On 28/10/17 14:32, Richard Brown wrote:
On 28 October 2017 at 15:22, Carlos E. R.
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On Saturday, 2017-10-28 at 15:15 +0200, Richard Brown wrote:
On 27 October 2017 at 17:37, Wols Lists <> wrote:
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For the majority of my time in the openSUSE Project, I chose not to be subscribed to this list because I was fed up of the 'hive of scum and villainy' that it had become.
I strongly object to your view of us. :-/
As a regular here, I would expect you to do so. But it's a very, very, common opinion held by the majority of the people I have spoken to about this list. "What are you going to do about the mess in opensuse@" is a very common question raised at face to face meetings, such as openSUSE Conferences, for several years. And it is a common opinion expressed repeatedly by newcomers to the Project who have often approached me (first as a Board member years ago, and still since becoming Chairman), feeling that this list is a toxic stain upon the Project compared to the other communication channels which the project
So you (and others) want everything to be clean, hygienic, and basically not a thing out of place. I think biologists have a word for that - unnatural. And doctors are beginning to realise that places like that are probably very unhealthy - in fact it's not "cleanliness is next to godliness", it's more like "cleanliness is toxic".
In the past, I used to just advise them to unsubscribe, as I had, and every other contributor I know had.
Hmmm ..... Would you advise people to unsubscribe from places like LKML? Okay, large numbers of people have, the volume of stuff that is no interest to the majority has driven many people away, but that doesn't mean it isn't valuable. Surely there was other advice you could have given, like "just ignore most of it"? I probably read maybe 10% or less of the stuff here, I know how to recognise stuff I have no interest in. I joined in this thread because the subject line resonated - I really do think the current home page is awful.
But now I feel obligated to do something about this list, that's why you see me and occasionally the odd other Board member trying our best to steer things in a more positive direction when things go off the rails.
It's exhausting work, and obviously it's not welcome by everyone here, but I can assure you that our efforts our grounded by very real concerns, by very real people. And I do like to think things are better today than they were 2 years ago, or 6 months ago.
Then dare I say you should take a leaf out of PJ's book? Groklaw was VERY heavily moderated. And yes, I gather it was hard work for the people working behind the scenes. But most regular contributors hardly noticed. She simply demanded that people were respectful, honest, and backed up everything with facts. The level of off-topic conversation was amazing, but it was a very pleasant place to be. I know you can't moderate a mailing list so easily, but to be honest (and maybe that is because I'm careful what I read, and also because I'm pretty new here :-) I haven't seen ANYthing here that merits the way you describe this list as a mess. Maybe that's because you have been working behind the scenes.
But for some old timers the same old objections keep coming up, so I think it's fair to share a few home truths from beyond the bubble that is easy to get lost in if opensuse@ is your only view on the openSUSE Project.
I resemble that remark! :-) There's a saying you ought to remember next time you want to complain about a thread like this - "the best customers are those who complain". The people who come back time and again without comment are great, those who come once and never come again are no great loss, but those who complain complain because they want to see the product get better! THAT is why threads like this matter. The current home page is a marketer's wet dream. But we're fed up with being sold the latest "Wonder Solution" that doesn't work. I remember looking for *INFORMATION* on the web site. Could I find it? NO! It was just a sales pitch to get me to download the distro - no thanks I've already got it! I've been using SuSE since - I think - v5.3. That's a LONG time. I joined this mailing list so I had easy access to support for problems I have, and I've had that support! But when I see senior bods getting upset at what I think is valid criticism, it leaves me wondering where things are going. To sum up, don't take things personally, if the corporate message isn't getting across don't blame the recipients, and don't get the water cannon out if there isn't a flame war going on! :-) And please don't tell us "you can discuss this here, that over there, and the other somewhere else". I have too many mailing lists I just skim, without adding any more. And I have several (admittedly not that high volume) that I read every single message and I help other people on. I want ONE place, that's "all about SuSE". And this list, to me, seems *supportive* of SuSE. :-) Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org