[opensuse-project] openSUSE Strategy Discussion: Home for developers

Pavol Rusnak

21 Jun 2010 21 Jun '10

08:05

Hi all! As we promised earlier[1] starting today we'll be discussing the first of strategies: Home for developers[2]. Please try to add your comments to particular bulletpoints or sentences, so it is easier for us to merge your suggestions into final form. Happy discussing! [1] http://news.opensuse.org/2010/06/17/a-strategy-for- the-opensuse-project-proposals-and-discussions/ [2] http://en.opensuse.org/Documents/Strategy/Development ----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<---- openSUSE - Home for developers ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1.) Statement: We deliver the most integrated platform for developers (e.g. web developers, system developers, Qt/GTK developers, Android/MeeGo/WebOS developers, etc.) To be the ideal home for developers we deliver all popular open source IDEs and related tools and the perfect desktops suited for them to make the development efficient. Additionally we deliver a decent server platform to allow direct deployment of web applications and make rapid testing possible. By providing integration with social networks and collaboration tools, we enable developers to work flawlessly in a distributed environments and enable the usage of agile techniques. 2.) Activities: 2.a.) We need to be excellent in the following: * Out-of-box experience for all popular open source IDEs, integration and development of related tools (graphical debugger, etc.) * Provide tools to easily deploy developed software (e.g. server integration, Build Service, etc.) more tightly coupled to tools * Provide infrastructure to distribute software (e.g. Build Service, SUSE Studio) * Provide desktop environments fitting the needs of developers * Cooperation with team projects to make openSUSE their development platform of choice * Deliver the most up-to-date development libraries to make app development rock (also allow to keep multiple versions) * Integrate social networks and collaboration tools * Collaboration with other Linux distros 2.b.) We will try to do the following effectively: * Provide GUI administration tools, including WebYaST * Lobby for open standards * Market openSUSE at events * Continue testing and bugfixing in an efficient way 2.c.) As project, we will not focus on the following anymore: * Applications not related to development (directly or indirectly) -- Best Regards / S pozdravom, Pavol RUSNAK SUSE LINUX, s.r.o openSUSE Boosters Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xA6917144 19000 Praha 9 prusnak[at]opensuse.org Czech Republic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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Martin Schlander

21 Jun 21 Jun

08:28

Mandag den 21. juni 2010 10:05:01 skrev Pavol Rusnak:

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openSUSE - Home for developers

Making openSUSE irrelevant to ~98% of potential users, and alienating most of existing users too.

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2.c.) As project, we will not focus on the following anymore:

* Applications not related to development (directly or indirectly)

Developers also do other things with their computers than writing code. Even if openSUSE had all the development tools perfectly packaged and ready to go, developers would never use openSUSE, unless it is _also_ a great OS for all the other tasks they'll do on a desktop and server. Any idea to make openSUSE a highly specialized appliance for a niche use case is a horrible idea. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Pavol Rusnak

08:32

On 06/21/2010 10:28 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:

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Developers also do other things with their computers than writing code. Even if openSUSE had all the development tools perfectly packaged and ready to go, developers would never use openSUSE, unless it is _also_ a great OS for all the other tasks they'll do on a desktop and server.

Applications related indirectly to development are for example desktop environment, LAMP stack and so on ... so these WILL be in focus of this strategy.

...

Any idea to make openSUSE a highly specialized appliance for a niche use case is a horrible idea.

That's why we are discussing these proposals. When we extend the strategies with some valid points the strategy will not target only niche use cases, but broader audience. -- Best Regards / S pozdravom, Pavol RUSNAK SUSE LINUX, s.r.o openSUSE Boosters Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xA6917144 19000 Praha 9 prusnak[at]opensuse.org Czech Republic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

08:55

Am Montag 21 Juni 2010 schrieb Pavol Rusnak:

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On 06/21/2010 10:28 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:

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Developers also do other things with their computers than writing code. Even if openSUSE had all the development tools perfectly packaged and ready to go, developers would never use openSUSE, unless it is _also_ a great OS for all the other tasks they'll do on a desktop and server.

Applications related indirectly to development are for example desktop environment, LAMP stack and so on ... so these WILL be in focus of this strategy.

