[opensuse-project] What you vote, and what you DON'T vote on - openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
Hello, please excuse me, but as a political scientist I have to butt in here and say my piece. ;-) The problem here is a misapprehension of what a majority vote can and can not do. The question at hand (default desktop) is very comparable to a conflict between two rivaling ethnicities living in the same country. As democratic decision-making does and should not take into account ethnicity, there will always be core-issues that _must_remain_unresolved_ if such a country is to exist for any length of time. These are issues which directly correlate to contradicting interests of one or the other ethnic community (i.e. zero-sum games). If one of the ethnic communities (as it usually is the case) is bigger than the other one it could easily decide such critical issues continuously to their advantage and to the disadvantage of the smaller community. A majority decision here would not be the result of a decision-making process or bargaining, which are prerequisite to any meaningful democratic decision, but would simply represent the bigger party pushing its interests at the expense of the smaller party, which would be detrimental to the system as a whole. Here purely democratric decision-making fails. A majority vote will in the end result in disintegrating the country. Majority decisions are NOT a fair solution to solve problems involving two persistent interest groups. The belief that voting is a fair solution to EVERY problem is simply wrong; the theory of democracy suggests otherwise. Reliance on majority votes alone is 'not democratic' in our modern understanding of the word because when we talk about democracy we don't mean majority vote but a system which in addition to that also respects the right of the individual and the interests of minorities. This is why our political systems are NOT democracies but 'liberal democracies' (liberalism is a necessary component that prevents the abuse of majority influence). Coming back to my analogy of two ethnicities living in the same country, there are two ways such a situation can go: a) a split of the country, which brings a whole new set of problems b) ways of decision making other than majority-based are set in place and unresolvable questions (=zero-sum games) are made a taboo These are also the options for the opensuse-distribution, translating into: a) discontinue the DVD-releases and only put out Live-CDs, thus avoiding the issue (a mild kind of split, as I don't think anybody would really want 'KopenSUSE' and 'GopenSUSE'...) b) treat both communities equally by NOT defaulting to a specific desktop (the zero-sum game is made a taboo) and there is always c) declare it someone else's problem (as in 'let Andreas decide' ;)) 'c)' is not really an option because the new decision maker be it a maintainer of whoever - would face the same problems and consequences. But with a vote on a) or b) I think we would have it down to two meaningful, non-destructive options which don't align with the borders of the two 'camps'. a) would mean KDE fans get their petty little victory, as they don't have to see GNOME at the top of that alphabetic list anymore. For GNOME fans nothing would change. The decision would go at the expense of those serious users who actually NEED the DVDs. b) would mean everyone has to either accept that the openSUSE community as a whole is more important than their feelings about a specific desktop, or they'd have to adjust their perception as to view the Live-CD releases as the main form of distro-release. Perhaps we could make that easier for them by hiding the DVD download-option somewhere unobtrusive. These are IMHO the only options that could realistically be voted upon without making the vote a zero-sum game - because the options to decide on don't represent the persistent interests of the interest groups that decide on it (option A: KDE, option B: GNOME). Again, you CAN'T make default desktop choice a majority vote and call it fair. I am frankly quite amazed by the nonchalance with which a KDE-team member has brought up this explosive issue on the very questionable pretext that a default desktop would bring less confusion and attract more developers, with utter disregard to what this aggravating discussion would entail for the community. The correct way to go about it would have been starting a discussion on this ML. Bringing this up topic as a 'feature request' represents a serious abuse of openFATE IMHO and should have been rejected outright. The gains of this whole discussion are close to zero, the damage has already been done and could potentially be serious if the majority of KDE-proponents on the ML continues to push its agenda. I feel sad about it, I would have expected the openSUSE community to behave in a more adult fashion. Greets, Chris Jäger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Onsdag den 5. august 2009 14:26:14 skrev Christian Jäger:
The problem here is a misapprehension of what a majority vote can and can not do.
