Tony Alfrey said the following on 11/01/2011 10:35 AM:

Linux Tyro wrote:

...

... But what I wanted to know like:

how Linux (in fact, 'openSUSE' works), what is directory structure and how it is working, how various tasks are handles in Linux, etc...etc... but from the scratch level.

http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596007607.do

There are many books in my local library on Linux; they may be out of date in many details with respect to specific and recent distributions, but they would certainly cover the basics of which you speak. Check out your local library. -- Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read. Frank Zappa, quoted in Linda Botts, "Loose Talk" (1980) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Linux Tyro <opensuse.bkn1@gmail.com> wrote:

http://rute.2038bug.com/node4.html.gz#SECTION00470000000000000000

Just want to know if all things work here as well in openSUSE.

I meant this book is for Redhat and Debain only or for use in openSUSE too, confused a little, please elaborate. -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:

openSUSE is much like RedHat in that both use the basic RPM package management (underneath the friendlier Yum and Yumex overlays, which roughly correspond to Zypper and YaST2) and similar (1,2,3,5) runlevels. Debian runs on only two runlevels, and basic deb packaging (underneath the friendlier apt & aptitude overlays). These elementary similarities and differences have little to no impact to most users, but can confuse those trying to learn how the underpinnings and command line tools work. Keep this in mind when books talk about similarities and differences between RedHat & Debian, and remember to focus on the RedHat discussion. For most purposes books about RedHat have applied to openSUSE, but note that RedHat is a commercial distribution with a free counterpart called Fedora, similar in concept to openSUSE's relationship to commercial counterparts SLED & SLES.

Oh well, it means basically there are two types of linux - 1) rpm 2) deb and I am going for 1) rpm. NOW in this rpm man distros come like openSUSE, fedora, etc.. and in deb other distros come like ubuntu, debian, etc.. , is it like this? -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/2/2011 6:23 AM, Linux Tyro wrote:

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Felix Miata<mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:

...

openSUSE is much like RedHat in that both use the basic RPM package management (underneath the friendlier Yum and Yumex overlays, which roughly correspond to Zypper and YaST2) and similar (1,2,3,5) runlevels. Debian runs on only two runlevels, and basic deb packaging (underneath the friendlier apt& aptitude overlays). These elementary similarities and differences have little to no impact to most users, but can confuse those trying to learn how the underpinnings and command line tools work. Keep this in mind when books talk about similarities and differences between RedHat& Debian, and remember to focus on the RedHat discussion. For most purposes books about RedHat have applied to openSUSE, but note that RedHat is a commercial distribution with a free counterpart called Fedora, similar in concept to openSUSE's relationship to commercial counterparts SLED& SLES.

Oh well, it means basically there are two types of linux - 1) rpm 2) deb and I am going for 1) rpm. NOW in this rpm man distros come like openSUSE, fedora, etc.. and in deb other distros come like ubuntu, debian, etc.. , is it like this?

