Top posting intentionally, to make clear this is from me as one of the Forums Team members. Op maandag 30 oktober 2017 17:15:45 CET schreef Anthony Youngman:
On 29/10/17 22:41, Richard Brown wrote:
On 29 October 2017 at 17:52, jdd@dodin.org
wrote: Le 29/10/2017 à 16:31, Richard Brown a écrit :
- 14.8 _thousand_ members of the openSUSE group on facebook - 29.5 _thousand_ followers of the openSUSE group on Google+
yes and? do you really *discuss* openSUSE on Facebook or Google+? this only mean many people once got a look.
Yes, the openSUSE Group has regular discussions. Today someone is discussing issues they've had with upgrades, yesterday someone was discussing Tumbleweed on an iMac (10 comments in the thread - 58 reactions (eg. +1, Happy Faces, etc)), openSUSE from the Windows Store, (10 comments in the thread, 25 reactions), fstab questions, UEFI questions from a new member (I do like how Facebook highlights new joiners of the group)
It's a very active list
- 38 _thousand_ members of the openSUSE forums
how many active at the same time? The forum itself say "Active Members 1,728", so the hole forum is no more active than this very list!!
1728 'active' means 1728 people posted in the last month
Flippin' 'eck! That's 600 posts a DAY! How do you keep on top of THAT!?
With a dozen of people moderating the forums. Yes, 600 posts a day, and even more in the past ( #posts has decreased where #users has increased ).
If we were to judge opensuse@opensuse.org by the same measurement, there are under 300 active members of this list. The forums are over 4x more active than this list.
It's not about activity, it's about content. We (the Forums Team) do not allow threads to dwell and drift in all directions.
And how many people on those forums read ALL of the posts?
Like said: a dozen of (global ) moderators. That communicate through their own ( non public ) area in the forums.
Okay, I only read a fraction of the posts here, but I have a far better chance of keeping on top of everything here, than I would in some of those other places.
On top of what? We're talking about a relatively small group of active subscribers.
Of all the openSUSE forums, social media outlets, etc I monitor, opensuse@ is the only one repeatedly shrinking in size. Even our more specialised, technical lists are growing at a rate comparable to every other part of the project. And yet opensuse@ consistently fails to reflect the growth in the Project as a whole.
Because the Powers That Be seem to want a Unicorn? I've been thinking, and I get the impression that this list will NEVER be able to satisfy what the powers that be want, because what they want is impossible.
The Powers That Be ? Come on. Well, OK, let's take that path. Compare factory@ to opensuse@ ....
I agree the tone of this very list is pretty often harsh, but you do nothing to make it smoother, on the contrary. If we should consider yours arguments, all of us here should resign and go to an other distribution.
All? No, I most certainly do not want that
Neither do I. But be fair, almost every thread in opensuse@ drifts away from the OP. Often even after the OP has indicated that his issue has been solved.
I would be pleased though if some people left, yes. Specifically those who complain and in the same breadth admit unwillingness to do anything to help openSUSE resolve that which they complain about.
You mean people like me? Why yes, I do moan about certain things *SUSE, and I'm unlikely to do anything about it myself. I don't have a clue about web design, how am I supposed to do anything about the website?
Oh - and as other people on this list will attest, I DO do stuff for SUSE. It's just that I do it upstream, and actually I'm surprised at the regular bouquets I seem to get for it (I shouldn't be, it's a very visible role. Bit unfair on the people behind the scenes, though).
I don't think it's unfair to wish for that. In a volunteer organisation, having complainers hang around and not doing anything positive to remedy the problems they perceive are just a drain on the motivation of all the other volunteers.
Depends. A VERY BIG depends.
If you were working on something on your spare time, and knew there was a mailinglist full of grumpy old people who dislikes the majority of what you were working on, would you be subscribed to this list? would you want to talk to them? would you encourage others to talk to them?
This list has an image problem.
I concur here. Too many people who refuse to use the ML for reasons including terms like "incrowd", "abomination", "bullying", "aggressive" .
It's the responsibility of the regular residents of this list to correct that image problem > I cannot correct it, because I downright agree with the negative perception so many people have on this list.
Not least down to the powers that be wanting a Unicorn! I'll explain. You described this list as a "community support list". Is that a "community SUPPORT list", or a "COMMUNITY support list". Because if what you want is a "community SUPPORT list", you might as well shut the whole lot down right now. Because the only way you are going to get a SUPPORT forum, is to PAY people to provide that support ...
Sheer nonsense, none of the Forums Team is payed to do the work, not by SUSE, not by others,
And you can see how I am regularly treated on this list to see how I might have come to that conclusion ;)
Well, I'm sorry, but my impression of you is a Jobsworth who thinks he owns the place. Harsh but true. So what do you expect? Sorry.
But if on the other hand, you want a COMMUNITY support list, you need to encourage said community. So what if you own the place - you need to be the jovial "mine host" (by all means keep a baseball bat conveniently hidden under the bar to keep order!).
