On Thursday 17 June 2010 12:05:17 Vincent Untz wrote:

Hi,

Le jeudi 17 juin 2010, à 11:34 +0200, Andreas Jaeger a écrit :

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http://en.opensuse.org/index.php?title=Documents/Strategy/Community contains the following statement that we'd like to discuss and enhance as written in the introductory email (http://news.opensuse.org/2010/06/17/a-strategy-for- the-opensuse-project-proposals-and-discussions/),

Andreas

Looks like a good start!

A general comment first: is this a statement that will stay valid for, say, 5 years? Or just a statement that is valid now, while we're discussing the strategy?

Valid for let's say 5 years.

I'm asking this because if it's the former, some things might need to be reworded ("Establish the openSUSE Foundation" will be done at some point, so that won't be a goal anymore...)

It's an activity we should do during those years. Once it's done, we can change it to "run the foundation" ;)

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We are the openSUSE Community - a friendly, welcoming, vibrant, and active community. This includes developers, testers, writers, translators, usability experts, artists, promoters and everybody else who wishes to engage with the project.

To grow the openSUSE Community, we will put contributors first and focus on

the following activities: * Build a lively and active community * Increase contributor visibility * Attract contributions by empowering our community to influence and shape

the Project in all aspects

* Make contributing easy by eliminating or greatly reducing bureaucratic

obstacles and having great governance

* Market the Project

This includes the following activities in order to excel in our goals: * Create tools that support community activities * Establish the openSUSE Foundation

(see my first comment)

...

* Improve visibility through announcements, news, blogs, tweets, etc * Give presentations about the Project

What kind of presentations? At events (what kind of events?)? On the web? Or do we want to keep this deliberately vague to cover all types of presentations?

Yes, it was kept vague as a high-level description. We had in mind events but the vague description helps here to let you think broader ;)

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* Establish Events: Conference organization

Is this item about the organization of the openSUSE conference or about something else? It's unclear, so clarifying might be good :-)

Yes, openSUSE conference.

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* Emphasize the value of communication and recognize cultural diversity

within our community

This goal sounds great, but, hrm, what does it mean in practice? :-) Do we have any concrete example of how we would achieve this? (It sounds more like a value than a goal to me)

That's what we need to discuss here ;)

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* Foster governance discussions

(same comment as for openSUSE Foundation: once we have a good governance model, this will be less of a goal, I guess)

Yes, so it would then change to e.g. "live good governance"

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* Mentor new contributors * Praise contributors (Publicity, bounties, ...)

I think just "Praise contributors" would be enough. I'm specifically wondering about the bounties here. Do we have bounties?

Bounties was an idea for an example of doing it but we don't have them now.

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We will also do the following activities: * Events: Attend shows, set up booths, have openSUSE Community rooms * Raise funds for the Project through the openSUSE Foundation * Helping new users and contributors

The "contributors" part here sounds redundant with the "Mentor new contributors" from above.

Vincent, we should add you to our wordsmith department ;)

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* Encourage technical discussions (via mailing lists and forums) * Give presentations about the Project

Hrm, we have this one in the first list already ;-)

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* Publications, whitepapers, ... in journals

To be honest, I'm unsure about this one: it seems to me that the one below (reaching out to key people) is way more important. Are we already doing some of this today? If not, I'm not sure it's worth investing efforts in starting doing this.

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* Reaching multiplicators (journalists, key comm members, ...) * Customer intelligence (Surveys, segmentation, update statistics, ...)

I don't like the term "customer" for a project like ours: we're not

Yep.

selling anything, and it gives some false impression. Maybe "audience"?

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Note that we are very well aware that anything we do depends on the

Remove "Note that" :-) Maybe also remove "very well": it doesn't sound right in such a statement.

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willingness of our community to drive it and make it successful. The openSUSE Community Board sees its leadership role in making coherent proposals and driving community decisions -- not in just taking decisions on behalf of the community.

I wouldn't say "The board sees its role" but "The role of the board is", especially since this statement is from the community as a whole, not just from the board. (And saying "the board sees" might imply a new elected board could have a different opinion here)

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Note that openSUSE has evolved from it's initial launch with little

Remove "Note that" :-) s/it's/its/

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participation to being now a real open source project. It has many sponsors

(I'd remove "now" -- it doesn't bring anything useful, and will sound weird in 3 years)

Ah, not sure I should open this can of worms, but... open source or free software?

FOSS/FLOSS ;)

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including Novell as main sponsor. The sponsors are part of the Project and will support it in various ways but not control the project. openSUSE being an

The last part reads a bit weird. I'd add a "will": "but will not control"

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open source project means that everybody in the community can contribute equally to it in all aspects of the project and should not depend on any of the sponsors doing everything.

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We'd like to cite as well from the openSUSE Guiding Principles: I'd change this to: "Finally, this quote from the openSUSE Guiding Principles summarizes the values of our project:" (or something similar). This explains why we have that quote here, instead of just saying "we'd like to" without explaining why :-)

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We value respect for other persons and their contributions, for other opinions and beliefs. We listen to arguments and address problems in a constructive and open way. We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful. We don't tolerate social discrimination and aim at creating an environment where people feel accepted and safe from offense.

Thanks, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

** Reply Requested by 6/17/2010 (Thursday) **

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Per Jessen 17 Junho, 2010 >>> Vincent Untz wrote:

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* Emphasize the value of communication and recognize cultural diversity within our community

This goal sounds great, but, hrm, what does it mean in practice? :-) Do we have any concrete example of how we would achieve this? (It sounds more like a value than a goal to me)

Ditto.

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* Reaching multiplicators (journalists, key comm members, ...) * Customer intelligence (Surveys, segmentation, update statistics, ...)

I don't like the term "customer" for a project like ours: we're not selling anything, and it gives some false impression. Maybe "audience"?

Or simply 'user' ?

I agree "audience" maybe is not the best word to use, but is much better then customer ;-) /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 17 June 2010 12:30:12 Marcus Moeller wrote:

An how does a project benefit from users that do not contribute? We should instead animate 'users' to become contributors. And note: contribution does not mean: you have to provide code. There are a lot of tasks to do, so that everybody should find an area of choice.

A project which creates software greatly benefits from users, because that's the whole point of doing it after all. If openSUSE is not used by anybody, why do it? So the goal should be to reach out to many users, regardless if they contribute or not. Of course we want to make users contribute, but not every user will do that, and that's fine. -- Cornelius Schumacher -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Pascal Bleser wrote:

On Thursday 17 June 2010 15:56:51 Cornelius Schumacher wrote:

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On Thursday 17 June 2010 12:30:12 Marcus Moeller wrote:

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An how does a project benefit from users that do not contribute? We should instead animate 'users' to become contributors. And note: contribution does not mean: you have to provide code. There are a lot of tasks to do, so that everybody should find an area of choice.

