Do I dare say it. It's beginning to sound like the devs for KDE 4 are "doing the MS way". Yes, we know there are bugs - however - it's good enough - so - we're going to release it anyway. Haven't looked at KDE 4 much - yet, Duaine -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home & Business user of Linux - 10 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Duaine & Laura Hechler escribió:
Do I dare say it.
It's beginning to sound like the devs for KDE 4 are "doing the MS way".
Yes, we know there are bugs - however - it's good enough - so - we're going to release it anyway.
What is your contribution to improve the situation ? If you like to be part of the problem and not part of the solution I would suggest you to stop posting. -- "If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed" -George Carlin (1937-2008) Cristian Rodríguez R. Software Developer Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Duaine & Laura Hechler escribió:
Do I dare say it.
It's beginning to sound like the devs for KDE 4 are "doing the MS way".
Yes, we know there are bugs - however - it's good enough - so - we're going to release it anyway.
What is your contribution to improve the situation ? If you like to be part of the problem and not part of the solution I would suggest you to stop posting.
After about 2 looks at KDE very early on, I opted for gnome and never looked back. Try it, you might like it. Ed -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Duaine & Laura Hechler escribió:
Do I dare say it.
It's beginning to sound like the devs for KDE 4 are "doing the MS way".
Yes, we know there are bugs - however - it's good enough - so - we're going to release it anyway.
What is your contribution to improve the situation ? If you like to be part of the problem and not part of the solution I would suggest you to stop posting.
It is probably an emotional thing. I'd be loathe to go to something that doesn't work right in my mind, especially when it appeared that I were being "forced" into that new software. I remember cringing a few years back when I thought that we were going to have to use GNOME. Duane/Laura do post much here and give tons o' helpful advice. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 14 April 2009 11:44:42 am Kai Ponte wrote:
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Duaine & Laura Hechler escribió:
Do I dare say it.
It's beginning to sound like the devs for KDE 4 are "doing the MS way".
Yes, we know there are bugs - however - it's good enough - so - we're going to release it anyway.
What is your contribution to improve the situation ? If you like to be part of the problem and not part of the solution I would suggest you to stop posting.
It is probably an emotional thing. I'd be loathe to go to something that doesn't work right in my mind, especially when it appeared that I were being "forced" into that new software. I remember cringing a few years back when I thought that we were going to have to use GNOME.
Which is the reason I don't like posts that repeat time and again, seldom substantiated, "I'm not happy". They bring openSUSE users, that have no time to play and explore options, in that metal state where they believe that something is forced upon them. Linux is about choices, if you are not happy with one, then use another. Would you look back and check is your favorite in a better shape, depends how new solution fullfils your needs. I wasn't happy when KDE came out and fvwm2 didn't get that much attention anymore, but it came out that KDE isn't that bad, and it is my default for years now. I gave GNOME chance more then once, willing to learn how to use it, but when problems without fix persisted for long periods of time, I finally quitted to repeat attempts on every new installation.
Duane/Laura do post much here and give tons o' helpful advice.
And get some too :-) Like everybody else. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Rajko M. wrote:
... Which is the reason I don't like posts that repeat time and again, seldom substantiated, "I'm not happy". They bring openSUSE users, that have no time to play and explore options, in that metal state where they believe that something is forced upon them.
...
Seldom substantiated? You want me to make a list of all the difficulties that I can still remember having when I went from 10.3 to 11.1 and tried to install KDE3 and KDE4, so I could experiment with KDE4 and still use 3 until I was comfortable with the new interface. Now I can't even get them entirely off my machine (unless I reinstall, I guess)...KDE dependencies are such that zypper keeps wanting to add some other part of KDE in when I try to delete parts of it, in what at least *seems* to be based on an arrogant assumption that if I am removing one version, then I must want to switch to the other KDE version or to a different architecture. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. Why do their need to be so many hooks between KDE and other apps, also? And I reject your argument that we who don't work on KDE, when we voice our frustration, are the cause of the majority of the frustration that is heard, because we induce it in others. I suppose all of us were induced into this state of frustration, and there never was any set of users who were genuinely upset. Just the type of arrogance that I am referring to. I am not saying that the developers are arrogant because they don't do what I want just because I want it -- I am saying that they appear arrogant because they always dismiss anyone with a complaint as being uncommitted, and being the true source of the repeated frustrations of other users, driving them away by not jumping on the bandwagon, in order to convince more users. Or should we start a thread "Real Problems I have with KDE4 and the Reasons They are a Problem to Me", and lets see what comes out of the woodwork. Maybe we could even get that Slashdotted, so we would have a really wide sample...or are we supposed to shut up until the developers are ready for us, because by questioning them we are destroying their efforts to succeed by their own lights? -- Dan Goodman Senior Systems Administrator -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 14 April 2009 04:45:15 pm Dan Goodman wrote:
Rajko M. wrote:
... Which is the reason I don't like posts that repeat time and again, seldom substantiated, "I'm not happy". They bring openSUSE users, that have no time to play and explore options, in that metal state where they believe that something is forced upon them.
