[opensuse-translation] Weblate / posummit status and possibilities
Hello guys, after the last hackaton there were some questions about the summit and why didn't I announce that I work on something like that. The reason was really simple, I was not entirely sure if it is possible and how hard it will be. Firstly let me explain what is summit. It merges various trees of translations (sle11, opensuse12.3, Factory) and shows them only as one translation file with desc for which branch is which. The obvious benefit for translators is that you have to do the work only on one place and it gets populated in all branches. In the end after all the testing I have local svn checkout with semi working merged tree for 3 languages, but during the automatic update testing it crashes a lot, which ends up uncovering bugs in the pology package that is supposed to do the summit handling. Due to this and lack of not much free time I suspended my work on this and I plan to do a bit stuff following week during Hackweek 9 [1]. But there is also one more option than just going with the pology, which would allow us also to do fancy translations over web interface [2]. The benefits here are the same as with the summit for the translator, but the thing should be more working as Michal Cihar is pretty smart guy and it would reduce the need to rely on package I don't entirely understand. The work on weblate side required is adding support for svn OR migrating our translation infrastructure to git. And then just starting the weblate instance and providing links. After that we would probably discourage/disable the direct access to the po files because you would loose all the fancy stuff like the branch merging when you work around and not use the web interface. So please let me know how strongly would you be against web-based translation approach. Note that if you lack some cool feature on weblate side I bet we can bribe Michal with some cookies to implement it. :-) Cheers Tom [1] http://hackweek.suse.com/ [2] http://www.weblate.org/
Lørdag 6. april 2013 11.45.10 skrev Tomáš Chvátal:
Hello guys,
After that we would probably discourage/disable the direct access to the po files because you would loose all the fancy stuff like the branch merging when you work around and not use the web interface. So please let me know how strongly would you be against web-based translation approach.
I suppose the translation process would be considerably slowed down for those of us who translate openSUSE po files using full-fledged CAT tools. Although I don't know how the weblate site would work. For all I know it might be packed with productivity boosting features. :)
Note that if you lack some cool feature on weblate side I bet we can bribe Michal with some cookies to implement it. :-)
Cheers
Tom
[1] http://hackweek.suse.com/ [2] http://www.weblate.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Dne So 6. dubna 2013 12:25:10, Olav Pettershagen napsal(a):
Lørdag 6. april 2013 11.45.10 skrev Tomáš Chvátal:
Hello guys,
After that we would probably discourage/disable the direct access to the po files because you would loose all the fancy stuff like the branch merging when you work around and not use the web interface. So please let me know how strongly would you be against web-based translation approach.
I suppose the translation process would be considerably slowed down for those of us who translate openSUSE po files using full-fledged CAT tools.
Although I don't know how the weblate site would work. For all I know it might be packed with productivity boosting features. :)
Thats the goal for weblate. So far Michal implemented almost all usefull stuff and when needed he adds features. So you are still able to do context search you have fuzzy matching from translation memory, use tbx dictionaries, ... During the hackweek he plans to do 1.5 release [1] which brings more goodies to be up par with what we can do with lokalize and other tools. I am pretty picky for what is needed for translations as I do them for quite while. :-) But the best approach would be probably to find out what is missing for you (try the demo and look on the bugs we plan to fix next week [and consider those features to be there for the opensuse tool]) so Michal can implement it. [1] https://github.com/nijel/weblate/issues?milestone=7&page=1&state=open
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1304061808390.24132@Telcontar.valinor> On Saturday, 2013-04-06 at 12:25 +0200, Olav Pettershagen wrote:
Lørdag 6. april 2013 11.45.10 skrev Tomáš Chvátal:
Hello guys,
After that we would probably discourage/disable the direct access to the po files because you would loose all the fancy stuff like the branch merging when you work around and not use the web interface. So please let me know how strongly would you be against web-based translation approach.
