On Tuesday 14 April 2009 04:45:15 pm Dan Goodman wrote:
Rajko M. wrote:
... Which is the reason I don't like posts that repeat time and again, seldom substantiated, "I'm not happy". They bring openSUSE users, that have no time to play and explore options, in that metal state where they believe that something is forced upon them.
...
Seldom substantiated?
You are one of those that substantiate problems, most of the time, so it wasn't word about you. You recent mile long post I didn't read through. Sorry. If there was something listed, I missed that.
You want me to make a list of all the difficulties that I can still remember having when I went from 10.3 to 11.1 and tried to install KDE3 and KDE4, so I could experiment with KDE4 and still use 3 until I was comfortable with the new interface.
Probably the most recent list will do it. Yes, I have interest to hear, discuss, search for bugs in bugzillas (kde, novell). Every problem is solvable if user can make effort to define it. If you list example of dependencies we can talk. I object to "ALL" bugs, features, handling, name it, definiton. That is not my, nor special software related problem. Anyone in this world that wants to help other person wants to know what is the problem to solve. I want "ALL" food will produce equal reaction in humanitarian affairs, as I want "ALL" features in discussions about software. Smile at first, and then question:"What exactly you want?" In both cases all is not possible, nor necessary. You can't eat all food, not you can't use all software. Asking for ALL, or EVERYTHING is just as asking for nothing. That is what kinds get when they persist in demand. There is another component too. To get any benefit in the world you have to ask for it and do something that is required to get it. If you see hungry man and call him to come to the table and take food, what would be your reaction if he ask you to stand up and bring whole table to him? The very same reaction you can see by developers. Why would developer help user that doesn't want to take time and list features that he needs? Instead to make his walk, user wants all features, and then will use few of them. In my experience, there are many KDE3 features that are very seldom used. I learned about some in recent discussions. After years of KDE use, I didn't know they exist and I use now just one of them, the Quick Launcher. I'm sure there is whole class that are obsolete, and no one will ask for them. Should developer take time and port something that nobody is asking for?
Now I can't even get them entirely off my machine (unless I reinstall, I guess)...KDE dependencies are such that zypper keeps wanting to add some other part of KDE in when I try to delete parts of it, in what at least *seems* to be based on an arrogant assumption that if I am removing one version, then I must want to switch to the other KDE version or to a different architecture.
It is "arrogant" assumption that you need some sound, basic desktop, and similar basic functions. I was a bit more diligent searching for culprits, that don't let me remove my favorite "I don't like it" applications, so I learned how perplexed is the world of dependencies. For instance PulseAudio, is required by kdebase4. Not all, just one library. So, I removed all but that library. After all, on first update it was again installed. Something else required it. I could go again and remove it, but I used advice to disable it.
And that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Why do their need to be so many hooks between KDE and other apps, also?
If you build your own system from scratch then you can tell what library will be included during compilation, but when you compile software for many different users you include support for almost everything. Mentioned kdebase3 is example. It is built with PulseAudio support and it requires library that provide such support.
And I reject your argument that we who don't work on KDE, when we voice our frustration, are the cause of the majority of the frustration that is heard, because we induce it in others. I suppose all of us were induced into this state of frustration, and there never was any set of users who were genuinely upset.
This is complex interaction between clumsy announcement of new KDE4 when only application was hidden under Alt-F2 (run program). It was actually announced properly, but without big blinking red label "This for developers" and many were laughing, including me. When first applications appeared delighted announcement did not metion that bunch of them is missing. And that makes frustration. Trough that time, there were genuinely upset users, but also bunch that just made noise chewing same arguments time and again. The difference was easy to see. Users that were upset would calm down very fast and give particularities of their problems that was possible to solve, the other branch would ignore posts that were asking "what feature", "name something", and they would come back every time someone would ask anything even remotely KDE4.
Just the type of arrogance that I am referring to. I am not saying that the developers are arrogant because they don't do what I want just because I want it -- I am saying that they appear arrogant because they always dismiss anyone with a complaint as being uncommitted, and being the true source of the repeated frustrations of other users, driving them away by not jumping on the bandwagon, in order to convince more users.
If you create something, that is not perfect. Your customer comes to you with a problem and get surrounded with crowd that only business is to make noise. Wouldn't you defend comfort of you customer and slam everybody in the crowd that screams on him ?
Or should we start a thread "Real Problems I have with KDE4 and the Reasons They are a Problem to Me", and lets see what comes out of the woodwork.
That is all that is asked, all the time. Real problems that can be solved. "All" can't be solved.
Maybe we could even get that Slashdotted, so we would have a really wide sample...or are we supposed to shut up until the developers are ready for us, because by questioning them we are destroying their efforts to succeed by their own lights?
Well, there is an effort to make a layer of users that have more fun talking to other then developers. I'll announce more when I get to the point where we can discuss something. It is know problem that different professions speak different languages, and none can explain their problems in all details to each other.
-- Dan Goodman Senior Systems Administrator
-- Regards, Rajko That would be happy to be a help desk, but can't do much alone. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org