dvd (not legally, at least, and guaranteed to be legal). If you don't, you should. An unfortunate fact. Ask Novell... - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEaeK+tTMYHG2NR9URAsiBAJ41/KFrdF4ORagijztvavesc/YQ9QCgiS9j 7kf4oFLcxB2M/6FhJp8EYS4= =WMfl -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 04:59:45PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

By the way, at least one of the installation screens of RC1..3 included the SuSE logo. I will not say which, of course. :-P

Ejem!

./CD1/suse/i586/i4l-base-2006.2.28-8.i586.rpm: -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 22075 Mar 14 2005 /sbin/conf.d/SuSEconfig.isdn

;-)

And your point is? That is a filename. And looking at the filename, its development started when the name of the company was still SuSE. Now the product is called SUSE. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 18:39 +0200, houghi wrote:

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 04:33:32PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

By the way, at least one of the installation screens of RC1..3 included the SuSE logo. I will not say which, of course. :-P

If I see something like that, I file a bugreport.

But I don't :-P

...

...

...

...

7) Because they sold more Upgrades then Full versions and guessed it was because of price

The upgrade contained precisely the admin book.

Read the part after the and.

I did, and? It doesn't alter what I said.

It does not alter what you said. However what you said makes no sence. You could also have said that the DVD was silver.

Perhaps you and I don't speak the same English...

...

...

It might be in the country where you live in. Or perhaps you are a licence holder. I know I put it in when I burn my DVD and give it to somebody.

Read again: you know it is not possible to include libdvdcss in a dvd (not legally, at least, and guaranteed to be legal). If you don't, you should. An unfortunate fact. Ask Novell...

I believe there are countries where the use of libdvdcss is legal.

And in some it isn't. I don't even know if it is in mine, I'm not a lawyer and I'm not going to risk it. Some people say it is, some say it isn't... In any case, if you distribute such a dvd internationally, you could be in trouble. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEamyptTMYHG2NR9URAlibAJ4m56xDYH3vJmGN1PZnX3RkQroGDACfdwJc 0nSzPxpEs33HwS8VhCSltSQ= =4c4Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Carlos E. R. wrote:

IMO, they would get more of that with the admin book included. More sales the better. This way, they will get mostly firstimers (repeaters will download) - and firstimers need manuals.

and the admin book could be in english. translation cost are very high (and they need print cost also) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 12:30:07PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

So the translation cost has been invested already... why not sell the book and try make some money out of it?

Because it is not worth the trouble. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 01:29:09PM +0200, jdd wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Almost the same books you see in ...inst-source/docu/en, are translated to several languages. I don't know which is now the "admin" book, it might be the "reference_en.pdf", and it is translated to Spanish and French, at least. So the translation cost has been invested already... why not sell the book and try make some money out of it?

* I didn't verify if the books are uptodate

They are. Ciao, Marcus

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 07:17 +0200, houghi wrote:

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 12:13:52AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

Market share. Spread SUSE Linux, grow the community,

IMO, they would get more of that with the admin book included. More sales the better. This way, they will get mostly firstimers (repeaters will download) - and firstimers need manuals.

In the opinion of the number of downloads, you are incorrect. Wait, that is not an opinion, that is a fact. ;-)

No, sorry, it is not. If SuSE/Novell sold boxes, some with admin book, some without, we could compare. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEaao2tTMYHG2NR9URAv4iAJ0U2JePitFkY6h7gcsSzlO/OI0JFgCeIHdV TLbI3CPdV0tqPQ2+9ymetUg= =nP5/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 06:33:11AM -0600, Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 07:05:19AM -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:

...

On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 03:00 +0200, Marcus Rueckert wrote:

...

On 2006-05-14 19:41:17 -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:

...

I guess you have -not- been involved with SUSE for very long. There used to be -two- books one of which was an admin book which is no longer available. And now there is -no- pdf replacement. What a shame, a very good distro going to the dogs. I can just imagine what the bean counters were saying: mind to see my email address? Your email address has nothing to do with it. You could have been hired last year.

ftp://ftp.opensuse.org/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/reference_en.pdf

It is not on the CDs and DVDs, admittedly.

I get this while trying to retrieve it.

Making FTP connection to ftp.opensuse.org Can't Access `ftp://ftp.opensuse.org/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/reference_en.pdf' Alert!: Unable to access document.