Can you give examples of applications that we currently care for (currently as in the "everything for everyone" approach said to fail) and will not care for in this proposal? Because "desktop environment, LAMP stack and so on" sounds like "everything but xteddy" to me. E.g. is "fast boot" a topic then? Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Oddball

09:24

Stephan Kulow schreef:

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E.g. is "fast boot" a topic then?

Greetings, Stephan

I realy hope oS will not leave the path to boot fast(er): 11.3 Boots realy fast compared with fi, 11.1(which is totaly stable btw..) If there are people that want to boot slower, there certainly are methods to slow down boot speed: show Bios-logo longer fi.. :-)) -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Guido Berhoerster

10:19

* Pavol Rusnak [2010-06-21 10:32]:

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On 06/21/2010 10:28 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:

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Developers also do other things with their computers than writing code. Even if openSUSE had all the development tools perfectly packaged and ready to go, developers would never use openSUSE, unless it is _also_ a great OS for all the other tasks they'll do on a desktop and server.

Applications related indirectly to development are for example desktop environment, LAMP stack and so on ... so these WILL be in focus of this strategy.

...
Any idea to make openSUSE a highly specialized appliance for a niche use case is a horrible idea.

That's why we are discussing these proposals. When we extend the strategies with some valid points the strategy will not target only niche use cases, but broader audience.

I think Martin hits the nail on the head, while I don't consider any of the three proposals "niche cases" they inevitably imply specialization and this in turn has the potential to alienate both existing and potential new contributors and users. Although I agree there has to be some direction for the whole openSUSE project, this should IMO be kept much more general. I'd rather propose that such strategies should be adopted by respective teams diving the given objectives, i.e. the KDE team could adopt the "KDE#1" strategy, the Mobile team could adopt the "Mobile and cloud ready" strategy etc. The strategy for the whole project should then be rather general and encompassing superset of these. Note that I'm not talking about providing a base of specialized derivative distributions but a single coherent project uniting different subprojects. -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Guido Berhoerster

12:22

* Guido Berhoerster [2010-06-21 12:17]:

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* Pavol Rusnak [2010-06-21 10:32]:

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On 06/21/2010 10:28 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:

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Developers also do other things with their computers than writing code. Even if openSUSE had all the development tools perfectly packaged and ready to go, developers would never use openSUSE, unless it is _also_ a great OS for all the other tasks they'll do on a desktop and server.

Applications related indirectly to development are for example desktop environment, LAMP stack and so on ... so these WILL be in focus of this strategy.

...
Any idea to make openSUSE a highly specialized appliance for a niche use case is a horrible idea.

That's why we are discussing these proposals. When we extend the strategies with some valid points the strategy will not target only niche use cases, but broader audience.

I think Martin hits the nail on the head, while I don't consider any of the three proposals "niche cases" they inevitably imply specialization and this in turn has the potential to alienate both existing and potential new contributors and users.

Although I agree there has to be some direction for the whole openSUSE project, this should IMO be kept much more general. I'd rather propose that such strategies should be adopted by respective teams diving the given objectives, i.e. the KDE team could adopt the "KDE#1" strategy, the Mobile team could adopt the "Mobile and cloud ready" strategy etc. The strategy for the whole project should then be rather general and encompassing superset of these. Note that I'm not talking about providing a base of specialized derivative distributions but a single coherent project uniting different subprojects.

All of the strategy proposals in the wiki seem to somewhat clash with the Guiding Priciples of openSUSE: ... create the best Linux distribution in the world, which has the *largest user community*, and provide the primary source for getting free software. ... foster the success of Linux *everywhere*. We want Linux to be successful in a wide range of application domains like *server, desktop, or development*, and being adopted by users from all kind of geographical regions and cultural backgrounds. ... create a distribution which is stable, easy to use and a complete *multi-purpose distribution for users and developers, for desktop and server use, for beginners and experienced users, for everybody*. (https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples, emphasis mine) Particularly the "mobile and cloud" and "developers" strategy seem to represent a 180-degree turn from these principles. Actually, after looking at the "We want to..." section of the guiding principles I think this already provides a reasonable framework for team-based strategies as I've outlined above. -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd

09:24

Le 21/06/2010 10:28, Martin Schlander a écrit :

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Any idea to make openSUSE a highly specialized appliance for a niche use case is a horrible idea.

could be a goal for a *sub* division of openSUSE, may be a separate process, but not for the global one. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Pavol Rusnak

09:36

On 06/21/2010 11:24 AM, jdd wrote:

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could be a goal for a *sub* division of openSUSE, may be a separate process, but not for the global one.

