Somewhere between 6.0 and 6.4 I played with Mandrake for awhile. Although I'mm not interested in discussing the general pros and cons between Mandrake and SuSE I would like to bring up a difference in their communities with respect to RPM. Mandrake has a very active user contributed RPM compiling project. You only have to look on rpmfind.net and you can see that usually Mandrake has the most up-to-date RPM's available. It was whilst being involved in this that I learnt to make rpms from srcrpms using Mandrake's very clear HOW-TO. SuSE does a wonderful job of making RPM's available to its' users for a wide range of programs. But this really isn't enough. Redhat based RPMs are ubiquitous. New users to SuSE all too easily can end up downloading the wrong RPM (witness Ron Sinclair's recent problem with quanta) and then get frustrated. To change this situation we all need to contribute by taking the miscellaneous RPMs that we build in the course of the daily use of our systems and upload them to rpmfind.net etc. Of course sometimes because of the individual nature of everybody's systems someone is going to download an rpm and it isn't going to run; but that is still better than not having a suse rpm at all. To make this work SuSE needs to take the initiative and write some guidelines for newbies to follow and publish this in a prominent position on their website, in the installed docs and in their manuals. I think that this would have a very positive effect on the useability and accessibility (excuse the marketing speak) of the SuSE distribution. What does everybody else think? Regards, Jethro
Jethro Cramp wrote:
Somewhere between 6.0 and 6.4 I played with Mandrake for awhile. Although I'mm not interested in discussing the general pros and cons between Mandrake and SuSE I would like to bring up a difference in their communities with respect to RPM.
Mandrake has a very active user contributed RPM compiling project. You only have to look on rpmfind.net and you can see that usually Mandrake has the most up-to-date RPM's available. It was whilst being involved in this that I learnt to make rpms from srcrpms using Mandrake's very clear HOW-TO.
SuSE does a wonderful job of making RPM's available to its' users for a wide range of programs. But this really isn't enough. Redhat based RPMs are ubiquitous. New users to SuSE all too easily can end up downloading the wrong RPM (witness Ron Sinclair's recent problem with quanta) and then get frustrated. To change this situation we all need to contribute by taking the miscellaneous RPMs that we build in the course of the daily use of our systems and upload them to rpmfind.net etc.
Of course sometimes because of the individual nature of everybody's systems someone is going to download an rpm and it isn't going to run; but that is still better than not having a suse rpm at all.
To make this work SuSE needs to take the initiative and write some guidelines for newbies to follow and publish this in a prominent position on their website, in the installed docs and in their manuals. I think that this would have a very positive effect on the useability and accessibility (excuse the marketing speak) of the SuSE distribution.
What does everybody else think?
Jethro, I think you have some points there. I wondered a few times how on earth a rpm is generated, how the files get in, all the lot. It never bothered me so much to look round and dig for docs. I also hope that one day all this will be history, that you can fetch any rpm and install it on any system. Another thing worth fighting for. ;-) Juergen
Regards,
Jethro
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On Friday 09 March 2001 10:22, Jethro Cramp wrote:
To make this work SuSE needs to take the initiative and write some guidelines for newbies to follow and publish this in a prominent position on their website, in the installed docs and in their manuals. I think that this would have a very positive effect on the useability and accessibility (excuse the marketing speak) of the SuSE distribution.
What does everybody else think?
Regards,
Jethro Jethro,
Ahm, perhaps SuSE could produce a book that gives a system level and component level description of their product. This book might also describe the basics of working with gcc, configure, make, etc. It should probably also have a basic description of how the kernel works, and how modules work in conjunction with the kernel. Perhaps a bit of discussion of how hardware dirvers work, and how they are written would be useful as well. Sample code for 'toy' implementation in these various areas would also be of interest. Of course there should be a section describing how to work with RPMs in the SuSE environment in such a way as to produce compatable RPM packages. In order to fill the gap between now and the time such a book might be completed, it could be released in sections to the portal. This would give the advantage of aquiering feedback as the product matures. I migh even suggest a title for the book _Juggling Knives_ *Hacking SuSE, without Hacking Yourself* or something like that. You are correct about Mandrake being very community oriented. I'm sure there are downsided to this as well, and I would like to hear what others think these might be. To my mind SuSE would do well to present themselves as the orchestrators of the combined contributions of their user community. As it is, they seem kind of reclusive and aloof. Perhaps they could cast themselves as something of a Linux on-line university. The company is run by a bunch of Mathematicians if I'm not mistaken. You'd think these guys would have learned the most important lesson taught in graduate school. 'Let others do the hard work, and then you put your name on it.' {;-)> I believe a conservative Mandrake-like approach would be good for SuSE. Steve
On Fri, 09 Mar 2001, Steven T. Hatton wrote: ---snip---
Ahm, perhaps SuSE could produce a book that gives a system level and component level description of their product.
