I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this mailing list (before it renamed). For the record i was waiting 10.2 and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg persons.
Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
So I'm moving to new distro. Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now. I can do better and mod perl 2 excites me.
So thank you once again and goodbye. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 13 November 2006 12:00, SheridanJ West wrote:
I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this mailing list (before it renamed). For the record i was waiting 10.2 and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg persons.
Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
So I'm moving to new distro. Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now. I can do better and mod perl 2 excites me.
So thank you once again and goodbye.
Thanks for using SUSE and see you soon ;)
Hugo Costelha --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I have an opinion considering the deal between Microsoft and Novell. The deal doesn't mean that Novell made a deal with evil, because this deal has not been made long time ago, I think Microsoft did this step when she realized that Novel SUSE has became a strong competitor to her OS. This of course means that SUSE because really strong, and will be more strong in the future.
Regards,...
TheOldWiseKing
SheridanJ West wrote:
I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this mailing list (before it renamed). For the record i was waiting 10.2 and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg persons.
Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
So I'm moving to new distro. Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now. I can do better and mod perl 2 excites me.
So thank you once again and goodbye.
To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
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On 11/13/06, TheOldWiseKing theoldwiseking@gmail.com wrote:
I have an opinion considering the deal between Microsoft and Novell. The deal doesn't mean that Novell made a deal with evil,
replace word microsoft with the word sco
because this deal has not been made long time ago, I think Microsoft did this step when she realized that Novel SUSE has became a strong competitor to her OS. This of course means that SUSE because really strong, and will be more strong in the future.
Maybe/maybe not some us remember the netware days, and the days when wordperfect was the 'thing'. I imagine in five years time novell will be wondering 'wow how did that happen' and Novell will be once again trying to redefine 'Novell'.
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It's not easy to say that Novell will try to re-define 'Novell'. Business doesn't go such a way. But I think that by leaving SUSE, u r allowing Microsoft to become stronger, because u r leaving the OS that made Microsoft becomes afraid. After years of Work in SUSE to become a 'thing', now u r leaving it to another 'nothing'. How about if u join Mandriva community, and the community evolved until Mandriva Linux become a 'thing', then Microsoft did the same with Mandriva, will u leave it again??, if we do so, we will leave all great things and make them weak.
SUSE is not great with the its code or architecutre, SUSE is great with the community that created the great thing called SUSE.
I advice u not to leave it, and we shall wait until this storm goes away. and we will see what will happen between them.
and As james knott said, the deal shall force Microsoft to work under GPL, and this will not happen. Simply, Microsoft will not allow MS Word to be open source.
Regards,...
TheOldWiseKing
SheridanJ West wrote:
On 11/13/06, TheOldWiseKing theoldwiseking@gmail.com wrote:
I have an opinion considering the deal between Microsoft and Novell. The deal doesn't mean that Novell made a deal with evil,
replace word microsoft with the word sco
because this deal has not been made long time ago, I think Microsoft did this step when she realized that Novel SUSE has became a strong competitor to her OS. This of course means that SUSE because really strong, and will be more strong in the future.
Maybe/maybe not some us remember the netware days, and the days when wordperfect was the 'thing'. I imagine in five years time novell will be wondering 'wow how did that happen' and Novell will be once again trying to redefine 'Novell'.
You have your view I have mine.
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On 11/13/06, SheridanJ West sheridanj.west@gmail.com wrote:
Maybe/maybe not some us remember the netware days, and the days when wordperfect was the 'thing'. I imagine in five years time novell will be wondering 'wow how did that happen' and Novell will be once again trying to redefine 'Novell'.
Yeah, but you can't completely blame Novell for WordPerfect. The problem with WordPerfect was that at first, it didn't really transition gracefully from DOS to Windows. And thats where MS Word gobbled up market share. Blame the Wordperfect developers more than Novell marketing for that one. Just my opinion.
On 11/13/06, TheOldWiseKing theoldwiseking@gmail.com wrote:
...I think Microsoft did this step when she realized that Novel SUSE has became a strong competitor to her OS.
However much I would have liked it if I could wokr on more SUSE and less Microsoft, from my experience, at least in my neck of the woods, most businesses are not migrating from windows and windows apps to SUSE or linux.
JJ Gitties wrote:
However much I would have liked it if I could wokr on more SUSE and less Microsoft, from my experience, at least in my neck of the woods, most businesses are not migrating from windows and windows apps to SUSE or linux.
In my "neck of the woods", businesses are migrating not only windoze to linux, but also hpux to linux, solaris to linux, and specifically, redhat to suse.
So, either you're doing a really poor job of promoting, or you're working in a hopeless environment, and it's time to move on.
It sounds like you choose to stay put and be involved with microsoft, the very thing for which you condemn Novell.
Joe
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On Monday 13 November 2006 08:41, JJ Gitties wrote:
However much I would have liked it if I could wokr on more SUSE and less Microsoft, from my experience, at least in my neck of the woods, most businesses are not migrating from windows and windows apps to SUSE or linux.
While this is true of the desktops, its not true for servers in my area.
Many local businesses (especially small business) are running Linux servers for their fleet of windows desktops.
Most of my clients are running specialized software that is not released for Linux, so they have to stick with windows desktops.
Guys, just a small FYI:
You don't need to send an email saying you are going to leave, or you are sad, or its raining today. I myself couldn't care less about it. Most people would think its not from their fscking business too. So from now on a simple "unsubscribe the list without a last message" will do the trick. Really.
Thanks
Marcio Ferreira
On 11/13/06, John Andersen jsa@pen.homeip.net wrote:
On Monday 13 November 2006 08:41, JJ Gitties wrote:
However much I would have liked it if I could wokr on more SUSE and less Microsoft, from my experience, at least in my neck of the woods, most businesses are not migrating from windows and windows apps to SUSE or linux.
While this is true of the desktops, its not true for servers in my area.
Many local businesses (especially small business) are running Linux servers for their fleet of windows desktops.
Most of my clients are running specialized software that is not released for Linux, so they have to stick with windows desktops.
-- _____________________________________ John Andersen
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On Monday 13 November 2006 11:11, Druid wrote:
Guys, just a small FYI:
You don't need to send an email saying you are going to leave, or you are sad, or its raining today. I myself couldn't care less about it.
Topic drift has already set in Druid.
Don't lash out at a random post till you at least read it.
On Monday 13 November 2006 15:11, Druid wrote:
Guys, just a small FYI:
You don't need to send an email saying you are going to leave, or you are sad, or its raining today. I myself couldn't care less about it. Most people would think its not from their fscking business too. So from now on a simple "unsubscribe the list without a last message" will do the trick. Really.
Writing a goodbye note then coming back to argue about it is a classic move. Why do I feel six months from now we'll still be listening to why they left the list?
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On 11/13/06, John Andersen jsa@pen.homeip.net wrote:
While this is true of the desktops, its not true for servers in my area.
I was talking desktops. And you are right.
Many local businesses (especially small business) are running Linux
servers for their fleet of windows desktops.
Most of my clients are running specialized software that is not released for Linux, so they have to stick with windows desktops.
Yup... I know that they mean. Anyone had some fun trying to run the new quickbooks on samba lately?
SheridanJ West wrote:
I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this mailing list (before it renamed). For the record i was waiting 10.2 and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg persons.
Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
So I'm moving to new distro. Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now. I can do better and mod perl 2 excites me.
So thank you once again and goodbye.
Before being too hasty, please get your facts straight. It is not a licensing deal. Novell ensured the agreement was compliant with GPL. It doesn't give them the right to include MS patents in Linux. It simply means MS won't sue SUSE users, should a patent violation turn up. Also, MS is paying Novell far more than what Novell pays MS, so the net result is more money for Novell. Someone else had posted a link to a Novell Q&A page. Perhaps you might want to read it.
That said, I am opposed to any such deal with MS, as I'll always be suspicious of them.
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SheridanJ West wrote:
I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this mailing list (before it renamed). For the record i was waiting 10.2 and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg persons.
Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
So I'm moving to new distro. Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now. I can do better and mod perl 2 excites me.
So thank you once again and goodbye.
I accept your sentiments, and wish you all the very best.
I suspect that you have expressed publicly the feelings quite a few people here have also possibly acquired over the past several days.
Cheers.
Basil Chupin wrote:
SheridanJ West wrote:
I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this mailing list (before it renamed). For the record i was waiting 10.2 and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg persons.
Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
So I'm moving to new distro. Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now. I can do better and mod perl 2 excites me.
So thank you once again and goodbye.
I accept your sentiments, and wish you all the very best.
I suspect that you have expressed publicly the feelings quite a few people here have also possibly acquired over the past several days.
One thing a lot of people are forgetting, is there's still OpenSUSE, which contributes no money whatsoever to MS and isn't likely to receive any MS patents.
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On Mon, 2006-11-13 at 12:00 +0000, SheridanJ West wrote:
I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this mailing list (before it renamed). For the record i was waiting 10.2 and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg persons.
Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
So I'm moving to new distro. Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now. I can do better and mod perl 2 excites me.
So thank you once again and goodbye.
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Your choice, good luck.
But.... without starting one of those boring anti MS threads: What does this really mean for OpenSUSE users? Aren't this just the thing to prove that big corps cant kill Distros (as long as they are fully OSS)?
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On 11/13/06, Hans van der Merwe hvdmerwe@sunspace.co.za wrote:
But.... without starting one of those boring anti MS threads: What does this really mean for OpenSUSE users? Aren't this just the thing to prove that big corps cant kill Distros (as long as they are fully OSS)?
