On Tue, 20 May 2008 23:16:53 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

...

Thanks, Anders. What about the idea of somehow flagging KDE4 as beta? Basil does bring up a good point, I think.

The point is good, but skips GNOME that is on position one.

True, but I can't see that it would hurt to label the KDE4 item "Preview", "Beta", or in some other way. I'm trying to think like a new user to Linux here (not an easy task since I've been using Linux since RedHat 5.2 - and that's probably "new" compared to many others here).

I'm pretty sure if I would have to choose from few listed options that I have no idea what they are, I would would assume that listed items are sorted in that way for some reason and that would be that software vendor will put first items that will present them in the best way, and then down the list choices that are not so good.

I think it would be fairly obvious that the sort order is alphabetic and not based on anything other than that. I don't know that a new user would see it as anything but an alphabetically sorted list.

Those that will skip GNOME already have preference and know what is the difference between KDE3 and 4.

I don't know that that's a safe assumption unless the new user has been in a complete Linux vacuum and heard nothing at all about Linux before trying it. They may have heard friends talk about GNOME vs. KDE - or they may have read news articles about Linus' highly-publicized comments about his preference for KDE. Those comments, as quoted, didn't reference a version AFAICR, so we do get back to the rather valid point that 4>3, so 4 must be better than 3. It may well be, but it seems only fair to point out to those new users that 4 isn't complete yet.

BTW, this means that fair approach would be to rotate desktops in the list on each new openSUSE version. Current alphabetic gives advantage to GNOME and it is far from fair.

Well, that's getting pretty nit-picky IMHO. This isn't really about what's fair in the listing, but rather in representing the KDE4 release appropriately so people's first impression of Linux is a good one. Nothing against KDE4, but as development hasn't reached a release milestone and some people do have issues with it, I don't think anyone wants new users to get a bad impression of Linux because they chose a desktop environment that may not be at a release state - and as such may have some problems that need to be fixed. New users should have it explained to them that they certainly can choose to use 4, but that because 4 is currently undergoing massive development, they may want to use 3 if they're looking for something solid.

Also, the KDE4 development resembles on express train. The status is changing so fast that while we will be half way chewing question is it ready or not, they will make it ready.

But relative to the release of 11.0 final, AFAIK the developers of KDE4 are saying it won't be finished by that time. Not specifically that they're saying "KDE4 won't be ready for openSUSE 11.0 release", but rather the release timeframe for 11 is before the release timeframe of KDE4, is it not? Jim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 21 May 2008 22:38:07 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

...

True, but I can't see that it would hurt to label the KDE4 item "Preview", "Beta", or in some other way.

It wouldn't be bad, but that is so right now. In 30+ days it will be different.

Yeah, I made that comment a little later. It's easy to think about "now", much more difficult to see into the future. I've also done a little reading on the kde website and have to agree with the comments others have posted about the alpha/beta one being 4.1, not 4.0 - 4.0 is listed as "stable". So in a way it kinda is "mountain out of a molehill". Maybe not 100%, though.

Stephan Kulow is KDE developer and the good one. He knows better than most of us what can be expected at the time of openSUSE release. If he thinks it should be as is, why me, or anyone else with marginal insight should question his decision.

Well, I could see it both ways. On the one hand, yes, he's the one with the knowledge to make the decision. On the other hand, from a "community" standpoint, it shouldn't be a decision made out of the light of the community. Maybe it hasn't been - like I said, I'm kinda new here on this list. But I was getting a bit tired of Sam or Washington or whatever his name is now continually railing and throwing invective around. That seems to have slowed - I like to think because I've raised his questions in a less personal way. Personally, I use GNOME, so I don't really care either way. ;-) I'll probably install kdelibs for 3 and 4 (because I do use a few KDE apps), so I'll get a taste of them both at some point.

...

I'm trying to think like a new user to Linux here (not an easy task since I've been using Linux since RedHat 5.2 - and that's probably "new" compared to many others here).

I have good memory in this respect, and that is why I wrote:

It's good that someone does. I think it's easy to forget what it's like to be making the decisions as a new user. I like to think that people will do research ahead of time before just installing something on their systems, too, but I've been surprised by users on more than one occasion over the last 20 years (used to be in IT, now am in management in Novell's training organization).

...

...

I'm pretty sure if I would have to choose from few listed options that I have no idea what they are, I would would assume that listed items are sorted in that way for some reason and that would be that software vendor will put first items that will present them in the best way, and then down the list choices that are not so good.