You're completely off-beat with all of this. A majority decision has never been in the cards. The decision will be made by openSUSE management and the openSUSE board (assuming noone higher up in the Novell hierarchy interfers).
a) discontinue the DVD-releases and only put out Live-CDs, thus avoiding the issue (a mild kind of split, as I don't think anybody would really want 'KopenSUSE' and 'GopenSUSE'...)
The exact same issues exist for the download page on the website as for the dvd installer. Besides solving nothing, discontinuing the dvd is also a bad idea because it's the preferred media by most.
b) treat both communities equally by NOT defaulting to a specific desktop (the zero-sum game is made a taboo)
Ahh, but you ignore the fact that the majority of our community don't see the current situation as being equal at all.
and there is always c) declare it someone else's problem (as in 'let Andreas decide' ;))
'c)' is not really an option because the new decision maker be it a maintainer of whoever - would face the same problems and consequences.
AJ's draft of a policy for the matter mostly takes care of the problem of the issue coming up again at random times: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00196.html
But with a vote on a) or b) I think we would have it down to two meaningful, non-destructive options which don't align with the borders of the two 'camps'.
They're both quite destructive.
b) would mean everyone has to either accept that the openSUSE community as a whole is more important than their feelings
No, it would mean that the feelings of a small minority would be more important than the good of the project as a whole.
I am frankly quite amazed by the nonchalance with which a KDE-team member has brought up this explosive issue
He is not part of the openSUSE KDE team if that's what you mean. I don't think any KDE person close to the openSUSE project would have ever bothered opening this debate - cuz frankly everyone expected/expects that Novell politricks would overrule the interest of the block the correct decision from ever being made. Which is in itself one of many reasons why the status quo is quite destructive.
The gains of this whole discussion are close to zero, the damage has already been done
Again you ignore the fact that the status quo is doing damage every day, and has been doing so for years - for all the reasons already stated in the discussion. If the correct decision is made, this whole thing is an opportunity for the openSUSE community to come out healthier on the other side. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch, den 05.08.2009, 15:12 +0200 schrieb Martin Schlander:
this debate - cuz frankly everyone expected/expects that Novell politricks would overrule the interest of the block the correct decision from ever being made. Which is in itself one of many reasons why the status quo is quite destructive.
Martin, you are clearly only flaming, you are one-sided, you have an unfounded belief that there IS a 'correct' decision to be made and that you know what this correct decision is. You don't seem to understand one bit of my initial comment on this. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Moin, On Wednesday 05 August 2009 15:12:43 Martin Schlander wrote:
Onsdag den 5. august 2009 14:26:14 skrev Christian Jäger:
The problem here is a misapprehension of what a majority vote can and can not do.
You're completely off-beat with all of this. A majority decision has never been in the cards.
The decision will be made by openSUSE management and the openSUSE board (assuming noone higher up in the Novell hierarchy interfers). a) the openSUSE Board as of the Guiding Principles [1] is not supposed to make decisions but recommendations: Act as a central point of contact Help resolve conflicts Communicate community interests to Novell Facilitate communication with all areas of the community Facilitate decision making processes where needed b) I fear the decision has to be made by myself as the Product Manager of openSUSE. It's most likely a decision which just can be wrong. But it will be taken soon. Best M [1] http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles
a) discontinue the DVD-releases and only put out Live-CDs, thus avoiding the issue (a mild kind of split, as I don't think anybody would really want 'KopenSUSE' and 'GopenSUSE'...)
The exact same issues exist for the download page on the website as for the dvd installer. Besides solving nothing, discontinuing the dvd is also a bad idea because it's the preferred media by most.
b) treat both communities equally by NOT defaulting to a specific desktop (the zero-sum game is made a taboo)
Ahh, but you ignore the fact that the majority of our community don't see the current situation as being equal at all.
and there is always c) declare it someone else's problem (as in 'let Andreas decide' ;))
'c)' is not really an option because the new decision maker be it a maintainer of whoever - would face the same problems and consequences.
AJ's draft of a policy for the matter mostly takes care of the problem of the issue coming up again at random times:
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00196.html
But with a vote on a) or b) I think we would have it down to two meaningful, non-destructive options which don't align with the borders of the two 'camps'.