...
Seldom substantiated?
You are one of those that substantiate problems, most of the time, so it wasn't word about you. You recent mile long post I didn't read through. Sorry. If there was something listed, I missed that.
You want me to make a list of all the difficulties that I can still remember having when I went from 10.3 to 11.1 and tried to install KDE3 and KDE4, so I could experiment with KDE4 and still use 3 until I was comfortable with the new interface.
Probably the most recent list will do it. Yes, I have interest to hear, discuss, search for bugs in bugzillas (kde, novell). Every problem is solvable if user can make effort to define it. If you list example of dependencies we can talk. I object to "ALL" bugs, features, handling, name it, definiton. That is not my, nor special software related problem. Anyone in this world that wants to help other person wants to know what is the problem to solve. I want "ALL" food will produce equal reaction in humanitarian affairs, as I want "ALL" features in discussions about software. Smile at first, and then question:"What exactly you want?" In both cases all is not possible, nor necessary. You can't eat all food, not you can't use all software. Asking for ALL, or EVERYTHING is just as asking for nothing. That is what kinds get when they persist in demand. There is another component too. To get any benefit in the world you have to ask for it and do something that is required to get it. If you see hungry man and call him to come to the table and take food, what would be your reaction if he ask you to stand up and bring whole table to him? The very same reaction you can see by developers. Why would developer help user that doesn't want to take time and list features that he needs? Instead to make his walk, user wants all features, and then will use few of them. In my experience, there are many KDE3 features that are very seldom used. I learned about some in recent discussions. After years of KDE use, I didn't know they exist and I use now just one of them, the Quick Launcher. I'm sure there is whole class that are obsolete, and no one will ask for them. Should developer take time and port something that nobody is asking for?
Now I can't even get them entirely off my machine (unless I reinstall, I guess)...KDE dependencies are such that zypper keeps wanting to add some other part of KDE in when I try to delete parts of it, in what at least *seems* to be based on an arrogant assumption that if I am removing one version, then I must want to switch to the other KDE version or to a different architecture.
It is "arrogant" assumption that you need some sound, basic desktop, and similar basic functions. I was a bit more diligent searching for culprits, that don't let me remove my favorite "I don't like it" applications, so I learned how perplexed is the world of dependencies. For instance PulseAudio, is required by kdebase4. Not all, just one library. So, I removed all but that library. After all, on first update it was again installed. Something else required it. I could go again and remove it, but I used advice to disable it.
And that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Why do their need to be so many hooks between KDE and other apps, also?
If you build your own system from scratch then you can tell what library will be included during compilation, but when you compile software for many different users you include support for almost everything. Mentioned kdebase3 is example. It is built with PulseAudio support and it requires library that provide such support.
And I reject your argument that we who don't work on KDE, when we voice our frustration, are the cause of the majority of the frustration that is heard, because we induce it in others. I suppose all of us were induced into this state of frustration, and there never was any set of users who were genuinely upset.
This is complex interaction between clumsy announcement of new KDE4 when only application was hidden under Alt-F2 (run program). It was actually announced properly, but without big blinking red label "This for developers" and many were laughing, including me. When first applications appeared delighted announcement did not metion that bunch of them is missing. And that makes frustration. Trough that time, there were genuinely upset users, but also bunch that just made noise chewing same arguments time and again. The difference was easy to see. Users that were upset would calm down very fast and give particularities of their problems that was possible to solve, the other branch would ignore posts that were asking "what feature", "name something", and they would come back every time someone would ask anything even remotely KDE4.