But even that is valid for very few brave that will try installation on their own.

Well, some brave, and some foolish, too - I know plenty of people who fit both molds who would "give it a try" without educating themselves first. So there is an element of "Caveat Emptor" involved as well for those who don't do their homework ahead of time.

...

I think it would be fairly obvious that the sort order is alphabetic ...

It is to you and me, but it is not strict alphabetic order when is first KDE4 and than KDE3. For the new user will be "I have no idea what is this, let me see the first one", or throw the dice and see.

True, strict alphabetic order would have 3.5 first, then 4.0. Funny I didn't notice that before. But going on the psychology of the most memorable things being the first and last, the middle probably makes sense for 4.0. (Except that the real "last" is "Other", but that opens up additional steps in the install)

...

...

Those that will skip GNOME already have preference and know what is the difference between KDE3 and 4.

I don't know that that's a safe assumption unless the new user has been in a complete Linux vacuum and heard nothing at all about Linux before trying it. They may have heard friends talk about GNOME vs. KDE - or they may have read news articles about Linus' highly-publicized comments about his preference for KDE.

Highly publicized for Linux fans. I haven't seen any comment on TV ;-)

Well, I don't watch TV news, but you have a point here - maybe it seems highly publicized because it's in a community I'm in. But the target audience isn't just you and I, nor is it exclusively people like us and people who have no connection to the IT industry; there are plenty of IT professionals who don't use Linux, but rather use Windows and watch Linux. In a way, that's the kind of people I'm thinking of, I guess, rather than someone like my non-technical coworkers (many of whom run SLED, BTW - but they didn't install it or configure it).

People that I convinced to try Linux, knew that Linux exist. I never got chance to discus KDE vs. GNOME, they even had no idea that openSUSE is Linux until it was installed.

Their choice was mine, as later on I have to deal with questions.

True enough.

...

Well, that's getting pretty nit-picky IMHO.

Just as whole this thread.

Heh, you're right on that.

Now is important what will new user pick, while in reality you have to push that down the throat, gently, and every choice is yours, not new user's.

So if that's the case, though, then which environment are we pushing down their throat? Maybe that's the perception here (and the more I discuss this here, the more I think that the issue is perceptual rather than actual).

...

..., but rather in representing the KDE4 release appropriately so people's first impression of Linux is a good one.

In my experience, we old users make the impression, not 4/3 or 3/4 of something they have no idea that exists.

Well, yes and no - sure our usage makes the impression to those who aren't yet using it; but if I have problems with the system and I'm a new user, you can bet that I'm not going to look at the component and say "it's KDE3's fault" or "it's KDE4's fault" or "it's GNOME's fault". Most users in the general population blame Windows for problems in their machine when it's really the application. Same logic applies in the Linux user experience for the non-technical user - they'll blame Linux, not the UI, because to them it's all the same system. They don't care which part of it doesn't work, they care that *a* part of it doesn't work and they can't use the system. Which is somewhat like what you say below:

They are happy if that works for browsing, mail, photo, and maybe some 'essential' windows application via Wine, and that is all they want to know. Average computer user is not interested in computer as computer, but what he/she can do with it. That is what most of old users fail to understand. I was in that train all too often, starting talk with thousands of available applications, free of charge, while they want very few of them and they are not that badly concerned if they have to pay to have job done.

...

But relative to the release of 11.0 final, AFAIK the developers of KDE4 are saying it won't be finished by that time. ...

Coolo is KDE insider and openSUSE manager. He probably has much better insight where it will be by openSUSE release ;-)

That's good to know. :-) Jim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 21 May 2008 21:39:55 Aaron Kulkis wrote:

What part of "beta will released this summer" do you not understand?

What part of backported fixes don't you understand? Aaron, stop spamming this list Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 21 May 2008 02:39:55 pm Washington Irving wrote:

...

Also, the KDE4 development resembles on express train. The status is changing so fast that while we will be half way chewing question is it ready or not, they will make it ready.

Uh huh.  There you go with another lie about how KDE 4 is going to be production quality by the time 11.0 is released -- while the devs are saying that KDE 4 will still be alpha-quality.

If you stop to be smart and assume what other mean, but instead start reading what is written, you may stop insulting people, and show that you really like this community. You can't say "I like openSUSE" and then insult or annoy everyone around.

So YOU know the devs' rate of progress better than they do now, eh?