They're both quite destructive.
b) would mean everyone has to either accept that the openSUSE community as a whole is more important than their feelings
No, it would mean that the feelings of a small minority would be more important than the good of the project as a whole.
I am frankly quite amazed by the nonchalance with which a KDE-team member has brought up this explosive issue
He is not part of the openSUSE KDE team if that's what you mean. I don't think any KDE person close to the openSUSE project would have ever bothered opening this debate - cuz frankly everyone expected/expects that Novell politricks would overrule the interest of the block the correct decision from ever being made. Which is in itself one of many reasons why the status quo is quite destructive.
The gains of this whole discussion are close to zero, the damage has already been done
Again you ignore the fact that the status quo is doing damage every day, and has been doing so for years - for all the reasons already stated in the discussion.
If the correct decision is made, this whole thing is an opportunity for the openSUSE community to come out healthier on the other side.
-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex
Am Donnerstag, den 06.08.2009, 00:03 +0200 schrieb Michael Loeffler:
b) I fear the decision has to be made by myself as the Product Manager of openSUSE.
You got my sympathies. ;-) Greets, Chris Jäger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Christian Jäger<christian.jaeger@rub.de> wrote:
Am Donnerstag, den 06.08.2009, 00:03 +0200 schrieb Michael Loeffler:
b) I fear the decision has to be made by myself as the Product Manager of openSUSE.
You got my sympathies. ;-)
Greets, Chris Jäger
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
This has always been a questioned poised to me when I suggest someone download and install openSUSE, Which desktop should I use, what is the difference, and the big one, why is there 2 desktops and why does it not just load one? What I am getting out is I cannot tell the new user which one to use because than it comes back upon me if they do not like the suggestion I made. Most systems I have used install one default and later on you have the choice to switch to another one (if there is another one). Believe me when I say this, I have had users just say, well I cannot decide so I will just stay with whatever I am using presently. Or, they ask me why is there 2 is something wrong with one so they give you a choice of 2 or 3. I would say that 95% of the users I do get to try openSUSE are coming from Windows where there is only 1 choice when installing so having 2 or 3 choices on the install does truly confuse them. They really do not care and only want a desktop that works. It is only the experienced Linux user who knows about the different desktops and then they can make changes after the install. Why argue or vote and let the manager select one as default as you can always change later to the one of your choice. I personally care less which one installs as default since I know I can switch and change later. Most new users would not even know the difference anyway as they will use what is installed until they tinker and learn the system. Being with 3 other Linux systems I have never seen this brought up before as they all had a default desktop on the install. PeterPac InNetInvestigations-Forensic SLED/openSUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, den 06.08.2009, 23:23 -0700 schrieb member greenarrow1:
This has always been a questioned poised to me when I suggest someone download and install openSUSE, Which desktop should I use, what is the difference, and the big one, why is there 2 desktops and why does it not just load one? What I am getting out is I cannot tell the new
Why don't you send them the link to the KDE-Live-CD then? Problem solved. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 07 August 2009 09:21:05 Christian Jäger wrote:
Am Donnerstag, den 06.08.2009, 23:23 -0700 schrieb member greenarrow1:
This has always been a questioned poised to me when I suggest someone download and install openSUSE, Which desktop should I use, what is the difference, and the big one, why is there 2 desktops and why does it not just load one? What I am getting out is I cannot tell the new
Why don't you send them the link to the KDE-Live-CD then? Problem solved. Problem not solved. Still someone needs to make this decision which Live-CD to choose. M -- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex
Michael Loeffler a écrit :
Problem not solved. Still someone needs to make this decision which Live-CD to choose.
at the beginning only the Kde4 live was available (not looked at it recently), may be not the better one :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 09:44:27 +0200, Michael Loeffler wrote:
Why don't you send them the link to the KDE-Live-CD then? Problem solved. Problem not solved. Still someone needs to make this decision which Live-CD to choose.