Just the type of arrogance that I am referring to. I am not saying that the developers are arrogant because they don't do what I want just because I want it -- I am saying that they appear arrogant because they always dismiss anyone with a complaint as being uncommitted, and being the true source of the repeated frustrations of other users, driving them away by not jumping on the bandwagon, in order to convince more users.
If you create something, that is not perfect. Your customer comes to you with a problem and get surrounded with crowd that only business is to make noise. Wouldn't you defend comfort of you customer and slam everybody in the crowd that screams on him ?
Or should we start a thread "Real Problems I have with KDE4 and the Reasons They are a Problem to Me", and lets see what comes out of the woodwork.
That is all that is asked, all the time. Real problems that can be solved. "All" can't be solved.
Maybe we could even get that Slashdotted, so we would have a really wide sample...or are we supposed to shut up until the developers are ready for us, because by questioning them we are destroying their efforts to succeed by their own lights?
Well, there is an effort to make a layer of users that have more fun talking to other then developers. I'll announce more when I get to the point where we can discuss something. It is know problem that different professions speak different languages, and none can explain their problems in all details to each other.
-- Dan Goodman Senior Systems Administrator
-- Regards, Rajko That would be happy to be a help desk, but can't do much alone. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 14 April 09, Rajko M. wrote:
On Tuesday 14 April 2009 04:45:15 pm Dan Goodman wrote:
Rajko M. wrote:
... Which is the reason I don't like posts that repeat time and again, seldom substantiated, "I'm not happy". They bring openSUSE users, that have no time to play and explore options, in that metal state where they believe that something is forced upon them.
...
Seldom substantiated?
You are one of those that substantiate problems, most of the time, so it wasn't word about you.
You recent mile long post I didn't read through. Sorry. If there was something listed, I missed that.
Yet you have the gall to babble on inanely about people who don't list and substantiate and when this particular person did, you ignored it. Piss off, you hypocrite. -- There are two types of motorcycles...Harleys and not Harleys. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 14 April 2009 10:32:21 pm JB2 wrote:
On 14 April 09, Rajko M. wrote: ...
You recent mile long post I didn't read through. Sorry. If there was something listed, I missed that.
Yet you have the gall to babble on inanely about people who don't list and substantiate and when this particular person did, you ignored it.
Unlike you, I did read it JB2, otherwise you would know that there is nothing listed that presents bug or missing feature. It is merely Stan's disappointment with status of software and that is nothing I can help with. I'm not KDE developer and can't change anything they do. Above sentence is just to say that I wasn't thorow, reading his article, so there is chance that I missed something wrapped in a larger paragraph.
xxxxxxxx, you hypocrite.
-- Regards. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Duaine & Laura Hechler escribió:
Do I dare say it.
It's beginning to sound like the devs for KDE 4 are "doing the MS way".
Yes, we know there are bugs - however - it's good enough - so - we're going to release it anyway.
What is your contribution to improve the situation ? If you like to be part of the problem and not part of the solution I would suggest you to stop posting.
"Do I dare..."? I dare say that users should not have to be developers of a specific package to make judgments and comparisons of the packages they try, or have committed to. [SIDEBAR: "I grow old, I grow old...I shall wear my trousers rolled. I shall wear grey flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. Do I dare to eat a peach?" -- T.S. Eliot, "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock".] It is precisely this sort of knee-jerk defensiveness, and unwillingness to admit that KDE4, in its present form, is itself more of a problem than a solution to many of us who have tried it, coupled with the early death of KDE3, that made me decide NOT to try to work through the problems, because the vision that was articulated was quite clearly that we will get what the developers want, and our input is not required or listened to, since we are not working on it and don't represent the opinions of the majority of the initial focus group that used to get quoted frequently as the justification for the new paradigm. If I have to choose between "like it or lump it; be one of us or shut up and go away", and something that provides me with a clean upgrade path, for data, apps, learning new interfaces, whatever...I will almost always put my energy into the choice that looks more like a cooperative effort, even at the expense of some "cool" features. Because if the developers can get that right, and/or if they willingly accept feedback from their user community, then IMNERHO they are more likely to deliver more working "cool" features in the long run. Conversely, if I have to leap through hoops for a migration, I usually reason that either I must believe that we are headed somewhere near to where I want to end up, or else I figure I might as well try something different...after all, I am going to have to learn something