I'm not sure about when they going to release and what, but looking in persistency of this discussion, they will be done far before this thread dies, and that is all I said. ;-) -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 21 May 2008 06:24:13 pm Washington Irving wrote:

I'll let go of this issue when it's resolved satisfactorily.

Which means stop with the song-and-dance about KDE 4, and trying to use weasel-words to describe it as something that has not yet become.

I do describe it as is, not better or worse, but it is always as I see it. What I don't allow is flat denial based on status that is already changed. For instance telling that Konsole is crashing is old story, it is already fixed. Your search tool didn't helped you here, but made you look bad.

What in the hell is the problem with just being honest about KDE 4 on the install screens?

What????

Nothing, just as it is now it will be on the release date. Time for discussion was one or two week ago on opensuse-project, and whoever had something to say already said. Conclusion was to have it this way, but on the other hand it is subject to optimizations (changes) :-)

Is there some culture of deceptiveness at Novell which is rubbing off on you guys, or what?

All you have to do is to download openSUSE 11.0 Beta3 and see by yourself, not just read comments on mail lists, than you will see that KDE4 is not as developed as KDE3 (what is obvious), but far from useless, as it was last October. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kevin Dupuy wrote:

On Wed, 2008-05-21 at 15:39 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...

Uh huh. There you go with another lie about how KDE 4 is going to be production quality by the time 11.0 is released -- while the devs are saying that KDE 4 will still be alpha-quality.

...

From KDE.org's Latest Announcements: KDE 4.1 Alpha1 released. On 29th April 2008, the KDE community released the first preview for KDE 4.1, the upcoming version of the cutting-edge Free Desktop.

The devs are referring to KDE 4.1: 4.0 is shipping in openSUSE 11.0, and it is released, has been since January.

So it's changed since I looked at it last Friday afternoon. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

On Wednesday 21 May 2008 04:35, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

What about the idea of somehow flagging KDE4 as beta?

http://www.suse.de/~sh/yast2/11.0-Beta3Plus/yast2-004-desktop.png

It says:

"KDE 4.0 is the most recent evolution of KDE. It comes with many new KDE technologies, but it is less mature than the other desktops."

But on the KDE home page, it says that KDE 4 will be beta this summer. Which means, right now, in their assessment (and who would know better?), KDE 4 is currently alpha. And considering all of the missing functionality, especially when it comes to configurability, KDE 4 is definitely alpha. STOP insulting our intelligence with all of these ridiculous lies about how KDE 4 is a desktop which can be relied on to work in all conditions and environments when the SUSE 11.0 release comes out...because it still isn't anywhere close. Every time one of you tries to tell us this lie, all it does is wear away the trust we have in you.

(Other screen shots at http://www.suse.de/~sh/yast2/11.0-Beta3Plus/ )

CU

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2008-05-21 at 16:11 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...

It says:

"KDE 4.0 is the most recent evolution of KDE. It comes with many new KDE technologies, but it is less mature than the other desktops."

But on the KDE home page, it says that KDE 4 will be beta this summer.

They say KDE 4.1 will be... We don't use kde 4.1, we have kde 4.0, and that one is not beta, it is a released version. http://www.kde.org/ writes: KDE 4.0.4 available. On 7th May 2008, the KDE Community released the fourth update to the new major version of the K Desktop Environment. This release is a service update for the KDE 4.0 desktop released earlier this year. KDE 4.1 Alpha1 released. On 29th April 2008, the KDE community released the first preview for KDE 4.1, the upcoming version of the cutting-edge Free Desktop. Now, will you please stop saying that opensuse is releasing 11.0 with an alpha kde? :-/ And I'd like to read you asking for excuses. Dreams... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFINTBBtTMYHG2NR9URAgBhAJkBwefhsBBHDyT/BU56xPlVOqEkOQCfbmjQ 5D/0KbovFmPYmyXsSNCFozQ= =Cx/S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Fred A. Miller wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

The Wednesday 2008-05-21 at 16:11 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...

...

It says:

"KDE 4.0 is the most recent evolution of KDE. It comes with many new KDE technologies, but it is less mature than the other desktops." But on the KDE home page, it says that KDE 4 will be beta this summer. They say KDE 4.1 will be...

We don't use kde 4.1, we have kde 4.0, and that one is not beta, it is a released version.