I think it is solved, though, because the user being asked is going to make the decision about which to recommend to the person asking. If someone comes to me, I'm likely to say "I use GNOME and prefer it, so I'd suggest you download the GNOME LiveCD and try it out - but if you don't like it, there's another option in KDE, and some people like that, so try that second if you don't like GNOME". But knowing that if they're asking me they're also likely to come to me if they have questions, I'm likely to push the GNOME CD harder because it's what I know. If they use KDE, they'll likely have to find another resource (at which point, I'll push them to the forums or the users mailing list, depending on their level of expertise in computing. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi Michael, On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 00:03 +0200, Michael Loeffler wrote:
a) the openSUSE Board as of the Guiding Principles [1] is not supposed to make decisions but recommendations:
Wow; really ? so when it says "The board should document decisions and policies." - it basically has a secretarial role of writing down the decisions made by others ? :-) is there any kind of decision it can make ?
* Act as a central point of contact * Help resolve conflicts * Communicate community interests to Novell
A large part of this debate is framed in terms of "what the community wants", "obeying the will of the community, as expressed in openFATE" and so on :-) As such, it would be interesting to hear the board's recommendation on this topic. Anyhow - I'm glad you're committed to talking to the board before making your decision - and I look forward to closure on this topic. Personally, I (and perhaps you?) would feel far happier if the board were collectively responsible for such charged decisions - and find it hard to believe we created a 'board' with no executive authority ? :-) Regards, Michael. -- michael.meeks@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi Michael,
On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 00:03 +0200, Michael Loeffler wrote:
a) the openSUSE Board as of the Guiding Principles [1] is not supposed to make decisions but recommendations:
Wow; really ? so when it says "The board should document decisions and policies." - it basically has a secretarial role of writing down the decisions made by others ? :-) is there any kind of decision it can make ? No, there isn't. The Guiding Principles were shaped around 2 years ago with the community and agreed on. We believe in the existing open source development processes and
Moin, On Friday 07 August 2009 10:50:40 Michael Meeks wrote: the corresponding decision making processes. And the previous years have shown that this worked out pretty well. Most decisions are made by upstream projects, by teams and maintainers working in the openSUSE project.
* Act as a central point of contact * Help resolve conflicts * Communicate community interests to Novell
A large part of this debate is framed in terms of "what the community wants", "obeying the will of the community, as expressed in openFATE" and so on :-) As such, it would be interesting to hear the board's recommendation on this topic.
Anyhow - I'm glad you're committed to talking to the board before making your decision - and I look forward to closure on this topic. Personally, I (and perhaps you?) would feel far happier if the board were collectively responsible for such charged decisions - and find it hard to believe we created a 'board' with no executive authority ? :-)
The current discussion about a radio button is the first for years now which obviously splits two groups and might need a decision by a superior body. Therefor we'll use the openSUSE conference to define if such body is needed and if yes how to form it. Best Michael
Regards,
Michael.
-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex
I for one am certainly not asking for a majority vote to decide [IF] opensuse should have a default desktop pre-selected. There is a technical argument to be had about how much net benefit would derive from having a ubuntu style; next > next > done install procedure. That technical argument is one I am not qualified to engage in, and i doubt the broader opensuse community is either, so let it be decided by the opensuse board or what other panel of 'experts' is deemed necessary. However, it is pretty clear to me that if there is to be a default desktop, because it has been deemed to provide sufficient net benefit, then it absolutely be the most popular desktop. And as always, I preface this statement with with whole-hearted support for opensuse's stated policy of providing equal [support] to both Gnome and KDE. I also recognise that Gnome [support] will not suffer in any way due to the fact that Novell are committed to Gnome for their commercial suse products. In the absence of an informed decision from the 'experts' i tend to believe that opensuse will see a net benefit from a default desktop, but that is only my opinion and i don't support taking any action upon it. Christian Jäger wrote:
Hello,
please excuse me, but as a political scientist I have to butt in here and say my piece. ;-)
The problem here is a misapprehension of what a majority vote can and can not do.