Not really. rpm and deb are merely packaged software management systems. There are many ways to manage software installation and removal, and these two are by far the most common, but by no means the only ways. They are only the most common because debian and redhat, and their spin-offs like centos and ubuntu, happen to be the most popular linux distributions currently. Technically .apk is probably the most popular linux software package fomat since there are probably more Android devices in use than linux desktops even though redhat and debian have been around a lot longer. Package management is a detail. Don't get too hung up on details at this point. There are not two types of linux. Depending on how you want look at it, or how you want to categorize, there is either only one linux, or there are an uncountable number of linux's. It's not like Windows. There is no overall system written by any one entity or group. There is this big bag of software parts all written by different people, and most of it has nothing to do with the rest of it other than it's all written to be compatible and work according to a common set of general principles, loosely defined as UNIX, and/or POSIX, and/or in the case of Linux specifically, the LSB (linux standard base). Much of the sofware in a linux system is not even written specifically for linux, but is written for any unix/posix compatible system, which includes freebsd, opensolaris, and a host of commercial unixes like sco, sun, hp, ibm. Systems like redhat, debian, ubuntu, suse, etc... these are called "distributions" not "linux" because that's what they are. They take all the various components of a typical unix-like system and assemble them into a coherent system. This is a significant and complex job and it's why distributions even exist. They have to pick which components to include, and then customize or configure them to fit into an overall system to work with other components. For example, one common component of any unix-like system is "getty" this is a basic program that opens up a tty (a serial port or a console generally) and prints the login prompt and waits for logins, and hands off the tty to /bin/login or some other login authentication method and ultimately to a shell instance (command prompt, ie /bin/sh or /bin/bash). There are several different getty programs written by different people over the years with different features and details, although they all do roughly the same basic job. Maybe one has special support for detecting incoming faxes or PPP connections on modems, maybe one has support for full-screen color menu/dialog "pretty" login prompts, maybe one is stripped of everything except the absolute minimum required to use the vga console only so it's fast/lighter/smaller, etc. A distribution evaluates many of the possible getty programs, picks one based on whatever that distributions guiding principles are, then configures or customizes it as necessary to fit in with the rest of that distribution. For example, Typically getty's used to be configured by a file called /etc/gettytab and/or a file called /etc/inittab. /etc/inittab is really a config file for /bin/init, which is the fist program that is run at boot up, and it starts everything else, and is responsible for watching and restarting certain things if/when they are killed. This includes, all the getty's on all the tty's. But some systems do not have a standard /sbin/init anymore. There are now starting to be alternatives like upstart and systemd that do the job init used to do, but do it in somewhat different ways. (Choosing what style of init to use is yet another of the many things a distribution does.) So, for instance, the next version of opensuse, or possibly the one after that, it's still a bit too early to be sure, will be using systemd instead of init. But the author of mingetty (the minimal getty for use on the local consoles only) may or may not have written any special systemd support into his getty app. For example the Makefile for compiling and installing the app, and the documentation, may just assume that the app will be started from /etc/inittab and that's it. Suse will have to slightly alter _their_ mingetty package so that it includes a systemd service script instead of one or more lines in /etc/inittab, and possibly alter the man-page to reflect that also. And, related, if the systemd package happens to include a default service start script for some other standard getty, suse may have to alter that a little to use mingetty. These are all _details_ that are different for every distribution. They do not make the different distributions into different types of linux. Every distribution has it's own unique pile of these details that makes it different from every other linux. And yet, there are certain principles that are the same on just about every linux. Almost every distribution has the same major _features_ such as * some version of linux kernel * some sort of libc * some sort of init * some sort of getty * some sort of ssh server * some sort of shell * some sort of package management system The ssh serevr is usually OpenSSH, but does not have to be. There are others and some special purpose distributions use them instead. For instance you might use Dropbear on a WebOS device or a linksys router running OpenWRT. The libc is usually gnu libc, but there are others. You would probably use uclibc on an embedded device or router. You might use a commercial libc with distributed computing support or support for using gpu's or other special vector processors on a big cluster. The package management system might be deb or rpm, or as in the case of gentoo, most software might be managed similar to the freebsd ports system where a package is just a set of compile and install instructions and everything is compiled-to-order on your own machine right when you install it. So again. Try not to get too focused on any details yet if