almost entirely new either way, since the new KDE is mostly a replacement, rather than an addition, to KDE3 behavior. So why not jump ship entirely? It won't take any more effort (maybe less) than staying the course with KDE. Who remembers "New Coke"? It was clearly determined by Coca-Cola management that consumers clearly preferred the sweeter taste of New Coke to Coke Classic, as it is now called. That lasted for about six months after it was implemented, even after Coca-Cola pulled the original Coke entirely ("we need the shelf space to meet the demand for New Coke -- we can't support both, and this is clearly better!"). Let me draw a map: Coke (Classic) ~= KDE3 New Coke ~= KDE4 I may be wrong in my prediction, but this is a proposition I would put my money on, if Las Vegas had a line on KDE4 vs. KDE3/Gnome/the rest of the field. The price of free software is NOT to have to work on an app in order to have an opinion about what one would like it to do...even if the developers do not care to listen. Sorry, but for me, you have just re-enforced my belief that the developers are more interested in their "vision thing" and the large new user community that they *think* it will draw, than they are in meeting the needs of the existing KDE user community -- those of us who initially chose KDE over Gnome, fluxbox, etc. because we accepted in implicit faith that our input about our experiences might be at least considered as reasonable, whether or not the developers choose to develop that item. Big article about the coming showdown between Gnome and KDE, according to an email I got today from Linux Mag. Perhaps they have taken a wide enough sample to disprove the KDE developers' conjecture that only a handful of us are unhappy about the way the 3->4 migration has been handled. Think I'll go read it now... Oh, wait! That's right. Concerning your comment that if I didn't like the New KDE and wasn't working on it, then I should shut up and leave. I DID leave...KDE. Because I don't have time to work on every piece of software I want to use, and I don't have faith in the desirability of this new paradigm that is intentionally made to be a total break with the past. And it was only after several people posted complaints about the new interface that posts started appearing saying that you can always configure it to act like it used to for you, if you give it the right secret combinations... If that is true, then why wasn't that (old style desktop; icons on the desktop if I want them; a kicker replacement that could be easily customized the way *I*, not you, wanted them) -- why wasn't that made available as an easy toggle-switch change, rather than trying to make it easier for users to use the new interface than to try to hang on to what they were comfortable with until they reached a comfort level with the new. "Make the old way almost impossible, and the users will prefer to take the time to learn the new. Otherwise, they will never get to where we want them to be." Sound familiar? I can google where I first heard that response if you want, but it has been said more than once about KDE4. And just out of curiosity, why does/did the KDE team have such a strong belief that *no one* wants desktop icons ever, or at least will never want them once they learn how cool KDE4 is? That was another add-on how-to to get KDE4 to do some of the things some of us *did* want, at least until we became *sold* on the new paradigm. Make no mistake, I wouldn't be here, writing this, if I sincerely felt that an easy migration path would be provided, and that the new paradigm would be introduced alongside what I knew, not as a complete new look and feel. I started out really wanting KDE4 to be better than KDE3 *for my needs as a current user*. You go your way, and I will go mine...but I would be running, working out bugs if necessary, whatever else, with KDE4 still, if I hadn't tried it, didn't like it, and was told I couldn't have anything of KDE3 in it, (until late in the game, when the criticism began to mount). And even if the original posters are "outsiders" by your definition, what does it say that to outsiders, the rollout of KDE4 has the look and feel of way the M$ Aero desktop interface was introduced. And don't tell me KDE4 is better. It doesn't matter, if outsiders (the only place your new users can come from), decide that even dedicated users are getting the same push to upgrade with KDE that feels like deja vu (all over again). Another example: if I wanted a Mercedes Benz G-wagen, but was treated arrogantly in their showroom, even if I was a happy driver of their other SUV, I would quickly learn to make my peace with either a Porsche or a BMW with a configuration somewhat similar to what I was used to. Just because this type of attitude (work on it or shut up) towards the user community comes free of cost, that doesn't mean I, or anyone else owe it to you to work on the product. Someone must, but if only those who do are considered true users, worthy to try to change the package's direction, then you would have an even smaller base. Or did I miss something in your license that goes beyond GPL, that I agreed to become a developer if I wanted any enhancements or changes? Been there, done that, and have the stripes to prove it... (Nietzsche: "God is dead!" -- God: "Nietzsche is dead!") -- Dan Goodman Senior Systems Administrator -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 14 April 09, Dan Goodman wrote:
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Duaine & Laura Hechler escribió:
Do I dare say it.