I suppose the translation process would be considerably slowed down for those of us who translate openSUSE po files using full-fledged CAT tools.
Although I don't know how the weblate site would work. For all I know it might be packed with productivity boosting features. :)
Indeed. I will not work via a web tool, no matter how good it is. On the other hand, SLES translation is done, AFAIK, by profesional paid translators, whereas openSUSE is translated by volunteers. You can not merge both teams. I certainly refuse to translate something gratis that may used by a paid professional, who gets paid for my work. And they, being professionals, may also reject the translations done by amateurs. I know of some translators teams that do, they even do exams on volunteer candidates. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlFgSe8ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UueQCfS7Rzil4ls4h6lsEyKij7dA3Z ensAnjv1QGlbhAnqLb04iN143DHwnBpm =wtmq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Dne So 6. dubna 2013 18:14:39, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):
After that we would probably discourage/disable the direct access to the po files because you would loose all the fancy stuff like the branch merging when you work around and not use the web interface. So please let me know how strongly would you be against web-based translation approach.
I suppose the translation process would be considerably slowed down for those of us who translate openSUSE po files using full-fledged CAT tools.
Although I don't know how the weblate site would work. For all I know it might be packed with productivity boosting features. :)
Indeed. I will not work via a web tool, no matter how good it is.
Why is that, if the tool is more convinient to use and easier to manage? We can still allow the write access in the end but you would loose all the goodies.
On the other hand, SLES translation is done, AFAIK, by profesional paid translators, whereas openSUSE is translated by volunteers. You can not merge both teams.
Yes there were some paid translations, but that is not regular basis afaik, so we can merge and review the "pro" stuff to be merged into openSUSE and vice versa.
I certainly refuse to translate something gratis that may used by a paid professional, who gets paid for my work. And they, being professionals, may also reject the translations done by amateurs. I know of some translators teams that do, they even do exams on volunteer candidates.
Ahem AFAIK the translations are merged anyway and whatever you contribute to the openSUSE release is marked GPL/CC and others and will one day be included in next SLE or actually used by anyone else interested. I am CCing Jos to see if my contribution assumptiond are right or not. Cheers Tom
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-04-08 at 12:29 +0200, Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
Dne So 6. dubna 2013 18:14:39, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):
Indeed. I will not work via a web tool, no matter how good it is.
Why is that, if the tool is more convinient to use and easier to manage?
Personal preferences. "Manias" if you prefer. :-p They are not easier to me. Sometimes I do not have good enough Internet, even none at all.
I certainly refuse to translate something gratis that may used by a paid professional, who gets paid for my work. And they, being professionals, may also reject the translations done by amateurs. I know of some translators teams that do, they even do exams on volunteer candidates.
Ahem AFAIK the translations are merged anyway and whatever you contribute to the openSUSE release is marked GPL/CC and others and will one day be included in next SLE or actually used by anyone else interested.
No, they are not merged. In my team (Spanish) we decided not to accept the SLES contributions. It is up to the individual contributor whether to accept parts of it or whatever. I'm aware that my contributions are GPL. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlFiuEcACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VjmgCfU+rmY607D8orTxse3G54XkX+ rqkAniF9xpsuQA0y7xZWl1JlduI5hbTA =p0AJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
2013/4/8 Tomáš Chvátal <tchvatal@suse.cz>:
Dne So 6. dubna 2013 18:14:39, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):
Indeed. I will not work via a web tool, no matter how good it is.
Why is that, if the tool is more convinient to use and easier to manage?
Because for instance I prefer to translate offline and then go online just for updating/committing. This is particularly important if you have a time/traffic bounded web connection, or you translate on spare time when you do not have internet connection.
We can still allow the write access in the end but you would loose all the goodies.
I hope so.
Yes there were some paid translations, but that is not regular basis afaik, so we can merge and review the "pro" stuff to be merged into openSUSE and vice versa.