Ahhh . well thats the $64,000 question, isn't it? Will core developers leave OpenSUSE and move to work on another project? Will the net result be that the OpenSUSE project will degrade in quality because it lost major brain power behind it? If the OpenSUSE project/product/distro starts to suck, users will naturally flock to a "better" distro.
Time will tell I guess.
I see nothing wrong in doing any such contracts with Microsoft.
I believe Novell's Advocates, Management and Lawyers are fully aware of the consequences, and I believe that if Novell agreed to do that, they have a reason. I believe Novell management knows company politics better than us, Community Linuxoids. Maybe they have better vision of the future.
As a *Community Member* I can tell you, that I support any such Novell move as long as it doesn't hurt openSUSE project.
Even through I do not understand that political spin fully, because lack of public data. So if you believe in Novell management, please stop this useless discussion. I am sure this move is benefical to Novell.
CALL TO ALL: -I call to all SUSE community members stay with Novell & backup their moves.
-Alexey Eremenko. 13.11.2006. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I'll tell you what this patent protection did for me.
I had a nearly fully functioning SUSE 10.0 system. I never could get the nVidia driver to install and work for 3D video, although it worked fine in SUSE 9.2 Professional.
I made the mistake of upgrading to openSUSE 10.2 and now I'm regretting it big time. Mplayer was uninstalled by the upgrade, and none of my multimedia apps work cause of file format patents, from what I can tell by the big warning about patents on a Novell web page. I never saw or heard a peep out of Novell about patents before this Microsoft "deal". I think Novell got shafted by Microsoft. Time will tell, especially if MS ends up acquiring Red Hat (heaven forbid the financial experts are wrong).
Why in the heck did openSUSE 10.2 have to remove a perfectly functioning Mplayer and leave me with a broken Kaffeine (which worked great before) and broken Noatun and broken XMMS, etc. I can't play any video formats now or burn any CDs. This is really pitiful.
I'm really disgusted with what this upgrade has done. And why so many file updating programs? There's Yast, Yum, Smart, openSUSE Update, Synaptic, and a few more I can't remember at the moment. How in the world is a Windows user ever gonna convert and deal with so many choices? The strangest thing of all is how the documentation compares Smart to Yast and Yum and shows how superior it is to both. Then why include Yast and Yum anymore? Just provide Smart package manager and be done with it. Package management in Linux leaves a lot to be desired, compared to Windows Add/Remove Program and Setup programs.
Is Linux desktop ready for prime time? I wish, but unfortunately, that's not the present situation.
Disgruntled openSUSE user
Alexey Eremenko wrote:
I see nothing wrong in doing any such contracts with Microsoft.
I believe Novell's Advocates, Management and Lawyers are fully aware of the consequences, and I believe that if Novell agreed to do that, they have a reason. I believe Novell management knows company politics better than us, Community Linuxoids. Maybe they have better vision of the future.
As a *Community Member* I can tell you, that I support any such Novell move as long as it doesn't hurt openSUSE project.
Even through I do not understand that political spin fully, because lack of public data. So if you believe in Novell management, please stop this useless discussion. I am sure this move is benefical to Novell.
CALL TO ALL: -I call to all SUSE community members stay with Novell & backup their moves.
-Alexey Eremenko. 13.11.2006.
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.
Thanx for the heads up your leaving. we will all miss you...
On Saturday 23 December 2006 19:14, John wrote:
I had a nearly fully functioning SUSE 10.0 system. I never could get the nVidia driver to install and work for 3D video, although it worked fine in SUSE 9.2 Professional.
Do you have 9.2 installation media? In 2 hours or lesser you can have 9.2 again.
...I never saw or heard a peep out of Novell about patents before ...
That doesn't mean they didn't existed.
Why in the heck did openSUSE 10.2 have to remove a perfectly functioning Mplayer ...
Installing it again is faster that to write one big email.
I'm really disgusted with what this upgrade has done. And why so many file updating programs?
To puzzle the observers.
How in the world is a Windows user ever gonna convert and deal with so many choices?
Then they have to do nothing and computer will work as before ;-)
The strangest thing of all is how the documentation compares Smart to Yast and Yum and shows how superior it is to both.
Documentation? Where is own experience?
Then why include Yast and Yum anymore?
It helps to maintain gray cells in good condition.
Package management in Linux leaves a lot to be desired, compared to Windows Add/Remove Program and Setup programs.
Who has desire for the license fees?
Is Linux desktop ready for prime time?
It already has a prime time, but not as a fake jukebox.
On Sat, 2006-12-23 at 20:39 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
Package management in Linux leaves a lot to be desired, compared to Windows Add/Remove Program and Setup programs.
Who has desire for the license fees?
Yast did a nice job for me when I wanted fonts and other certain programs removed.
On Saturday 23 December 2006 21:05, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:
On Sat, 2006-12-23 at 20:39 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
Package management in Linux leaves a lot to be desired, compared to Windows Add/Remove Program and Setup programs.
Who has desire for the license fees?
Yast did a nice job for me when I wanted fonts and other certain programs removed.
Mike,
leaving financial point and your sting for a moment, let me explain my experience.
The packaging system like rpm or deb are in function and intentions similar to windows Add/Remove Program, but due to difference in operating system design and distribution, software vendor attempt to change libraries used by all programs will not pass unnoticed. That is big difference to windows and it is nothing to desire.
Apparent simplicity for user of installation is not the only criteria that is used to evaluate software management. What happens during and after installation, as well removal is also important.
Windows Add/Remove Program never warned me that one program is installing system wide library that should not be touched by anyone except operating system vendor, as other software vendors use published specifications to design their products.
How many times programs left junk hanging around using system resources, because of sloppy defined unistall procedure.
On Saturday 23 December 2006 16:14, John wrote:
Is Linux desktop ready for prime time? I wish, but unfortunately, that's not the present situation.
Add the Packman repository and upgrade from there and write your congressman (if you have one).
All will be well again
On 2006-12-23 19:14, John wrote:
I'll tell you what this patent protection did for me.
First off, you should be aware that a great deal of protected stuff has not been in SuSELinux, for quite some time. Your Mplayer was uninstalled because of legal reasons, and Novell/SuSE cannot do much about that, if they want to protect their asses and yours from some rather expensive lawsuits.
The codec patents involved in Mplayer for the most part do not belong to Microsoft. The various patented formats, such as mp3, are owned by someone else. Therefore, nothing in the Novell/MS agreement can allow those codecs to be put into the distribution.
I made the mistake of upgrading to openSUSE 10.2 and now I'm regretting it big time. Mplayer was uninstalled by the upgrade, and none of my
So put in a link to a Packman mirror, and put it back.
Is Linux desktop ready for prime time? I wish, but unfortunately, that's not the present situation.
Well, you go talk to the boys that own the mp3 patents and tell them they should just give Novell the rights to distribute the codecs, without fee. I am sure they will listen.
On Saturday 23 December 2006 18:26, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
Your Mplayer was uninstalled because of legal reasons, and Novell/SuSE cannot do much about that, if they want to protect their asses and yours from some rather expensive lawsuits.
Actually, that is not exactly true.
Novell does not un-install software to protect 3rd party patents.
His Mplayer was un-installed because its dependencies could not be met. Its that simple. Leaving it there would result in an Mplayer that was horribly broken.
Newer versions of pre-requsits or needed libraries were installed but these could not support mplayer.
The two options presented were for him to DECLINE the upgrade, or go ahead with it and re-install his 3rd party stuff again afterwards.
And the installer DOES indeed ask that question, showing those packages that can't be updated.
On 2006-12-23 22:47, John Andersen wrote:
On Saturday 23 December 2006 18:26, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
Your Mplayer was uninstalled because of legal reasons, and Novell/SuSE cannot do much about that, if they want to protect their asses and yours from some rather expensive lawsuits.
Actually, that is not exactly true.
Novell does not un-install software to protect 3rd party patents.
His Mplayer was un-installed because its dependencies could not be met. Its that simple. Leaving it there would result in an Mplayer that was horribly broken.
Quite true. I was very hasty in sending out my note, because I am growing very weary of seeing this same junk over and over again. As usually happens when one is overly hasty, the result was very misleading.
However, I disagree that it's -quite- that simple. I didn't check the repository previously, but it seems that mplayer is not even included in the 10.2 distribution. Novell certainly is not in any legal position to distribute a great deal of the necessary support that mplayer needs, which is probably behind a decision not to include it at all. Mplayer is a very popular product, and I doubt/hope it would not have been excluded from SuSE for any other reason.
The end result is, of course, still the same: An existing package cannot be upgraded, resulting in dependency conflicts, hence no alternative exists but to remove it.
On Sat December 23 2006 11:47 pm, John Andersen scratched these words onto a coconut shell, hoping for an answer:
On Saturday 23 December 2006 18:26, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
Your Mplayer was uninstalled because of legal reasons, and Novell/SuSE cannot do much about that, if they want to protect their asses and yours from some rather expensive lawsuits.
Actually, that is not exactly true.
Novell does not un-install software to protect 3rd party patents.
His Mplayer was un-installed because its dependencies could not be met. Its that simple. Leaving it there would result in an Mplayer that was horribly broken.
Newer versions of pre-requsits or needed libraries were installed but these could not support mplayer.
The two options presented were for him to DECLINE the upgrade, or go ahead with it and re-install his 3rd party stuff again afterwards.
And the installer DOES indeed ask that question, showing those packages that can't be updated.
And to sum up once again ( I guess repetitition does nothing for some people) DO NOT UPGRADE that way.. create a separate /home area which you almost never will have to touch again. And then install every new version you get onto a clean drive. It weeds out the cr@p you install just fooling around.