Better use this one ( checked this time ;). http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/refere... Ciao, Marcus

Hi, On Mon, 15 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2006-05-15 at 00:39 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

On Sun, 14 May 2006, BandiPat wrote: ...

...

...

We were all aware of that Eberhard, since we all complained about that situation also. Many of us had hoped that would change after they got the bugs worked out of resale boxes. There are many that still desire a sources DVD to be included, but maybe SuSE didn't hear our cries. It sounds as if they may not have heard the pleas for a decent manual (Admin as before Novell) either.

The silent death of the admin guide was a bad decision in my mind too.

Up to 9.3, I could advise interested people "just buy one SUSE box, and you have all you need to become a server admin - experiences with docs".

If the 10.1 box doesn't have the admin book, I think I'm not buying it. I intended to, but if there is no book, I won't :-(

No sources, no book... what on earth do I get that I can't download myself?

...

...

Also for 10.0, a sources DVD iso was provided on the mirrors, which for those of us with broadband didn't complain. Many don't have the bandwidth to download a large iso.

Many? You are kidding. Most of those "manies" at least have a friend with a DSL connection.

Where? I have none of those friends. As a matter of fact, now that I do have ADSL, a friend of mine makes 200 Km to get the software I download for him...

Not everybody lives in the internet era. Not everybody is so lucky.

So tell your non-ADSL friends that part of my posting that you didn't quote here. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Mon, 15 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2006-05-15 at 01:14 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

So tell your non-ADSL friends that part of my posting that you didn't quote here.

meaning?

Just to ask SUSE for a hard medium. But you better would have read my posting again. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

BandiPat wrote:

We were all aware of that Eberhard, since we all complained about that situation also. Many of us had hoped that would change after they got the bugs worked out of resale boxes. There are many that still desire a sources DVD to be included, but maybe SuSE didn't hear our cries.

I'm curious - I rarely use any of the sources, except maybe the SUSE-kernel. Why is it important to have all of them shipped with the boxed product?

Also for 10.0, a sources DVD iso was provided on the mirrors, which for those of us with broadband didn't complain. Many don't have the bandwidth to download a large iso.

That's partially what bittorrent is there for.

According to the GPL you want to mention, they, Novell/SuSE, have to make the sources available. I would hope it would come in the package we buy and if not, made available either by downloading

I thought they did do so too. I'm just now retrieving the inst-source tree from a mirror. /Per Jessen, Zürich

houghi wrote:

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 10:25:56AM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

Many don't have the bandwidth to download a large iso.

That's partially what bittorrent is there for.

Uhm, no. Say I have a 28.8K modem connection. Wether I download with FTP or Torrent would hardly make a difference.

Hmm, true. I guess there's not much one can do to help someone with that kind of connection - and for the majority of the SUSE-market, it is surely a rare exception too? /Per Jessen, Zürich

houghi wrote:

In numbers, the amount of people who have dialup is prety large.

In absolute numbers yes, but in relative, I wonder if not most people have or are moving to ADSL? Many countries have 95% or better coverage, and the cost is now _almost_ negligible. (the cheapest here is CHF9/month plus CHF2.40/hour).

I hope we don't go the way some websites think: but 90% uses IE, so we don't chane it. ;-)

Yeah ... though I'm not sure it makes much commercial sense to produce a source DVD for the probably very few that 1) have a need and 2) are still on e.g. 28.8K analog dial-up.

As it is just for those who can not download large files, putting it on the DVD-9 is enough. No reason to put it on a downloadable ISO as that would beat the purpose.

For download, I think it makes perfect sense to keep both an ISO and the individual files. /Per Jessen, Zürich

Per Jessen wrote:

houghi wrote:

...

In numbers, the amount of people who have dialup is prety large.

In absolute numbers yes, but in relative

don't think only for your country. do you think adsl is so spread in china or india? not to speak about africa... but AFAIK the source dvd is available by mail and this could be sufficient may be Novell could send a small quantity of such dvd to the dealers (say, one for ten boxes) to make them available immédiatly. the cost could be small jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 02:47:50PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

I'm not. I am thinking for instance France, Britain, Scandinavia, Switzerland, Belgium etc. I think it's a pretty safe bet that ADSL is available to perhaps 95% of people in Northern/Central Europe.