Correct!! What is released 4 IS stable.....NO argument there...not from me anyway. My complaint is that 4.0 is GROSSLY non-functional, compared to 3.*. Further, it's NOT a "winner" until it is as functional.

Significant tracts of missing functionality = alpha, regardless of whether it is stable or not. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2008 19:56:29 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...

Significant tracts of missing functionality = alpha, regardless of whether it is stable or not.

That rather depends on what functionality is missing and whether or not the user uses it or not. Which ultimately means it's not alpha/not alpha, but usable by the user. Some might say that compared to KDE3, GNOME 2.22 is "missing functionality", but I also think that for those who develop GNOME (or those who use it, for that matter) would hardly say that makes GNOME alpha software.

Going from KDE 3 to a KDE with the functionality of Gnome is alpha. We expect more from KDE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2008 23:21:02 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...

Going from KDE 3 to a KDE with the functionality of Gnome is alpha.

We expect more from KDE.

*You* perhaps do. I don't know who this "we" is to whom you refer.

People who use it. There's a reason we don't use Gnome -- KDE has vastly more functionality. In case you haven't noticed, all of the complaints about KDE 4 so far boil down to KDE 4 not yet having the functionality of KDE 3, therefore making it an unsuitable replacement until such time that KDE 4 gains that functionality. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Thursday 2008-05-22 at 23:43 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...

*You* perhaps do. I don't know who this "we" is to whom you refer.

People who use it.

There's a reason we don't use Gnome -- KDE has vastly more functionality. In

I use gnome precisely because it does less things. So... "we"? You don't speak for everybody. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFINrGktTMYHG2NR9URAnLvAJ90FAcBBnstGf2yI4Ycfp+eh7AKrgCgkims UQGPEZdZR6u98qb9u8Rewv8= =REAx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Fri, 23 May 2008 13:59:32 +0200 (CEST), Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

So... "we"? You don't speak for everybody.

Seems Aaron likes to speak of himself as "we" (the majestic plural :).

I'd have to agree with sam clemens that kde users *do* expect more from kde. On the other hand, I perceive the rate of progress on kde4 to be satisfactory, and expect not only that OS 11.0 will be a nice release, but that it will also ship with a useful kde4, and that will only get better moving forward. Joe -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2008-05-23 at 13:54 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...

...

...

*You* perhaps do. I don't know who this "we" is to whom you refer.

People who use it.

There's a reason we don't use Gnome -- KDE has vastly more functionality. In

I use gnome precisely because it does less things. So... "we"? You don't speak for everybody.

So then your opinion on the lack of functionality in KDE 4 is entirely pointless, as you don't use KDE in the first place.

I'm talking about people who use KDE, not people who don't use KDE.

You are wrong again: I do use KDE, too. Specially some KDE aps I use almost every day. And there is a particular one I need that only runs in kde 4, so I need kde 4. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFINwxktTMYHG2NR9URAvsgAJ4tMn2ROR5a0OM3dIvr55Ri7MG6hQCfTZzk SUietQ6NwJbLGXqj8KGZe8Y= =W6x6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Washington Irving, It is time to let this thread die. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson wrote:

On Thu, 22 May 2008 23:21:02 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...

Going from KDE 3 to a KDE with the functionality of Gnome is alpha.

We expect more from KDE.

*You* perhaps do. I don't know who this "we" is to whom you refer.

Jim, you earlier said you work for Novell. Now, are you interested in the opinions inside the Novell echo chamber (every company has one about their products), or are you interested in hearing about how the rest of the world views and uses your products. Back around 1986 or so, HP introduced the HP-28C, which had about 500 built-in functions, and only a few kilobytes of user memory. HP's intention was that a user would program the calculator for a problem, run the program, and then reprogram it for a new program. They quickly discovered that they were wrong. The community wanted, most of all, more memory so that a user could keep in memory several complex programs and data in memory at one time, rather than having to erase a program to make room for another, and then have to re-enter the first program. So HP quickly did a re-design, and introduced the HP-28S, with 32k of user memory. Again users wanted more memory, AND more organization to what was stored in memory -- so the HP-40S was designed (taking the body shape of the retired HP-42C), but now added directory structures and path names to the built-in code. The most recent incarnation of the HP-28 code is in the HP-50. This calculator comes with 512 MB of user memory, and has an expansion port for off-the-shelf SD cards -- all because HP payed attention to the customer base -- even when the customers had a COMPLETELY different idea about the product than what HP did. Forget what the company THINKS users should be doing with your product and think about it, and start paying attention to how we, the user base think use it and think about it. What people on this list like about KDE as opposed to Gnome is that KDE has so much more functionality and configurability. Push a KDE version which has no more functionality than Gnome, and you're going to have a LOT of pissed-off people. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 23 May 2008 00:10:22 -0400, Edmund Fitzgerald wrote:

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Thu, 22 May 2008 23:21:02 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...