A project which creates software greatly benefits from users, because that's the whole point of doing it after all. If openSUSE is not used by anybody, why do it?

The fun of doing it. If it isn't for the fun, why do it ? ;)

Does anyone remember "Have a lot of fun" ? Exactly Pascal, it's has got to be fun! -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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There are different angles, and everyone has her own set of priorities on why she participates into a project like openSUSE (or KDE, or JBoss, or whatever). I just wanted to stress that in _your_ opinion, the goal should be to reach out to many users, and a more or less large proportion of the current contributor community might relate to that, but it certainly isn't the only option.

You are completely right. It's not the only possible goal, and I think that's why we are having the strategy discussion. To come up with a common goal.

Personally I'm not interested in a project which doesn't target a wide range of users. But that might be only me.

I agree that our target market should be the users rather than the technical community. Only one of the strategies identifies a target group of users, and then it defines this group in part through technologies rather than characteristics of the users. Focussing on mobile users is for me a good strategy, and will encompass the interoperability (horrible word) and interfaces which I think important. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Something we discussed during our meetings was the following: To target - and thus to grow - the users , we need to grow the contributors. Right now I think the openSUSE project should concentrate on growing the contributors so that those then grow users... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

On Thursday 17 June 2010 12:08:35 Cornelius Schumacher wrote:

[...] This is a nice list of general community activities, but I think it's a bit hard to discuss this without knowing the goal of the community and the users we want to target. As I understand it goals should be part of the strategy proposals discussion, right? So could we do that first?

This statement is included in all three of the proposals, so somehow the foundation for them and therefore send first. Yeah, depending on the strategy chosen, we might need to adjust it differently - but not completely different ;) Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

On Thursday 17 June 2010 16:07:54 Per Jessen wrote:

Cornelius Schumacher wrote:

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As an example, putting contributors first doesn't make a lot of sense, when we want to reach out to users beyond the community. There we would have to put users first and define who they are, how to reach them, and what activities would support that.

We can't have contributors without users and we can't have users with contributors, but I think contributors have to come first, because they are essential in producing what will attract the user.

Couldn't agree more. And I would even add something else: this isn't just about creating software. It is also (and even prominently ?) about having a nice, friendly, productive (in a positive sense) atmosphere and group of people where contributors can do stuff they like to do. I don't believe that "market share" should be a priority for the openSUSE project (or, at least, not one of the top priorities). But hey, maybe that's just me :) cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::6+7 Feb 2010, Brussels, http://fosdem.org

Dear jdd.

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I don't believe that "market share" should be a priority for the openSUSE project (or, at least, not one of the top priorities).

we need a sufficient marked share to stay alive, and who know what this will mean 5 years ahead?

I don't think that we will need 'market share'. We need to be innovative, we need to be friendly, we need to be reliable and trustful.

From that may come what you call 'market share'.

And I am not talking about Novell or SLE, just openSUSE here. It's not about 'earning money'! Kind Regards Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hi Felix.

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I don't think that we will need 'market share'. We need to be innovative, we need to be friendly, we need to be reliable and trustful.

It were up to me, in this order:

Class I: 1-reliable 2-trustworthy 3-friendly

Class II: 1-innovative ...

Innovation is prone to clash with the Class I priorities. e.g. to maximize reliability and trust, both of which depend somewhat if not more on familiarity, on a fresh user startup I immediately undo Kickoff Menu in favor of the more familiar and responsive Classic.

Hey, I like Kickoff :) even better when it's worldcup -- Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Marcus Moeller schreef:

Dear jdd.

...

...

I don't believe that "market share" should be a priority for the openSUSE project (or, at least, not one of the top priorities).

we need a sufficient marked share to stay alive, and who know what this will mean 5 years ahead?

I don't think that we will need 'market share'. We need to be innovative, we need to be friendly, we need to be reliable and trustful.

...

From that may come what you call 'market share'.

Exactly!

And I am not talking about Novell or SLE, just openSUSE here. It's not about 'earning money'!

Yet.. (to survive, and to be taken serious, helas money has to be generated, at some point, but imho, this is a specific task, not to be worried about by devs, or contributors, or users, but: one milon users times $ or Euro: 50, makes 50 miljon..., if that would be a year, and it would stay the same, it would still be 250 miljon in 5 years..)

Kind Regards Marcus

-- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 2010-06-20 18:06, Administrator wrote:

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[market share market share market share market share market share market share market share market share market share]

I agree ... market share is a measure of popularity (whether your product is liked and appreciated by your intended "consumers").

I'd prefer to make a good one rather one that gets the most users. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Administrator schreef:

...

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I don't think that we will need 'market share'. We need to be innovative, we need to be friendly, we need to be reliable and trustful.

...

From that may come what you call 'market share'.

Exactly!

I agree ... market share is a measure of popularity (whether your product is liked and appreciated by your intended "consumers").

...

...

And I am not talking about Novell or SLE, just openSUSE here. It's not about 'earning money'!

Yet.. (to survive, and to be taken serious, helas money has to be generated, at some point, but imho, this is a specific task, not to be worried about by devs, or contributors, or users, but: one milon users times $ or Euro: 50, makes 50 miljon..., if that would be a year, and it would stay the same, it would still be 250 miljon in 5 years..)

I disagree slightly. We need resources, not necessarily money. Most of our resources are given without payment by the community. Some are paid for by "sponsors" who get some value in return (reputation, knowledge, information and understanding, a standard of FLOSS software). It's useful to receive / have money where we have unavoidable costs (e.g. producing physical copies of the distribution), and its useful to ensure our independence from the sponsors.

Money, attracts money... which does not make money 'a good thing'... Money simply makes it easier to reach 'market', because good commercials and broadcasttime cost money: about 30% of the investment, to be exact.... One thing is for sure:the foundation needs as much money as it can get, not meaning that the 'wrong people for the job' should be concerned about it. As part of the strategies, money realy *has* to be involved. I seriously do think someone with a real understanding of money should be approached when the smoke has cleared, and: All nessesary institutiional talk has been spoken, and the goals have been set.

As with much on the inter-web thingy, we would be taken seriously by having a volume of consumers (aka market share).

David

-- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Administrator schreef:

...