That is a bet you are going to loose. For Belgium it is about 75% and Belgium is one of the highest in the world. Availablity is not the same as people actually using it.

...

do you think adsl is so spread in china or india? not to speak about africa...

Although those countries are populationwise much bigger than e.g. just Europe, and the ADSL coverage is undoubtedly small, I doubt if they are significant Novell markets.

So then they are expansion markets. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

Per Jessen wrote:

houghi wrote:

...

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 02:47:50PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

I'm not. I am thinking for instance France, Britain, Scandinavia, Switzerland, Belgium etc. I think it's a pretty safe bet that ADSL is available to perhaps 95% of people in Northern/Central Europe.

That is a bet you are going to loose. For Belgium it is about 75% and Belgium is one of the highest in the world. Availablity is not the same as people actually using it.

Belgium's 75% availability is pretty low - even the UK reached 90% about two years ago. I did say "available to", _not_ "in use by".

France is far from this. I have many friends with phone modem or ISDN. but the discussion is worthless. what is interesting, is solutions. I see many: * as I said, send 1 source dvd for 10 boxes to dealers or at least brokers. cheap and at hand for the user. * ask dealers to download the source dvd for a small fee * direct users to the LUGs, most have power users that can make disks for friends (solution most used here) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

Hi, On Mon, 15 May 2006, houghi wrote:

The main exception is perhaps the kernel source. Put the in the boxed set and people with slow downloads already have that biggest part that they might need. People who are willing to download the ISO, also are able to download the files as is.

The kernel sources ARE part of the box DVDs. I bet even the CDs. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 18:19 +0200, houghi wrote:

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 03:54:01PM +0200, jdd wrote:

...

* as I said, send 1 source dvd for 10 boxes to dealers or at least brokers. cheap and at hand for the user.

1 in 10? Also these then need to be sold and thus packaged and so on. Either you include them, or you don't. Just having then lying around people would walk in and use them as coasters.

...

* ask dealers to download the source dvd for a small fee

That you can always do. Wether they are willing to do so is another matter. Also many people irder online.

...

* direct users to the LUGs, most have power users that can make disks for friends (solution most used here)

Not realy an option for many people. Best way is to have a friend download it for you.

Still leaves the question if there should be an ISO with sources at all. I don't believe so. Some might use one or a few sourcescodes from selected programs, but not enough to warrant a full source ISO download.

The main exception is perhaps the kernel source. Put the in the boxed set and people with slow downloads already have that biggest part that they might need. People who are willing to download the ISO, also are able to download the files as is. The kernel sources used to compile the kernel is included even in the 5 iso set. I install it as routine because of VMware.

-- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

jdd wrote:

...

Belgium's 75% availability is pretty low - even the UK reached 90% about two years ago. I did say "available to", _not_ "in use by".

France is far from this. I have many friends with phone modem or ISDN.

Actually, according to the OECD (2005), the ADSL penetration (#ADSL subscribers per 100 inhabitants) in France is 11.9 vs. e.g. 11 in Belgium. The top5 in total broadband penetration was Korea, Netherlands, Denmark, Iceland and Switzerland, but they were only a couple of percent higher. /Per Jessen, Zürich

houghi wrote:

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 06:46:20PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Actually, according to the OECD (2005), the ADSL penetration (#ADSL subscribers per 100 inhabitants) in France is 11.9 vs. e.g. 11 in Belgium. The top5 in total broadband penetration was Korea, Netherlands, Denmark, Iceland and Switzerland, but they were only a couple of percent higher.

Do you have a URL for this?

Yep, sorry, I shold have added it: http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,2340,en_2649_34225_35526608_1_1_1_1,00.htm... This one is quite useful too: http://www.google.ch/search?hl=de&q=oecd+broadband&btnG=Google-Suche&meta= /Per Jessen, Zürich

houghi wrote:

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 07:06:46PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Yep, sorry, I shold have added it:

http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,2340,en_2649_34225_35526608_1_1_1_1,00.htm...

Unfortunatly no comparison to how many dialup users there are. Also no comparison to actual connected people. So for me that makes the data only mildly inderesting.

Oh I agree.

This data in itself means nothing in reality. :-(

Of course - the OECD does not make any other representation about it. But I'm sure you can find the rest of the data if you spend enough time looking for it.

e.g. What if Belgium has twice as much dialup connections? Or any or all of these countries?