By subdivision do you mean something like spin-off mentioned in the Derivatives strategy? -- Best Regards / S pozdravom, Pavol RUSNAK SUSE LINUX, s.r.o openSUSE Boosters Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xA6917144 19000 Praha 9 prusnak[at]opensuse.org Czech Republic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd

09:39

Le 21/06/2010 11:36, Pavol Rusnak a écrit :

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On 06/21/2010 11:24 AM, jdd wrote:

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could be a goal for a *sub* division of openSUSE, may be a separate process, but not for the global one.

By subdivision do you mean something like spin-off mentioned in the Derivatives strategy?

fork, other distro, what ever you want to name it :-) "openSUSE-develops"? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

10:44

Hi, Le lundi 21 juin 2010, à 10:05 +0200, Pavol Rusnak a écrit :

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openSUSE - Home for developers ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1.) Statement:

We deliver the most integrated platform for developers (e.g. web developers, system developers, Qt/GTK developers, Android/MeeGo/WebOS developers, etc.)

To be the ideal home for developers we deliver all popular open source IDEs and related tools and the perfect desktops suited for them to make the development efficient. Additionally we deliver a decent server platform to allow direct deployment of web applications and make rapid testing possible. By providing integration with social networks and collaboration tools, we enable developers to work flawlessly in a distributed environments and enable the usage of agile techniques.

One general comment: it's difficult to make the developers I know switch distributions. Sure, openSUSE is not perfect for them right now (missing packages for some libraries they would need to use, or missing tools), but the main thing is that they also care about their desktop as standard users. And they just don't see any real big additional value to justify a switch (I'm talking about upstream developers, but also developers not involved in free software) Based on this, I would think that "Home for developers" would more likely be a subgoal of "Home for end users" than a strategy by itself (it could be a derivative distro, for example).

...

2.) Activities:

2.a.) We need to be excellent in the following:

* Out-of-box experience for all popular open source IDEs, integration and development of related tools (graphical debugger, etc.) * Provide tools to easily deploy developed software (e.g. server integration, Build Service, etc.) more tightly coupled to tools * Provide infrastructure to distribute software (e.g. Build Service, SUSE Studio)

What do you mean with "deploy"? One interesting thing here is that the openSUSE project can usefully target developers without the openSUSE distribution. By making it easier and easier to create and update packages for 5 distros in the build service, for example. I would like to see this happen, and I have the feeling that we should explore this. Most of the community will likely want to see the stragegy focused on the distribution, though.

...

* Provide desktop environments fitting the needs of developers * Cooperation with team projects to make openSUSE their development platform of choice * Deliver the most up-to-date development libraries to make app development rock (also allow to keep multiple versions)

This one screams bleeding-edge, which doesn't always help with stability. Just want to point it out -- not a big issue for me.

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* Integrate social networks and collaboration tools * Collaboration with other Linux distros

Can you elaborate on what this last item mean?

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2.b.) We will try to do the following effectively:

* Provide GUI administration tools, including WebYaST * Lobby for open standards * Market openSUSE at events

Wouldn't we need to actually promote openSUSE more at developers events? (not all events) Or how would you get the word out to developers?

...

* Continue testing and bugfixing in an efficient way

2.c.) As project, we will not focus on the following anymore:

* Applications not related to development (directly or indirectly)

Same question as other people: any example of such applications? :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Will Stephenson

12:38

On Monday 21 June 2010 10:05:01 Pavol Rusnak wrote:

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We deliver the most integrated platform for developers (e.g. web developers, system developers, Qt/GTK developers, Android/MeeGo/WebOS developers, etc.)

To be the ideal home for developers we deliver all popular open source IDEs and related tools and the perfect desktops suited for them to make the development efficient. Additionally we deliver a decent server platform to allow direct deployment of web applications and make rapid testing possible. By providing integration with social networks and collaboration tools, we enable developers to work flawlessly in a distributed environments and enable the usage of agile techniques.

