Washington Irving wrote:
Pete Connolly wrote:
Washington Irving wrote:
Stefan Hundhammer wrote:
On Wednesday 21 May 2008 04:35, Jim Henderson wrote:
What about the idea of somehow flagging KDE4 as beta?
http://www.suse.de/~sh/yast2/11.0-Beta3Plus/yast2-004-desktop.png
It says:
"KDE 4.0 is the most recent evolution of KDE. It comes with many new KDE technologies, but it is less mature than the other desktops."
But on the KDE home page, it says that KDE 4 will be beta this summer.
Which means, right now, in their assessment (and who would know better?), KDE 4 is currently alpha.
And considering all of the missing functionality, especially when it comes to configurability, KDE 4 is definitely alpha.
STOP insulting our intelligence with all of these ridiculous lies about how KDE 4 is a desktop which can be relied on to work in all conditions and environments when the SUSE 11.0 release comes out...because it still isn't anywhere close.
Every time one of you tries to tell us this lie, all it does is wear away the trust we have in you.
(Other screen shots at http://www.suse.de/~sh/yast2/11.0-Beta3Plus/ )
CU
Right then Aaron, show us how you want it.
Just say something like this:
[ ] Gnome [ ] KDE 3 (stable and full-featured) [ ] KDE 4 (not yet Beta, but usable. Will be frequently updated as new development comes out. Not yet recommended for business environment.) [ ] No desktop or other desktop.
It's not like it's that DIFFICULT to just be honest with the new users...and with the current state of Vista, this could be many people's FIRST brush with linux...and if SUSE doesn't get it right...it might be their ONLY ... they're NOT looking to exchange one huge set of problems they are kind of used to and somewhat understand, for another huge set of problems which they don't understand in the slightest.
The problem with this is that you're focussing on the 'now', in that the current state of KDE 4.x is incomplete, but openSUSE 11.0 has a fixed timeframe in which it will ship. The wording, however, if hard coded into the installer with all the caveats, beta statements, 'not yet recommended' comments etc. will need to be updated dynamically according to sort sort of agreement within the community as to the current status of KDE 4.x. Is it alpha, beta, RC1? My problem isn't with labelling software as being 'bleeding edge', but how can you track bleeding edge software over time, yet still maintain the relevance of an installation CD/DVD that we all point to as being _the_ current opensuse release?
Give them fair warning. I don't word it as "alpha" above becuase, while many people know what "beta-testing" is, far fewer know what "alpha" means...and with other terms, like "alpha-dog" and "alpha-male", alpha could be grossly misinterpreted.
This is true. Alpha is probably a bit too software-development related to be useful to the world and his wife. I prefer to shun such terms, in favour of what my mother would understand. "Too early" is understood by many people. In the UK, I've used terms such as "that might be a bit fruity for you, lets give it a miss for now".
I think the simple wording above gives a fair, honest assessment of the what should be expected by the user who doesn't know any better, and doesn't have time to drop everything and go research the differences between KDE 3 and KDE 4 so that he can finish doing his installation, and then be satisfied that they have the sort of installation (fuddy-duddy but reliable, or bleeding-edge, a bit unstable, and still missing parts)
But that doesn't translate over time - Unless we can radically change the installer so that it handles the current state of KDE 4.x, Enlightenment, XFCE etc according to a community standard that is agreed, we'll never ship any 'interesting', cutting edge software. KDE 4.x will get to the stage of being a reliable, dependable desktop interface within a year. How do we propose to handle the 1000s of CDs, ISOs etc that will be knocking around with promises of death, theft of firstborn child, loss of human rights etc. if you use 4.x, when the world has migrated and seen the light with plasma, KDE-PIM 4.x etc? We don't want to be on the back foot in November - it's not the SuSE way.
Give us wording, or screenshots, of how you think it should be and let the rest of us judge what _you_ would put into the installer for 11.0.
I've read the arguments for and against 4.x and I believe it might be too early to have 4.x shipped as an install option, but you seem to be the most vocal and argumentative opposer of KDE 4.x in any form on this list. Personally, I'll play with it and wait for it to be ready, since that's what I love doing and 4.x gives me a whole new playground. You, however, seem to think the world will end unless you have your way.
I don't oppose KDE 4 ... I oppose misleading a new user into believing KDE 4 is something which it has not yet become -- which is to say, a complete, stable desktop.
I'll be more than happy to abandon KDE 3 once KDE 4 is ready.
But right now...this is like after a chef in a restaurant has pour a bunch of batter into a cake pan, a server grabbing the unbaked pan, throwing a bunch of icing on it, and then taking it out to the dining room and attempting to serve it as if it were a fully baked product.
My analogy would be different. I'd talk about icing, candles and messages written on the cake. The foundation is there, the polish is being worked on.
So, what do you suggest should be the actual workflow for the installation of 11.0, bearing in mind that KDE 4.x _must_ be there for people like me?
I don't have a problem with putting it as an option.
My problem is these goofballs at SUSE insisting on trying to fool the unwary into thinking that KDE 4 is farther along in the development process than what it really is.
Don't blow this - you've got a chance to prove yourself. What should the words on the screen actually say for the installation regarding desktop choices? Be prepared to defend your wording on many fronts.
It's not *that* difficult.
The only reason this is difficult is because the people at SuSE have been trying to put lipstick on pig.
I'm not saying that the KDE 4 project is a pig...but any alpha-state software is, by definition (or else it wouldn't be called alpha, it would be called release).
Cheers
Pete
I've spent many a week trying to turd-polish, so I understand. I just don't think that KDE 4.x is that bad. It has problems, and it needs to be presented as such, but it's potential is fantastic and I'd really like to see a working version in OSS 11.0. Just like Compiz (a Novell invention via Dave Reveman) was an eye opener, so should KDE 4 be championed in 11.0. I can handle the future, given the chance. Cheers Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org