this is all new to you. Go ahead and read distribution-specific books and articles if you don't happen to find any really good generic ones, but _at first_ don't worry too much about actual details like program names and file locations and command line arguments. All that stuff is subject to change from one distribution to another, and also changes all the time from one version(*) to the next. For the purpose of getting started, pick really any distribution, and read documentation that IS specific to that distribution, and see how things work and get familiar. You do have to start somewhere. If you're not going to take a class where a professor will describe general principles abstractly, then you have to learn by actually playing with something, and there is no such thing as a perfectly generic linux distribution. Maybe slackware or linux-from-scratch come the closest. So you will necessarily have to play with some distribution, which necessarily will be different from all others, so you will necessarily only partly be learning "linux". You will be learning "ubuntu" or "opensuse" which just happens to have a lot in common with other linux's and with other unix-like systems like freebsd and solaris. But at first you really have no way of knowing what things are general and what things are specific to ubuntu, or opensuse, etc. Just as long as you understand that that is what is happening, that should help you not to be too confused when you come across discrepancies or ambiguities. For instance, some document may say "run this command: fdisk <device>" without saying what <device> is. Frustrating. Well unfortunately they are not being lazy or unhelpful. They _can't_ say what <device> is. Not because they don't know. They know, but they know for themselves, they can't know for you. It's like they know how to buy a new tire for a car, and they know the exact size of their own tires for their own car, but they can not know the exact size of your tires for your car. So they can't give you the full exact directions that you would actually need in order to actually get a tire that would actually work. They may supply a "for example /dev/sda1" but you CAN NOT take that and use it yourself. There is only a small chance that that is correct for you. You have to know how your own system names it's hard drive devices. In fact, on linux, the first hard drive is very often /dev/sda only because of a push the last few years to consolidate the most common disk controller drivers for scsi, sata, and ide to all use the same driver called libata, abd that driver happens to use the same naming scheme as most scsi drivers. But there is absolutely no rule that says disk drive device nodes must be named /dev/sd<something>, and indeed sometimes they are not. In fact, that's actually becoming the LESS preferred way to refer to drive devices now. Now it's usually better to refer to the devices by /dev/disk/by-id/some-long-drive-maufacturer-model-serial-partition or /dev/disk/by-uuid/some-long-uuid-number etc.. because nowadays, the way motherboards and the kernel detects hardware during boot up, it's too dynamic and variable and user-configurable, you can not count on /dev/sda to point to the same physical drive from one boot to the next, so you have to reference something like uuid that is unique to that drive no matter what order it was detected in at boot time. Also on non-linux systems the names vary quite widely. However, the general principles you can apply to almost any unix-like system, devices are almost always accessed via a special kind of file called a device node, almost all disks are such devices, and the devices nodes to access them almost always come in the form of one or more files under /dev. Baically, the one core principle of all unix-like operating systems is that it is made up of a big tool box full of small low level tools that do specific things. And all high level functionality is built out of connecting those tools in different ways. It's all intentionally as generic and non-specific as possible. The "cat" command does not care if it's reading a file or a tty or a pipe from some other program. It is a generic, low level tool that does one tiny thing that seems to be pretty useless by itself. And it is by itself, just like a single Lego block or a single screwdriver. But combine the screwdriver with a screw and a nut and a couple sheets of metal and you start to have a higher level object that is good for something. It might be a dog house or camera or a toilet. And all screwdrivers have certain principles in common, yet, the exact details, all screwdrivers have some details different from each other. Unix is intentionally like that. It's a tool box that you build whatever you want out of. And linux is just one of several unix-like systems. And opensuse is just one of several linux systems. Have I made it confusing and baffling enough ? :) -- bkw (*) Heck, the very concept of a "version" isn't even a universal concept. You asked about the meaning of "rolling release" before. Arch Linux is a distribution that doesn't really have such a thing as a version. All the individual packages in it have versions that are always changing, but the overall distribution never picks any fixed set of packages and says "This defined collection is Arch Linux version 2.0" Instead all packages are always whatever is current at the time you install, and they all update to whatever is current whenever you run an update. That's called a rolling release. The release is always rolling along, it never stops at any milestones. This can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on what your needs and priorities are. It's a live saver is some situations, it's death in others. This is why there are so many distributions of linux. There is no such thing as one way of doing things that is best. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Brian K. White <brian@aljex.com> wrote:

rpm and deb are merely packaged software management systems. There are many ways to manage software installation and removal, and these two are by far the most common, but by no means the only ways. They are only the most common because debian and redhat, and their spin-offs like centos and ubuntu, happen to be the most popular linux distributions currently.

Technically .apk is probably the most popular linux software package fomat since there are probably more Android devices in use than linux desktops even though redhat and debian have been around a lot longer.

Package management is a detail. Don't get too hung up on details at this point. There are not two types of linux. Depending on how you want look at it, or how you want to categorize, there is either only one linux, or there are an uncountable number of linux's. It's not like Windows. There is no overall system written by any one entity or group. There is this big bag of software parts all written by different people, and most of it has nothing to do with the rest of it other than it's all written to be compatible and work according to a common set of general principles, loosely defined as UNIX, and/or POSIX, and/or in the case of Linux specifically, the LSB (linux standard base).

Oh I see. Its just the package management..

Much of the sofware in a linux system is not even written specifically for linux, but is written for any unix/posix compatible system, which includes freebsd, opensolaris, and a host of commercial unixes like sco, sun, hp, ibm.

And I am sure Linux is derivative of Unix.

Systems like redhat, debian, ubuntu, suse, etc... these are called "distributions" not "linux" because that's what they are. They take all the various components of a typical unix-like system and assemble them into a coherent system. This is a significant and complex job and it's why distributions even exist. They have to pick which components to include, and then customize or configure them to fit into an overall system to work with other components.

Okay, I really didn't know this before.

For example, one common component of any unix-like system is "getty" this is a basic program that opens up a tty (a serial port or a console generally) and prints the login prompt and waits for logins, and hands off the tty to /bin/login or some other login authentication method and ultimately to a shell instance (command prompt, ie /bin/sh or /bin/bash).

There are several different getty programs written by different people over the years with different features and details, although they all do roughly the same basic job. Maybe one has special support for detecting incoming faxes or PPP connections on modems, maybe one has support for full-screen color menu/dialog "pretty" login prompts, maybe one is stripped of everything except the absolute minimum required to use the vga console only so it's fast/lighter/smaller, etc.

But the author of mingetty (the minimal getty for use on the local consoles only) may or may not have written any special systemd support into his getty app. For example the Makefile for compiling and installing the app, and the documentation, may just assume that the app will be started from /etc/inittab and that's it. Suse will have to slightly alter _their_ mingetty package so that it includes a systemd service script instead of one or more lines in /etc/inittab, and possibly alter the man-page to reflect that also.

Its really technical (absolutely) but I would really take time to learn step by step (very slow in my case due to my different job) know all these, of course of the great technology.

These are all _details_ that are different for every distribution. They do not make the different distributions into different types of linux.

Ok.

Every distribution has it's own unique pile of these details that makes it different from every other linux.

And yet, there are certain principles that are the same on just about every linux. Almost every distribution has the same major _features_ such as * some version of linux kernel * some sort of libc * some sort of init * some sort of getty * some sort of ssh server * some sort of shell * some sort of package management system

Getting the basic idea....

The ssh serevr is usually OpenSSH, but does not have to be. There are others and some special purpose distributions use them instead. For instance you might use Dropbear on a WebOS device or a linksys router running OpenWRT.

The libc is usually gnu libc, but there are others. You would probably use uclibc on an embedded device or router. You might use a commercial libc with distributed computing support or support for using gpu's or other special vector processors on a big cluster.

The package management system might be deb or rpm, or as in the case of gentoo, most software might be managed similar to the freebsd ports system where a package is just a set of compile and install instructions and everything is compiled-to-order on your own machine right when you install it.

So again. Try not to get too focused on any details yet if this is all new to you.

Yeah, this is really new to me, I have just installed openSUSE 11.4 and in fact, its outlook I have liked - despite it only took a little more time to boot..

Go ahead and read distribution-specific books and articles if you don't happen to find any really good generic ones, but _at first_ don't worry too much about actual details like program names and file locations and command line arguments.

All that stuff is subject to change from one distribution to another, and also changes all the time from one version(*) to the next.