This strategy statement (and probably the other ones) seem like the first step in a direction without stating the larger goal of the strategy in answering Pavol's question "Why openSUSE?" [1]. I'm sure that some goal is in our heads, or we wouldn't be participating so enthusiastically in this discussion, but I can't find it written down anywhere. This makes me worry that we might all be arguing for and against strategies at cross purposes. So, why do we need this strategy and what do we want to achieve with it? My guess, based on this strategy proposal, would be something like "ensure openSUSE's future as a popular and growing Operating System by giving it a clear identity that focuses strongly on one user group" but it could be "make the distribution developer-friendly because devs will also improve the distribution itself, compensating for a relative decline in paid engineering, and resulting in a quality distribution attractive to a wider range of users" or it could even just be "scratch my own open-source itch at a distribution-strategic level to make the best tools for what I do" And that's just 3 things 1 contributor came up with in 5 minutes. Can we try and look a few moves ahead, beyond the outline of a strategy, about how it could work and what they might deliver over a few years? Will [1] http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2010-05/msg00023.html -- Will Stephenson, KDE Developer, openSUSE Boosters Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt

17:04

On Monday 2010-06-21 10:05, Pavol Rusnak wrote:

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----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<----

openSUSE - Home for developers ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All these recently proposed statements makes me wonder what people see being wrong with how things are currently done (besides the process not being explicitly documented). I find that many points from the different statements are already fulfilled and that selecting any particular one statement as the Master Statement would truncate openSUSE:Factory from what it is today. You even mention it:

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2.c.) As project, we will not focus on the following anymore:

* Applications not related to development (directly or indirectly)

And that is sooo unspecific. Almost any package could be said to relate to development. And conversely, it could also be said to not. "firefox no because it's for browsing" "firefox yes because you develop, uh, webpages." "but then I want minesweeper, because it inspires me on what to put on the webpage"... sort of like that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander

18:10

Mandag den 21. juni 2010 19:04:56 skrev Jan Engelhardt:

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On Monday 2010-06-21 10:05, Pavol Rusnak wrote:

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----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<----

openSUSE - Home for developers ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All these recently proposed statements makes me wonder what people see being wrong with how things are currently done (besides the process not being explicitly documented).

The lack of "documentation" is a big part of the problem. Novell employees, volunteers, marketers etc. have a tendency to pull in all kinds of different directions because noone is quite sure exactly what the identity/mission of openSUSE is/should be. My proposal is deliberately very close to simply documenting the current state (at least imho), since I think we don't need a big revolution, just some clarity and focus - building on what we already have.

...

I find that many points from the different statements are already fulfilled and that selecting any particular one statement as the Master Statement would truncate openSUSE:Factory from what it is today.

I guess that's intended too. Doing a little less than now, but in exchange doing it better than before. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt

18:29

On Monday 2010-06-21 20:10, Martin Schlander wrote:

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Mandag den 21. juni 2010 19:04:56 skrev Jan Engelhardt:

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On Monday 2010-06-21 10:05, Pavol Rusnak wrote:

...
----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<----

openSUSE - Home for developers ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All these recently proposed statements makes me wonder what people see being wrong with how things are currently done (besides the process not being explicitly documented).

The lack of "documentation" is a big part of the problem. Novell employees, volunteers, marketers etc. have a tendency to pull in all kinds of different directions because noone is quite sure exactly what the identity/mission of openSUSE is/should be.

Perhaps not having any clear direction _is_ the very essence of openSUSE, the interesting point. Kinda like in the linux kernel project. Brownian Motion, but never astray from the path. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

18:37

Martin Schlander wrote:

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Mandag den 21. juni 2010 19:04:56 skrev Jan Engelhardt:

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On Monday 2010-06-21 10:05, Pavol Rusnak wrote:

...
----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<----

openSUSE - Home for developers ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All these recently proposed statements makes me wonder what people see being wrong with how things are currently done (besides the process not being explicitly documented).

The lack of "documentation" is a big part of the problem. Novell employees, volunteers, marketers etc. have a tendency to pull in all kinds of different directions because noone is quite sure exactly what the identity/mission of openSUSE is/should be.

Yep. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

18:34

Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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On Monday 2010-06-21 10:05, Pavol Rusnak wrote:

...
----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<----

openSUSE - Home for developers ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All these recently proposed statements makes me wonder what people see being wrong with how things are currently done (besides the process not being explicitly documented).

The target/objective ditto. We don't know where we are going and we are trying to define that. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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participants (10)

Guido Berhoerster
Jan Engelhardt
jdd
Martin Schlander
Oddball
Pavol Rusnak
Per Jessen
Stephan Kulow
Vincent Untz
Will Stephenson