Am Dienstag 06 Januar 2009 21:31:30 schrieb James Knott:

Milho wrote:

...

Hi there...

Does anyone knows how to choose different wallpapers in KDE4? I use 4 workspaces (as default), but I can't find the option to select individual wallpapers like I used to do in KDE3.5...

I could be mistaken, but I think that's been removed.

Yes it has been removed. But it will come back in KDE 4.2 but with additional features. So you can use different desktop plasmoids icons and panels (which are aplasmoids, too) on each desktop. Because of that it had to be reimplemented completely.

It's one of the "improvements" in KDE 4.

Uneeded sarcasm... Everybody on this list knows how you feel about KDE4. Not neccessary to reapeat this each time. Herbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Run this past me very slowly, KDE 4 the new flagship desktop was shipped *without* the capability to change the desktop background to an image of your choice! Somehow I missed this in the firefight on functionality which explodes periodically on this list...

As has been said many many many times, KDE4.0.4, and KDE4.1 are KDE Desktops in development. KDE4.1 is NOT the final be-all-end-all of KDE4. The KDE4 desktop is a from-scratch re-write to take advantage of QT4 and to clean up the spaghetti code and useless kruft from years of development on the previous code tree. This means that yes bits are still missing... including the soon to be added back in ability to have different wallpapers on each desktop (plus more). The developers are bringing the missing bits back as quickly as they can with the rewritten code and the replacement features showing up almost daily. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* G T Smith [01-07-09 06:39]:

This is all well and good, but to my knowledge throwing out the baby with bathwater (or for a more pertinent metaphor leaving the baby in the open unattended while rebuilding the house) is not a good idea. The repetition of the 'in development' mantra is beginning to wear a little thin.

No more so that your continual bashing. You *have* a choice. Don't use it and you have no more reason unhappiness. Others will blaze the trail and, when you feel that they have achieved your *necessities*, you are free to rejoin. AND you have no problem to continue to bitch about.

The roll out of KDE4 has been a PR and HRM disaster area, with developers feeling under appreciated and abused, experienced users feeling their comments are ignored or discarded at whim, and others just generally confused. Hopefully, other OSS developers will take note of this and take this as example of how *not* to manage a major change to a well used, well loved and well understood tool.

And your dialogue is helping the openSUSE community effort. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

The problem is that KDE 4 has been made the default KDE desktop. Someone who does not know to look a bit further for 3.5 will choose it and find a desktop that's not ready. How does that help new users to be given, by default, a desktop that's not yet ready? By all means included KDE 4, so that it can be tested, but don't make it default. Label it as under development and make 3.5 the default.

I helped a new user set up openSUSE 11.1 in the last week of December. He went with KDE4, and is more than happy with it. In fact, he loves the interface. The only thing he asked was how to get his desktop to work like he's used to from the Windows world... showed him that setting and he was off and running. Almost everything people are missing from KDE4 are the extra things that we are used to from KDE3. A new user doesn't know about multiple desktops (as an example) let alone different wallpapers per desktop. Note, I am NOT saying this is justification for not having such a feature in KDE4.1... just putting this into perspective. From my observations of new users using 11.1 and KDE4 as shipped with 11.1, there is no issue. It works, they like it, and they are not experiencing any issues with it, and I am not getting support calls on it. As far as these new users are concerned, KDE4 is just fine. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 7. Januar 2009 19:09:09 schrieb John Andersen:

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 7:05 AM, Clayton wrote:

...

I helped a new user set up openSUSE 11.1 in the last week of December. He went with KDE4, and is more than happy with it. In fact, he loves the interface. The only thing he asked was how to get his desktop to work like he's used to from the Windows world...

Thanks for those words of wisodm Clayton.

If people would just realize that KDE4 was meant as a Vista replacement and get over this silly nonsense that it has to have all the unused and unwanted functionality they have been burdened with over the years then everyone would be much happier.

And you do not even feel ashamed that you try so hard to deny every single bit of positive experience with KDE4 by twisting other's statements. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton wrote:

...

Run this past me very slowly, KDE 4 the new flagship desktop was shipped *without* the capability to change the desktop background to an image of your choice! Somehow I missed this in the firefight on functionality which explodes periodically on this list...

As has been said many many many times, KDE4.0.4, and KDE4.1 are KDE Desktops in development. KDE4.1 is NOT the final be-all-end-all of KDE4.

So why is it the default KDE desktop, while KDE 3.5 is not immediately obvious? -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 2009 January 07 09:11:26 Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Mittwoch 07 Januar 2009 13:32:17 schrieb James Knott:

...

Clayton wrote:

...