Money, attracts money... which does not make money 'a good thing'... Money simply makes it easier to reach 'market', because good commercials and broadcasttime cost money: about 30% of the investment, to be exact.... One thing is for sure:the foundation needs as much money as it can get, not meaning that the 'wrong people for the job' should be concerned about it. As part of the strategies, money realy *has* to be involved. I seriously do think someone with a real understanding of money should be approached when the smoke has cleared, and all necessary institutional talk has been spoken, and the goals have been set.

I can see that working ... it would make someone's reputation creating a business model for FLOSS which makes money, and that should be good incentive, apart form the pro-bono-publicum aspect. All we need is someone with a real understanding of money who's prepared to invest some of their time and expertise into creating something new for their and our benefit.

Anyone know (or know of) someone like that?

David

What i feel as a very good starting point is a post from Carlos Rebeiro, i quote:

I'm not sure if is here the correct place to talk about some openSUSE government strategy, then I'll let my points here. If I made a mistake, please someone guide the following point to new threat.

Brasil government have FINANCIAL INCENTIVES to companies that push opensource to the table and invest on it. I don't know how we will work on this segment, but we need to do something I think, maybe have a dedicated guy (could be worldwide * but is better be a local one) to take care of this critical and important kind of marketshare, government. I also dont' know about other countries but in Brazil, red hat (as fedora), and ubuntu both have their dedicated guys taking care for government.

see you around CarlosRibeiro

-- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

But only *after* the distro is ready for mass distribution. Which probably will take some time, but hopefully not too much.. That is: IF is choosen for this model...

I, for one, would support a strategy which included aiming for mass acceptance in the foreseeable future. The "public" (or, at least a defined subgroup) acceptance and feedback are very good measures of how well we're doing. Software I've developed is reliable (in my hands) and easy to use (by me). Unfortunately others don't always agree with my opinion :-( David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On Thursday 17 June 2010 12:57:38 Per Jessen wrote:

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Andreas Jaeger wrote:

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This includes the following activities in order to excel in our goals: [snip]

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* Emphasize the value of communication and recognize cultural diversity within our community

I can't help thinking that this is just a blurp (waffle; saying something only for the sake of saying it). Maybe it belongs in some other context, but it's difficult to imagine what kind of _activities_ we would untertake in this respect.

So, any ideas how to word it differently?

I don't think it belongs here at all. To actively "recognize cultural diversity" sounds like positive discrimination, something I certainly don't think we should even consider. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

On Thursday 17 June 2010 07:20:13 Per Jessen wrote:

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I don't think it belongs here at all. To actively "recognize cultural diversity" sounds like positive discrimination, something I certainly don't think we should even consider.

It is actually essential part of the future, if we want one.

The recognition of cultural and economic diversity will influence how we create and distribute openSUSE:

1) We should find methods to reach people where Internet is not developed and media distribution counting on wide used broadband is just a dream. 1.1) Providing free media that can be given away after installation, 1.2) Providing opportunities for business oriented people to run small business in media redistribution.

2) We should have media (software selection) that doesn't count on multicore 64 bit CPU and few gigabytes of RAM.

3) We should create setup tailored to users that have no computer skills besides using keyboard and mouse, and don't ask for 3D. They will need help and preconfigured email, forums, IRC that open on click are essential for success.

4) We should upgrade live help channels with procedures similar to professional services. IRC is good, but not everyone can read fast enough to separate his talk from other in the channel. Current software lacks easy way to filter single conversation, but still have other helpers monitoring all channel traffic. Private messaging is not the right way as it isolates all other that can help.

5) Design and artwork can't please everyone, being a bit more local when creating artwork can only help us.

Your ideas are not bad, they're not just about cultural diversity. I'd like to discuss them, but this isn't the right thread. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (10.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

* Rajko M. [06-19-10 16:49]:

On Saturday 19 June 2010 13:34:03 Per Jessen wrote:

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Your ideas are not bad, they're not just about cultural diversity. I'd like to discuss them, but this isn't the right thread.

The list was created with some Asian and African countries in mind where we have to address both ** cultural and economic ** diversity.

I jumped on practical questions without explaining background.

==Default desktops are heavy for older hardware== LXDE inclusion is partially addressing economic issues, giving light and supported desktop.

==Artwork judgment can be a problem== We can label "don't like" something that is too colorful for our taste and some other people can find our too simple, not exciting enough. There is a big difference in perception what is modest, or tasteful, in various cultures.

There is also implicit discrimination when we give comments on another distro artwork. In particular commenting on Ubuntu selection of colors, or associating such colors with some ugly items, is indirect discrimination against people that would like that colors in openSUSE.

==Expressing ideas in a written form== Is also subject that can lead to unintentional discrimination. We are used to language difficulties, but that is not only difference between people. Majority on northern hemisphere doesn't like too many exclamation marks and some new users can get disgruntled comments about them, without dong anything wrong for their local environment.

Listing and addressing such issues is priority if we want to have the same appeal to different world regions.

When do you meet the "point-of-no-return". Almost any statement of more than two words can be taken "out of context" or otherwise as distasteful or abusive or discriminatory by *someone*, *somewhere*. You may invoke an atmosphere of "no communication" lest someone tread on someone else's toes. We are mostly adults and need to handle ourselves that way. We intend to be courteous and helpful but will not always come off that way. The simple act of advocating a particular desktop environment steps on the toes of all of the *other* de's users. We must live in a "real world" and realize that someone is always going to be unhappy with what is said and/or done. The crux is that of intent, and w/o deliberate expression of that intent, nearly impossible to define or identify. Definitely not a clear as the message sig lines displayed in the offtopic list. And the individual argued that case. I, a long time x-smoker, tremendously dislike being in the presence of someone who smells of tobacco smoke but refrain from comment. Should I comment to him that he has a distasteful odor about him? Or what about the individual who's deodorant, or lack of use from cultural preferences, doesn't do the job. You are approaching a very deep well! We must all be intelligent members of a society. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan schreef:

We must all be intelligent members of a society.

Thats discriminating... ;-)) -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 20 June 2010 11:06:47 Per Jessen wrote:

... Anyway, that is really more of a specific strategy issue, and as such not relevant for the community statement (in my opinion).

Yes it is, but that is actually something that should precede statement. Analyze what you have to cover and then decide what you will cover in the beginning with current resources (infrastructure and volunteers), as well as make plans for future. The last thing is to put in a statement paragraph or section that will be condensed version of detailed operative plan. That is actually what we have, but with too few details. On the other hand, without general consent what members want to support you can't go in details. Vicious circle. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/21 Per Jessen :

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Sunday 20 June 2010 11:06:47 Per Jessen wrote:

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... Anyway, that is really more of a specific strategy issue, and as such not relevant for the community statement (in my opinion).