From almost dead back to a vibrant community and the Board would not have encouraged said community ? Now, as a board member, we encouraged community members to step up and take over our infrastructure. Where what now is the Heroes team is doing a very fine job.
If people are not prepared to address that image problem directly, I will continue to try and focus the attention of this list on its official intended function as a support mailinglist, in the hope that it such a focus might, in time, bring some life and growth back into this list.
IT WON'T. IT WILL KILL IT STONE DEAD. Is this what you want? ...
Have a look at the forums. We move whatever is not on topic to Chit-chat, completely off topic to the Soapbox. Doing so makes the forums to a quite efficient knowledge base.
Noob: I have a problem. X doesn't work.
... crickets ... crickets
Noob: Is there anyone out there? Noob2: I'm here - I'm waiting for an answer to my problem, can't help you with yours sorry. Noob3: Me too ... Noob4: Me three ...
... crickets ... crickets
If you focus on the people ASKING for support, this list is dead. WHERE IS THAT SUPPORT GOING TO COME FROM!!!???
Could be from the same people hanging around there now. They have the knowledge.
If, on the other hand, you focus on the devs, the greybeards, the people WHO CAN HELP, then this list stands a chance.
It does IMHO. But it requires that not every thread dwells in all directions, subject changes more often than not.
STOP DRIVING THE PEOPLE WHO CAN HELP AWAY! You actively told us that was what you were doing!!!
I could as easily shout "Start making this list one that noobs can find their answers. People search mailing lists archives for solutions and have to go through endless threads with extensive posts.
As I said, you need to be the jovial Mine Host. Your job is to welcome people and speak softly but carry a big stick.
May I suggest the following rules: 1) Try not to take offence. 2) DO NOT intentionally give offence 3) Help the noobs
Having read the ML for months now, reading the way the board ( chosen by members ) has been addressed ...... tsk.
The best hangouts are those where you don't notice the bouncers are doing their job. You should quietly reminding the regulars if they step over the line. You should be looking out for people who are out to cause trouble. And if the regulars are raucous in the background, let them get on with it.
There are ONLY TWO metrics by which this group should be judged. The first is pretty meaningless on its own - how many people come to this list with a question. The second is far more important - what proportion of them go away satisfied with an answer.
You're forgetting one number: how many people refuse to use this ML ...
AND IF YOU ARE NOT A REGULAR HERE YOU WON'T HAVE A CLUE WHAT THOSE STATS ARE! That's why it's your job to keep the troublemakers out. Which does NOT include the regulars having a moan in the corner! :-)
We need a central point to discuss the project and it's derivatives, before going to specialized places for the action.
For the Project, there is opensuse-project@
For technical topics, there is opensuse-factory@
Those the non-specialized places. Not this channel - talking about things in this channel is a almost always a waste of time whenever the outcome is dependant on one of our volunteer contributors to do anything about it.
And if you know where these things are supposed to be discussed, you can point us to it - maybe we don't know where to go. Or maybe you can point them at us - that might be more effective.
The quicker people realise that are start engaging with the rest of our vibrant community, the better.
What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander. If you want us to engage with them, maybe you should also be trying to get them to engage with us, rather than actively trying to drive them away!>
Please, stop being so stuck in your old ways.
We're cynical greybeards - we've seen it all before.
Well, at 57 years old, I'm a greybeard too. And it's never occurred to me that I've seen it all before, because I haven't.
We've learnt by BITTER experience that usually "new == WORSE". I've got a magazine in front of me right now that says "ditch these dangerous old unsupported apps" (including Picasa). For Picasa, we're supposed to move to the online Google Photos. My internet is unreliable. When it works (admittedly most of the day, just not in the evening when I want it) it is running pretty close to the maximum theoretical speed, which gives me an upload speed of about 0.5 MBit. At 30 MBYTE per photo, how long is that going to take me to upload a day's shoot of, say 100 photos? That's before Google Photos complains that my photos are far too high a resolution for it to cope with. WE HAVE A REASON FOR BEING CYNICAL.
Please, will YOU ask yourself, whether what you want is achievable. If you want this to be a support group, then one way or another you are going to have to pay for it. You can either pay people hard cash to provide said support, or you can provide a COMMUNITY AREA where greybeards, devs, etc etc LIKE to hang out. There's no other way round it. And by objecting to what WE want to discuss, you are NOT creating that nice community area.
Let me give you an example of which I have personal experience. I was on a - not that noisy - technical mailing list. Maybe 100-200 messages a week, mostly tech, that every now and then veered off into totally irrelevant chit-chat. The powers that be decided that this chit-chat was putting people off, and tried to force it off into its own list. The chit-chat was maybe 1/3 the list volume, probably a bit less. The problem was yes it did kill the chit-chat as planned. But it killed the tech list too - the drop in tech volume was immediate and obvious. I'm now on THREE lists that get maybe one thread a week between them!
Cheers, Wol
-- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org