As has been said many many many times, KDE4.0.4, and KDE4.1 are KDE Desktops in development. KDE4.1 is NOT the final be-all-end-all of KDE4.

So why is it the default KDE desktop, while KDE 3.5 is not immediately obvious?

Because KDE3 is final, i.e. a dead-end and because of all the advantages KDE4 has, e.g. a very flexible desktop that kde3 does not provide.

But, KDE 3 is a mature, featureful desktop environment in it's own right and it all works. KDE 4.0 and 4.1 are broken, experimental development versions that are missing a lot of *expected* features and, have a significantly higher crash rate. KDE 3 should have been the default until KDE 4 was really ready for brand-new Linux users. Specifically, those that don't want to take part in experimentation and development, but rather be handed a finished[1] product. Yes, KDE 4 should have been available but *not* the default. I have great hopes for KDE 4 and will probably switch to 4.2.1 from 3.5.10 when it becomes available. However, I think the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4 was bungled at all levels. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/ [1] And KDE 3 is "finished" is multiple ways.

On Wednesday 2009 January 07 12:08:39 Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 7. Januar 2009 17:32:27 schrieb Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.:

...

...

Because KDE3 is final, i.e. a dead-end and because of all the advantages KDE4 has, e.g. a very flexible desktop that kde3 does not provide.

But, KDE 3 is a mature, featureful desktop environment in it's own right and it all works. KDE 4.0 and 4.1 are broken, experimental development versions that are missing a lot of *expected* features and, have a significantly higher crash rate.

Says who? All people I know, do not have those problems. Maybe it is a personal thing.

Well, my message has a quote from "Clayton" to this effect. It's not just him, either: "Some components, like the Plasma desktop layer, are still under heavy development and don't yet provide feature parity with their KDE 3.5.x counterparts. The incompleteness, which will likely frustrate some users, gives KDE 4.0 the feel something akin to a technical preview rather than a production-ready release." http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080111-kde-4-0-rough-but-ready-for-ac... "Despite being a stable release, it was intended for early adopters. Continuing to use KDE 3.5 was suggested for users wanting a more stable, "feature complete" desktop. The intent was for 4.0 to be a developers release." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDE_4 "While KDE 4.1 aims at being the first release suitable for early adopting users, some features you are used to in KDE 3.5 are not implemented yet." http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.1/

...

KDE 3 should have been the default until KDE 4 was really ready for brand-new Linux users. Specifically, those that don't want to take part in experimentation and development, but rather be handed a finished[1] product. Yes, KDE 4 should have been available but *not* the default.

KDE4 is better already and the future, hence it is the default choice. Read the mail by the guy who installed it for a new-to-linux-user.

I read that mail. While it is great that it works for them[1], experiences with KDE 4 are quite mixed and it is not yet ready to be the default from someone new too Linux. the chances are too high that it won't work long enough for them to figure out how to get help. It should be available and it is the future. It should not be the default. Hopefully, 4.2 will be that desktop. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/ [1] And that was an experienced user helping set up an new user, not a new user out on their own.

On Wednesday 2009 January 07 14:32:47 Sven Burmeister wrote:

You have to go back to 4.0 to prove your point? that speaks for itself.

My statement was about both KDE 4.0 and KDE 4.1. I provided quotes supporting the statement about either.

And there are hundreds of features that are part of KDE4 but not KDE3, so kde3 is not ready for default, because it lacks features kde4 has?

No, because that's not a regression.

It's jsut that those complaining shout louder than those just sticking to their work and enjoying the functionality of KDE4.

No, it's just that there are more of us experiencing problems. See, I can make unsupported statements, too! :P <troll> Go away KDE 4 fanboi! </troll> KDE 4.0 and 4.1 were not intended for the average user. 4.0 was for developers; 4.1 was for early adopters. Those are facts. IMO, that make both inappropriate as the default desktop environment.[1] -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/

On Wednesday 2009 January 07 20:49:41 Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:36:16 -0600, you wrote:

...

KDE 4.0 and 4.1 were not intended for the average user. 4.0 was for developers; 4.1 was for early adopters. Those are facts.

That doesn't change the fact that KDE 3.5 is dead and won't be maintained upstreams. No distributor I know of has the respources to maintain a complete KDE version all on their own.

Debian will, at least until Lenny and Etch are BOTH out of security support. Plus, after we actually get a KDE 4 release targeted toward normal users, I'd have no problem with it being the default. It is the way forward, with a cleaner, broader, more powerful base for better integrated applications and a more flexible user experience. I have great hopes for it and SOON. It's just not ready to be the default yet. It's not like KDE 3 was dropped by upstream as soon as KDE 4.0 was released. The KDE 3.5.10 release was AFTER the KDE 4.1 release, and I haven't heard that there definitely won't be a 3.5.11. It may well still be maintained upstream for a while. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/

On Wed January 7 2009 1:08:39 pm Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 7. Januar 2009 17:32:27 schrieb Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.:

...