For the purpose of getting started, pick really any distribution, and read documentation that IS specific to that distribution, and see how things work and get familiar. You do have to start somewhere. If you're not going to take a class where a professor will describe general principles abstractly, then you have to learn by actually playing with something, and there is no such thing as a perfectly generic linux distribution. Maybe slackware or linux-from-scratch come the closest. So you will necessarily have to play with some distribution, which necessarily will be different from all others, so you will necessarily only partly be learning "linux". You will be learning "ubuntu" or "opensuse" which just happens to have a lot in common with other linux's and with other unix-like systems like freebsd and solaris. But at first you really have no way of knowing what things are general and what things are specific to ubuntu, or opensuse, etc.

Just as long as you understand that that is what is happening, that should help you not to be too confused when you come across discrepancies or ambiguities.

For instance, some document may say "run this command: fdisk <device>" without saying what <device> is. Frustrating.

Well unfortunately they are not being lazy or unhelpful. They _can't_ say what <device> is. Not because they don't know. They know, but they know for themselves, they can't know for you. It's like they know how to buy a new tire for a car, and they know the exact size of their own tires for their own car, but they can not know the exact size of your tires for your car. So they can't give you the full exact directions that you would actually need in order to actually get a tire that would actually work.

They may supply a "for example /dev/sda1" but you CAN NOT take that and use it yourself. There is only a small chance that that is correct for you. You have to know how your own system names it's hard drive devices. In fact, on linux, the first hard drive is very often /dev/sda only because of a push the last few years to consolidate the most common disk controller drivers for scsi, sata, and ide to all use the same driver called libata, abd that driver happens to use the same naming scheme as most scsi drivers.

But there is absolutely no rule that says disk drive device nodes must be named /dev/sd<something>, and indeed sometimes they are not. In fact, that's actually becoming the LESS preferred way to refer to drive devices now.

Now it's usually better to refer to the devices by /dev/disk/by-id/some-long-drive-maufacturer-model-serial-partition or /dev/disk/by-uuid/some-long-uuid-number etc.. because nowadays, the way motherboards and the kernel detects hardware during boot up, it's too dynamic and variable and user-configurable, you can not count on /dev/sda to point to the same physical drive from one boot to the next, so you have to reference something like uuid that is unique to that drive no matter what order it was detected in at boot time. Also on non-linux systems the names vary quite widely.

However, the general principles you can apply to almost any unix-like system, devices are almost always accessed via a special kind of file called a device node, almost all disks are such devices, and the devices nodes to access them almost always come in the form of one or more files under /dev.

Baically, the one core principle of all unix-like operating systems is that it is made up of a big tool box full of small low level tools that do specific things. And all high level functionality is built out of connecting those tools in different ways. It's all intentionally as generic and non-specific as possible. The "cat" command does not care if it's reading a file or a tty or a pipe from some other program. It is a generic, low level tool that does one tiny thing that seems to be pretty useless by itself. And it is by itself, just like a single Lego block or a single screwdriver. But combine the screwdriver with a screw and a nut and a couple sheets of metal and you start to have a higher level object that is good for something. It might be a dog house or camera or a toilet. And all screwdrivers have certain principles in common, yet, the exact details, all screwdrivers have some details different from each other. Unix is intentionally like that. It's a tool box that you build whatever you want out of. And linux is just one of several unix-like systems. And opensuse is just one of several linux systems.

Have I made it confusing and baffling enough ? :)

Not really, but I really got the idea of it, yes especially because I am a beginner (and get less time), so at times things may look strange to me... But you have told very nice, I really got an idea of what is Linux and something related....Its really good to know.. But one thing I liked is that when you say, 'pick one and start learning its principles' and that's the only way I guess I can do, yes, of course, it might take much more time for me (then it usually take for other --- just because I am in different job).