After that, as others have said, go to packman and download various bits needed to get your Mplayer or anything else to work again. takes less time than being angry that it doesn't conform to MS versions . W/ the 10.2 various package managers, you can put it on auto and like WIndows you will never know what was installed. Pick your poisen.
If you are truely leaving, that is sad, because you will miss making your computer the safest one about. Security really is *THE* most important thing to us.. after that, we get stuff working again that might have been broken.
In fact that was the reason it seems there are so many updates. Security, things get found after the box has been sent off to the printer. We *could* just leave the back doors and coding mistakes in it and deny they are even there. Instead they work really hard the whole time to fix everything. And BTW , unless you are a corporate user it's basically free for you.
You *do* realize you are using 10.2 before the box hits the shelves, do you not? ;)
jfweber@gilweber.com wrote:
...
And to sum up once again ( I guess repetitition does nothing for some people) DO NOT UPGRADE that way.. create a separate /home area which you almost never will have to touch again. And then install every new version you get onto a clean drive. It weeds out the cr@p you install just fooling around.
I can vouch for this advice. I did this a couple of years ago, and every update since 9.2 has left my home directory intact and fully usable.
Just two problems: first, I took others' advice again to switch from Reiser to ext3fs, but my home directory is too big to get onto cd's or dvd's, so I now have a system based on ext3fs except for the /home directory, which is still Reiser. I'm digging through the home directories so I can divide it onto several dvds, but it's going to take a while.
Second, I keep finding stuff I really don't want to dump, even though I haven't looked at it in years. And may never look at again. So, converting my home partition over to ext3fs may take a long time, if I ever done. I just hope the deep bugs on this list keep talking about in Reiser don't come to my system.
John E. Perry wrote:
jfweber@gilweber.com wrote:
...
And to sum up once again ( I guess repetitition does nothing for some people) DO NOT UPGRADE that way.. create a separate /home area which you almost never will have to touch again. And then install every new version you get onto a clean drive. It weeds out the cr@p you install just fooling around.
I can vouch for this advice. I did this a couple of years ago, and every update since 9.2 has left my home directory intact and fully usable.
Just two problems: first, I took others' advice again to switch from Reiser to ext3fs, but my home directory is too big to get onto cd's or dvd's, so I now have a system based on ext3fs except for the /home directory, which is still Reiser. I'm digging through the home directories so I can divide it onto several dvds, but it's going to take a while.
Second, I keep finding stuff I really don't want to dump, even though I haven't looked at it in years. And may never look at again. So, converting my home partition over to ext3fs may take a long time, if I ever done. I just hope the deep bugs on this list keep talking about in Reiser don't come to my system.
How big *is* your /home directory?! :-)
And how big is your / partition where Suse is intstalled? Surely it must be big enough and with enough space left for you to copy your current /home directory to / then format your current /home partition in ext3 and then it copy back from / . No, this can't be done?
Cheers.
Basil Chupin wrote:
John E. Perry wrote:
Just two problems: first, I took others' advice again to switch from Reiser to ext3fs, but my home directory is too big to get onto cd's or dvd's, so I now have a system based on ext3fs except for the /home directory, which is still Reiser. I'm digging through the home directories so I can divide it onto several dvds, but it's going to take a while.
How big *is* your /home directory?! :-)
32+G. I have thousands of technical documents from 35+ years of engineering work, hundreds more from hobbies I've had over the years, and dozens more from various projects I've done on contract since I got laid off from my last few jobs.
And how big is your / partition where Suse is intstalled? Surely it must be big enough and with enough space left for you to copy your current /home directory to / then format your current /home partition in ext3 and then it copy back from / . No, this can't be done?
/ is 20G, of which suse 10.2 takes up 5.7G, and I haven't finished installing all the applications I need and want.
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The Monday 2006-12-25 at 14:33 -0500, John E. Perry wrote:
How big *is* your /home directory?! :-)
32+G. I have thousands of technical documents from 35+ years of engineering work, hundreds more from hobbies I've had over the years, and dozens more from various projects I've done on contract since I got laid off from my last few jobs.
Wow. And why do you not have all that on backup?
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Wow. And why do you not have all that on backup?
Much of it on the original cd's and floppies I used to transfer it from my NASA and CEBAF computers over the years. All the truly critical stuff is backed up on new cd's. Some I never bothered to back up because I had downloaded it from the Internet. Some of it I can still find on the Net, some not.
And so on.
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The Monday 2006-12-25 at 16:11 -0500, John E. Perry wrote:
Wow. And why do you not have all that on backup?
Much of it on the original cd's and floppies I used to transfer it from my NASA and CEBAF computers over the years. All the truly critical stuff is backed up on new cd's. Some I never bothered to back up because I had downloaded it from the Internet. Some of it I can still find on the Net, some not.
So, you do not have a full backup solution. We all should.
You can save to several dvds, or to an external HD that you unplug and store somewhere else, for instance.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
On Sunday 24 December 2006 21:14, John E. Perry wrote:
Just two problems: first, I took others' advice again to switch from Reiser to ext3fs,
Precisely who gave you that bum advice? There is no reason what so ever to switch filesystems on an existing partition which you had no desire to reformat anyway.
John Andersen wrote:
On Sunday 24 December 2006 21:14, John E. Perry wrote:
Just two problems: first, I took others' advice again to switch from Reiser to ext3fs,
Precisely who gave you that bum advice? There is no reason what so ever to switch filesystems on an existing partition which you had no desire to reformat anyway.
OK, advice is too strong a word. Since suse switched over to making ext3 the default, rather than reiser3, there have been many posts on this list telling about Reiser 3 corrupting data, sometimes recoverable, sometimes not. The message I got was not to change unless there was good reason.
So, two weeks ago, I got what I see as good reason -- my / partition was suddenly unavailable after a zen update. fsck.reiser brought everything back, but that's what finally made install 10.2 (which everyone is saying is much better than 10.1 (my experince agrees).
So, when it offered to format the /, /var, and /home partitions, I let it do / and /var.
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The Monday 2006-12-25 at 14:44 -0500, John E. Perry wrote:
So, two weeks ago, I got what I see as good reason -- my / partition was suddenly unavailable after a zen update. fsck.reiser brought everything back, but that's what finally made install 10.2 (which everyone is saying is much better than 10.1 (my experince agrees).
And... didn't you ever have to fsck any ext3 partition to recover from some dissaster, sucessfully I hope? That's a normal thing for any filesystem. All can get corrupted - otherwise, the fsck utility would not even exist.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Monday 2006-12-25 at 14:44 -0500, John E. Perry wrote:
So, two weeks ago, I got what I see as good reason -- my / partition was suddenly unavailable after a zen update. fsck.reiser brought everything back, but that's what finally made install 10.2 (which everyone is saying is much better than 10.1 (my experince agrees).
And... didn't you ever have to fsck any ext3 partition to recover from some dissaster, sucessfully I hope?
No. All my linux experience has been with ext2, and all my professional experience has been with VMS, various RTOS's, MSDOS, Windows, and small standalone systems. I never had a crash that I couldn't identify as a hardware problem, and I never dug deep enough into linux to learn all the intricacies of file systems and such. I only dumped Windows two years ago because suse9.0 appeared to work well enough that I could depend upon it for my contract work. OpenOffice was the trigger -- it meant I could deal with clients chained to Windows without being chained myself. So I didn't have to get XP and Office.
That's a normal thing for any
filesystem. All can get corrupted - otherwise, the fsck utility would not even exist.
Sure. But it's rare enough with ext2 that I never had a problem that I couldn't identify as a hardware disk crash, and several people on this list complained of mysterious reiser3 partition corruption. As I say, I didn't take them too seriously until it happened to me.
On Monday 25 December 2006 11:48, John E. Perry wrote:
That's a normal thing for any filesystem. All can get corrupted - otherwise, the fsck utility would not even exist.
Sure. But it's rare enough with ext2 that I never had a problem that I couldn't identify as a hardware disk crash
Then, I suggest you have had the benefit of a charmed exitance. ;-) My experience with ext2 has been maddening to say the least. The mere fact that the developers felt the need to bolt journaling on top of ext2 should tell you something about its reliability. Ext3 is nothing but ext2 (still as risky as ever) with a journal tagging along to clean up the ext2 mess.
My ext2 usage suggests ANY abnormal shutdown was likely to corrupt it, and EVERY power failure was certain to. It remains to be seen if ext3 can overcome this problem.
OTOH, i've never lost anything with reiser, crash, power fail, or kernel panic. Over the years I've had to reiserfsck maybe 3 times on 6 or 8 machines. (this dates back to 8.x when I switched to reiser.).
The stated reasons for suse switching away from reiser had nothing to do with reliability. It was scalability and features for more complex indexing and a small developer community.
and several people on this list complained of mysterious reiser3 partition corruption.
But, but, but... You can't come to a mutual help list and then turn around a say See, look at all the problems!!! If you follow that theory you would never run suse at all. Or Ubuntu. Or windows. You'd get out of computers completely. When was the last time you saw a post about stuck abacus beads?
People without problems don't post.
On Mon December 25 2006 4:55 pm, John Andersen scratched these words onto a coconut shell, hoping for an answer: <snip>
But, but, but... You can't come to a mutual help list and then turn around a say See, look at all the problems!!! If you follow that theory you would never run suse at all. Or Ubuntu. Or windows. You'd get out of computers completely. When was the last time you saw a post about stuck abacus beads?
People without problems don't post.
Bless you, I have been maintaining that point exactly when I face some resistance round here.
