On Wed, 21 May 2008 22:38:07 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
True, but I can't see that it would hurt to label the KDE4 item "Preview", "Beta", or in some other way.
It wouldn't be bad, but that is so right now. In 30+ days it will be different.
Yeah, I made that comment a little later. It's easy to think about "now", much more difficult to see into the future. I've also done a little reading on the kde website and have to agree with the comments others have posted about the alpha/beta one being 4.1, not 4.0 - 4.0 is listed as "stable". So in a way it kinda is "mountain out of a molehill". Maybe not 100%, though.
Stephan Kulow is KDE developer and the good one. He knows better than most of us what can be expected at the time of openSUSE release. If he thinks it should be as is, why me, or anyone else with marginal insight should question his decision.
Well, I could see it both ways. On the one hand, yes, he's the one with the knowledge to make the decision. On the other hand, from a "community" standpoint, it shouldn't be a decision made out of the light of the community. Maybe it hasn't been - like I said, I'm kinda new here on this list. But I was getting a bit tired of Sam or Washington or whatever his name is now continually railing and throwing invective around. That seems to have slowed - I like to think because I've raised his questions in a less personal way. Personally, I use GNOME, so I don't really care either way. ;-) I'll probably install kdelibs for 3 and 4 (because I do use a few KDE apps), so I'll get a taste of them both at some point.
I'm trying to think like a new user to Linux here (not an easy task since I've been using Linux since RedHat 5.2 - and that's probably "new" compared to many others here).
I have good memory in this respect, and that is why I wrote:
It's good that someone does. I think it's easy to forget what it's like to be making the decisions as a new user. I like to think that people will do research ahead of time before just installing something on their systems, too, but I've been surprised by users on more than one occasion over the last 20 years (used to be in IT, now am in management in Novell's training organization).
I'm pretty sure if I would have to choose from few listed options that I have no idea what they are, I would would assume that listed items are sorted in that way for some reason and that would be that software vendor will put first items that will present them in the best way, and then down the list choices that are not so good.
But even that is valid for very few brave that will try installation on their own.
Well, some brave, and some foolish, too - I know plenty of people who fit both molds who would "give it a try" without educating themselves first. So there is an element of "Caveat Emptor" involved as well for those who don't do their homework ahead of time.
I think it would be fairly obvious that the sort order is alphabetic ...
It is to you and me, but it is not strict alphabetic order when is first KDE4 and than KDE3. For the new user will be "I have no idea what is this, let me see the first one", or throw the dice and see.
True, strict alphabetic order would have 3.5 first, then 4.0. Funny I didn't notice that before. But going on the psychology of the most memorable things being the first and last, the middle probably makes sense for 4.0. (Except that the real "last" is "Other", but that opens up additional steps in the install)
Those that will skip GNOME already have preference and know what is the difference between KDE3 and 4.
I don't know that that's a safe assumption unless the new user has been in a complete Linux vacuum and heard nothing at all about Linux before trying it. They may have heard friends talk about GNOME vs. KDE - or they may have read news articles about Linus' highly-publicized comments about his preference for KDE.
Highly publicized for Linux fans. I haven't seen any comment on TV ;-)
Well, I don't watch TV news, but you have a point here - maybe it seems highly publicized because it's in a community I'm in. But the target audience isn't just you and I, nor is it exclusively people like us and people who have no connection to the IT industry; there are plenty of IT professionals who don't use Linux, but rather use Windows and watch Linux. In a way, that's the kind of people I'm thinking of, I guess, rather than someone like my non-technical coworkers (many of whom run SLED, BTW - but they didn't install it or configure it).
People that I convinced to try Linux, knew that Linux exist. I never got chance to discus KDE vs. GNOME, they even had no idea that openSUSE is Linux until it was installed.
Their choice was mine, as later on I have to deal with questions.
True enough.
Well, that's getting pretty nit-picky IMHO.
Just as whole this thread.
Heh, you're right on that.
Now is important what will new user pick, while in reality you have to push that down the throat, gently, and every choice is yours, not new user's.
So if that's the case, though, then which environment are we pushing down their throat? Maybe that's the perception here (and the more I discuss this here, the more I think that the issue is perceptual rather than actual).
..., but rather in representing the KDE4 release appropriately so people's first impression of Linux is a good one.
In my experience, we old users make the impression, not 4/3 or 3/4 of something they have no idea that exists.
Well, yes and no - sure our usage makes the impression to those who aren't yet using it; but if I have problems with the system and I'm a new user, you can bet that I'm not going to look at the component and say "it's KDE3's fault" or "it's KDE4's fault" or "it's GNOME's fault". Most users in the general population blame Windows for problems in their machine when it's really the application. Same logic applies in the Linux user experience for the non-technical user - they'll blame Linux, not the UI, because to them it's all the same system. They don't care which part of it doesn't work, they care that *a* part of it doesn't work and they can't use the system. Which is somewhat like what you say below:
They are happy if that works for browsing, mail, photo, and maybe some 'essential' windows application via Wine, and that is all they want to know. Average computer user is not interested in computer as computer, but what he/she can do with it. That is what most of old users fail to understand. I was in that train all too often, starting talk with thousands of available applications, free of charge, while they want very few of them and they are not that badly concerned if they have to pay to have job done.
But relative to the release of 11.0 final, AFAIK the developers of KDE4 are saying it won't be finished by that time. ...
Coolo is KDE insider and openSUSE manager. He probably has much better insight where it will be by openSUSE release ;-)
That's good to know. :-) Jim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org