The question at hand (default desktop) is very comparable to a conflict between two rivaling ethnicities living in the same country. As democratic decision-making does and should not take into account ethnicity, there will always be core-issues that _must_remain_unresolved_ if such a country is to exist for any length of time.
These are issues which directly correlate to contradicting interests of one or the other ethnic community (i.e. zero-sum games). If one of the ethnic communities (as it usually is the case) is bigger than the other one it could easily decide such critical issues continuously to their advantage and to the disadvantage of the smaller community. A majority decision here would not be the result of a decision-making process or bargaining, which are prerequisite to any meaningful democratic decision, but would simply represent the bigger party pushing its interests at the expense of the smaller party, which would be detrimental to the system as a whole.
Here purely democratric decision-making fails. A majority vote will in the end result in disintegrating the country.
Majority decisions are NOT a fair solution to solve problems involving two persistent interest groups. The belief that voting is a fair solution to EVERY problem is simply wrong; the theory of democracy suggests otherwise.
Reliance on majority votes alone is 'not democratic' in our modern understanding of the word because when we talk about democracy we don't mean majority vote but a system which in addition to that also respects the right of the individual and the interests of minorities. This is why our political systems are NOT democracies but 'liberal democracies' (liberalism is a necessary component that prevents the abuse of majority influence).
Coming back to my analogy of two ethnicities living in the same country, there are two ways such a situation can go: a) a split of the country, which brings a whole new set of problems b) ways of decision making other than majority-based are set in place and unresolvable questions (=zero-sum games) are made a taboo
These are also the options for the opensuse-distribution, translating into: a) discontinue the DVD-releases and only put out Live-CDs, thus avoiding the issue (a mild kind of split, as I don't think anybody would really want 'KopenSUSE' and 'GopenSUSE'...) b) treat both communities equally by NOT defaulting to a specific desktop (the zero-sum game is made a taboo)
and there is always c) declare it someone else's problem (as in 'let Andreas decide' ;))
'c)' is not really an option because the new decision maker be it a maintainer of whoever - would face the same problems and consequences.
But with a vote on a) or b) I think we would have it down to two meaningful, non-destructive options which don't align with the borders of the two 'camps'.
a) would mean KDE fans get their petty little victory, as they don't have to see GNOME at the top of that alphabetic list anymore. For GNOME fans nothing would change. The decision would go at the expense of those serious users who actually NEED the DVDs. b) would mean everyone has to either accept that the openSUSE community as a whole is more important than their feelings about a specific desktop, or they'd have to adjust their perception as to view the Live-CD releases as the main form of distro-release. Perhaps we could make that easier for them by hiding the DVD download-option somewhere unobtrusive.
These are IMHO the only options that could realistically be voted upon without making the vote a zero-sum game - because the options to decide on don't represent the persistent interests of the interest groups that decide on it (option A: KDE, option B: GNOME).
Again, you CAN'T make default desktop choice a majority vote and call it fair.
I am frankly quite amazed by the nonchalance with which a KDE-team member has brought up this explosive issue on the very questionable pretext that a default desktop would bring less confusion and attract more developers, with utter disregard to what this aggravating discussion would entail for the community. The correct way to go about it would have been starting a discussion on this ML. Bringing this up topic as a 'feature request' represents a serious abuse of openFATE IMHO and should have been rejected outright.
The gains of this whole discussion are close to zero, the damage has already been done and could potentially be serious if the majority of KDE-proponents on the ML continues to push its agenda. I feel sad about it, I would have expected the openSUSE community to behave in a more adult fashion.
Greets, Chris Jäger
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch, den 05.08.2009, 15:05 +0100 schrieb Matt Gray:
However, it is pretty clear to me that if there is to be a default desktop, because it has been deemed to provide sufficient net benefit,
Balancing more KDE users / devs vs, disintegration of the openSUSE-community, I fail to see the net benefit. And you don't need technical insights to see that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
participants (8)
-
Christian Jäger -
jdd (kim2) -
Jim Henderson -
Martin Schlander -
Matt Gray -
member greenarrow1 -
Michael Loeffler -
Michael Meeks