It's beginning to sound like the devs for KDE 4 are "doing the MS way".
Yes, we know there are bugs - however - it's good enough - so - we're going to release it anyway.
What is your contribution to improve the situation ? If you like to be part of the problem and not part of the solution I would suggest you to stop posting.
"Do I dare..."? I dare say that users should not have to be developers of a specific package to make judgments and comparisons of the packages they try, or have committed to.
[SIDEBAR: "I grow old, I grow old...I shall wear my trousers rolled. I shall wear grey flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. Do I dare to eat a peach?" -- T.S. Eliot, "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock".]
It is precisely this sort of knee-jerk defensiveness, and unwillingness to admit that KDE4, in its present form, is itself more of a problem than a solution to many of us who have tried it, coupled with the early death of KDE3, that made me decide NOT to try to work through the problems, because the vision that was articulated was quite clearly that we will get what the developers want, and our input is not required or listened to, since we are not working on it and don't represent the opinions of the majority of the initial focus group that used to get quoted frequently as the justification for the new paradigm.
If I have to choose between "like it or lump it; be one of us or shut up and go away", and something that provides me with a clean upgrade path, for data, apps, learning new interfaces, whatever...I will almost always put my energy into the choice that looks more like a cooperative effort, even at the expense of some "cool" features. Because if the developers can get that right, and/or if they willingly accept feedback from their user community, then IMNERHO they are more likely to deliver more working "cool" features in the long run.
Conversely, if I have to leap through hoops for a migration, I usually reason that either I must believe that we are headed somewhere near to where I want to end up, or else I figure I might as well try something different...after all, I am going to have to learn something almost entirely new either way, since the new KDE is mostly a replacement, rather than an addition, to KDE3 behavior. So why not jump ship entirely? It won't take any more effort (maybe less) than staying the course with KDE.
Who remembers "New Coke"? It was clearly determined by Coca-Cola management that consumers clearly preferred the sweeter taste of New Coke to Coke Classic, as it is now called. That lasted for about six months after it was implemented, even after Coca-Cola pulled the original Coke entirely ("we need the shelf space to meet the demand for New Coke -- we can't support both, and this is clearly better!").
Let me draw a map:
Coke (Classic) ~= KDE3 New Coke ~= KDE4
I may be wrong in my prediction, but this is a proposition I would put my money on, if Las Vegas had a line on KDE4 vs. KDE3/Gnome/the rest of the field.
The price of free software is NOT to have to work on an app in order to have an opinion about what one would like it to do...even if the developers do not care to listen.
Sorry, but for me, you have just re-enforced my belief that the developers are more interested in their "vision thing" and the large new user community that they *think* it will draw, than they are in meeting the needs of the existing KDE user community -- those of us who initially chose KDE over Gnome, fluxbox, etc. because we accepted in implicit faith that our input about our experiences might be at least considered as reasonable, whether or not the developers choose to develop that item.
Big article about the coming showdown between Gnome and KDE, according to an email I got today from Linux Mag. Perhaps they have taken a wide enough sample to disprove the KDE developers' conjecture that only a handful of us are unhappy about the way the 3->4 migration has been handled. Think I'll go read it now...
Oh, wait! That's right. Concerning your comment that if I didn't like the New KDE and wasn't working on it, then I should shut up and leave. I DID leave...KDE. Because I don't have time to work on every piece of software I want to use, and I don't have faith in the desirability of this new paradigm that is intentionally made to be a total break with the past. And it was only after several people posted complaints about the new interface that posts started appearing saying that you can always configure it to act like it used to for you, if you give it the right secret combinations...
If that is true, then why wasn't that (old style desktop; icons on the desktop if I want them; a kicker replacement that could be easily customized the way *I*, not you, wanted them) -- why wasn't that made available as an easy toggle-switch change, rather than trying to make it easier for users to use the new interface than to try to hang on to what they were comfortable with until they reached a comfort level with the new. "Make the old way almost impossible, and the users will prefer to take the time to learn the new. Otherwise, they will never get to where we want them to be." Sound familiar? I can google where I first heard that response if you want, but it has been said more than once about KDE4.