Yes it is, but that is actually something that should precede statement. Analyze what you have to cover and then decide what you will cover in the beginning with current resources (infrastructure and volunteers), as well as make plans for future.

That sounds like tactics, not strategy.

...

The last thing is to put in a statement paragraph or section that will be condensed version of detailed operative plan. That is actually what we have, but with too few details.

There is already a plan and and a strategy???  Rajko, you're way ahead of most of us I suspect.

This discussion makes me recall why, long ago, I decided to leave this community as contributor and member. It reminds me also why I unsubscribed all the mailing lists and forums (I'm subscribed to this ML for another question I had on redistributing a live, and wasn't subscribed for a while before that). It is not a community statement, or a set of well written guiding principles, a perfect strategic plan that will fix the experience a user has when he gets in touch with openSUSE (I'll use openSUSE with the broader meaning of project and community), especially if the statement does not reflect the experience. This inconsistency affects many technical aspects too (see "the most usable linux for home users", then try to use yast to connect to your windows machine, take a look at the yast printer module, or do a search on OBS), however the technical aspects are secondary, if another, more important aspect is not in place, especially when it comes to a community distribution, or a distribution that wants to be community driven. This aspect concerns personal relationships. We can write all the times we want that we should respect each other, that the community should be open to different cultures, and to different ideas, but it is not going to work if these ideals do not belong to the community members. Writing them is very easy, it takes ten minutes, but putting them in to practice does not happen at all, and if you want an example, read this thread again, and you'll see it very clearly. In a thread where the topic is the future of the project, I would expect whoever is actually interested to have a certain behaviour and attitude, being open to listen to others without writing the first rough statement coming to his mind. I would expect who discusses to do that, for example, without splitting hair with the dictionary and the grammar, given that most of us are not native English speakers, and that, anyway, it is one of the most irritating things to do when you're talking to someone. It deviates from the topic, it adds tension, and it does not add anything to the discussion. I would also expect realistic proposals, but, unfortunately, we started with an incredible discussion about getting rid off of Novell, as if it were a plague, when, without it, we would not even be here to talk about this project. Someone tried to dig out all the mistakes made in the past by Novell, as it has become routine, but that's the past of the project, and we all know what happened already. There is really no need of bringing that back every time we talk about what we should do. Reading this thread, I see some good point, but they are submerged by a level of noise that makes them irrelevant. If we cannot have a serious discussion without a level of noise superior to the level of the relevant content, we have a problem, and that problem is in the people who discusses, that cannot keep the discussion clean. I don't think we are going to convince many to be part of this community if this is the kind of discussion they'll have to be part of. I'm sorry to put it so roughly, but I have to say that if I were a new user or a new potential contributor who, by chance, read this thread, I would not have a good impression and I would probably start looking elsewhere. The reason is very simple: the discussion is about a formal aspect (imho not even that important), the definition of a community statement, and who discusses might have good points, but they're wasting their time talking, sometime not exactly in a friendly manner, about details whose impact on the final result is minimal or null. They get lost on questions that are of no interest for that potential user/contributor who wants only one thing: a simple, clear, well explained way to contribute in a friendly environment, possibly with documented procedures on how to proceed in their tasks. It's not a statement that will create this environment, and it is not the best strategy that will attract contributors. A lot more work is necessary to do that than fixing a goal, and that work starts applying the principles you are only talking about to this discussion before than to anything else, or you won't give the example, and you won't convince anyone. Sincerely, good luck. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/21 Administrator :

...

Reading this thread, I see some good point, but they are submerged by a level of noise that makes them irrelevant. If we cannot have a serious discussion without a level of noise superior to the level of the relevant content, we have a problem, and that problem is in the people who discusses, that cannot keep the discussion clean. I don't think we are going to convince many to be part of this community if this is the kind of discussion they'll have to be part of.

There is a related point which is being ignored.  A strategy will define a single objective and a method of achieving that objective.  That means that all other objectives and other methods are left out.  This will leave out some members of the community.  That is inevitable.

That would be good. OpenSUSE has a desperate need of new people in the community who carry new ideas, and of an attitude that is actually welcoming for new contributors, not only with words but with the example, with facts. There are shining examples of this in our community, too often ignored and too often criticized, just because instead of accepting the status quo, they went on following their plans, making openSUSE better as a result. If you want one, take a look at the too often criticized GNOME team, and you'll see a different reality from the average community that exists around openSUSE: for what concerns their small reality, they actually were able to work *with* their users, and some of those users are regularly contributing, without big discussions. I would say they just did it, and many didn't even notice.

This means we cannot take with us all of members of the community, and the people left out will either complain loudly, or become negative about oS.

Not necessarily. If you come out with a good and convincing strategy, you might be able to involve me, but this does not mean I'll become negative about it. If the result is something I'm not interested in, but it is good for the project, it is perfectly fine with me. What is not fine, in my opinion, is that old community members, who claim to have interest in the success of the project show exactly the opposite, re-proposing their vision old of years, in name of a distribution that is long gone. It is not fine they spend time discussing on details of the wording and of the grammar, attacking sometime each other on questions of no importance, as we are seeing here. This is going to frustrate who would like to contribute, and will produce exactly the opposite results from what openSUSE needs.

There will be a lot of noise, and potentially the day will be won by the people who complain the longest, not by the largest group or the group with the best strategy.

Since we are aware of this, maybe we can work to avoid it? Because accepting it as a fact is not going to help. This project had already its part of poor decisions because the community simply accepted. There is now an opportunity to change things, and it seems to me many are wasting it. Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2010-06-17 at 12:57 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

This includes the following activities in order to excel in our goals:

[snip]

...

* Emphasize the value of communication and recognize cultural diversity within our community

I can't help thinking that this is just a blurp (waffle; saying something only for the sake of saying it). Maybe it belongs in some other context, but it's difficult to imagine what kind of _activities_ we would untertake in this respect.

/Per Jessen, Zürich

It wasn't put in just for the sake of it. We believed strongly that people from different walks of life bring something unique to the table and that with recognition of diversity we grow a unique product from the diverse contributors. Some of the things we propose in our statements require an activity, and others may not. In the case of encouraging such diversity, we may consider reaching out to cultural areas we haven't been in before, or we may refer and remind ourselves constantly about this statement as an attitudinal emphasis. If you feel it should be worded differently or emphasized in a different way, we encourage your thoughts on those words. But one way or another, I still believe strongly in that line and it wasn't put in just for the sake of it. Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 6/17/10 1:30 PM, Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:

On Thu, 2010-06-17 at 12:57 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

This includes the following activities in order to excel in our goals:

[snip]

...