(*) Heck, the very concept of a "version" isn't even a universal concept. You asked about the meaning of "rolling release" before. Arch Linux is a distribution that doesn't really have such a thing as a version. All the individual packages in it have versions that are always changing, but the overall distribution never picks any fixed set of packages and says "This defined collection is Arch Linux version 2.0" Instead all packages are always whatever is current at the time you install, and they all update to whatever is current whenever you run an update. That's called a rolling release. The release is always rolling along, it never stops at any milestones. This can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on what your needs and priorities are. It's a live saver is some situations, it's death in others. This is why there are so many distributions of linux. There is no such thing as one way of doing things that is best.

Well, got the idea of what is an 'rolling release'. On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:

The point many of us make here is that Linux is about basic principles and putting them together, knowing how things work.

Yes, a better to know and learn how computer works! -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:

Section 1.7 in the URL given above says specifically "redhat-like" and explains that he's using the term 'redhat' to refer to systems that use RPM.  Yes, it doesn't mention Suse, but it doesn't mention Mint either.

Well, it means openSUSE uses manager like .rpm to fetch the packages.

Personally I ONLY use systems that use RPM :-)

However, its personal but I guess you might be liking it because you used only this one or you tried both...? I again say its your personal choice, however.

I have niggling complaints about Linux packages; its like the different auto manufacturers, each has their own idea about what is "value added" over the baseline.  If you want Citroen's suspension, Chrysler's automatic gear box, Volvo's crash-survivability and Cadillac's comfort you aren't going to find it on all in one vehicle on any lot.

Good analogy. I got the idea of distros.

But the baseline is still more reassuring than Windows.

True, that's why have switched.

I run openSuse, Fedora and Mandriva; each are innovative in their own way and conservative in their own way.  Much of this reflects the personalities of the community.  Despite Suse's German origins, this community has a feel that is to me more "international" than the ones I deal with for Mandriva or Fedora.  That may be me, that may be the particular lists (there are many for each distribution).  But I find this opensuse list pretty congenial.

Oh I see, yes I came to know about Linux here, this is for sure a good community.

As was said earlier, that ebook is a bit out of date; linux moves on. Issues like csets and systemd are absent - too new.  But the section on the file system justification is excellent. (see the 'rationale' under 35.2 http://rute.2038bug.com/node38.html.gz#SECTION003820000000000000000)

Okay and even if it out of date, but all those principles of the book are applicable to our (openSUSE) distro as well, may be due to new technologies, new packages have been added but the older one remains there. On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:

Redhat, mandriva, suse, mint ..  use RPM packaging

Debian, ubuntu .. use deb packaging.

Ok, got about these package management tools. On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 5:58 PM, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:

Linux is Linux is Linux.

Yeah, that's perhaps the kernel we called 'Linux'.

There are differences in details of administration, but so what?

I can drive any automobile, left hand drive, or right hand drive, automatic or shift; three, four or five gear.  I can drive pick-up trucks and vans.  I can drive the BMW mini and fill sized Caddy.

Yeah, means installing anyone and start learning that.. like openSUSE. On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:

You don't need to bother with this, Tyro. Focus on getting your system installed and running under openSuse with the openSuse distributions.

Sure.

Going down avenues like this without the basics in place will just confuse you and make other matters more difficult to understand

Correct, so I just go out with openSUSE distro and see the Linux. -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/02/2011 09:20 AM, Anton Aylward pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

Linux Tyro said the following on 11/02/2011 09:02 AM:

...

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Anton Aylward<opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:

...

Redhat, mandriva, suse, mint .. use RPM packaging

...

Debian, ubuntu .. use deb packaging.

Ok, got about these package management tools.

*sigh* Its about tools; its about the business decisions as to which packing to go with. Once you make that decision as a distributor all else follows.

It is NOT "If its RPM it must be redhat". Its that Redhat decided to go with RPM. Once Redhat made that decision they developed their tools.

Actually it was Redhat that created RPM, Redhat Package Manager. And I may be wrong here but I think it was one of the first package managers created that helped make linux easier to use. To the OP, just install openSuSE and then start asking your many help question that you _will_ have. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:

The tools did not exist prior to then being developed by the various distributors.  The distributors existed first and they actually defined the packaging.