And just out of curiosity, why does/did the KDE team have such a strong belief that *no one* wants desktop icons ever, or at least will never want them once they learn how cool KDE4 is? That was another add-on how-to to get KDE4 to do some of the things some of us *did* want, at least until we became *sold* on the new paradigm.
Make no mistake, I wouldn't be here, writing this, if I sincerely felt that an easy migration path would be provided, and that the new paradigm would be introduced alongside what I knew, not as a complete new look and feel. I started out really wanting KDE4 to be better than KDE3 *for my needs as a current user*.
You go your way, and I will go mine...but I would be running, working out bugs if necessary, whatever else, with KDE4 still, if I hadn't tried it, didn't like it, and was told I couldn't have anything of KDE3 in it, (until late in the game, when the criticism began to mount).
And even if the original posters are "outsiders" by your definition, what does it say that to outsiders, the rollout of KDE4 has the look and feel of way the M$ Aero desktop interface was introduced. And don't tell me KDE4 is better. It doesn't matter, if outsiders (the only place your new users can come from), decide that even dedicated users are getting the same push to upgrade with KDE that feels like deja vu (all over again).
Another example: if I wanted a Mercedes Benz G-wagen, but was treated arrogantly in their showroom, even if I was a happy driver of their other SUV, I would quickly learn to make my peace with either a Porsche or a BMW with a configuration somewhat similar to what I was used to.
Just because this type of attitude (work on it or shut up) towards the user community comes free of cost, that doesn't mean I, or anyone else owe it to you to work on the product.
Someone must, but if only those who do are considered true users, worthy to try to change the package's direction, then you would have an even smaller base. Or did I miss something in your license that goes beyond GPL, that I agreed to become a developer if I wanted any enhancements or changes?
Been there, done that, and have the stripes to prove it...
(Nietzsche: "God is dead!" -- God: "Nietzsche is dead!")
-- Dan Goodman Senior Systems Administrator
Well written and bravo, Dan. Thank you for your post! -- I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. -Will Rogers -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 14 April 09, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Duaine & Laura Hechler escribió:
Do I dare say it.
It's beginning to sound like the devs for KDE 4 are "doing the MS way".
Yes, we know there are bugs - however - it's good enough - so - we're going to release it anyway.
What is your contribution to improve the situation ? If you like to be part of the problem and not part of the solution I would suggest you to stop posting.
Their "contribution", you sanctimonious ass, is that they're saying they're not happy with the way KDE4 is going. It appears, to them and many others, that it's being made to look, run, and behave like M$ software. Simply stating things like this and of course naming some things that bothers them about it, is "helping". How, you ask (because you seem to be prejudiced against anyone ragging on your favorite desktop environment)? It lets the devs (possibly) know they're screwing up a good thing. Part of the "solution" is for the devs to hear that people aren't happy with the way things may be going. Did that not occur to you, or was that asking too much from you? Oh, by the way, you have no right to *tell* *anyone* to quit posting, so STFU if you don't like it! -- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
In <49E4AA69.60507@att.net>, Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:
It's beginning to sound like the devs for KDE 4 are "doing the MS way".
Yes, we know there are bugs - however - it's good enough - so - we're going to release it anyway.
That's not a MS-ism. That's a core open-source philosophy: "Release early; release often.". Also, while it was a bit lost in the hullabaloo around the releases, KDE 4.0 was released as "for developers only" and KDE 4.1 was released as "for early adopters". I stayed away from these releases, and I'm quite happy with KDE 4.2. I do understand that there are still some fairly critical (for other) pieces missing, but it is my daily desktop and has been since Debian and openSUSE KDE teams provided KDE 4.2 packages in experimental and OBS respectively. In summary, I'd say that KDE 4.2.2 is stable but not feature complete. I'm not sure 4.3 will be feature complete either--there are a lot of missing features. Of course some thing people are considering missing features aren't part of KDE. E.g. k3b, amarok, kdiff3, and kaffeine aren't "part of KDE", they are simply applications that use the KDE libraries. Surely no one expects the KDE developers to improve ALL the applications that use the libraries they produced. It will be unfortunate if openSUSE stops security support for KDE 3.5.10 before KDE 4 is feature complete AND stable. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
On Tuesday April 14 2009, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
...
That's not a MS-ism. That's a core open-source philosophy: "Release early; release often.".