Only the relative numbers are really interesting. Germany probably has 10 times more dial-up users than Andorra, but it's irrelevant. /Per Jessen, Zürich

Per Jessen schrieb:

Only the relative numbers are really interesting. Germany probably has 10 times more dial-up users than Andorra, but it's irrelevant.

As in Germany a lot of users are attached via OPAL (optical) instead of POT (copper), they can't get DSL. And as the Telekom decided, that attaching every household with OPAL equipment is too expensive, a lot of persons have just no opportunity to get broadband, despite having modern cabling. So dial-up is still an issue there, which should be considered. Ciao Siegbert

On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 19:06 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

houghi wrote:

...

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 06:46:20PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Actually, according to the OECD (2005), the ADSL penetration (#ADSL subscribers per 100 inhabitants) in France is 11.9 vs. e.g. 11 in Belgium. The top5 in total broadband penetration was Korea, Netherlands, Denmark, Iceland and Switzerland, but they were only a couple of percent higher.

Do you have a URL for this?

Yep, sorry, I shold have added it:

http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,2340,en_2649_34225_35526608_1_1_1_1,00.htm...

Now, that's a perfect example of statistics that can be easily misinterpreted...! These numbers tell you how the different countries compare with regards to the uptake of broadband. Useful for comparison between countries. But it doesn't say anything about how many people have broadband access. Most broadband connections serve an entire household, which often consists of more than one person. BTW: The link above is for June 05 figures. The figures of Dec 05 are here: http://www.oecd.org/document/39/0,2340,en_2649_34225_36459431_1_1_1_1,00.htm... which makes even more interesting reading when comparing these two sets of figures.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2006-05-15 at 11:59 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

houghi wrote:

...

In numbers, the amount of people who have dialup is prety large.

In absolute numbers yes, but in relative, I wonder if not most people have or are moving to ADSL? Many countries have 95% or better coverage, and the cost is now _almost_ negligible. (the cheapest here is CHF9/month plus CHF2.40/hour).

That "many" countries means the first world only, and then only cities in my part of the first world. They are thinking some kind of radio link instead. My adsl is about 35 Eur/month (still waiting to know the real figure). Dialup can depend, but it can be either ~1.6 cents/per minute, or a night flat rate about 20..30 Eur/month, plus the phone line. That's certainly not negligible here with our salaries. Cable is not viable, they say, although it lies 30 meters from my door. - -- Cheers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEaGzztTMYHG2NR9URAn77AJ42aWfjdBgqUSpFwUJxeA6wqmyQIQCeM46F F1h1nn2zTrha6wbt5msrIMU= =MxOI -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2006-05-15 at 14:11 +0200, Clayton wrote:

In Canada, my friend's & family are lucky to get 512Kbit (if it's even available) - a couple are on 1Mbit connections... they live in the city.... a couple others only have 56k dialup (not even ISDN works where they live)... but either way, downloading ISOs is a major undertaking, and BitTorrent is either barely tolerated, or simply won't work at all (in the case of my parent's satellite internet connection... latency is way too high for BitTorrent to work).

My ADSL is 1 Mbit also, in a city in Spain. 20 Mbit is announced, but the small print says something about "ask for availability..." meaning it is only available in selected parts of the main capitals. And it is not a maintained speed (ie, it is a maximum). And cable is not universal here, my house is not "viable". Smaller cities, villages, countryside? Forget it. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEaHQLtTMYHG2NR9URApMiAJ4s3qAPcSNyNYCZbpcgqwGILMepaACdEBKH 8+yW9ZgHHln2nzhQpHJ9Noo= =vnLA -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2006-05-15 at 14:40 +0200, Per Jessen wrote: ...

...

Cable is not viable, they say, although it lies 30 meters from my door.

You'd probably have to pay for them digging in the cable - that's what usually happens around here.

I was told by a friend in the business they can't, and even more, they can't deny service. But they give a thousand excuses and delays till the client tires... the truth is they are not interested in low rise areas, they want flats and businesses: few infrastructures, high volume traffic, high return ratio. That's what the liberalization of telecommunications means. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEaImCtTMYHG2NR9URAjEcAJ9oDyUmCamHKeCGqJ1PPon9wy44agCdGwXe Bw0dgRKmXqEwYRk2mP4fYrs= =x/YH -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----