Provided that the po files for SLE and openSUSE are the same. Can you ensure this? If not, what is the practical difference between keeping different copies on a web site and keeping them on an svn server? Moreover, I have seen in the faqs that it is possible to propagate automatically changes from one branch to others. How do you manage branches where by choice translations are different (for instance, because the translation team has agreed for the next release on a different translation style or on different translation rules)?
Ahem AFAIK the translations are merged anyway and whatever you contribute to the openSUSE release is marked GPL/CC and others and will one day be included in next SLE or actually used by anyone else interested.
From my point of view this is different: I am translating for openSUSE following the translation rules Italian openSUSE translation team has agreed on. I care only about the result in openSUSE; I do not care whether these translations are then used by others (they can, it is GPL/CC); it is their problem to merge/adapt/rewrite my translations to their needs. For sure I do not want that my work, done following agreed rules, is wasted by commits done by translators from different teams following different translation rules, just because a web tool is considered more convenient to use and easier to manage. BTW, the same happens now with the SVN server: I really dislike when messages from other translations are merged and not marked as fuzzy, but hopefully this is not happening any more.
Best, Andrea -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1304081505030.24132@Telcontar.valinor> On Monday, 2013-04-08 at 14:42 +0200, Andrea Turrini wrote:
2013/4/8 Tomáš Chvátal <tchvatal@suse.cz>:
Ahem AFAIK the translations are merged anyway and whatever you contribute to the openSUSE release is marked GPL/CC and others and will one day be included in next SLE or actually used by anyone else interested.
From my point of view this is different: I am translating for openSUSE following the translation rules Italian openSUSE translation team has agreed on. I care only about the result in openSUSE; I do not care whether these translations are then used by others (they can, it is GPL/CC); it is their problem to merge/adapt/rewrite my translations to their needs. For sure I do not want that my work, done following agreed rules, is wasted by commits done by translators from different teams following different translation rules, just because a web tool is considered more convenient to use and easier to manage. BTW, the same happens now with the SVN server: I really dislike when messages from other translations are merged and not marked as fuzzy, but hopefully this is not happening any more.
Absolutely. Same here. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlFiwIMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VQEQCfdfYRQMWC6ODRX82Wy8SDpM7E WqIAnAuwVGKxhTWQkXG8IFhBq5P2nvF+ =DDja -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Am Montag, 8. April 2013, 15:05:07 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
From my point of view this is different: I am translating for openSUSE following the translation rules Italian openSUSE translation team has agreed on. I care only about the result in openSUSE; I do not care whether these translations are then used by others (they can, it is GPL/CC); it is their problem to merge/adapt/rewrite my translations to their needs. For sure I do not want that my work, done following agreed rules, is wasted by commits done by translators from different teams following different translation rules, just because a web tool is considered more convenient to use and easier to manage. BTW, the same happens now with the SVN server: I really dislike when messages from other translations are merged and not marked as fuzzy, but hopefully this is not happening any more.
Absolutely. Same here.
Sitting in the same boat here. I also prefer to work offline with my familiar set of tools, but maybe that's just the opinion of us long term translators and openSUSE would get a lot more new translators with an easy web based approach like Ubuntu (at the expense of translation quality?!). -- Kind Regards, Michael
Dne Út 9. dubna 2013 20:59:22, Michael Skiba napsal(a):
I also prefer to work offline with my familiar set of tools, but maybe that's just the opinion of us long term translators and openSUSE would get a lot more new translators with an easy web based approach like Ubuntu (at the expense of translation quality?!).
