On 14 April 09, Dan Goodman wrote:
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Duaine & Laura Hechler escribió:
Do I dare say it.
It's beginning to sound like the devs for KDE 4 are "doing the MS way".
Yes, we know there are bugs - however - it's good enough - so - we're going to release it anyway.
What is your contribution to improve the situation ? If you like to be part of the problem and not part of the solution I would suggest you to stop posting.
"Do I dare..."? I dare say that users should not have to be developers of a specific package to make judgments and comparisons of the packages they try, or have committed to.
[SIDEBAR: "I grow old, I grow old...I shall wear my trousers rolled. I shall wear grey flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. Do I dare to eat a peach?" -- T.S. Eliot, "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock".]
It is precisely this sort of knee-jerk defensiveness, and unwillingness to admit that KDE4, in its present form, is itself more of a problem than a solution to many of us who have tried it, coupled with the early death of KDE3, that made me decide NOT to try to work through the problems, because the vision that was articulated was quite clearly that we will get what the developers want, and our input is not required or listened to, since we are not working on it and don't represent the opinions of the majority of the initial focus group that used to get quoted frequently as the justification for the new paradigm.
If I have to choose between "like it or lump it; be one of us or shut up and go away", and something that provides me with a clean upgrade path, for data, apps, learning new interfaces, whatever...I will almost always put my energy into the choice that looks more like a cooperative effort, even at the expense of some "cool" features. Because if the developers can get that right, and/or if they willingly accept feedback from their user community, then IMNERHO they are more likely to deliver more working "cool" features in the long run.
Conversely, if I have to leap through hoops for a migration, I usually reason that either I must believe that we are headed somewhere near to where I want to end up, or else I figure I might as well try something different...after all, I am going to have to learn something almost entirely new either way, since the new KDE is mostly a replacement, rather than an addition, to KDE3 behavior. So why not jump ship entirely? It won't take any more effort (maybe less) than staying the course with KDE.
Who remembers "New Coke"? It was clearly determined by Coca-Cola management that consumers clearly preferred the sweeter taste of New Coke to Coke Classic, as it is now called. That lasted for about six months after it was implemented, even after Coca-Cola pulled the original Coke entirely ("we need the shelf space to meet the demand for New Coke -- we can't support both, and this is clearly better!").
Let me draw a map:
Coke (Classic) ~= KDE3 New Coke ~= KDE4
I may be wrong in my prediction, but this is a proposition I would put my money on, if Las Vegas had a line on KDE4 vs. KDE3/Gnome/the rest of the field.
The price of free software is NOT to have to work on an app in order to have an opinion about what one would like it to do...even if the developers do not care to listen.
Sorry, but for me, you have just re-enforced my belief that the developers are more interested in their "vision thing" and the large new user community that they *think* it will draw, than they are in meeting the needs of the existing KDE user community -- those of us who initially chose KDE over Gnome, fluxbox, etc. because we accepted in implicit faith that our input about our experiences might be at least considered as reasonable, whether or not the developers choose to develop that item.
Big article about the coming showdown between Gnome and KDE, according to an email I got today from Linux Mag. Perhaps they have taken a wide enough sample to disprove the KDE developers' conjecture that only a handful of us are unhappy about the way the 3->4 migration has been handled. Think I'll go read it now...
Oh, wait! That's right. Concerning your comment that if I didn't like the New KDE and wasn't working on it, then I should shut up and leave. I DID leave...KDE. Because I don't have time to work on every piece of software I want to use, and I don't have faith in the desirability of this new paradigm that is intentionally made to be a total break with the past. And it was only after several people posted complaints about the new interface that posts started appearing saying that you can always configure it to act like it used to for you, if you give it the right secret combinations...
If that is true, then why wasn't that (old style desktop; icons on the desktop if I want them; a kicker replacement that could be easily customized the way *I*, not you, wanted them) -- why wasn't that made available as an easy toggle-switch change, rather than trying to make it easier for users to use the new interface than to try to hang on to what they were comfortable with until they reached a comfort level with the new. "Make the old way almost impossible, and the users will prefer to take the time to learn the new. Otherwise, they will never get to where we want them to be." Sound familiar? I can google where I first heard that response if you want, but it has been said more than once about KDE4.
And just out of curiosity, why does/did the KDE team have such a strong belief that *no one* wants desktop icons ever, or at least will never want them once they learn how cool KDE4 is? That was another add-on how-to to get KDE4 to do some of the things some of us *did* want, at least until we became *sold* on the new paradigm.
Make no mistake, I wouldn't be here, writing this, if I sincerely felt that an easy migration path would be provided, and that the new paradigm would be introduced alongside what I knew, not as a complete new look and feel. I started out really wanting KDE4 to be better than KDE3 *for my needs as a current user*.
You go your way, and I will go mine...but I would be running, working out bugs if necessary, whatever else, with KDE4 still, if I hadn't tried it, didn't like it, and was told I couldn't have anything of KDE3 in it, (until late in the game, when the criticism began to mount).
And even if the original posters are "outsiders" by your definition, what does it say that to outsiders, the rollout of KDE4 has the look and feel of way the M$ Aero desktop interface was introduced. And don't tell me KDE4 is better. It doesn't matter, if outsiders (the only place your new users can come from), decide that even dedicated users are getting the same push to upgrade with KDE that feels like deja vu (all over again).
Another example: if I wanted a Mercedes Benz G-wagen, but was treated arrogantly in their showroom, even if I was a happy driver of their other SUV, I would quickly learn to make my peace with either a Porsche or a BMW with a configuration somewhat similar to what I was used to.
Just because this type of attitude (work on it or shut up) towards the user community comes free of cost, that doesn't mean I, or anyone else owe it to you to work on the product.
Someone must, but if only those who do are considered true users, worthy to try to change the package's direction, then you would have an even smaller base. Or did I miss something in your license that goes beyond GPL, that I agreed to become a developer if I wanted any enhancements or changes?
Been there, done that, and have the stripes to prove it...
(Nietzsche: "God is dead!" -- God: "Nietzsche is dead!")
-- Dan Goodman Senior Systems Administrator
Well written and bravo, Dan. Thank you for your post! -- I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. -Will Rogers -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org