Going from KDE 3 to a KDE with the functionality of Gnome is alpha.

We expect more from KDE.

*You* perhaps do. I don't know who this "we" is to whom you refer.

Jim, you earlier said you work for Novell.

Now, are you interested in the opinions inside the Novell echo chamber (every company has one about their products), or are you interested in hearing about how the rest of the world views and uses your products.

Let me be absolutely clear about one thing: My role inside Novell has nothing to do with the Linux product lines. I'm the manager of the instructor programs. My specific areas of product expertise (from when I was an IT professional) were NDS, eDirectory, and the identity management products, along with NetWare. My participation here is solely as an openSUSE *user*, not as a corporate person with anything to do with the product. Most of the openSUSE team here - if not all of them - don't know me from Adam. Nothing I say about the product should be taken by *anybody* as any sort of official statement. I'm just another participant in the community; an end user. I mentioned my affiliation earlier because I felt it only fair to disclose that so people wouldn't accuse me of being a corporate shill of some sort (I've seen that happen in other venues) trying to push a corporate perspective on the community. That is *absolutely not* my reason for writing on this list. My purpose in reading and writing the messages here is the same as nearly everyone else's - to learn what's going on in 11.0, to get help with problems I might run into, and to get a feel for what it's going to be like. And I have to say, I'm damned impressed with Beta3. If it hadn't been for the factory kernel that breaks when ACPI is enabled on my laptop, I'd have said it was already an outstanding release. [...]

Forget what the company THINKS users should be doing with your product and think about it, and start paying attention to how we, the user base think use it and think about it. What people on this list like about KDE as opposed to Gnome is that KDE has so much more functionality and configurability. Push a KDE version which has no more functionality than Gnome, and you're going to have a LOT of pissed-off people.

This is very easy for me to do, because I don't know what "the company thinks" users should be doing with the product. I'm not particularly privy to that information. All I know is what I see as a user who is using the product. Like I said, I use GNOME (and have since long before Novell acquired Ximian - I started using Red Carpet because I was too cheap to buy update support from RedHat, and Ximian provided the same updates at no charge), and I happen to like it. Before GNOME, I preferred Enlightenment, and if DR17 had been developed faster, I'd probably be using that instead. I've tried KDE and found that I don't like it. <shrug> That's my personal preference; not because it's what Novell wants to put on the corporate desktops in SLED, but because I've tried both and it's what works best for me. The other thing I do know (and this is not directed at you, Edmund, just something I want to say) is that there are some on this list who seem to think that swearing at the developers is a way to effect change. In my experience, that's a great way to get ignored. Hold an intelligent conversation, debate the merits, and understand that when an organization says they'll listen to you, that doesn't mean they'll implement every change everyone suggests every time. In the first place, invariably two suggestions will come in that directly conflict with each other. I trust that the openSUSE team is taking all of the input into account and will make what they feel is the best decision. As users, we have two options once those decisions are made - live with it, or move. But a development team makes decisions based on *facts*, not *emotions* (or at least IMO they should), so people need to stop being so emotional over the appearance of KDE4 in the menu and just state the facts from their point of view. Calling people names is not only unhelpful, it's counterproductive. Jim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 10:52 PM, Edmund Fitzgerald wrote:

I once heard the remark that there are no good physics text books, because a good physics text book would be written for students, whereas actual physics text books are written to impress other physics professors.

And there is a lot of truth to this theory Mr Sunken Boat... Suse Developers deal with the KDE folks daily and (probably) have some on staff. Now they are being pushed to go to these guys and tell them that KDE is not ready for prime time and the userbase is in revolt. They naturally don't want to throw their colleges under the bus. So they march on assuming that the hardworking KDE guys will get this right before 11 goes out, rather than having to confront their friends with bad reports. But we all know how unlikely it is that KDE will be ready as its still under intense development, and even if it was pronounced "Released" by the KDE crew it would still be untested. (After all those KDE guys are the ones that "Released" 4.0.4). So there is this professional courtesy getting in the way of common sense, and text books are being written for the professors. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Edmund Fitzgerald writes:

[...] And then when they banned Sam from a list just because he was asking questions which made the SUSE people uncomfortable is

Aaron Kuklis was banned from the list in October due to violent violation of the mailing list netiquitte. He came back under disguise as Sam - and I see no reason to unban Aaron.

the absolute height of bad form -- this compounds the original insult of blowing off the users concerns. Isn't it much better to satisfy the user-base by changing a few words on an install screen to address the problem he's concerned about than to create the impression that the SUSE product is run by a bunch of insecure goons who can't handle constructive criticism.