* Emphasize the value of communication and recognize cultural diversity within our community

I can't help thinking that this is just a blurp (waffle; saying something only for the sake of saying it). Maybe it belongs in some other context, but it's difficult to imagine what kind of _activities_ we would untertake in this respect.

/Per Jessen, Zürich

It wasn't put in just for the sake of it. We believed strongly that people from different walks of life bring something unique to the table and that with recognition of diversity we grow a unique product from the diverse contributors.

Some of the things we propose in our statements require an activity, and others may not. In the case of encouraging such diversity, we may consider reaching out to cultural areas we haven't been in before, or we may refer and remind ourselves constantly about this statement as an attitudinal emphasis.

If you feel it should be worded differently or emphasized in a different way, we encourage your thoughts on those words. But one way or another, I still believe strongly in that line and it wasn't put in just for the sake of it.

Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member

+1 There is a lot of value in diversity, if it is respected by all concerned. What I think needs saying is something like: "We as a community value diversity of skills, talents and cultures. This is a strength and encourages tolerance towards other ideas and opinions, even if we may disagree at times. We value honest forthright discussion when it begins from a basis of mutual respect of all members of the community. Moreover, we wish at all times to be inclusive of other languages, cultures and opinions. " I am not at my most creative today, but I instinctively understand what is trying to be put across, even if is not well articulated so far. Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:

On Thu, 2010-06-17 at 12:57 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

This includes the following activities in order to excel in our goals:

[snip]

...

* Emphasize the value of communication and recognize cultural diversity within our community

I can't help thinking that this is just a blurp (waffle; saying something only for the sake of saying it). Maybe it belongs in some other context, but it's difficult to imagine what kind of _activities_ we would untertake in this respect.

/Per Jessen, Zürich

It wasn't put in just for the sake of it. We believed strongly that people from different walks of life bring something unique to the table and that with recognition of diversity we grow a unique product from the diverse contributors.

Some of the things we propose in our statements require an activity, and others may not.

I appreciate that, but this particular item is listed under the heading "This includes the following activities in order to excel in our goals".

In the case of encouraging such diversity, we may consider reaching out to cultural areas we haven't been in before, or we may refer and remind ourselves constantly about this statement as an attitudinal emphasis.

It really sounds a lot more like a value to me.

If you feel it should be worded differently or emphasized in a different way, we encourage your thoughts on those words. But one way or another, I still believe strongly in that line and it wasn't put in just for the sake of it.

I don't mind the wording, I just don't think it belongs at all. To mention it suggests that the openSUSE community 1) does not already value communication or does not already recognize cultural diversity or 2) that the openSUSE community might not continue do so in the future. (and I don't believe either one is the case at all). /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hi all.

...

I don't mind the wording, I just don't think it belongs at all. To mention it suggests that the openSUSE community 1) does not already value communication or does not already recognize cultural diversity or

Oh, it certainly doesn't recognize gender diversity, fwiw. Only 2-3% percent of female users (data from annual openSUSE surveys) and hardly any female contributors is not quite diversified community, now is it.

We just have to make clear that there should be an area of interest for everyone, no matter what gender or color you are. Best Regards Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

* Katarina Machalkova [06-18-10 06:15]:

...

I don't mind the wording, I just don't think it belongs at all. To mention it suggests that the openSUSE community 1) does not already value communication or does not already recognize cultural diversity or

Oh, it certainly doesn't recognize gender diversity, fwiw. Only 2-3% percent of female users (data from annual openSUSE surveys) and hardly any female contributors is not quite diversified community, now is it.

Why is that? Seems the *first* step to changing that condition is to identify the root causes of it. It doesn't appear to be the *social* atmosphere, but w/o a significant presence, I don't know how one would recognize it. So, baring the social atmosphere, what is left besides a lack of interest or attraction of/to female users? -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/18 Katarina Machalkova :

...

So, baring the social atmosphere, what is left besides a lack of interest or attraction of/to female users?

Let me give you few examples:

* lack of female role models within the community (female contributors are invisible)

That's true. What do you think are the reasons of this? P.S. You're not invisible. Your work on YaST is well known. :-)

* lack of mentoring program (it's not easy to start contributing if you don't have long history of working with computers, which is many women's case , AND finding a mentor to help you get started is not incredibly easy)

True again, especially the second part.

* hostile environment (sexist comments, jokes & blogposts, and nobody protesting them)

Does this really happen in relation to the openSUSE community? Best, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

...

...

...

So, baring the social atmosphere, what is left besides a lack of interest or attraction of/to female users?

Let me give you few examples:

* lack of female role models within the community (female contributors are invisible)

That's true. What do you think are the reasons of this?

Well, if you ask me - we're moving in vicious circle. Female contributors are either non-existent or invisible. Thus, other women see no role models ( == successfull female contributors, someone who makes you think "geez, if she could succeed, I can do it as well") and they feel less motivated to start to contribute. I'm not saying it's the only demotivation factor, though, but it's certainly one of them. As a result, few women contribute and other women see no role models.

I have no clue how to break that circle. The paper I linked above gives some recommendations, though.

...

...

* hostile environment (sexist comments, jokes & blogposts, and nobody protesting them)

Does this really happen in relation to the openSUSE community?

Short answer: Yes Longer answer: Yes, but I'm not gonna point my finger at particular people or particular blogposts for personal reasons. It's not a huge blow such as death threats [1] or pr0n pics [2], it's subtle rather than overt, but it definitely happens

fB. [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2005/06/msg00235.html [2] http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk

Computer games was an area which was almost 100% male for many years. Now there are more women involved, and more women playing the games. I (personally) think the games are better and more interesting now. We have a similar situation with FLOSS (I like the acronym). What can we / are we going to do about it? David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 18/06/2010 18:31, Katarina Machalkova a écrit :

I have no clue how to break that circle.

I don't see other way than taking position. I would be very glad to see at least one woman in the board asap. Why not as Novell chair(wo)man: having such a position could be very incentive. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

* Administrator [06-18-10 11:52]:

A proposal: the oS community should aim to have a minimum of 1/4 of each committee male and 1/4 female in 1 year's time, rising to 1/3 in 2 year's time. In 5 years remove the "quotas" as it will have either worked or we will have failed collectively, if, as I assume, we all agree that women are capable of and interested in participating in this and we would all benefit by creating an environment which is attractive to all comers (not just women / men).

Reverse discrimination (usually labeled "quotas") accompolishes nothing but hard feelings. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

* Katarina Machalkova [06-18-10 10:59]:

...

So, baring the social atmosphere, what is left besides a lack of interest or attraction of/to female users?