P.S. don't point non tech users to a mailing list like this one.. it only leads to trouble one way and another. Either they think they know what they thought the writer said, but they didn't understand that what he said wasn't what he meant, or they become deer in the headlights , and can't be budged from their "NO"! Never! position.. <shakes head>
almost makes one wish for the good old days when the Administrator told them to get their fingers off the keyboard and they did or died! ;)
-- _____________________________________ John Andersen
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The Monday 2006-12-25 at 01:14 -0500, John E. Perry wrote:
Just two problems: first, I took others' advice again to switch from Reiser to ext3fs,
You choose that advice instead of the advice to the contrary.
I just hope the deep bugs on this list keep talking about in Reiser don't come to my system.
What bugs?
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Monday 2006-12-25 at 01:14 -0500, John E. Perry wrote:
Just two problems: first, I took others' advice again to switch from Reiser to ext3fs,
You choose that advice instead of the advice to the contrary.
I just hope the deep bugs on this list keep talking about in Reiser don't come to my system.
What bugs?
My highly unqualified guess would be the bugs in reiser4, which isn't a part of any respected distribution anyway.. :)
On Mon, 2006-12-25 at 11:51 +0100, Anders Norrbring wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Monday 2006-12-25 at 01:14 -0500, John E. Perry wrote:
Just two problems: first, I took others' advice again to switch from Reiser to ext3fs,
You choose that advice instead of the advice to the contrary.
I just hope the deep bugs on this list keep talking about in Reiser don't come to my system.
What bugs?
My highly unqualified guess would be the bugs in reiser4, which isn't a part of any respected distribution anyway.. :)
I'm trying to remember where I saw Reiser4 as a disk option, and lately I've only been tinkering with SuSE and Ubuntu Dapper Drake (the install DVD that I have, has broken reiser3 utilities).
Anders Norrbring wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote: ...
What bugs?
My highly unqualified guess would be the bugs in reiser4, which isn't a part of any respected distribution anyway.. :)
My (at least equally unqualified guess) is the bugs in reiser3 that cause occasional partition corruption.
On Monday 25 December 2006 13:50, John E. Perry wrote:
Anders Norrbring wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote: ...
What bugs?
My highly unqualified guess would be the bugs in reiser4, which isn't a part of any respected distribution anyway.. :)
My (at least equally unqualified guess) is the bugs in reiser3 that cause occasional partition corruption.
Hasn't happened yet to me using 7.3 (I *think* I used reiserfs on that one), 8.2, 9.0, and now 9.3.
John E. Perry wrote:
Anders Norrbring wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote: ...
What bugs?
My highly unqualified guess would be the bugs in reiser4, which isn't a part of any respected distribution anyway.. :)
My (at least equally unqualified guess) is the bugs in reiser3 that cause occasional partition corruption.
I've been using SuSE Linux since 2000 or so, and heavily since 2004, both on my own systems (desktop, laptop and server), and the data centers where I consult. Except for some filesystem benchmarking tests, I've always run reiserfs everywhere. I've never lost data. The worst I've ever seen was the occasional reiserfsck when the power went out, but otherwise no problems of any kind. I'm not sure what bugs you are referring to, but I've certainly never heard of them, other than some urban legend type stories involving non-SuSE kernels and/or questionable hardware.
Eventually there may be clearly better choices, but there is certainly no reason at this point to rush into a filesystem switch.
Joe
Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Monday 2006-12-25 at 01:14 -0500, John E. Perry wrote:
Just two problems: first, I took others' advice again to switch from Reiser to ext3fs,
You choose that advice instead of the advice to the contrary.
Yes. Practically no one gave an unqualified "yes" to reiser3. The best I saw was "don't change without reason".
I just hope the deep bugs on this list keep talking about in Reiser don't come to my system.
What bugs?
Whatever it is that causes partitions to collapse occasionally. You wouldn't call that a bug?
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The Monday 2006-12-25 at 14:48 -0500, John E. Perry wrote:
You choose that advice instead of the advice to the contrary.
Yes. Practically no one gave an unqualified "yes" to reiser3. The best I saw was "don't change without reason".
I don't see any reason to change. And I would say the same to anybody using similar reasons to change from ext3 to reiser or xfs or any combination whatsoever.
I just hope the deep bugs on this list keep talking about in Reiser don't come to my system.
What bugs?
Whatever it is that causes partitions to collapse occasionally. You wouldn't call that a bug?
No.
If it were a bug, you would be reporting it to bugzilla to have it solved.
Collapse, like what? In normal use?
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Monday 2006-12-25 at 14:48 -0500, John E. Perry wrote:
You choose that advice instead of the advice to the contrary.
Yes. Practically no one gave an unqualified "yes" to reiser3. The best I saw was "don't change without reason".
I don't see any reason to change. And I would say the same to anybody using similar reasons to change from ext3 to reiser or xfs or any combination whatsoever.
I just hope the deep bugs on this list keep talking about in Reiser don't come to my system.
What bugs?
Whatever it is that causes partitions to collapse occasionally. You wouldn't call that a bug?
No.
If it were a bug, you would be reporting it to bugzilla to have it solved.
If I had something worthwhile to say, probably. Who to I say "my root partition suddenly became unavailable, and I had to restore it with fsck.reiser from my rescue cd, and I have no idea what the problem was"?
Collapse, like what? In normal use?
As I said before, after one of the zen updates, I rebooted, and the root partition was corrupt. fsck.reiser from the install cd printed hundreds of lines during the two stages of repair, which I did not try to write down, and which, as far as I know, are not preserved anywhere on the system.
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The Monday 2006-12-25 at 15:55 -0500, John E. Perry wrote:
If it were a bug, you would be reporting it to bugzilla to have it solved.
If I had something worthwhile to say, probably. Who to I say "my root partition suddenly became unavailable, and I had to restore it with fsck.reiser from my rescue cd, and I have no idea what the problem was"?
Collapse, like what? In normal use?
As I said before, after one of the zen updates, I rebooted, and the root partition was corrupt. fsck.reiser from the install cd printed hundreds of lines during the two stages of repair, which I did not try to write down, and which, as far as I know, are not preserved anywhere on the system.
That's not a bug, that was a corrupted filesystem, one of many in any filesystem type.
What is diferent in reiser is that it is more complex, and the recovery from complex breakdowns can't be done from the automatic boot script check.
And the filesystem was repaired fully, no? So everything going as it should be.
Not a bug.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
John E. Perry wrote:
Just two problems: first, I took others' advice again to switch from Reiser to ext3fs, but my home directory is too big to get onto cd's or dvd's, so I now have a system based on ext3fs except for the /home directory, which is still Reiser. I'm digging through the home directories so I can divide it onto several dvds, but it's going to take a while.
Since you're blowing away most of the system anyway, why not just create a new ext3 partition and copy /home to it. Then, when you install the new system, just mount that ext3 partition as /home. You can use a rescue CD to create the new partition and copy /home.
Incidentally, you may want to invest in an external USB hard drive. They're cheap these days and can hold a lot of data. I've got one here that's 160 GB. It currently contains a couple of generations of backup from two computers.
James Knott wrote:
John E. Perry wrote:
Just two problems: first, I took others' advice again to switch from Reiser to ext3fs, but my home directory is too big to get onto cd's or dvd's, so I now have a system based on ext3fs except for the /home directory, which is still Reiser. I'm digging through the home directories so I can divide it onto several dvds, but it's going to take a while.
Since you're blowing away most of the system anyway, why not just create a new ext3 partition and copy /home to it. Then, when you install the new system, just mount that ext3 partition as /home. You can use a rescue CD to create the new partition and copy /home.
THat's a possibility, but I'm already nervous about monkeying with partitions that have valuable data on them. And the / crash last week reinforces my nervousness.
Incidentally, you may want to invest in an external USB hard drive. They're cheap these days and can hold a lot of data. I've got one here that's 160 GB. It currently contains a couple of generations of backup from two computers.
Hmm. I blew off the tiny, hyperexpensive usb drives a couple of years ago, but haven't looked at them recently. That could work well. I had been reading up on nfs, thinking about connecting it to my laptop and using it to back up my data. I also made a quick try to get ftp working, but didn't succeed immediately, and never got back to it.
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The Monday 2006-12-25 at 15:08 -0500, John E. Perry wrote:
Incidentally, you may want to invest in an external USB hard drive. They're cheap these days and can hold a lot of data. I've got one here that's 160 GB. It currently contains a couple of generations of backup from two computers.
Hmm. I blew off the tiny, hyperexpensive usb drives a couple of years ago, but haven't looked at them recently. That could work well. I had been reading up on nfs, thinking about connecting it to my laptop and using it to back up my data. I also made a quick try to get ftp working, but didn't succeed immediately, and never got back to it.
You need another computer to use ftp or nfs. An usb disk is just another "internal" disk on the system, but physically external. It is transparent and slower, and very handy.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
On Monday 25 December 2006 12:30, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Monday 2006-12-25 at 15:08 -0500, John E. Perry wrote:
Incidentally, you may want to invest in an external USB hard drive. They're cheap these days and can hold a lot of data. I've got one here that's 160 GB. It currently contains a couple of generations of backup from two computers.
Hmm. I blew off the tiny, hyperexpensive usb drives a couple of years ago, but haven't looked at them recently. That could work well. I had been reading up on nfs, thinking about connecting it to my laptop and using it to back up my data. I also made a quick try to get ftp working, but didn't succeed immediately, and never got back to it.
You need another computer to use ftp or nfs. An usb disk is just another "internal" disk on the system, but physically external. It is transparent and slower, and very handy.