Hi, Steve: Does "The SuSE Linux Server" book do what you're discussing? Thanks, Tom
On Friday 09 March 2001 19:02, you wrote:
On Fri, 09 Mar 2001, Steven T. Hatton wrote: ---snip---
Ahm, perhaps SuSE could produce a book that gives a system level and component level description of their product.
Hi, Steve: Does "The SuSE Linux Server" book do what you're discussing? Thanks, Tom
Not really. But it is full of good information! I got several things working after reading it. Mike -- Powered by SuSE 7.0, Kernel 2.4.1 For a great linux portal try http://www.freezer-burn.org
Steve,
Ahm, perhaps SuSE could produce a book that gives a system level and component level description of their product. This book might also describe the basics of working with gcc, configure, make, etc. It should probably also have a basic description of how the kernel works, and how modules work in conjunction with the kernel. Perhaps a bit of discussion of how hardware dirvers work, and how they are written would be useful as well. Sample code for 'toy' implementation in these various areas would also be of interest. Of course there should be a section describing how to work with RPMs in the SuSE environment in such a way as to produce compatable RPM packages.
I like the idea but I think that your proposal addresses a different gap in the 'market'. This is really for tech-heads with a couple of years of messing around and administrating Linux (even if it is only your own box). What I'm aiming at is a quick way for people to get up and running making RPMs to contribute to the community. The information should be concise and straightforward.
In order to fill the gap between now and the time such a book might be completed, it could be released in sections to the portal. This would give the advantage of aquiering feedback as the product matures.
I like the idea of peer review during the writing process. A good example is the ZOPE book that has been developed on the ZOPE site and heavily influenced by zopistas.
You are correct about Mandrake being very community oriented. I'm sure there are downsided to this as well, and I would like to hear what others think these might be. To my mind SuSE would do well to present themselves as the orchestrators of the combined contributions of their user community.
That is one of the main differences that people leaving windows and coming to Linux find: the community spirit. Although I know from sales figures that SuSE (in Europe) is one of the best sellers it wasn't until I joined this mailling list that I made contact with other SuSE users. Everyone that I met in person in the UK was using some other distro (mostly redhat based). This community atmosphere which has sustained and nurtured Linux from it's inception needs to be fostered and cultivated. Although it doesn't appear on SuSE's balance sheet, SuSE's community is in the long run one of its' most valuable assets.
'Let others do the hard work, and then you put your name on it.' {;-)>
Aah. Reading this I have had a satori and reached enlightenment. I see what I've been doing wrong at work all these years!
I believe a conservative Mandrake-like approach would be good for SuSE.
Agreed. Jethro
On Friday 09 March 2001 21:08, Jethro Cramp wrote:
Steve,
Of course there should be a section describing how to work with RPMs in the SuSE environment in such a way as to produce compatable RPM packages.
I like the idea but I think that your proposal addresses a different gap in the 'market'. This is really for tech-heads with a couple of years of messing around and administrating Linux (even if it is only your own box). What I'm aiming at is a quick way for people to get up and running making RPMs to contribute to the community. The information should be concise and straightforward.
I do mean this to be the kind of book that serves as a reference. Quick, concise, and to the point. Each chapter should basically stand alone, as should all modular design, and certainly such a chapter, or a section thereof, could serve as an online howto. If that is what is most needed at the moment, then write that first. I was looking as some of the SRPM stuff last night, and was really wishing I had a good, clear, step by step which simply told us "How To" with references to "why to" stuff. And examples, examples, examples!
In order to fill the gap between now and the time such a book might be completed, it could be released in sections to the portal. This would give the advantage of aquiering feedback as the product matures.
I like the idea of peer review during the writing process. A good example is the ZOPE book that has been developed on the ZOPE site and heavily influenced by zopistas.
You are correct about Mandrake being very community oriented. I'm sure there are downsided to this as well, and I would like to hear what others think these might be. To my mind SuSE would do well to present themselves as the orchestrators of the combined contributions of their user community.
That is one of the main differences that people leaving windows and coming to Linux find: the community spirit. Although I know from sales figures that SuSE (in Europe) is one of the best sellers it wasn't until I joined this mailling list that I made contact with other SuSE users. Everyone that I met in person in the UK was using some other distro (mostly redhat based). This community atmosphere which has sustained and nurtured Linux from it's inception needs to be fostered and cultivated. Although it doesn't appear on SuSE's balance sheet, SuSE's community is in the long run one of its' most valuable assets.
I didn't mean to knock SuSE's representatives who do work with us. I really appreciate that. I mean, I almost feel famous when I see the people who wrote the guts of some of this stuff posting to this list. What I meant to say is that more structured guidance would be beneficial to all of us.
'Let others do the hard work, and then you put your name on it.' {;-)>
Aah. Reading this I have had a satori and reached enlightenment. I see what I've been doing wrong at work all these years! I've seen Linus Torvalds, and Albert Einstein quoted as saying bassically the same thing. Do you know who Marcel Grossmann was?