Let me give you few examples:

* lack of female role models within the community (female contributors are invisible)

again, *why*?

* lack of mentoring program (it's not easy to start contributing if you don't have long history of working with computers, which is many women's case , AND finding a mentor to help you get started is not incredibly easy)

is it harder for a woman to find a mentor than a man?

* hostile environment (sexist comments, jokes & blogposts, and nobody protesting them)

I have not witnessed this and *would* protest. I must comment that this page has two sides. I have worked with women who could redden my ears :^).

Please find some more in this wonderful paper: http://www.flosspols.org/deliverables/FLOSSPOLS-D16- Gender_Integrated_Report_of_Findings.pdf

-- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Freitag 18 Juni 2010 schrieb Patrick Shanahan:

...

* lack of mentoring program (it's not easy to start contributing if you don't have long history of working with computers, which is many women's case , AND finding a mentor to help you get started is not incredibly easy)

is it harder for a woman to find a mentor than a man?

I don't think so. But you notice the women not finding one much easier - and perhaps if we make it easier for women to find one, we find ourselves with tons of more men too. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Katarina Machalkova wrote:

...

I don't mind the wording, I just don't think it belongs at all. To mention it suggests that the openSUSE community 1) does not already value communication or does not already recognize cultural diversity or

Oh, it certainly doesn't recognize gender diversity, fwiw.

Sorry for coming back late here, but that we have don't have much gender diversity does not mean we don't recognize it. (whatever that means). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Sankar P wrote:

I remember there were some discussions about people having email-signatures that offended some set of people. We tried to resolve it by asking the person to remove that specific signature. There were some other instances like this that are resolved with a small set of people, involved. We need to ensure that there no activities that trigger religious, political, racist connotations. So I for one don't consider this as just-a-blurp.

Hi Sankar, which activities do you suggest we, as a community, should undertake in this respect? Vincent said it very concisely - we're talking about a _value_, not a topic for activity. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos Ribeiro wrote:

My points, and I always have one, ehehe sorry mates.....

...

...

...

Per Jessen 17 Junho, 2010 >>> Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

This includes the following activities in order to excel in our goals:

[snip]

...

* Emphasize the value of communication and recognize cultural diversity within our community

...

I can't help thinking that this is just a blurp (waffle; saying something only for the sake of saying it). Maybe it belongs in some other context, but it's difficult to imagine what kind of _activities_ we would untertake in this respect.

In Brazil, we have several and different opensource activities, that only makes sense on the region the project or activities are running, example, Brazil is a big country, trust me sometimes looks like some small countries inside a big one,

I believe you, in a previously life I worked with both VASP and Varig.

because this we have some opensource events and communities that makes sense only for specific regions and does not make sense for others. This is "Emphasize the value of communication and recognize cultural diversity within our community". Some guys from north are working on some opensource solutions to full fill their needs that is quite different from the guys from south needs ;-). We need to be aware of difference culture understand their needs and help as much as we can as a community, pushing our project everywhere.

I completely agree that we need to be aware, I think we are already aware (you don't need a big country to have significant regional differences), but I don't think there is any need to put this in the "Community Statement". (unless we think we are currently not aware). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (17.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Pascal Bleser wrote:

On Thursday 17 June 2010 12:57:38 Per Jessen wrote:

...

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

This includes the following activities in order to excel in our goals: [snip]

...

* Emphasize the value of communication and recognize cultural diversity within our community

I can't help thinking that this is just a blurp (waffle; saying something only for the sake of saying it). Maybe it belongs in some other context, but it's difficult to imagine what kind of _activities_ we would untertake in this respect.

During our strategy meeting, the initial item that cause that line to be there was from me. And what the initial item was about was "making openSUSE friendlier to women" (or rather "female contributors", even though that sounds a bit odd and, don't burn me, I'm not a native English speaker ;)).

Hey, nor am I, so I get to flame you anyway .... :-)

And my proposal was to actively reach out.

I certainly would not want to discourage that concept, but I don't think it is an issue that openSUSE need to address. There are differences between the sexes and they will always remain. How attractive IT and technology is or can be made to the female gender varies quite a bit from country to country (gender stereotypes always get in the way). I am not suggesting that we make openSUSE some sort of exclusive male territory, but for us to attempt to be more attractive to the female user would simply be beyond our capabilities. IMHO. (okay, certainly beyond MY capabilities). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 17/06/2010 23:09, Vincent Untz a écrit :

Can we reword this to: "make everyone feel welcome in our community, regardless of their gender, culture, or in general, background"?

http://wiki.tldp.org/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO I don't see what we can really do in this respect. It's not an openSUSE specific problem (AFAIK) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz wrote:

Le jeudi 17 juin 2010, à 23:15 +0200, jdd a écrit :

...

Le 17/06/2010 23:09, Vincent Untz a écrit :

...

Can we reword this to: "make everyone feel welcome in our community, regardless of their gender, culture, or in general, background"?

http://wiki.tldp.org/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO

I don't see what we can really do in this respect. It's not an openSUSE specific problem (AFAIK)

We can certainly educate our community, as a first step. Many behaviors are really putting off people from different backgrounds (not just women).

We can also have some mentorship program specifically targetted at some groups. Or (taking the examples of encouraging women) help a few women to grow in a role model to attract other women.

It's not specific to openSUSE, but that doesn't mean we can't try to improve things in openSUSE :-)

Can we perhaps make it openSUSE-specific please? To anyone else with desires to improve the world, may I suggest you join the army, the opposition, Medecin sans Frontiere, Amnesty, Greenpeace, or any other society that suits your intentions. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010 23:25:19 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

We can certainly educate our community, as a first step. Many behaviors are really putting off people from different backgrounds (not just women).

This is certainly true. We had a request over in the forums for a section that was friendly to the elderly because some of the behaviours that are considered acceptable within the community as a whole (and the forums in particular) might be off-putting to those who are more advanced in age. My own personal feeling is that it doesn't make sense to segregate the community based on arbitrary lines of race/gender/age/etc, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense to try to make the community more accepting of those differences. In the forums in particular, I've noticed that there are two separate audiences served. 1) the technical audience who prefers web forums (or NNTP groups) to e-mail lists, and 2) a non-technical audience that is made up of mostly end-users. This makes for an interesting - and occasionally volatile - combination. The technical audience tends to apply tact to what is being said to them; the non-technical audience tends to apply tact to what they say. Mixing the two can be a challenge (I know I've mentioned this idea of a 'tact filter' on the user list in the past - that's what I'm talking about here as well).