Not really. The injunction to "release early, release often" is a core principle of _Agile Development_. Agile development may be the norm in open-source circles, but it's used by successful commercial / closed-source organizations as well. And, I assume, it's not used in _all_ open-source projects. For example, I don't think Linux kernel releases (final, non-development / non-testing releases) are done on a release early, release often basis.
...
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Tuesday April 14 2009, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
...
That's not a MS-ism. That's a core open-source philosophy: "Release early; release often.".
Not really.
The injunction to "release early, release often" is a core principle of _Agile Development_. Agile development may be the norm in open-source circles, but it's used by successful commercial / closed-source organizations as well.
I follow that principle as well. In my organization, I maintain rapid release cycles. This ensures that the users get the most up to date items for their requests. Though some enhancements or bugs may not have been fixed yet, they know that we will be approaching them. (We do test all features and document what does/does not work in the systems.) This is a philosophy which is opposite to waiting until every last bug is squashed and every feature/enhancement is complete. As long as I communicate with the users as to what to expect - and calculations are not incorrect - then they are happier with the shorter release cycle. -- kai 2 + 2 > 4 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
In <200904140953.49845.rschulz@sonic.net>, Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Tuesday April 14 2009, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
That's not a MS-ism. That's a core open-source philosophy: "Release early; release often.".
Not really.
The injunction to "release early, release often" is a core principle of _Agile Development_.
Not originally. In 1997, ESR--who basically coined the term open-source--used "Release Early, Release Often" as the title on one chapter of his "The Cathedral and the Bazaar". The paper itself admits that not all open-source projects use this philosophy. However, ESR's use and the spread of "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" made the phrase itself a mantra of many open-source projects. "Agile Development" was around before then, possibly going all they way back to 1974. However, it did not have signification mindshare until with Agile Manifesto was published in 2001.
For example, I don't think Linux kernel releases (final, non-development / non-testing releases) are done on a release early, release often basis.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to exclude development / testing releases. Still, between 2.6.19 and 2.6.20, there were 7 ".20-rc?" versions, 6 ".19.?" versions, and only 72 days. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
In <49E4AA69.60507@att.net>, Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:
It's beginning to sound like the devs for KDE 4 are "doing the MS way".
Yes, we know there are bugs - however - it's good enough - so - we're going to release it anyway.
That's not a MS-ism. That's a core open-source philosophy: "Release early; release often.".
Yes, release early and often into the unstable, constantly evolving repositories for developers and committed testers...not release early and often into the stable branches...and if that is the belief of the KDE team, to release early and often to end users, then I think they have a different understanding of the meaning of release early and often than most of use in the Linux world do.
Also, while it was a bit lost in the hullabaloo around the releases, KDE 4.0 was released as "for developers only" and KDE 4.1 was released as "for early adopters". I stayed away from these releases, and I'm quite happy with KDE 4.2. ...
Yes, and KDE 4.1 was the default/preferred interface for 11.1, and I consider myself "an early adopter" but I either want something reasonably quickly fixed in that version, or it isn't ready for prime time beyond the committed community. I was an early adopter of 11.1, but nowhere else did encounter problems anything like what happened with 4.1...frankly, it was not ready for prime time, but spokesperson for the KDE team said that they felt it was necessary for them to have a larger base to test on in order to debug it faster. Sorry, as an early adopter, I agreed that I might get some bugs, but also felt that part of the deal was that the developers were seeking feedback from those adopters, not just bug reports and silence about problems that go well beyond the usual buglist.
In summary, I'd say that KDE 4.2.2 is stable but not feature complete. I'm not sure 4.3 will be feature complete either--there are a lot of missing features. And many of those features are features that we, as users, rely on, so if we are forced or led to become early adopters, at least we should have a reasonable expectation that the look and feel can be altered gradually, as I learn it, not all or nothing style.
Of course some thing people are
considering missing features aren't part of KDE. E.g. k3b, amarok, kdiff3, and kaffeine aren't "part of KDE", they are simply applications that use the KDE libraries. Surely no one expects the KDE developers to improve ALL the applications that use the libraries they produced.
That's right, most of us don't expect the KDE developers to improve these add-on packages. That is not the only issue, and it cannot be repeatedly brought up as if it is the only, or the principal, source of frustrations.
It will be unfortunate if openSUSE stops security support for KDE 3.5.10 before KDE 4 is feature complete AND stable.