There are also now storage appliances that implement NFS and / or SMB/CIFS (accessed via Samba from Unix / Linux systems or via the built-in file sharing from Windows systems). These are basically stand-alone boxes with disks (often RAID arrays), a simple server computer and an Ethernet connection.
They're becoming pretty affordable on a per-gigabyte basis. They're really only an advantage when you've got multiple computers that need to access a single storage repository for some reason (shared publication or media libraries, e.g., or backups). To my knowledge, no other form of connectivity (FireWire, USB, eSATA, or SCSI) works to share a device among multiple computers, so you need the network and server component if you have multiple computers accessing the storage (and don't want to recable frequently).
I will be moving to a new home soon, and when I do, I think I'm going to add one of these to my setup, since I now have four separate computers all in active use whose backups I'd like to unify. Plus, I'd like to consolidate what is at the moment a very fragmented on-line library of technical papers, podcasts, ripped CDs, software downloads and other miscellany.
-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
Randall Schulz
Randall R Schulz wrote:
...
There are also now storage appliances that implement NFS and / or SMB/CIFS (accessed via Samba from Unix / Linux systems or via the built-in file sharing from Windows systems). These are basically stand-alone boxes with disks (often RAID arrays), a simple server computer and an Ethernet connection.
Be nice if I could afford it. A semi-employed electronics engineer 60+ years old has to watch his spending pretty carefully between contracts.
...Plus, I'd like to consolidate what is at the moment a very fragmented on-line library of technical papers, podcasts, ripped CDs, software downloads and other miscellany.
Exactly what I'm facing.
John E. Perry wrote:
Randall R Schulz wrote:
...
There are also now storage appliances that implement NFS and / or SMB/CIFS (accessed via Samba from Unix / Linux systems or via the built-in file sharing from Windows systems). These are basically stand-alone boxes with disks (often RAID arrays), a simple server computer and an Ethernet connection.
Be nice if I could afford it. A semi-employed electronics engineer 60+ years old has to watch his spending pretty carefully between contracts.
Those external hard drives I mentioned are fairly cheap. And you can always fire up an old computer with Linux and use it as a "server", to hold your backups.
On Mon December 25 2006 4:15 pm, John E. Perry scratched these words onto a coconut shell, hoping for an answer:
Randall R Schulz wrote:
...
There are also now storage appliances that implement NFS and / or SMB/CIFS (accessed via Samba from Unix / Linux systems or via the built-in file sharing from Windows systems). These are basically stand-alone boxes with disks (often RAID arrays), a simple server computer and an Ethernet connection.
Be nice if I could afford it. A semi-employed electronics engineer 60+ years old has to watch his spending pretty carefully between contracts.
I saw one of those w/ a terabyte of space on it for under $500US online . That is almost too good to pass up.. Tiger Direct I think, but don't quote me.
<Snip>
Carlos E. R. wrote:
... You need another computer to use ftp or nfs. An usb disk is just another "internal" disk on the system, but physically external. It is transparent and slower, and very handy.
I'm aware of all this. The computer that has all the stuff is my desktop; the computer I want to use for backup is the new laptop (already running 10.2 with ext3 filesystems).
On Monday 25 December 2006 13:07, John E. Perry wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
... You need another computer to use ftp or nfs. An usb disk is just another "internal" disk on the system, but physically external. It is transparent and slower, and very handy.
I'm aware of all this. The computer that has all the stuff is my desktop; the computer I want to use for backup is the new laptop (already running 10.2 with ext3 filesystems).
Do I understand that you want to back up _to_ a laptop? That seems rather odd. First of all, the disk in a laptop is far more likely to fail than one in a desktop system. Secondly, their capacity is still distinctly more limited than those of desktop or rack-mount systems, so using it as a backup might prove excessively limiting in terms of what or how much you can store. And you say this is a new laptop, so don't you want to actually use that new laptop _as_ a laptop? You know, portable computing and all that great stuff?
--
John Perry
Randall Schulz
Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Monday 25 December 2006 13:07, John E. Perry wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
... You need another computer to use ftp or nfs. An usb disk is just another "internal" disk on the system, but physically external. It is transparent and slower, and very handy.
I'm aware of all this. The computer that has all the stuff is my desktop; the computer I want to use for backup is the new laptop (already running 10.2 with ext3 filesystems).
Do I understand that you want to back up _to_ a laptop? That seems rather odd. First of all, the disk in a laptop is far more likely to fail than one in a desktop system. Secondly, their capacity is still distinctly more limited than those of desktop or rack-mount systems, so using it as a backup might prove excessively limiting in terms of what or how much you can store. And you say this is a new laptop, so don't you want to actually use that new laptop _as_ a laptop? You know, portable computing and all that great stuff?
Besides, all that extra data will make the laptop too heavy to carry. ;-)
Randall R Schulz wrote:
...
Do I understand that you want to back up _to_ a laptop? That seems rather odd. First of all, the disk in a laptop is far more likely to fail than one in a desktop system. ...
Again, I'm aware of all your objections. The laptop is a _new_ laptop, with a 120G disk; /home is 80G; the backup is temporary until I can get the desktop reformatted. Also, the laptop has a dvd writer, which the (5-year-old) desktop doesn't.
John E. Perry wrote:
James Knott wrote:
John E. Perry wrote:
Just two problems: first, I took others' advice again to switch from Reiser to ext3fs, but my home directory is too big to get onto cd's or dvd's, so I now have a system based on ext3fs except for the /home directory, which is still Reiser. I'm digging through the home directories so I can divide it onto several dvds, but it's going to take a while.
Since you're blowing away most of the system anyway, why not just create a new ext3 partition and copy /home to it. Then, when you install the new system, just mount that ext3 partition as /home. You can use a rescue CD to create the new partition and copy /home.
THat's a possibility, but I'm already nervous about monkeying with partitions that have valuable data on them. And the / crash last week reinforces my nervousness.
Incidentally, you may want to invest in an external USB hard drive. They're cheap these days and can hold a lot of data. I've got one here that's 160 GB. It currently contains a couple of generations of backup from two computers.
Hmm. I blew off the tiny, hyperexpensive usb drives a couple of years ago, but haven't looked at them recently. That could work well. I had been reading up on nfs, thinking about connecting it to my laptop and using it to back up my data. I also made a quick try to get ftp working, but didn't succeed immediately, and never got back to it.
That 160 GB drive is a regular IDE hard drive in an external case with USB 2 interface. Some models also support Firewire or SATA. Hard drive space is cheap these days and those external cases aren't very expensive either. One benefit is that you can back up your data and then physically remove it from the vicinity of your computer, so should you have a fire or other disaster, your data can be easily recovered onto a new system.
John wrote:
I'll tell you what this patent protection did for me.
Just as an opener: I think you jumped in head-first here because of some misconceived angst caused by the words Patent" and "Microsoft".
I had a nearly fully functioning SUSE 10.0 system. I never could get the nVidia driver to install and work for 3D video, although it worked fine in SUSE 9.2 Professional.
I, like many, many others, have had no problems with using the nVidia drivers in SuSe. There was a slight huccup some time ago with one version of the drivers provided by nVidia but that was all. If you had problems then you should have come back to this forum and/or nVidia and your problems would have been resolved. Why didn't you ask for help instead of stewing for all this time over this non-existent problem?
I made the mistake of upgrading to openSUSE 10.2 and now I'm regretting it big time. Mplayer was uninstalled by the upgrade, and none of my multimedia apps work cause of file format patents, from what I can tell by the big warning about patents on a Novell web page. I never saw or heard a peep out of Novell about patents before this Microsoft "deal". I think Novell got shafted by Microsoft. Time will tell, especially if MS ends up acquiring Red Hat (heaven forbid the financial experts are wrong).
Why in the heck did openSUSE 10.2 have to remove a perfectly functioning Mplayer and leave me with a broken Kaffeine (which worked great before) and broken Noatun and broken XMMS, etc. I can't play any video formats now or burn any CDs. This is really pitiful.
You say above that you "had a nearly fully functioning SUSE 10.0 system" and that you "never saw of heard a peep out of Novell about patents before this Microsoft "deal"".
Well, and I can be corrected about this, but you did hear about patents - and you heard it when you were insalling SuSE10.0 because it was then that the ability to play DVDs was removed from SuSE because of this 'patent' problem. Don't you remember having to go hunting for the files needed to be able to view DVDs because they were no longer included on the CDs or DVD from SuSE?
Now, as a matter of fact, (BTW I am running 10.2 which I finally installed on my "main" system several days ago), I never used to use kaffeine as my player of anything - I thought it was a "toy" - and used xine for my DVD viewing and, I think, I used amarok when I did (once in a blue moon) want to play an audio CD, but a yesterday I discovered the full power of kaffeine when I found that it would make my new dvb card work "out of the box". I also discovered that I could watch DVDs using it (I watched, again, the original *The Planet of the Apes* with Heston last night) and this morning played one of my favourite audio CDs, Credence Clearwater Revival.
So why are you saying that kaffeine is broken? It's not.
Oh, Mplayer I also have installed but now that I discovered the beauty of kaffeine I don't think I'll be using Mplayer. Mplayer, BTW, is not included on the downloadable CDs or the DVD for 10.2 because of disc space as I understand it but should be on the boxed 10.2 (people can correct me about this),
Re burning CD or DVDs. I have burnt several DVDs and 10 CDs using k3b in 10.2. Why can't you? I don't know.