...

Because KDE3 is final, i.e. a dead-end and because of all the advantages KDE4 has, e.g. a very flexible desktop that kde3 does not provide.

But, KDE 3 is a mature, featureful desktop environment in it's own right and it all works. KDE 4.0 and 4.1 are broken, experimental development versions that are missing a lot of *expected* features and, have a significantly higher crash rate.

Says who? All people I know, do not have those problems. Maybe it is a personal thing.

...

KDE 3 should have been the default until KDE 4 was really ready for brand-new Linux users. Specifically, those that don't want to take part in experimentation and development, but rather be handed a finished[1] product. Yes, KDE 4 should have been available but *not* the default.

KDE4 is better already and the future, hence it is the default choice. Read the mail by the guy who installed it for a new-to-linux-user.

So you are saying that KDE4 is most appropriate for the few former users of dumbed down idiotware from M$ because they are more comfortable with that kind of a system and inappropriate for the vast majority of Linux users that are not used to dumbed down, choicless systems. When I installed 11.1, I excercised my 'choice' and selected 'other' + KDE3.5, but most of the installed software supposedly KDE3.5.x was actually KDE4.x replacements that simply didn't work well for me....notably Konqueror was so crippled that I had to go get the source for it and recompile it and overwrite the 'choice' I was given. I'm not even sure it is possible to get/install v3.5.x in any 'pristine' form during the install of 11.1. Don't tell me to not install 11.2, that is BS because there is more to the distro than KDE such as wifi drivers and kernel bugfixes and much more of value. KDE4 stuff is being jammed down my throat even when I explicitly spend much time during installation deselecting anything that mentions KDE4.x and then trying to find the 3.5x equivilents that somehow don't get marked even though you select that 'package'. If I want SuSE 11.1+, I am FORCED to take KDE 4 stuff even though I want KDE3.5.10 stuff ONLY on my production machines. I run both versions of KDE on my TEST MACHINE but when I want to do real work, I don't want to also be doing testing when I can be using a 'mature and functional' desktop. Richard -- Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hi Sven. I didn't said that I can't change the background image, qhat I said is that I can't choose individual wallpapers anymore... Before KDE4, we were used to choose one wallpaper for each workspace or set the same for every workspace. Now, we can only set a wallpaper for every workspace, understood? :) For everyone, I didn't create this topic to discuss about the KDE4 quality, comparing this with KDE3... I just wanna know how to do the same things I used to do in KDE3 (I used KDE4.0 only for testing, but I used 3.5 as default in my OpenSuse 11.0). So, another 2 questions: when is KDE4.2 ready for final users? Is it coming with Suse 11.2? Thx a lot again :) And sorry for the english errors, but I am brazilian and I don't speak english so well... MilhoXP "milho" in Brazil means "corn" in USA, so... "don't eat milho!!!" Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Mittwoch 07 Januar 2009 13:32:17 schrieb James Knott:

...

Clayton wrote:

...

...

Run this past me very slowly, KDE 4 the new flagship desktop was shipped *without* the capability to change the desktop background to an image of your choice! Somehow I missed this in the firefight on functionality which explodes periodically on this list...

You cannot set the background image of your desktop in KDE4.1 to some image? Why can I?, and if my mind does not fail me, I could do so in 4.0 as well. But since 4.0 was never default, that does not really matter anyway. In 4.2 I can even set a background per activity.

But even if you could not, how would that hinder people from working, which is the major aspect when picking a default desktop environment? The limited desktop in kde3 however does hinder people, since it is not flexible enough to work with multiple projects one is working on.

...

...

As has been said many many many times, KDE4.0.4, and KDE4.1 are KDE Desktops in development. KDE4.1 is NOT the final be-all-end-all of KDE4.

So why is it the default KDE desktop, while KDE 3.5 is not immediately obvious?

Because KDE3 is final, i.e. a dead-end and because of all the advantages KDE4 has, e.g. a very flexible desktop that kde3 does not provide. kde3 does not give you a choice about it, kde4 does, even the choice to have the very limited desktop+icons as in kde3.

Sven

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, January 7, 2009 11:13, G T Smith wrote:

Run this past me very slowly, KDE 4 the new flagship desktop was shipped *without* the capability to change the desktop background to an image of your choice! Somehow I missed this in the firefight on functionality which explodes periodically on this list...