It's clear the level of frustration he was feeling when he asked repeatedly for someone at SuSE to "put an adult in charge" of the 11.0 distribution -- precisely because of the thoroughly unsatisfactory answers coming out of the SUSE folks.

Edmund, this is the wrong forum for any 11.0, we have discussed on the appropriate list where the current status was agreed on by all involved. And "put an adult in charge" is a not respectfull to Coolo!

For all I know, technologically, the 11.0 release will be very good -- but the answers coming from the team come off as anywhere from blase' disinterest for the concerns of those raising them to barely concealed contempt and hostility for even asking questions.

Aaron asked with rather hostility and was not willing to understand anything.

Perhaps this is a difference in the U.S. vs European culture, (and I would put UK culture closer to American culture than European, as the initial philosophical view of the colonists was that they were Englishmen first, and the Revolution was merely the last resort to securing their rights, as Englishman, which the Crown was denying them solely because they weren't living on the home islands.) as the European point of view is rather more stratified and specialized, and "the experts" are generally not to be questioned by the public. However, it seems to escape the SUSE people that many of those who have been prodding them for better answers have actually been in the Unix and/or IT field longer than the SUSE people themselves. Some of us still have nostalgiac memories of PDP-11's running version 7 Unix and/or 2.x BSD (even though these same machines were thoroughly thrashing with as few as 10 users).

-

Anyways, about the KDE 3 vs KDE 4 discussion, I think it's a valid concern coming from those who deal with people who are completely new to Linux, and oftentimes suggest it to people who are willing to try something new -- that the KDE 3/KDE 4 issue be handled properly--not only for the sake of Novell and SUSE, but for the Linux community as a whole.

When suggesting to a complete Linux neophyte that they try SUSE 11.0, do we really want to rely on the recollection of said neophyte to remember any caveats about KDE 4, when they probably didn't understand the verbal warning in the first place? (it's difficult to remember a message which you never understood to begin with). People don't want to suggest something to a friend, and then have it blow up in the friend's face, and have it harm their friendship or business connection.

These sorts of effects seem to be completely ignored by the SUSE 11.0 folks, and yes, that seems to be making a lot of the list subscribers annoyed, because they get the feeling that the SUSE team is making a distro which is going to have a big "gotcha" in the install phase, and which will likely bite ANY new/neophyte user.

This is the wrong forum for this. We had initially only KDE4 there and then discussed (but not on *this* mailing list) to add KDE3 as well - and discussed also how to do it properly. The consensus there was that this is the right way. We did also some tests with users on this. We even discussed AFAIR during one of our IRC meetings... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform/openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

On Fri, 23 May 2008 01:52:58 -0400, Edmund Fitzgerald wrote:

Jim Henderson wrote:

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Let me be absolutely clear about one thing: My role inside Novell has nothing to do with the Linux product lines. I'm the manager of the instructor programs.

Ok... Thanks for making that clear.

No problem.

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And I have to say, I'm damned impressed with Beta3. If it hadn't been for the factory kernel that breaks when ACPI is enabled on my laptop, I'd have said it was already an outstanding release.

Ouch!

Yeah, but a quick search on the error message (the INT 14 problem) told me that a more up-to-date kernel was in the factory, and that's working great.

I haven't tried it on a laptop yet.

Handy thing for me here is that I've got two T42p laptops - one with 10.3, and one with 11.0 Beta3 + some factory updates on it. Nice to have a point of comparison. The only difference between the two machines is that the one running 11.0 Beta3 is a little slower (1.7 GHz instead of 2.0 GHz).

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This is very easy for me to do, [...]

Thanks for clarifying that.

Again, no problem...

I think you have it reversed.

The "swearing at the developers" seems to have came about because the devs were ignoring the concerns of the users and replying to them with brush-off statements. Basically, rudeness was responded to with rudeness.