From a standpoint of making a community statement, it makes sense to me to make it clear that the community consists of not just a geographic/ racial/gender/ethnic diversity, but also a diversity in the technical skills of the membership as well. It shouldn't be assumed that because one is using openSUSE that one possesses deep technical knowledge about computing environments.

Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. schreef:

On Thursday 17 June 2010 18:32:24 Jim Henderson wrote:

...

From a standpoint of making a community statement, it makes sense to me to make it clear that the community consists of not just a geographic/ racial/gender/ethnic diversity, but also a diversity in the technical skills of the membership as well. It shouldn't be assumed that because one is using openSUSE that one possesses deep technical knowledge about computing environments.

+1

It is probably good to plan active helpers education about complexity of knowledge today.

Being expert in one field doesn't automatically extends skill level to another.

Being computer expert doesn't gives anyone right to treat all that are not computer experts as dummies.

I realy like this attitude, as all things have to be learned to become skilled in: it just takes determination and perseverence to reach the goal. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball, aka M9. OS: Linux 2.6.27.19-3.2-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.1 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 103" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

During our strategy meeting, the initial item that cause that line to be there was from me. And what the initial item was about was "making openSUSE friendlier to women" (or rather "female contributors", even though that sounds a bit odd and, don't burn me, I'm not a native English speaker ;)).

Thanks Pascal for bringing this up. Each time I tried to do so among openSUSE contributors and colleagues (all male) in my close proximity, I was only laughed at, the most frequent arguments being: "Making openSUSE friendlier to female contributors is the same as making it friendlier to LGBTs, Chinese Jews or squirels, because those are also in minority", or "It makes no difference to me whether openSUSE users and contributors are male, female, LGBTs, Chinese Jews or squirels, so I don't see why we should try to get specifically more women." So I never ever dared to come out in the open with the idea of opensuse-women ( incl. other activities, such as mentoring program, making female contributors more visible, thus providing role-models, improving code of conduct etc.), because I didn't really want to be laughed at once again. Moreover, it seemed to me pointless to come up with supply (program for female contributors) when there was seemingly no demand. In a sense, few openSUSE guys are happy to be in all-boys club with no women standing in their way, the rest is just not giving a damn about what gender and species the contributors are and the number of involved women (visibly involved, I mean, in planetsuse, factory, forums etc.) is 1-digit number, so there's hardly anyone that would complain about the current status. Maybe I was just selfish and I didn't want to feel so lonely in openSUSE anymore. Maybe it was just me and nobody else seeing the advantages of more diversified community (more creative ideas resulting from combinining different points of view, male and female, for example). But I essentialy reconciled myself with the fact that I'm not strong enough to find some support for the idea, so I basically stopped talking about it. fB. -- \\\\\ Katarina Machalkova \\\\\\\__o OOo developer __\\\\\\\'/_ & hedgehog painter

On Friday 2010-06-18 16:06, Administrator wrote:

If you want a good reason - it's because nobody else in the open source community is doing so. Women make up 50% of the human race (+- a bit), and, in my experience, they interpret the world differently to men. The technology is gender neutral, but the way it's used (functionality) is not, and the way it's presented (UI) certainly isn't.

How do you determine whether a UI is or is not gender neutral? I don't mean any pinkish HK background, but like, the current OpenSuse KDE theme for example. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 06/18/2010 07:53 PM, Vincent Untz wrote:

Le vendredi 18 juin 2010, à 16:06 +0200, Administrator a écrit :

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Thanks Pascal for bringing this up. Each time I tried to do so among openSUSE contributors and colleagues (all male) in my close proximity, I was only laughed at, the most frequent arguments being: "Making openSUSE friendlier to female contributors is the same as making it friendlier to LGBTs, Chinese Jews or squirels, because those are also in minority", or "It makes no difference to me whether openSUSE users and contributors are male, female, LGBTs, Chinese Jews or squirels, so I don't see why we should try to get specifically more women."

If you want a good reason - it's because nobody else in the open source community is doing so.

Which is actually wrong: http://women.debian.org/home/ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Women http://ubuntu-women.org/ http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWomen (and probably many more)

Saying "pff, we don't need that" is just the usual reaction. We can make our project attractive for women, and we should :-)

Hey all , Yes even I very much support this reason and if things fall in right place , we can make our events more livelier :-) apart from other major jobs (Goal oriented). So how do we achieve this ? What interests do we look for ? Will it be only to 'develop' (I dont think so , openSUSE never focused only on developers) .We'll be needing them for every possible job. SO (according to me). . .. 1) Women - Itself is a broad chapter : We need to first get someone who can tell us - what a gal would actually look in an OS .I have seen few gals using Mac with some Pink theme and make it more girly . Also having advice from them in certain sectors, ask them to handle jobs where Women can make a big impact (I am not getting anything like that now , but there 'IS' for sure) would be a good thing overall. Just my 2 cents ;-) . -- Regards SJ (Shayon) openSUSE Member http://en.opensuse.org/User:wwarlock http://shayonj.wordpress.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 06/18/2010 08:18 PM, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

I've nothing against the idea, but I do not understand how to make openSUSE "attractive to women"? What is preventing them now to take part to the community life and contribute? Are we so women-unfriendly, or they're simply not interested? I don't see a difference in treatment for men and women when they get in touch with the openSUSE community, at least not the online one.

Hi, I suppose there are not many who would prefer to sit in front of xChat and talk about development .But they are interested in such things and we need to find better ways to coordinate with them .So yes , if you dont see much of female population around openSUSE , it is kinda 'women-unfreindly' :-) . Regards SJ (Shayon) openSUSE Member http://en.opensuse.org/User:wwarlock http://shayonj.wordpress.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2010/6/18 Shayon Mukherjee :

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I suppose there are not many who would prefer to sit in front of xChat and talk about development .But they are interested in such things and we need to find better ways to coordinate with them .So yes , if you dont see much of female population around openSUSE , it is kinda 'women-unfreindly' :-) .

That's a stretch. You are either friendly or unfriendly with users. Women or not, it makes no difference IMHO, and it should not be targeted in a special way. If they are interested in taking part to the community, I don't see anything that limits that (feel free to point me to something, I might have missed something).

That's one of the things I learned in the last 20 years of colored rights / gay rights / women's rights - that if you're not part of the group that feels excluded / disadvantaged then you don't see the things that are doing it. Few people discriminate deliberately, but many (including I) do it without thought because we're not aware. You become aware by asking and listening. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 18 June 2010 17:54:51 Administrator wrote:

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2010/6/18 Shayon Mukherjee :

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I suppose there are not many who would prefer to sit in front of xChat and talk about development .But they are interested in such things and we need to find better ways to coordinate with them .So yes , if you dont see much of female population around openSUSE , it is kinda 'women-unfreindly' :-) .