The whole way KDE 3 and its user base are being treated is unfortunate. And it leave me feeling I made an unfortunate choice at my last major upgrade, whether I went with KDE3 or KDE4, precisely because the team stresses over and over that they can only support KDE4, and that we as users need to run an incomplete and often unstable version long enough for them to get it to where they want to. And even then, wait longer before the add-on packages can catch up to the library changes. And a last minute commitment to 3.5.10, given the historical record, isn't enough to restore my faith that I will be able to continue on that path for as long as I choose, until I say I am satisfied with both the KDE, and its add-ons. I have read the arguments about why the API's to the libraries had to change so radically, and that piece I do understand and accept, although I would prefer that it weren't necessary. But the corollary is that I feel that I should have the right to a stable and secure, and addon-complete, yes -- until such time as I, not they, feel KDE4 has reached that state. Now if KDE4 had been running with lots of happy and impressed users for some time, stable and secure, I could understand if they didn't want me to continue to drain their resources with support for 3. But while KDE4 hasn't been stable long enough for a reasonable stabilization of the addons to occur -- heck, it isn't even there itself now, at 4.2, and isn't likely to be there even in 4.3. Doesn't that imply that serious addon migrations will only begin when we get to 4.4, or whatever release is relatively stable and secure, especially in the API and test reproducibility areas? So a year or more til the DE is stable and secure, and six months more maybe for addons to come onboard, lets see, have I really been hearing a commitment to fully support KDE3 until then? If that is the position, it needs to be explicitly committed to by the team, before I am willing to run KDE 3 or 4 for the next year and half, or more. -- Dan Goodman Senior Systems Administrator -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 14 April 2009 10:23:21 am Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:
Do I dare say it.
It's beginning to sound like the devs for KDE 4 are "doing the MS way".
Yes, we know there are bugs - however - it's good enough - so - we're going to release it anyway.
Haven't looked at KDE 4 much - yet, Duaine
Well, you better do. Nothing better then own experience. I'm running it on 32 bit Athlon XP 1600, and 64 bit Athlon 3500 and it works. Of course on a 64 bit machine it is fast, while on 32 bit speed is not that convincing, but it is not worse than KDE3 after recent tuneups: http://en.opensuse.org/KDE_Configure_Desktop/General/Desktop/Nvidia_FX5200 Note that it is valid for FX5200 PCI 256MB only. There is no comments about any other hardware. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 14 April 2009 17:23:21 Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:
Yes, we know there are bugs - however - it's good enough - so - we're going to release it anyway.
That was exactly what we (speaking with my @kde.org hat on) did with KDE 4.0 in January 2008. At some point you have to let your baby take a few steps on its own and fall over. Since then we have been iteratively refining it with major revisions every 6 months and minor bugfix releases approximately every month. At the same time KDE continued to release KDE 3.5.10 and has continued to do the most necessary bugfixes to 3.5 branch. openSUSE (hat switch), unlike most other distros, chose not to hurry everyone to KDE 4 by shipping both versions together, co-installable and their apps runnable in parallel. This was a lot of extra work for us, but we did it to give you the users the best of both worlds. We are convinced that for 11.2, KDE 4.3.x (at the time 11.2 will be released, it will be 18 months after the 'release it anyway' stage) will be strong enough to remove the KDE 3 desktop session. So don't equate KDE 4 with KDE 4.0, even if you grazed your metaphorical knee with KDE 4.0.4 on 11.0, and give KDE 4.2.2 (available for 11.2 here http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/KDE4#Factory_KDE_Project) a try. Will
So don't equate KDE 4 with KDE 4.0, even if you grazed your metaphorical knee with KDE 4.0.4 on 11.0, and give KDE 4.2.2 (available for 11.2 here http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/KDE4#Factory_KDE_Project) a try.
I like how you stated this :-) I agree, 4.0.4 was.. .wobbly to say the least, but 4.2.2 is pretty darned good, and given what's coming from the trunk commits, I'd say that almost all (but not quite all) complaints should have been attended to. It works and it works well. if this is the track we are heading on for 4.3, it will be a really nice desktop for openSUSE 11.2. C>\. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (11)
-
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. -
Clayton -
Cristian Rodríguez -
Dan Goodman -
Duaine & Laura Hechler -
Ed Harrison -
JB2 -
Kai Ponte -
Rajko M. -
Randall R Schulz -
Will Stephenson