Oh yeah.

I look forward to hearing that you have the system installed and running

I have the system installed and running but facing some initial tasks, would soon be asking after seeing the greek desktop :)- On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:

If you made a mistake it is not that; you are better off with a stable version like 11.4 than a bleeding edge version like 12.0

Oh really, well I have installed it (11.4). On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE <suse-list3@bout-tyme.net> wrote:

Actually it was Redhat that created RPM, Redhat Package Manager. And I may be wrong here but I think it was one of the first package managers created that helped make linux easier to use.

Oh I see.

To the OP, just install openSuSE and then start asking your many help question that you _will_ have.

Sure, I am going to ask something basics, yes I am facing issues, installed the openSUSE 114, looks good only booting is a slow bit.., but that doesn't really matter. On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 10:43 AM, LLLActive@GMX.Net <LLLActive@gmx.net> wrote:

I started "playing" Linux when SlackWare came out in the 1990's, then dropped it because of work load. Early 2004 I started with SuSE Linux 9.x as I was working in a German company at the time. I guessed using a German distro would provide good German documentation, which was actually good for beginners then. It was a steep learning curve coming from Win2K. I used it at work and at home, spending unending hours figuring out what to do. This way is for the enthusiast and power user. This list is excellent for that.

I have a more basic problem.

I have converted a few friend's systems to Ubuntu at first, because of it's usability for ex-Win users, and some good support by their community for migrates from Win. The converts are all quite happy using the openOffice and Internet tools, because they do not use games and some win locked products. Then new users wanted Netbooks with Linux. I managed to put an Ubuntu Desktop on top of an openSUSE 10.x. But since then I only use openSUSE, and depending on the user use either Gnome or KDE. I looked around and found little in the line of basic books for beginners to use e.g. openSUSE 11.x with KDE 4 and Gnome Desktops. The basics of how to use programmes and so on. The book "Running Linux" suggested here is far too advanced for novice users. They want to read how to write documents, save them where, send e-mails and watch DVD's on the system etc. I have seen some magazine type of booklets when a new version of a distro comes out in Germany, but does anyone know of good absolute beginner desktop users 'booklets'? Best would be PDF's that could be printed and maybe also being available in print. I could teach them all how to use openSUSE Desktops on Linux, but I do not have the time for that. Can anyone recommend a publisher or series that regularly issue such basic books in English, and maybe translations in German and Dutch?

I have tried suggestions to use the LDP (http://www.tldp.org/), but most say that is too much and overwhelming. They want a users manual like the one thy get with their TV and DVD to use the remote etc. It must also address the specific distro's exact desktop they see before them. They are also mainly graphically oriented, i.e. they want a picture-by-picture type of presentation. It is the only way to get openSUSE and Linux desktop usable in the PC market. I have done some basic tutorials with screen shots about Thunderbird and and such apps, but a community project could be one way to do it for a whole distro. Are there such attempts yet?

You also have nice Linux experience. On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer@gmail.com> wrote:

Especially since you're new, stick to 11.4 for a few months. People have experience with it. You can ask questions and get knowledgeable answers.

When 12.1 comes out in a couple weeks, few people will have the answers, and there will be a number of new bugs. As a new user, you definitely don't want to be part of that process.

As an example, those of us that run servers typically wait many months before updating to a new release. So I for one won't be putting 12.1 on a server until March or later.

The reality is my servers are still on 11.3 and it is now time for me to move them to 11.4 since it has been out for 7 or so months and the initial release bugs have been mostly fixed.

I have one server stuck on 10.3 because it relies on a very old version of Ruby on Rails which is not available on newer installs.

That's really nice and yes I have just installed 11.4 only. On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Ricardo Chung <ricardo.a.chung@gmail.com> wrote:

In case you are interested http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596101831.do is a SUSE & openSUSE specific book that made me to understand our distro idiosyncracies. It's not updated to the new releases but can give you SUSE unique concepts.

