Pete Connolly wrote:

Washington Irving wrote:

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Pete Connolly wrote:

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Washington Irving wrote:

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Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

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On Wednesday 21 May 2008 04:35, Jim Henderson wrote:

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What about the idea of somehow flagging KDE4 as beta?

http://www.suse.de/~sh/yast2/11.0-Beta3Plus/yast2-004-desktop.png

It says:

"KDE 4.0 is the most recent evolution of KDE. It comes with many new KDE technologies, but it is less mature than the other desktops."

But on the KDE home page, it says that KDE 4 will be beta this summer.

Which means, right now, in their assessment (and who would know better?), KDE 4 is currently alpha.

And considering all of the missing functionality, especially when it comes to configurability, KDE 4 is definitely alpha.

STOP insulting our intelligence with all of these ridiculous lies about how KDE 4 is a desktop which can be relied on to work in all conditions and environments when the SUSE 11.0 release comes out...because it still isn't anywhere close.

Every time one of you tries to tell us this lie, all it does is wear away the trust we have in you.

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(Other screen shots at http://www.suse.de/~sh/yast2/11.0-Beta3Plus/ )

CU

Right then Aaron, show us how you want it.

Just say something like this:

[ ] Gnome [ ] KDE 3 (stable and full-featured) [ ] KDE 4 (not yet Beta, but usable. Will be frequently updated as new development comes out. Not yet recommended for business environment.) [ ] No desktop or other desktop.

It's not like it's that DIFFICULT to just be honest with the new users...and with the current state of Vista, this could be many people's FIRST brush with linux...and if SUSE doesn't get it right...it might be their ONLY ... they're NOT looking to exchange one huge set of problems they are kind of used to and somewhat understand, for another huge set of problems which they don't understand in the slightest.

The problem with this is that you're focussing on the 'now', in that the current state of KDE 4.x is incomplete, but openSUSE 11.0 has a fixed timeframe in which it will ship.

And KDE 4.x will not get beyond beta by the time 11.1 ships. So what's the problem -- it's an accurate description of WHAT WILL BE INSTALLED for the new SUSE user who isn't quite sure of what it is that he's installing.

The wording, however, if hard coded into the installer with all the caveats, beta statements, 'not yet recommended' comments etc. will need to be updated dynamically according to sort sort of agreement within the community as to the current status of KDE 4.x. Is it alpha, beta, RC1?

The wording can't be changed for SuSE 11.1?

My problem isn't with labelling software as being 'bleeding edge', but how can you track bleeding edge software over time, yet still maintain the relevance of an installation CD/DVD that we all point to as being _the_ current opensuse release?

Forget about next month. The small business user, and the "I'm going to try Linux" user both need to be informed of what they are installing RIGHT THEN -- because the impression they are going to get is what they see RIGHT THEN...not what KDE looks like a month in the future after they've said, "screw it" and moved back to Windows. If there are caveats (of which there are many), then the new-to-Linux user NEEDS TO BE TOLD that they exist. Otherwise, he's going to feel like he's been, to put it nicely, played as an idiot.

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Give them fair warning. I don't word it as "alpha" above becuase, while many people know what "beta-testing" is, far fewer know what "alpha" means...and with other terms, like "alpha-dog" and "alpha-male", alpha could be grossly misinterpreted.

This is true. Alpha is probably a bit too software-development related to be useful to the world and his wife. I prefer to shun such terms, in favour of what my mother would understand. "Too early" is understood by many people. In the UK, I've used terms such as "that might be a bit fruity for you, lets give it a miss for now".

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I think the simple wording above gives a fair, honest assessment of the what should be expected by the user who doesn't know any better, and doesn't have time to drop everything and go research the differences between KDE 3 and KDE 4 so that he can finish doing his installation, and then be satisfied that they have the sort of installation (fuddy-duddy but reliable, or bleeding-edge, a bit unstable, and still missing parts)

But that doesn't translate over time - Unless we can radically change the installer so that it handles the current state of KDE 4.x, Enlightenment, XFCE etc according to a community standard that is agreed, we'll never ship any 'interesting', cutting edge software.

Remember...the EXPERIENCED USER doesn't need this explained to him, and fully understands that what's on the DVD is still in a fairly undeveloped state compared to what the final version of KDE 4 will be like. However, the person who is NEW to Linux probably doesn't understand the whole "release early and release often" concept -- because it just plain doesn't exist in the Windows world. Therefore, you need to tell him: 1: The current state of KDE 4 is less than desirable (i.e. expect some suckiness) 2: Expect frequent updates (i.e. suckiness will decrease rapidly as time progresses).

KDE 4.x will get to the stage of being a reliable, dependable desktop interface within a year.