That's a stretch. You are either friendly or unfriendly with users. Women or not, it makes no difference IMHO, and it should not be targeted in a special way. If they are interested in taking part to the community, I don't see anything that limits that (feel free to point me to something, I might have missed something).

That's one of the things I learned in the last 20 years of colored rights / gay rights / women's rights - that if you're not part of the group that feels excluded / disadvantaged then you don't see the things that are doing it. Few people discriminate deliberately, but many (including I) do it without thought because we're not aware. You become aware by asking and listening.

That is _exactly_ the point. One doesn't even realise our behaviour is discriminatory. It's not to say we're all evil asshats, but we all do, it simply comes from the environment and a strong set of wrong beliefs (that IT is not for women, that women are not good at tech in general, the "secretaries" thing (= the usual noob user being secretaries, which are usually women), etc...) Saying "well, they can just step up and say what's wrong" isn't the right approach either. If we actually want to be much friendlier to e.g. women, then we _must_ do some sort of positive discrimination. What I mean by that is e.g. - putting the (arguably, very few as of now) women in our community forward - actively seek feedback and proposals on what we should do to achieve that goal (by asking whom is concerned -- in this case, women) - actively seek feedback on what we're doing wrong (and I'm sure that's plenty) But those are just ideas, and the only useful feedback can only come from women (in this case). On a side note, I think that having a pink wallpaper as a measure to be more proactive towards women is exactly such a case of discrimination ¬¬ The sort of things I've heard by discussing with several women (who try to make FOSS more open and attractive to women) is along the lines of actively poking women for their feedback, their presence, putting them into the spotlight. Because they are generally less confident to step up on their own, at least in the beginning. Given the situation in FOSS, and IT in general, this is quite understandable. Keep in mind that when they do so, they do it in an environment where ~98% are men, with a non-negligible amount of those men doing sarcastic comments about women in IT. So it's not just "well, if something is wrong, they can just step up and say it". Discriminatory opinions and comments about women in IT are everywhere, both in professional and opensource environments. If you're curious about it, just try to pay attention to it for a while. We all do. And I'm sure everyone has already witnessed what happens when a women says she is on IRC. But I'm quite confident that Katarina could tell us a lot more about that, and possibly also about what we should do (and especially what we shouldn't do) to make it a friendlier place for women. I guess pretty much everyone would agree that having more female contributors could really bring more energy, fresh ideas and sometimes slightly differentiated opinions to the community. cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::6+7 Feb 2010, Brussels, http://fosdem.org

Am Freitag 18 Juni 2010 schrieb Andreas Jaeger:

On Friday 18 June 2010 16:48:10 Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

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I don't think making openSUSE attractive for women is "a strategy", which should focus on broad goals.

If we make women as target audience of our strategy, we hit 50 % of the world ;) Oh boy, if we had the other 50% full I think we should target the rest. For now I think a much broader part of the world should be targeted. _Targetting_ women sounds wrong to me, targetting smart and friendly people will give you enough women.

Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 18/06/2010 16:23, Vincent Untz a écrit :

Which is actually wrong: http://women.debian.org/home/ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Women http://ubuntu-women.org/ http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWomen (and probably many more)

and do they have a better result than we have? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Freitag 18 Juni 2010 schrieb Vincent Untz:

Le vendredi 18 juin 2010, à 16:06 +0200, Administrator a écrit :

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Thanks Pascal for bringing this up. Each time I tried to do so among openSUSE contributors and colleagues (all male) in my close proximity, I was only laughed at, the most frequent arguments being: "Making openSUSE friendlier to female contributors is the same as making it friendlier to LGBTs, Chinese Jews or squirels, because those are also in minority", or "It makes no difference to me whether openSUSE users and contributors are male, female, LGBTs, Chinese Jews or squirels, so I don't see why we should try to get specifically more women."

If you want a good reason - it's because nobody else in the open source community is doing so.

Which is actually wrong: http://women.debian.org/home/ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Women

Yeah, good examples on how not to do it I suppose? E.g. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-women-list/ shows why extra mailing lists for women is not adding anything good. Honestly: to me these "sub projects for women" look like a way for men to keep the women out of the real thing. The only thing I think we should pick - and that's not only useful for women, but for all new comers - is a list of volunteers mentoring. E.g. making it clear, that there are nice people out there willing to help if your first contact in bugzilla/irc was a failure, but you're still not willing to give up. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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Which is actually wrong: http://women.debian.org/home/ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Women

Yeah, good examples on how not to do it I suppose? E.g. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-women-list/ shows why extra mailing lists for women is not adding anything good.

I admit I know next to nothing about Fedora-women project and about the reasons why it failed, but why not just use the former entry in the list (Debian-women) as an example how a women sub-project can actually add a lot of good? For almost 5 years of its existence of DW here's what they've achieved: * Significant increase in number of female Debian developers and package maintainers (don't have exact numbers as for the present, I think they've started with as much as 4 of those in 2005, today it's certainly 2-digit number, so at least 3-fold rise) * Greater visibility of female DDs and PMs * Greater awareness of specific issues women in FLOSS have to face (sexism, online harrassment etc.) and people actively speaking out against them * A woman (Marga Manterola) running for the most senior position of Debian Project Lead Would Debian community make all of those happen if it wasn't for Debian-women project? Well, maybe. And maybe not.

Honestly: to me these "sub projects for women" look like a way for men to keep the women out of the real thing.

Actually, their purpose is just the opposite - to integrate women better into the community. From DW's statement of purpose: http://women.debian.org/about/ "We seek to balance and diversify the Debian Project by actively engaging with interested women and encouraging them to become more involved with Debian." fB. -- \\\\\ Katarina Machalkova \\\\\\\__o OOo developer __\\\\\\\'/_ & hedgehog painter

Aloha, On Friday 18 June 2010 13:18:23 Katarina Machalkova wrote (shortened):

I was only laughed at, the most frequent arguments being: "Making openSUSE friendlier to female contributors is the same as making it friendlier to LGBTs, Chinese Jews or squirels, because those are also in minority", or "It makes no difference to me whether openSUSE users and contributors are male, female, LGBTs, Chinese Jews or squirels, so I don't see why we should try to get specifically more women."

This is only her way to express her feelings and nobody ever said it in that term!

So I never ever dared to come out in the open with the idea of opensuse-women ( incl. other activities, such as mentoring program, making female contributors more visible, thus providing role-models, improving code of conduct etc.), because I didn't really want to be laughed at once again.

And this is a lame excuse for not supporting the girls that tried this already! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org