Ah, try and search for its download.

There are not many SUSE or openSUSE specific covering the whole aspects you could be interested in. Another basic book is SUSE and openSUSE Bible.

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 11:30 PM, Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:

Or you could download only the tiny net install CD iso of 12.1RC1, install that via HTTP, then update to the final version in a few weeks, also via the internet of only the software packages you actually need. I've yet to even install any torrent app, much less download anything that way.

I see that, but first let me see this 11.4, I am absolutely new after all. -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Linux Tyro said the following on 11/02/2011 04:37 AM:

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Linux Tyro <opensuse.bkn1@gmail.com> wrote:

...

http://rute.2038bug.com/node4.html.gz#SECTION00470000000000000000

...

Just want to know if all things work here as well in openSUSE.

I meant this book is for Redhat and Debain only or for use in openSUSE too, confused a little, please elaborate.

Linux is Linux is Linux. There are differences in details of administration, but so what? I can drive any automobile, left hand drive, or right hand drive, automatic or shift; three, four or five gear. I can drive pick-up trucks and vans. I can drive the BMW mini and fill sized Caddy. There is nothing special about that. Car rental companies, moving truck rental companies, rely on this 'interoperability.' Yes, some cars have wheel that have 4 lugs and bolts and some have five. Some small trucks and pick-up have ones with six. Will this bother you if you have to change a tire. Will it bother you of what you change is a 'tyre' rather than a 'tire'? Some engines have six cylinders, some have only four. Some even have eight - WOW! This bothers you when you put gas in the tank? What if you put petrol in instead? What if you have to change the spark-plugs? Some things amaze me, one is what I term "Learned Incompetence". For a basic user, the menu, the bottom bar, the layout of various mail programs (outlook, thunderbird, kmail, pegasus), web mail interfaces, word processors, spreadsheets and so on, running under windowing systems with built-in help and icons and pull-down menus are not blindingly different. What I'm saying is that if you can use Outlook you can use Thunderbird -- unless you've been conditioned by Microsoft that anything except Microsoft is unusable. This is probably the biggest hurdle with moving from Windows to Linux these days. And Tyro, you're doing some of this, making it all a bigger issue than it is. Like the Nike adverts say -- "Just Do It!" If you can drive the Honda Accord that is Windows you can drive the Buick Park Avenue that is Linux. -- Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit. -- Aristotle -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:45:13 Felix Miata wrote:

On 2011/11/02 08:28 (GMT-0400) Anton Aylward composed:

...

Some engines have six cylinders, some have only four. Some even have eight - WOW!

My two automobiles have a combined total of zero cylinders making up their engines. They do have a typical complement of lock, brake and clutch cylinders. :-p

Mazda rotaries? :-) -- =================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au =================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

LLLActive@GMX.Net said the following on 11/02/2011 10:43 AM:

I have done some basic tutorials with screen shots about Thunderbird and and such apps,

Good! Congratulations. Then you know that documentation is harder than programming, MUCH harder, and often less gratifying, since so many programmers look down upon you. They see themselves as the 'creators' and you as not even as import enough to be considered plagiarists. But if you look to the professional companies, the Big Names, they devote a lot of effort to documentation. Documentation is what makes a professional product. This kind of end-user documentation, with accurate screen shots for the same version that the end user is using -- and THAT is VERY important - is hard work, tedious work. It is too often undervalued, not least of all because it is so easily outdated. Which gets back to my point about "Learned Disability". The step from MS-Word of OpenOfficeWriter isn't that great. Heck, its a GUI for $DEITY's sake! Its just another modeless text editor for 90% of what you do with it. The details of the menu items might be in a different place but the difference are less than those between Word97 and Word2003. Oh, wait! Look at all the companies making a living running courses for things like that. Are people really that dumb? Was John Gatto right about our education system? -- The trouble with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org