On 10/28/2017 08:15 AM, Richard Brown wrote:
As a volunteer organisation, the first audience which we will always seek to serve and ensure our served well are the contributors of the openSUSE Project
Just to clarify, you only want those that can contribute but no "John Do" average home computer users to use openSUSE?
While I do not like the term, the people you describe as "the great unwashed" by and large, do not contribute to the openSUSE Project. They rarely file bugs, and when they do they are often so lacking in information they are unactionable.
I have tried posting bugs. However ot being a "techie" it is no simple thing. They want information that they might as well ask for in Martian. I have no idea what they are talking about.
They do not fix bugs, though they are prepared to complain about them. They do not add, maintain, or support packages in the distribution, though they are prepared to complain about the ones that are present, or the ones that are not.
I can barely program my DVR. Fixing bugs is WAY beyond my abilities.
They do not contribute to the website, though as this thread shows they are prepared to complain about it.
I can do some HTML and if you would like I would be glad to send you some of my websites for your perusal. I'm probably not as good as many others in the devs group but...............
There are some questions you, and anyone who agrees with you about the use of mailinglist needs to ask yourself
- Why, after 12 years, do the*vast* majority of openSUSE's contributors NOT subscribe toopensuse@opensuse.org?
When I first started using SuSE way back I tried asking questions. The answers were by techie types that wanted me to do things like I had helped Linus write the darned thing in the beginning. Way over my abilities and understanding. Stuff that would have driven off someone less determined than myself. I stopped asking and just kibitzed for a LONG time. As I blew up installs, many times, and had to format and start over I learned a LOT of what not to do. Along the way I got be able to run without to much hastle. I listened and learned a few things from the list. As I've figured some issues out I've also tried to help others when I can, which is seldom.
- How come, despite the openSUSE contributor base has increased many times over in the last 12 years, has the engagement of contributors on this list decreased steadily over the same time?
When all you have in a group are those that generally can run the OS without help what do you expect. Some years ago I was part of a group that tried to help others going through the same things we had/were. As most of the time it was just us and we had heard each others stories hundreds of time it devolved into a BS session. Soon we disbanded.
I would suggest that any obvious point to consider would be the kind of attitude that you, and others, express in your post above and in this thread in general.
Well, I can't speak for everyone but I don't think I hae expressed any attitude other than suggesting it might be a good idea to try getting new users from average users.
Complaints, when not backed up with a sincere willingness to at least help in some way with the resolution of such complaints, are a constant drain on the motivation of our contributors.
How would you suggest I help.
I've been contributing to openSUSE for 12 years, since its inception, and like many of you a user even before that. There was a time when this list was relevant to the day to day life of the openSUSE Project.
It is no longer. The day to day operation of the openSUSE project has long been coordinated via other lists, and will continue to do so, because that is where those doing the work choose to coordinate their efforts. For the majority of my time in the openSUSE Project, I chose not to be subscribed to this list because I was fed up of the 'hive of scum and villainy' that it had become. It's only since becoming Chairman that I felt duty bound to at least pay some attention to this list, though, to be frank, I think the 'hive' moniker is often well earned.
My efforts to encourage this list to focus on its original role and function as a support list is an overt effort to try and salvage some sustainable future for this list.
See my bit about the support group. It explains a lot.
The alternative, as I have already raised in the past on this list, is the very real possibility that the elected leadership of this project may decide that it is no longer worth the hassle of hosting & managing this list and it's repeated tendency for toxic debates with no actionable conclusion.
In the same way that during 2014-2015 I did my best to steer things to avoid the death of the regular release distribution, I'm doing what I can to steer things to avoid the death of this malinglist. My gentle reminders to keep threads focused on support topics are an overt push in that endeavour. Pushing back just makes me less willing to help. Which probably won't do this list much good in the long run if and when the Board discusses tidying up the mailinglists, as the Board does on an annual basis.
I'd appreciate your co-operation and encourage you to argue less about the nature or function of this list, and instead focus on using it to support those users who ask for help her.
Regards,
Richard Brown openSUSE Chairman
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