There really should be no problem in the quality of the stuff, because even if they decide to translate string it still needs to be approved by the team (and approving is faster than translating yourself, at least for me it is ;]), later on if you decide the guy is cool enough to grant him direct access and perms. Also we can add multiple review requirement and similar stuff if desired. I myself when using the transifex interface during work on xbmc, vlc and others was not pleased and usually just download the po and edit in lokalize. But when it came to terms of colaboration with others, I can do multiple reviews of other people code dropins and it is great to have more than one pair of eyes looking on the same string. Cheers Tom
Dne Po 8. dubna 2013 14:42:24, Andrea Turrini napsal(a):
2013/4/8 Tomáš Chvátal <tchvatal@suse.cz>:
Dne So 6. dubna 2013 18:14:39, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):
Indeed. I will not work via a web tool, no matter how good it is.
Why is that, if the tool is more convinient to use and easier to manage?
Because for instance I prefer to translate offline and then go online just for updating/committing. This is particularly important if you have a time/traffic bounded web connection, or you translate on spare time when you do not have internet connection.
We can still allow the write access in the end but you would loose all the goodies.
I hope so.
Yep it will work. In a bit i will sent lenghty mail explaining the process. And you guys will for sure be able to translate the .po files directly. There will be two ways how to do it. One to download all po files from weblate and then upload them back up when needed. Other using the git repositories with the packages and create merge requests on github.
Yes there were some paid translations, but that is not regular basis afaik, so we can merge and review the "pro" stuff to be merged into openSUSE and vice versa.
Provided that the po files for SLE and openSUSE are the same. Can you ensure this? If not, what is the practical difference between keeping different copies on a web site and keeping them on an svn server? Moreover, I have seen in the faqs that it is possible to propagate automatically changes from one branch to others. How do you manage branches where by choice translations are different (for instance, because the translation team has agreed for the next release on a different translation style or on different translation rules)?
It is possible to have the fuzz there, you can decide one branch say Yes and other Yup, but this allows you to work the other way around too so if you find some typo in one branch it will be fixed in all (if desired).
Ahem AFAIK the translations are merged anyway and whatever you contribute to the openSUSE release is marked GPL/CC and others and will one day be included in next SLE or actually used by anyone else interested.
From my point of view this is different: I am translating for openSUSE following the translation rules Italian openSUSE translation team has agreed on. I care only about the result in openSUSE; I do not care whether these translations are then used by others (they can, it is GPL/CC); it is their problem to merge/adapt/rewrite my translations to their needs. For sure I do not want that my work, done following agreed rules, is wasted by commits done by translators from different teams following different translation rules, just because a web tool is considered more convenient to use and easier to manage. BTW, the same happens now with the SVN server: I really dislike when messages from other translations are merged and not marked as fuzzy, but hopefully this is not happening any more.
Yes automatic merges won't happen, it must be reviewed by translation team member and you will now see his name on the change so you can blame him via the web tool. If you decide just to ignore the SLE stuff you of course can but as it is just matter of few clicks it would be nice to have those in sync. Even the paid guys could have good ideas :-P Cheers Tom
Tomáš Chvátal <tchvatal@suse.cz> writes:
Indeed. I will not work via a web tool, no matter how good it is.
Why is that, if the tool is more convinient to use and easier to manage?
Often you are forced to use the mouse. This might be convenient, it often drives me angry. -- Karl Eichwalder SUSE LINUX Products GmbH R&D / Documentation Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Dne Út 9. dubna 2013 10:51:55, Karl Eichwalder napsal(a):
Tomáš Chvátal <tchvatal@suse.cz> writes:
Indeed. I will not work via a web tool, no matter how good it is.
Why is that, if the tool is more convinient to use and easier to manage?
Often you are forced to use the mouse. This might be convenient, it often drives me angry.
That is just about how the webapp is done. If it is done correctly it can use keyboard bindings. The javascript code for this is actually even quite simple. But you are right that desktop apps have this solved way better and by default. Anyway webapp issues will be moot as it will be just Yet-another-possible-tool and statistic display :-) Cheers Tom
participants (6)
-
Andrea Turrini -
Carlos E. R. -
Karl Eichwalder -
Michael Skiba -
Olav Pettershagen -
Tomáš Chvátal