ROFLCOPTER!!! People, you're discussing frakkin' wallpapers! That can hardly be called a major usability issue. If you want to rant, rant about poor support for screenreaders, for the visually impaired.

A happy enlightenment user with my own wallpaper :-)

I'll raise you with Ion. :-p -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

G T Smith wrote:

Amedee Van Gasse wrote:

...

ROFLCOPTER!!! People, you're discussing frakkin' wallpapers! That can hardly be called a major usability issue. If you want to rant, rant about poor support for screenreaders, for the visually impaired.

Amedee, From a product management standpoint, the point is much larger than any one nit or application. The point is the apparent total incompetence on the part of some to be able to manage simple parts of what heretofore has been a perfectly functioning and working linux distribution without breaking it. The second point is the apparent total lack of oversight or meaningful QA to make sure that the simple stuff isn't released until it is ready and doesn't go out the door broken. There is no excuse for putting out backgrounds that don't work or sysconfig editors that don't edit or software search functions that don't search or abort functions that don't abort or yast interfaces that are so squished you can't read the fields, and the list goes on and on with 11.1. When there are unexplainable problems with the very basic and rudimentary parts of a release, it calls into question the quality, fitness and attention to detail of the entire release and makes you wonder "did somebody turn openSuSE over to a bunch of teenagers to manage?" There is no excuse for patent incompetence. I know software releases have growing pains and I accept that. I am more than happy to devote time to helping fix new applications and new functionality to make the distro better. It is just very frustrating to have to waste all the time, energy and effort, fixing things that used to work perfectly but are now broken. That is effort wasted fixing things that never should have been broken in the first place or should not have been released until an adult had QA'ed the code. When you are wasting effort fixing problems that shouldn't exist, you have lost all of that positive effort that should have been used to add capability or new function, but instead was used to fix a screw up. If you spend all your time playing golf, your tennis game will suffer... Just my .02. (sad -- I recall writing this exact same post 5 years ago in another venue) If you sat on the openSuSE board and saw all these problems occurring with your latest and greatest state of the art release, what would your guidance to the CEO be? -- Your Fired! -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, January 6, 2009 21:31, James Knott wrote:

Milho wrote:

...

Hi there...

Does anyone knows how to choose different wallpapers in KDE4? I use 4 workspaces (as default), but I can't find the option to select individual wallpapers like I used to do in KDE3.5...

I could be mistaken, but I think that's been removed. It's one of the "improvements" in KDE 4.

Really? Please explain the screenshot in attachment. 4 desktops, zoomed out, 4 different wallpapers. Amedee.

On Thu, January 8, 2009 00:57, Mukul Singh wrote:

Amedee Van Gasse wrote:

...

On Tue, January 6, 2009 21:31, James Knott wrote:

...

Milho wrote:

...

Hi there...

Does anyone knows how to choose different wallpapers in KDE4? I use 4 workspaces (as default), but I can't find the option to select individual wallpapers like I used to do in KDE3.5...

I could be mistaken, but I think that's been removed. It's one of the "improvements" in KDE 4.

Really? Please explain the screenshot in attachment. 4 desktops, zoomed out, 4 different wallpapers.

Amedee.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Photoshop :-P

BS. I use Linux, remember. Now if you would have said Gimp... ;-) But seriously. The only image manipulation was converting the png to jpg, for file size. Amedee. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, January 8, 2009 06:06, Fred A. Miller wrote:

Amedee Van Gasse wrote:

...

On Tue, January 6, 2009 21:31, James Knott wrote:

...

Milho wrote:

...

Hi there...

Does anyone knows how to choose different wallpapers in KDE4? I use 4 workspaces (as default), but I can't find the option to select individual wallpapers like I used to do in KDE3.5... I could be mistaken, but I think that's been removed. It's one of the "improvements" in KDE 4.

Really? Please explain the screenshot in attachment. 4 desktops, zoomed out, 4 different wallpapers.

NO, you explain it! I have the latest updates (KDE 4.2 beta) and I can't set diff. wallpapers.

There is no need to shout. Go to desktop 1, RMB, set wallpaper. Go to desktop 2, RMB, set wallpaper. Lather. Rince. Repeat. Sorry, can't give you the very last details of the procedure because I'm at work now. You'll have to wait until tonight. I do find it annoying that I cannot set the different wallpapers in one screen. It's really cluncky, there is room for improvement. But I understand that KDE 4.0 and 4.1 are dev versions for advanced users only, and I don't use multiple desktops a lot, so I'm not complaining. I'm sure the KDE devs will make it work in 4.2. -- Amedee -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org