I believe a conservative Mandrake-like approach would be good for SuSE.
Agreed.
Jethro
Steve
Hi, On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Jethro Cramp wrote:
Mandrake has a very active user contributed RPM compiling project. You only have to look on rpmfind.net and you can see that usually Mandrake has the most up-to-date RPM's available. It was whilst being involved in this that I learnt to make rpms from srcrpms using Mandrake's very clear HOW-TO.
Can you give me a pointer to that HOWTO? I would like to have a look at it.
SuSE does a wonderful job of making RPM's available to its' users for a wide range of programs. But this really isn't enough. Redhat based RPMs are ubiquitous. New users to SuSE all too easily can end up downloading the wrong RPM (witness Ron Sinclair's recent problem with quanta) and then get frustrated. To change this situation we all need to contribute by taking the miscellaneous RPMs that we build in the course of the daily use of our systems and upload them to rpmfind.net etc.
That would be fabulous :)
Of course sometimes because of the individual nature of everybody's systems someone is going to download an rpm and it isn't going to run; but that is still better than not having a suse rpm at all.
To make this work SuSE needs to take the initiative and write some guidelines for newbies to follow and publish this in a prominent position on their website, in the installed docs and in their manuals. I think that this would have a very positive effect on the useability and accessibility (excuse the marketing speak) of the SuSE distribution.
What does everybody else think?
You hit the nail right on the head - I agree that we have not been very active and encouraging in that respect so far. Even though creating RPMs for SuSE is in no way different than creating an RPM for other Distributions, there still are some things, that are not very well documented so far. The book "Maximum RPM at www.rpm.org is a good start. RPM in general is sparsely documented :( However, I am currently working on a HOWTO-style document, that is going to describe how to build RPMs using some of the SuSE special features like rc.config or init scripts. Stay tuned. LenZ -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Lenz Grimmer SuSE GmbH mailto:grimmer@suse.de Schanzaeckerstr. 10 http://www.suse.de/~grimmer/ 90443 Nuernberg, Germany Whip me. Beat me. Make me maintain AIX.
-----Original Message----- From: Lenz Grimmer [mailto:grimmer@suse.de] Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 12:17 PM To: SuSE Linux English Subject: Re: [SLE] RPMs Rise to Arms
Hi,
On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Jethro Cramp wrote:
Mandrake has a very active user contributed RPM compiling project. You only have to look on rpmfind.net and you can see that usually Mandrake has the most up-to-date RPM's available. It was whilst being involved in this that I learnt to make rpms from srcrpms using Mandrake's very clear HOW-TO.
Can you give me a pointer to that HOWTO? I would like to have a look at it.
http://www.linux-mandrake.com/howtos/mdk-rpm/building.html Charles (-: Forever never goes beyond tomorrow.
Is anyone on this list using _AnyJ_ from Net Computing? I am having problems getting it to run on SuSE7.1 and KDE2.0. Is there a better IDE available for Java programming? Thanks, John
Borland's JBuilder. They have a free version. Check www.borland.com.
You can also check Sun's Forte for Java. The community edition is free.
Check http://www.sun.com/forte/ffj/
Avi
--On Saturday, March 10, 2001 04:00:25 +0000 John Gilger
Is anyone on this list using _AnyJ_ from Net Computing? I am having problems getting it to run on SuSE7.1 and KDE2.0.
Is there a better IDE available for Java programming?
Thanks,
John
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-- Avi Schwartz Get a Life, avi@CFFtechnologies.com Get Linux!
Hi, On Saturday, March 10, 2001 1:17 AM (You should get to bed earlier!) Lenz Grimmer wrote:
Can you give me a pointer to that HOWTO? I would like to have a look at it.
http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/howtos/mdk-rpm/
That would be fabulous :)
Glad we can both see the light!
You hit the nail right on the head - I agree that we have not been very active and encouraging in that respect so far.
Even though creating RPMs for SuSE is in no way different than creating an RPM for other Distributions, there still are some things, that are not very well documented so far. The book "Maximum RPM at www.rpm.org is a good start. RPM in general is sparsely documented :(
The keyword is "book" as soon as I heard it was a book (and later when I found out it was 400+ pages) I was completely turned off the idea of reading it and using anymore than YAST to deal with RPMs. Most people's needs are quite simple; and in fact the way to get people into using RPM's more advanced features should be led into it slowly.
However, I am currently working on a HOWTO-style document, that is going to describe how to build RPMs using some of the SuSE special features like rc.config or init scripts. Stay tuned.
Great! When it reaches beta and you would like a newbie review I would like to look at it and give you my comments. This leads me onto another idea that I have had for a while about user support but I think I'll let this thread run it's course before starting a new one. Jethro
participants (9)
-
Avi Schwartz -
Charles A Edwards -
Jethro Cramp -
John Gilger -
juergen.braukmann＠ruhr-west.de -
Lenz Grimmer -
Mike -
Steven T. Hatton -
tompoe