I'm really disgusted with what this upgrade has done. And why so many file updating programs? There's Yast, Yum, Smart, openSUSE Update, Synaptic, and a few more I can't remember at the moment. How in the world is a Windows user ever gonna convert and deal with so many choices? The strangest thing of all is how the documentation compares Smart to Yast and Yum and shows how superior it is to both. Then why include Yast and Yum anymore? Just provide Smart package manager and be done with it. Package management in Linux leaves a lot to be desired, compared to Windows Add/Remove Program and Setup programs.
Ah, now you have come up with something which I think is a damn disgrace for Novell and SuSE- this stupidity about the way the system is being updated/upgraded. I gave away trying to fight the bungling and only use smart which works with minor, occasional hiccups which are resolved quite often in a matter of minutes by the competent team at labix.
Is Linux desktop ready for prime time? I wish, but unfortunately, that's not the present situation.
Almost there.
Disgruntled openSUSE user
Don't let the self-inflicted angst cloud your judgement :-) .
Cheers.
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 14:36 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:
John wrote: Mplayer, BTW, is not included on the downloadable CDs or the DVD for 10.2 because of disc space as I understand it but should be on the boxed 10.2 (people can correct me about this),
Well, gee, Basil...if they ever deliver 10.2 here in the states, I'd be happy to advise on that!
As for relying on Packman et al to complete the picture on multimedia apps...that's been going on for as long as I can remember. No big deal, just a hastle.
Merry Christmas to all!
Tom Patton wrote:
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 14:36 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:
John wrote: Mplayer, BTW, is not included on the downloadable CDs or the DVD for 10.2 because of disc space as I understand it but should be on the boxed 10.2 (people can correct me about this),
Well, gee, Basil...if they ever deliver 10.2 here in the states, I'd be happy to advise on that!
But...
http://shop.novell.com/servlet/ControllerServlet?Action=DisplayPage&Env=...
You mean that you still cannot get it even after ordering it from Novell?
As for relying on Packman et al to complete the picture on multimedia apps...that's been going on for as long as I can remember. No big deal, just a hastle.
Yes, been like this for a while now. A pain but thankfully can be overcome.
Merry Christmas to all!
And a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year!
Cheers.
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 16:18 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:
Tom Patton wrote:
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 14:36 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:
But...
http://shop.novell.com/servlet/ControllerServlet?Action=DisplayPage&Env=...
You mean that you still cannot get it even after ordering it from Novell?
I started the thread "pre-order shipping yet?" ... as far as I and a couple others have determined, no one has received it yet in the states. Digital River emailed me that it is on backorder. I ordered on the 12th of Dec from the Novell site! DR gave me no estimate on arrival...:(
I guess Santa's getting older and couldn't handle the load...
Tom Patton wrote:
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 16:18 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:
Tom Patton wrote:
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 14:36 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:
But...
http://shop.novell.com/servlet/ControllerServlet?Action=DisplayPage&Env=...
You mean that you still cannot get it even after ordering it from Novell?
I started the thread "pre-order shipping yet?" ... as far as I and a couple others have determined, no one has received it yet in the states. Digital River emailed me that it is on backorder. I ordered on the 12th of Dec from the Novell site! DR gave me no estimate on arrival...:(
I guess Santa's getting older and couldn't handle the load...
But this is disgraceful!
I would be suggesting getting in touch with some of the hacks on news sites like TheInquirer et alia and complaining about this non-availability of boxed 10.2. That should stir Novell into action. No wonder Novell became a non-entity some 12 years ago.
Sheesh! Sorry, but this really grates me :-( .
Cheers.
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 19:04 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:
Tom Patton wrote:
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 16:18 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:
Tom Patton wrote:
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 14:36 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:
But...
http://shop.novell.com/servlet/ControllerServlet?Action=DisplayPage&Env=...
You mean that you still cannot get it even after ordering it from Novell?
I started the thread "pre-order shipping yet?" ... as far as I and a couple others have determined, no one has received it yet in the states. Digital River emailed me that it is on backorder. I ordered on the 12th of Dec from the Novell site! DR gave me no estimate on arrival...:(
I guess Santa's getting older and couldn't handle the load...
But this is disgraceful!
I would be suggesting getting in touch with some of the hacks on news sites like TheInquirer et alia and complaining about this non-availability of boxed 10.2. That should stir Novell into action. No wonder Novell became a non-entity some 12 years ago.
Sheesh! Sorry, but this really grates me :-( .
Cheers.
Well, I work for the "mainstream Media", and things like this don't interest them. Unless, as I mused in the other thread, it is a delay tactic brought about by tne MS-Novell deal. I'll ask DigitalRiver if they have shipped ANY to the US, and resume the other thread.
I built a Christmas gift with 9.3, so while this irritates me, it isn't a show stopper!
Sorry if we diverted this thread any...
On Sunday 24 December 2006 03:04, Basil Chupin wrote:
I guess Santa's getting older and couldn't handle the load...
But this is disgraceful!
I would be suggesting getting in touch with some of the hacks on news sites like TheInquirer et alia and complaining about this non-availability of boxed 10.2. That should stir Novell into action. No wonder Novell became a non-entity some 12 years ago.
Sheesh! Sorry, but this really grates me :-( .
Yup... I ordered on the 12th too and have received nothing from DigitalRiver, email or otherwise other than an order acknowledge.
In the time since the order, I have switched to Kubuntu and I doubt I will even use the package if/when it arrives. But long live Novell.... <not>
* Bruce Marshall bmarsh@bmarsh.com [12-24-06 11:07]:
Yup... I ordered on the 12th too and have received nothing from DigitalRiver, email or otherwise other than an order acknowledge.
In the time since the order, I have switched to Kubuntu and I doubt I will even use the package if/when it arrives. But long live Novell.... <not>
If you feel that way, and apparently you do considering you have switched distros, LEAVE. Do not hang around here just to bash openSUSE, that is the definition of a troll and the function that you are filling!
On Sunday 24 December 2006 11:52, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Bruce Marshall bmarsh@bmarsh.com [12-24-06 11:07]:
Yup... I ordered on the 12th too and have received nothing from DigitalRiver, email or otherwise other than an order acknowledge.
In the time since the order, I have switched to Kubuntu and I doubt I will even use the package if/when it arrives. But long live Novell.... <not>
If you feel that way, and apparently you do considering you have switched distros, LEAVE. Do not hang around here just to bash openSUSE, that is the definition of a troll and the function that you are filling!
As always.. You're a bundle of joy.
Note well: 1) I will stay as longer as I like, not withstanding your well wishes.
2) I am still a supporter of Novell (as a purchaser) until such time as 10.3 comes out. (if it ever does)
3) This forum really *should* be open to anyone running linux or thinking of running linux as long as they don't troll or cause problems. I don't think my statement above comes even close to either condition.
4) I have still been contributing to this list in a constructive way answering problems people have with SuSE. (unlike your response above)
5) I am still running 10.1 on three machines in this household, so I have a perfect right to be here.
6) You're a snot!! Neener, Neener, Neener
And go ahead and PLONK me please.... I don't wish to read any responses to my posts from you.
On Sunday 24 December 2006 08:13, Bruce Marshall wrote:
On Sunday 24 December 2006 11:52, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Bruce Marshall bmarsh@bmarsh.com [12-24-06 11:07]:
Yup... I ordered on the 12th too and have received nothing from DigitalRiver, email or otherwise other than an order acknowledge.
In the time since the order, I have switched to Kubuntu and I doubt I will even use the package if/when it arrives. But long live Novell.... <not>
If you feel that way, and apparently you do considering you have switched distros, LEAVE. Do not hang around here just to bash openSUSE, that is the definition of a troll and the function that you are filling!
As always.. You're a bundle of joy.
To get all the intentionally crippled packages in Ubuntu (or Kubuntu) requires you to add repositories as well.
I've found this site on kde-apps.org quite usefull. It has a single script that adds the necessary repositories and then upgrades kubuntu so that it:
Adds folders to keep you organized, Gives you what you need to do everyday, Installs iTunes music store, Installs AIM/Yahoo/MSN/Google compatible Instant Messaging program. Allows you to play DVDs and MP3s. Gives you a good media player that plays ANYTHING. Can install 3D graphics drivers and/or 3D special effects.
Because, you see, Ubuntu/Kubuntu have the same legal issues as Novell, and not everything works there either.
On Sun December 24 2006 11:52 am, Patrick Shanahan scratched these words onto a coconut shell, hoping for an answer:
- Bruce Marshall bmarsh@bmarsh.com [12-24-06 11:07]:
Yup... I ordered on the 12th too and have received nothing from DigitalRiver, email or otherwise other than an order acknowledge.
In the time since the order, I have switched to Kubuntu and I doubt I will even use the package if/when it arrives. But long live Novell.... <not>
If you feel that way, and apparently you do considering you have switched distros, LEAVE. Do not hang around here just to bash openSUSE, that is the definition of a troll and the function that you are filling!
Dammit, I guess Chris' "Troll Remover" (TM) left w/ him ... Wonder if we can re-engineer it for Henne . It might make a nice 12th night gift GD&R ( very very fast )
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The Saturday 2006-12-23 at 19:14 -0600, John wrote:
I'll tell you what this patent protection did for me.
I had a nearly fully functioning SUSE 10.0 system. I never could get the nVidia driver to install and work for 3D video, although it worked fine in SUSE 9.2 Professional.
I made the mistake of upgrading to openSUSE 10.2 and now I'm regretting it big time. Mplayer was uninstalled by the upgrade, and none of my multimedia apps work cause of file format patents, from what I can tell by the big warning about patents on a Novell web page. I never saw or
Sigh....