There's no rule that says that you have to reply to what you perceive as rudeness with more rudeness. Clearly that doesn't help and isn't getting people the answers they want. One definition of insanity that I've heard recently is "continuing to do the same thing and expect a different result". I've had pretty good response from the developers here when I've asked questions. I make a point of sticking to the facts of my question, and when I share an opinion, I make an effort to do so in an unemotional way. Maybe there's something to that.

And then when they banned Sam from a list [...]

Well, I don't know anything about that, so I'm hardly in a position to comment or judge. Even so, the one thing I'd say is that the devs are the hosts here; if they came into your home and acted rude and called you names, you'd be justified in throwing them out - and I'd be very surprised if anyone here didn't throw someone out who was being rude. It's really no different here. There's nothing wrong with behaving in a professional and respectful way, even in the face of perceived rudeness or slights. Aren't we supposed to be working together here? Like many others here, I've participated in online discussion areas of one kind of another for many, many years. It's very easy to interpret something in writing as being "angry" or "upset" or "rude" when it wasn't meant that way. Why not try giving people the benefit of the doubt instead of lashing out in response to something you think is rudeness? With all the different cultures and opinions, there are bound to be disagreements and misunderstandings. Those can be dealt with without escalation of hostilities.

For all I know, technologically, the 11.0 release will be very good -- but the answers coming from the team come off as anywhere from blase' disinterest for the concerns of those raising them to barely concealed contempt and hostility for even asking questions.

I would say this: Don't try to interpret what people *feel* or their emotional state from a written response. It doesn't translate well to writing, especially if the people doing the writing don't natively speak the language (I have had interactions with some of the internal SUSE folks over the last few years, and knowing that some don't speak English natively has helped me understand when they come across as forceful that they really don't mean to do that - it's just how they translate from German to English. German is a very direct (some would say blunt) language). Again, there's no reason to respond to perceived hostility with *more* hostility. Just grab the facts presented and comment on those.

Perhaps this is a difference in the U.S. vs European culture, [...] it seems to escape the SUSE people that many of those who have been prodding them for better answers have actually been in the Unix and/or IT field longer than the SUSE people themselves. Some of us still have nostalgiac memories of PDP-11's running version 7 Unix and/or 2.x BSD (even though these same machines were thoroughly thrashing with as few as 10 users).

It's also important to bear in mind that when it comes to building a release, there are all kind of other factors (in addition to the technical factors) that figure into the decision making process. Resource management, schedule timelines - general project management. While I'm sure *everyone* wants a technically perfect release, there are other factors that come into play that affect the outcome. That doesn't mean the input isn't valuable - as I said somewhere else here, *listening* to input doesn't mean taking every suggestion and implementing it - that's just not feasible. Listening means evaluating feedback against criteria and determining the impact of the change on other parts of the system and (a) whether or not it's something that would be a benefit to a larger part of the customer base, and (b) whether any given proposed change will require a delay in release - and whether such a delay is acceptable or not. Sometimes the best product enhancement suggestions can't be implemented simply due to resource constraints. That's the reality of a development schedule.

Anyways, about the KDE 3 vs KDE 4 discussion, I think it's a valid concern coming from those who deal with people who are completely new to Linux, and oftentimes suggest it to people who are willing to try something new -- that the KDE 3/KDE 4 issue be handled properly--not only for the sake of Novell and SUSE, but for the Linux community as a whole.

Sure, and I don't know that anyone disagrees with that. Where there are differing opinions are in whether what's been done is sufficient or not. As a general rule, people who are happy tend not to say anything, so it is important to take into consideration not only the feedback that comes in that's negative, but also to understand that in the context of the overall user base (which yes, does include the new user, not just the experienced user). I spent a little time doing training material course development for eDirectory. Early on, the suggestion came in from a single large customer to modify the course development to cover trees with over a million objects in them. Labs were proposed and such, and we incorporated the changes. Turned out that most of the customers in the class thought that was interesting, but well beyond what they needed to know for their environments. As a developer, you can't play the game that the loudest complainer gets their way all the time. You have to look at all the data and make a decision based on what's best overall. In looking at the installer again when I installed beta3, I felt that the wording and arrangement of the choices on the page was appropriate. I didn't feel "pushed" into installing KDE4 - quite the contrary, the wording of "stable and mature" on the KDE3.5 item and the lack of that wording on the KDE4 item, plus the fact that the first item was GNOME and the last was KDE3.5 made me feel that I was being directed to select the first or last item rather than the middle item. (I exclude the real last item in the last - "Other" - because that's an extra step to get into, and so again, psychologically speaking, most people aren't even willing to go into that to see what the other options are.)