In other words, when SUSE 11.1 comes out.

How do we propose to handle the 1000s of CDs, ISOs etc that will be knocking around with promises of death, theft of firstborn child, loss of human rights etc. if you use 4.x, when the world has migrated and seen the light with plasma, KDE-PIM 4.x etc? We don't want to be on the back foot in November - it's not the SuSE way.

The question is, what to put on the SUSE 11.0 discs, not all of 11.x.... just the .0 release. KDE 4 will be perfectly fine by the time 11.1 is ready to go. But don't deceive the newbie into thinking that KDE 4 is the "no-brainer" choice for an 11.0 install.

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Give us wording, or screenshots, of how you think it should be and let the rest of us judge what _you_ would put into the installer for 11.0.

I've read the arguments for and against 4.x and I believe it might be too early to have 4.x shipped as an install option, but you seem to be the most vocal and argumentative opposer of KDE 4.x in any form on this list. Personally, I'll play with it and wait for it to be ready, since that's what I love doing and 4.x gives me a whole new playground. You, however, seem to think the world will end unless you have your way.

I don't oppose KDE 4 ... I oppose misleading a new user into believing KDE 4 is something which it has not yet become -- which is to say, a complete, stable desktop.

I'll be more than happy to abandon KDE 3 once KDE 4 is ready.

But right now...this is like after a chef in a restaurant has pour a bunch of batter into a cake pan, a server grabbing the unbaked pan, throwing a bunch of icing on it, and then taking it out to the dining room and attempting to serve it as if it were a fully baked product.

My analogy would be different. I'd talk about icing, candles and messages written on the cake. The foundation is there, the polish is being worked on.

Missing configurability is a serious problem. That's unbaked batter.

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So, what do you suggest should be the actual workflow for the installation of 11.0, bearing in mind that KDE 4.x _must_ be there for people like me?

I don't have a problem with putting it as an option.

My problem is these goofballs at SUSE insisting on trying to fool the unwary into thinking that KDE 4 is farther along in the development process than what it really is.

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Don't blow this - you've got a chance to prove yourself. What should the words on the screen actually say for the installation regarding desktop choices? Be prepared to defend your wording on many fronts.

It's not *that* difficult.

The only reason this is difficult is because the people at SuSE have been trying to put lipstick on pig.

I'm not saying that the KDE 4 project is a pig...but any alpha-state software is, by definition (or else it wouldn't be called alpha, it would be called release).

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Cheers

Pete

I've spent many a week trying to turd-polish, so I understand. I just don't think that KDE 4.x is that bad. It has problems, and it needs to be presented as such, but it's potential is fantastic and I'd really

A 13-year old girl has the potential to be a charming, beautiful woman. That doesn't mean you take her out and seduce her tonight.

like to see a working version in OSS 11.0. Just like Compiz (a Novell invention via Dave Reveman) was an eye opener, so should KDE 4 be championed in 11.0. I can handle the future, given the chance.

That's a red-herring. It's NOT ABOUT you or me, Pete. We're NOT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON. We're talking about how should this software be presented to new users who don't know shit about computers, but they know they're sick of Vista, or even XP, and want to try Linux. How do you present information which THEY NEED to make a decision which is appropriate FOR THEM. Experienced users will have already made up their mind about whether they want KDE 3 or KDE 4 before they even put the install disk into the drive. PERSONALLY, I'll be installing KDE 4. But I'm talking to a small businessman, who has no in-house expert for support, there's no way in the world I would suggest KDE 4 to him. That would be absolutely unprofessional. It's not SUSE's job to be a cheerleader for KDE 4. SUSE's job is to make a distro with and installation system which provides users the ability to install what they want, and enough information so that they can decide WHAT SOFTWARE IS APPROPRIATE for their situation. Cheerleading does nothing more than lead the unwary into installing software which will later make them pissed off because you didn't give fair warning of the deficiencies. All you need is one small business-man going to his local Chamber of Commerce meeting, and installing KDE 4 because there's no adequate warning, and then he's telling every other small business owner in town that SuSE sucks... nd now you've lost an entire business community. If you put "not for business use" on KDE 4, and he loads KDE 4 anyways...then he has nobody but himself to blame. Stop focussing on the fact that *YOU* like all of the eye-candy on KDE 4, and START thinking about the guy who is installing SUSE on his machine, and what HE want -- because he really doesn't care how much time and effort you spent developing Compiz, or anything else. What *HE* wants is for his computer to function properly, and to be able to configure it to his needs, so that he can run his business. And floating, twisting Compiz cubes are not necessary for him to run his business. Take a look outside of your own, small world, and look at things from the perspective of the people we are trying to GET INTO the community. At some point, you HAVE TO PLEASE THEM. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org