This has always been so, even before SuSE 9.2. Multimedia apps from SuSE are always limited in capacity to what is legally possible. Ie, they have always removed the capacities for things that are patented or which have a non clear license. It has always been so. You can check their comments inside the rpms and see for yourself.
If you want to bypass those licenses, then you are on your own, as you have always been.
Those things were updated to a newer versions, because that's what you told the install program to do. They are newer versions, but limited. Same thing as has been done for years and versions of SuSE, even before Novell.
And the solutions are what have always been. But as you are leaving, goodbye.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
Carlos E. R. wrote:
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The Saturday 2006-12-23 at 19:14 -0600, John wrote:
I'll tell you what this patent protection did for me.
[pruned]
And the solutions are what have always been. But as you are leaving, goodbye.
Like the other poster you have come to the wrong conclusion about John's intentions :-) .
John was simply responding to an 'oldish' post which had "Goodbye to suse" as the subject. It isn't John's Subject - it's someone else's to which he (finally) decided to respond to.
John has been stewing for a long time over his problems with getting the nVidia driver(s) to work and decided at last to "let loose" - but he is not leaving :-) .
Cheers.
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The Sunday 2006-12-24 at 15:44 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:
...
And the solutions are what have always been. But as you are leaving, goodbye.
Like the other poster you have come to the wrong conclusion about John's intentions :-) .
:-?
John was simply responding to an 'oldish' post which had "Goodbye to suse" as the subject. It isn't John's Subject - it's someone else's to which he (finally) decided to respond to.
John has been stewing for a long time over his problems with getting the nVidia driver(s) to work and decided at last to "let loose" - but he is not leaving :-) .
Ah, I see...
He was answering to an email dated 13 Nov! That's over a month ago, I had that mail on another folder, so his mail appeared as the first one of new, broken thread. He missled me.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
Ah, I see...
He was answering to an email dated 13 Nov! That's over a month ago, I had that mail on another folder, so his mail appeared as the first one of new, broken thread. He missled me.
I guess it was to difficult to change the topic and make a new post
On Sat, 23 Dec 2006, John wrote:
I made the mistake of upgrading to openSUSE 10.2 and now I'm regretting it big time. Mplayer was uninstalled by the upgrade, and none of my multimedia apps work cause of file format patents, from what I can tell by the big warning about patents on a Novell web page. I never saw or heard a peep out of Novell about patents before this Microsoft "deal". I think Novell got shafted by Microsoft. Time will tell, especially if MS ends up acquiring Red Hat (heaven forbid the financial experts are wrong).
Why in the heck did openSUSE 10.2 have to remove a perfectly functioning Mplayer and leave me with a broken Kaffeine (which worked great before) and broken Noatun and broken XMMS, etc. I can't play any video formats now or burn any CDs. This is really pitiful.
Because you did not add the repo. It is your mistake. I did upgrades to 3 10.0 and 8 10.1 systems. All I had to do was have all the additional repos and everything was upgraded. I had downloaded everything from the ftp. So my install had the following.
198.60.105.2/local/suse/suse/i386/10.2/repo/oss 198.60.105.2/local/suse/suse/i386/10.2/repo/non-oss 198.60.105.2/local/suse/suse/i386/10.2/repo/src-oss 198.60.105.2/local/suse/suse/i386/10.2/repo/src-non-oss 198.60.105.2/local/suse/suse/i386/10.2/repo/packman 198.60.105.2/local/suse/suse/i386/10.2/repo/guru 198.60.105.2/local/suse/suse/i386/upgrade/10.2
You have to all all repo's you used like guru or packmam. The packman above was a ftp from
packman.unixheads.com/pub/suse/10.2
You have to add all the repo's to get a complete upraded. You would need a similar to install fresh you 10.0 or 10.1. If you do not have all your installation sources then they may be deleted.
I'm really disgusted with what this upgrade has done. And why so many file updating programs? There's Yast, Yum, Smart, openSUSE Update, Synaptic, and a few more I can't remember at the moment. How in the world is a Windows user ever gonna convert and deal with so many choices? The strangest thing of all is how the documentation compares Smart to Yast and Yum and shows how superior it is to both. Then why include Yast and Yum anymore? Just provide Smart package manager and be done with it. Package management in Linux leaves a lot to be desired, compared to Windows Add/Remove Program and Setup programs.
Your own fault because you did not have all repo's needed.
-- Boyd Gerber gerberb@zenez.com ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047
On Saturday 23 December 2006 17:14, John wrote:
I'll tell you what this patent protection did for me.
I had a nearly fully functioning SUSE 10.0 system. I never could get the nVidia driver to install and work for 3D video, although it worked fine in SUSE 9.2 Professional.
Sounds like a personal problem to me....PEBCEK anyone?
I made the mistake of upgrading to openSUSE 10.2 and now I'm regretting it big time. Mplayer was uninstalled by the upgrade, and none of my multimedia apps work cause of file format patents, from what I can tell by the big warning about patents on a Novell web page. I never saw or heard a peep out of Novell about patents before this Microsoft "deal". I think Novell got shafted by Microsoft. Time will tell, especially if MS ends up acquiring Red Hat (heaven forbid the financial experts are wrong).
Sigh, another crossover loser from COLA...
...though I agree that Novell should show some cajones and provide multimedia in their system like Xandros does, it really isn't a big deal. I mean, take a stock verson of WinXP or Vista and see what happens when you stick a commercial Region 1 DVD in.
<insert Jepardy music here>
As anyone can tell you, getting popular codes to play multimedia takes about five minutes of your time.
http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/suse/desk_dvd_lg.jpg
http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/suse/desktop+mp3.jpg
http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/suse/2006/happyfeet1.jpg
This has been true of any version since I started using SUSE during 9.1 days.
Why in the heck did openSUSE 10.2 have to remove a perfectly functioning Mplayer and leave me with a broken Kaffeine (which worked great before) and broken Noatun and broken XMMS, etc. I can't play any video formats now or burn any CDs. This is really pitiful.
Again, PEBCEK - you screwed up.
Too bad...
..so sorry.
I'm really disgusted with what this upgrade has done. And why so many file updating programs? There's Yast, Yum, Smart, openSUSE Update, Synaptic, and a few more I can't remember at the moment. How in the world is a Windows user ever gonna convert and deal with so many choices?
I did.
My mom did.
My wife is in the process.
Not too hard.
The strangest thing of all is how the documentation compares Smart to Yast and Yum and shows how superior it is to both. Then why include Yast and Yum anymore? Just provide Smart package manager and be done with it. Package management in Linux leaves a lot to be desired, compared to Windows Add/Remove Program and Setup programs.
Linux = choices.
Hey, some people even like the command line - or worse - Gnome. What can I say?
Is Windows ready for prime time? I wish, but unfortunately, that's not the present situation.
fixx0red your post.
On Sun, 2006-12-24 at 13:26 -0800, Kai Ponte wrote:
On Saturday 23 December 2006 17:14, John wrote:
Well said, Kai.
Merry Christmas to all!
On Monday 13 November 2006 14:00, SheridanJ West wrote:
Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
That's perfectly valid point of view. Some comments from Bruce: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=206202&cid=16815242
But, in the end, that's the way even OSS business is done these days. RH is hardly any better. Choose your poison.
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Janne Karhunen wrote:
On Monday 13 November 2006 14:00, SheridanJ West wrote:
Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
That's perfectly valid point of view. Some comments from Bruce: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=206202&cid=16815242
Well Bruce has been a big FUD-throwing troll about this since a few days.
I wonder what qualifies him in any way to comment about it... Since when does being a Debian fanboy count ?
cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\ pascal.bleser@skynet.be guru@unixtech.be __v The more things change, the more they stay insane.
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* Pascal Bleser pascal.bleser@skynet.be [11-13-06 18:49]:
Well Bruce has been a big FUD-throwing troll about this since a few days.
I wonder what qualifies him in any way to comment about it... Since when does being a Debian fanboy count ?
Perhaps he has moved to contract law?
I hate to break this to everybody, but this isn't about you and what you run at home. This is about the future of linux in the enterprise. Novell has attorneys just like MS, and believe me, this wasn't entered in to blindly by either side. Just to accommodate all the conspiracy theorists out there: Say Microsoft decides to sue. Maybe they have just enough patent infringement evidence to bring a lawsuit, maybe they don't. Maybe they don't care. What they do have is deep enough pockets to bring long extended lawsuits that drain huge amounts of money from linux distros, something Novell is now immune to for five years. Remember, IBM doesn't own a linux distro (although they too have thrown money behind Novell) and neither does Oracle, so it's not like there are really deep pockets out there to support Linux. During that time, if a company wants to use linux, MS has said it is going to play nice with SuSE, and right now, only SuSE. How can that be bad for Novell? I keep reading about SCO, well SCO is about to go broke because they aren't making a whole lot of money, and the lawsuits they brought are draining what little financial resources they do have. As for the beginning of my statement, can you imagine a major company saying "We are going to standardize on Ubuntu in our enterprise." If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you. There are two major players in enterprise Linux, SuSE and RedHat, and RedHat has already said their interest lies in the server-side of things, not the desktop, so that leaves Novell. Instead of being so pissed off, be happy that a company might get it's Linux foot in the door. It's the beginning of what Linux people have been hoping for.
On 11/13/2006 at 7:00 AM, "SheridanJ West"
sheridanj.west@gmail.com wrote:
I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this mailing list (before it renamed). For the record i was waiting 10.2 and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil
borg
persons.
Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
So I'm moving to new distro. Whether suse/novell consider us a
hobby
user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now. I can do better and mod perl 2 excites me.
So thank you once again and goodbye.
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I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this mailing list (before it renamed). For the record i was waiting 10.2 and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg persons.
Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
So I'm moving to new distro. Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now. I can do better and mod perl 2 excites me.
So thank you once again and goodbye.
I'm still torn whether Novells decision was a good or bad choice.
On the one hand Novell will receive lots of money from Microsoft which they can and hopefully will invest in good developers to increase the quality of SuSE and open source projects.
On the other hand there's this awkward aftertaste that Novell has a deal with the "devil". I wouldn't be surprised if Novell more and more will use Mono for their tools, as a reward to the deal. I don't think this would be a good idea because .NET is a product by Microsoft for which they own all patents and copyrights. They could easily shut down projects like Mono all of a sudden if they wanted to!
I know these are (wild) speculations but if I have the feeling that Microsoft is somehow influencing the roadmap of (Open)SuSE in future I probably will think about switching the distribution! --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 11/13/06, SheridanJ West sheridanj.west@gmail.com wrote:
I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this mailing list (before it renamed). For the record i was waiting 10.2 and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg persons.
Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
So I'm moving to new distro. Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now. I can do better and mod perl 2 excites me.
So thank you once again and goodbye.
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I have similar inclinations as you. However, you do need to be practical. Meaning if there are certain apps that require SUSE or you are used to using SUSE, then just use the OpenSUSE. But whatever you do, do not buy boxed versions. Do not suggest to anyone to buy boxed. Do not suggest or recommend the enterprise versions at all. What I have started to do is, if someone asks me for my thoughts on SUSE, I just lie and say "I have personally found that it doesn't work as well as <insert other distro here>. But your mileage may vary." You can get away with stuff like that. All network environments are different and they all have their peciuliarities.
If there is something that is making you stick with SUSE, then just keep using but don't send any money or help in any way. Waint until you actiually see concrete detrimental effects on open source that MS may instigate. Trust me, you will find out about it if it does happen.
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 10:01:36 -0500, "JJ Gitties" jj.gitties@gmail.com wrote:
[snip]
the enterprise versions at all. What I have started to do is, if someone asks me for my thoughts on SUSE, I just lie and say "I have personally found that it doesn't work as well as <insert other distro here>. But your mileage may vary." You can get away with stuff like that. All network environments are different and they all have their peciuliarities.
You lie? Wow this tells me loads about you right there. How so unprofessional. I mean its one thing to not like some software, or a company, but to actually lie about its performance or its merits. Wow.
Well at least Novell, though legally obligated to, is releasing details of their contract. I am guessing that anyone you deal with has no idea that you will just lie about things.
Dang. I am amazed.
Michael
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On Monday November 13 2006 10:08 am, Michael Letourneau wrote:
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 10:01:36 -0500, "JJ Gitties" jj.gitties@gmail.com wrote:
the enterprise versions at all. What I have started to do is, if someone asks me for my thoughts on SUSE, I just lie and say "I have personally found that it doesn't work as well as <insert other distro here>. But your mileage may vary." You can get away with stuff like that. All network environments are different and they all have their peciuliarities.
You lie? Wow this tells me loads about you right there. How so unprofessional. I mean its one thing to not like some software, or a company, but to actually lie about its performance or its merits. Wow.
Well at least Novell, though legally obligated to, is releasing details of their contract. I am guessing that anyone you deal with has no idea that you will just lie about things.
Dang. I am amazed.
Michael
For JJ, dishonesty is the best policy. Sounds very Microsoft-ish to "market" something in that manner...
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On 11/13/06, Stan Glasoe srglasoe@comcast.net wrote:
For JJ, dishonesty is the best policy. Sounds very Microsoft-ish to "market" something in that manner...
It's my form of protest. If you read Samba groups open letter to Novell (it's been circulating in the net media today), i think they perfectly express much better than me why I am so against what Novell did. In my books, it's perfectly find to be a member of the community and be pissed.
* JJ Gitties jj.gitties@gmail.com [11-13-06 16:36]:
It's my form of protest. If you read Samba groups open letter to Novell (it's been circulating in the net media today), i think they perfectly express much better than me why I am so against what Novell did. In my books, it's perfectly find to be a member of the community and be pissed.
noted for posterity. May we now move on, PLEASE?
On Mon, 2006-11-13 at 16:34 -0500, JJ Gitties wrote:
On 11/13/06, Stan Glasoe srglasoe@comcast.net wrote: For JJ, dishonesty is the best policy. Sounds very Microsoft-ish to "market" something in that manner...
It's my form of protest. If you read Samba groups open letter to Novell (it's been circulating in the net media today), i think they perfectly express much better than me why I am so against what Novell did. In my books, it's perfectly find to be a member of the community and be pissed.
-- jjgitties,
"*We* need to convince OpenSUSE to fork, or let 'em die. To bad, it is a wonderful Distro. But their parent company is NOT our friend."
I agree, i like to see the feed back in the group to see how the community is taking it.
BTW, HP/Compaq is a large company that offers Linux indemnification, just like Novell does, but Novell is smaller and it used its patent portfolio as barter (against MS) to get such indemnifaction. HP also LOVES MS, sells millions of their OS's (and other product), and when ever you by HP/Compaq, you generate HP profit, that goes to selling more MS OS's, and HP is good to the Linux community too, just like Novell, HP sponsors Linux directly, see the exposure they get on www.linux.org for donating the servers for Linux. Better not buy any HP product, printer, servers, .... they are evil MS sympathizers!!! Lets see, so is Dell, IBM, AMD, TYAN, INTEL, ASUS, so is (...... insert name of just about every company here. ....) .... so i ask my self, why is Novell being singled out, to top it all off, they have helped out Linux/FLOSS more then most, to bad people don't understand how a patent portfolio barter is, and how it has nothing to do with the GPL , its just bartered indemnification.
I guess the most significant thing about this MS/Novell announcement is it shows that their are many Linux users (community) that when it comes to the Fud'ster meter, make Ballmer look like a mute, even on a good day, which is a scary thought, and really makes the community look bad.
-tl
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ted leslie wrote: ...
I guess the most significant thing about this MS/Novell announcement is it shows that their are many Linux users (community) that when it comes to the Fud'ster meter, make Ballmer look like a mute, even on a good day, which is a scary thought, and really makes the community look bad.
Indeed. Bruce Perens is MS's new SCO, not Novell.
- -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\ pascal.bleser@skynet.be guru@unixtech.be __v The more things change, the more they stay insane.
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On 11/13/06, ted leslie tleslie@tcn.net wrote:
I agree, i like to see the feed back in the group to see how the community is taking it.
Not in this group buddy. Over here the lemmings prefer to stay focused and keep it a "team effort" as they jump off the cliff.
On Mon, 2006-11-13 at 10:01 -0500, JJ Gitties wrote:
On 11/13/06, SheridanJ West sheridanj.west@gmail.com wrote: I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this mailing list (before it renamed). For the record i was waiting 10.2 and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg persons.
Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money' So I'm moving to new distro. Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i signed on with Suse before Novell bought it. While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now. I can do better and mod perl 2 excites me. So thank you once again and goodbye.
Bla Bla Bla Bla.
Do we have an opensuse-ot list for this stuff.
http://en.opensuse.org/Opensuse_mailing_list_netiquette
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into electronic streams flowing thru the cosmos On Monday 13 November 2006 11:22 am, Kenneth Schneider wrote: <snip>
So thank you once again and goodbye.Bla Bla Bla Bla.
Do we have an opensuse-ot list for this stuff.
nope the suse -OT list is still suse-ot@suse.com at least for today..
Henne, are you going to more it to Opensuse servers and nomenclature or ???
Hi All,
I have this doubt, where I have two local drives with tnfs partitions, I know, is not advisable to write to them using Linux, but my understanding about that rule, is that applies to Linux files being written unto ntfs, does the same applies if I have to ntfs partitions and I want to transfer data from one to the other while I am on a live cd/dvd?
Thanks
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On Mon, 13 Nov 2006, Jose wrote:
I have this doubt, where I have two local drives with tnfs partitions, I know, is not advisable to write to them using Linux, but my understanding about that rule, is that applies to Linux files being written unto ntfs, does the same applies if I have to ntfs partitions and I want to transfer data from one to the other while I am on a live cd/dvd?
Take a look at http://sourceforge.net/projects/linux-ntfs/
I am using ntfs-3g and it works great. I loaded the kernal module for openSUSE 10.1 and installed the latest BETA from the end of October 2006. The site was udated I think on the 12 Nov 2006.
Good Luck,
-- Boyd Gerber gerberb@zenez.com ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
At least get your facts right before you make a decision
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS4633960249.html http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS7235986827.html http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS4287912423.html http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS4685037869.html http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061102175508403 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061107194320461 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061112171106871
Here are several articles with positive and negative spins on the deal.
I for one don't like companies that do deals with MS as they almost always get the short end of the stick. On the other hand, Suse isn't making great gains against Red Hat yet either and they are a business. Sometimes you make deals because you need to today. I hope in 5 years we can look back at the deal and say that Novell and the Linux community got as much out of the deal as MS.
I really think MS is more interested in Xen then anything else. And this is their first step in getting in with the Xen crowed to eventually run it with Vista. I don't have a problem with that as long as they put their fair share of resource toward the technology.
The best way to change a communist country is to make capitalists out of them. The best way to make MS a good software citizen is for them to embrace the ideas behind open source software. The more they use the more MS has to change its ways.
SheridanJ West wrote:
I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this mailing list (before it renamed). For the record i was waiting 10.2 and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg persons.
Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
So I'm moving to new distro. Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now. I can do better and mod perl 2 excites me.
So thank you once again and goodbye.
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