When suggesting to a complete Linux neophyte that they try SUSE 11.0, do we really want to rely on the recollection of said neophyte to remember any caveats about KDE 4, when they probably didn't understand the verbal warning in the first place? (it's difficult to remember a message which you never understood to begin with). People don't want to suggest something to a friend, and then have it blow up in the friend's face, and have it harm their friendship or business connection.

Absolutely. But at the same time, I don't know many Linux neophytes who will ask for an opinion and then go off and do the installation on their own. There are some, sure, but the vast majority are more likely to ask an experienced user to walk through the installation with them rather than try to remember what they've been told. That's been my experience - and in my team at Novell, I'm constantly helping the new Linux users (using SLED) with questions about how to do things. A few of them are likely able to install the product on their own, but if they were to decide to install it on their home machine, for example, they'd ask me if I could be available in case they had questions along the way. The reason for that is that they know it's a change, and so they are assuming some risk as well in changing to Linux. Most people will want to mitigate that risk by having someone available to help out with the installation if they get stuck.

These sorts of effects seem to be completely ignored by the SUSE 11.0 folks,

"Seem to be" is the operative phrase here. Again, remember that this is a written medium, and you don't necessarily know that the feedback has been ignored. But in the end they do have a job to do - and that is to get the release ready to be put out there. Often times that may mean that they get the feedback, digest it, and incorporate it (or not) without writing a response on every suggestion made.

and yes, that seems to be making a lot of the list subscribers annoyed, because they get the feeling that the SUSE team is making a distro which is going to have a big "gotcha" in the install phase, and which will likely bite ANY new/neophyte user.

I can see how some might feel that way, sure. In the end, maybe we should grant a little more trust to the team that they are taking feedback into consideration and that they want the release to be a success. Nobody *wants* to fail, but some of those who are getting annoyed seem to be of the opinion that the release team is looking forward to celebrating a huge failure. That's simply not the case (and I can say that without knowing anyone on the team - because nobody inherently *wants* to fail).

I once heard the remark that there are no good physics text books, because a good physics text book would be written for students, whereas actual physics text books are written to impress other physics professors.

Is it asking too much that the install screens for the 11.0 release be written appropriately so that it won't mislead new users?

Well, some people have the opinion that the install screens are misleading, and some have the opinion that they're not. In the end, we (on the list) could fuss over the specific wording for months and still not make everyone happy. Perhaps - and I'm just guessing here - the release team realised this early on in the discussion, took the feedback, incorporated what changes they felt were appropriate, but ultimately decided that it was a better use of their time to fix some of the technical glitches than to continue to spend time refining wording until everyone on this list was satisfied with it. IOW, maybe they're trying to avoid "death by analysis" of this one little element of the product. Again, just a guess on my part - not speaking for the team at all. I wouldn't dare.

That's ALL that the users have been asking for concerning this issue...for several *months* -- and rather than giving forthright answers, the SUSE people have been stonewalling and dismissive.

To tell you the truth, if these were face-to-face conversations. the whole thing would have gotten to the point of swearing in FAR less than the time it took on this list -- a couple of hours..or days, at most.

Then it is perhaps a good thing that the discussion wasn't a face-to-face conversation. Of course, the flip side of that is that if it had been f2f, maybe people would've been satisfied with the answers. It's easier to be angry at a screen full of words than an actual live, breathing human being. Online, nobody knows that you're really a dog. ;-)

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I trust that the openSUSE team is taking all of the input into account and will make what they feel is the best decision. As users, we have two options once those decisions are made - live with it, or move. But a development team makes decisions based on *facts*, not *emotions* (or at least IMO they should), so people need to stop being so emotional over the appearance of KDE4 in the menu and just state the facts from their point of view. Calling people names is not only unhelpful, it's counterproductive.

Not if you look in the archives. This issue has been raised repeatedly over the last few months; and what's been bugging the users on this list is the lack of satisfactory answers, either of the dismissal "don't worry about it" type, or just purely outlandish fiction and claims to clairvoyance.

Well, like I said above, at some point a development team has to call an issue closed and move on to more important things. If they tried to make everyone 100% happy with every thing that people don't like, the product would never reach release. Jim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org