On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 11:41:41PM +0000, Nelson Marques wrote:
I hope you don't mind an off-list reply, but since this works a bit
like a personal explanation from my previous words on the list, it
seemed nicer this way.
1) My position about the Foundation: I'm against. While it made a
certain sense in the Novell days, even if it was a matter of identity,
in current days in a SUSE Linux context, creating a Foundation doesn't
bring any value to openSUSE or SUSE; I believe it will be bad for both
parties, it defeats the purpose of 'union' in while I believe.
2) My position regarding openSUSE: Lots of cool people, lots of
potential, poor governance, lack of identity. This is how I see
openSUSE, other might have different views, this is mine. openSUSE
should be one of the main flagships under the SUSE Linux umbrella,
which turns 1) into a True.
1 and 2 had never been the topic as part of this thread. Why are you
jumping and switching around? What's the goal? This had been a
discussion about where the discussion about the openSUSE evergreen
project should happen.
Some suggested to use the existing list which is not hosted at
, other suggested to create a fresh one at
, while I stress to create a fresh one only if the
need is proven. That's all. Nothing more got discussed.
If you see the need to discuss other issues you see, please start a
3) My position regarding Evergreen: no one really
know what it is,
else there would be no real reason for the thread which originated
this reply. Tumbleweed is the most visible 'brand' of openSUSE outside
Tumbleweed is a sometimes working and other times failing trial.
Nothing more. I tried it and for me it failed. It's much better to
focus on getting issues fixed for a released openSUSE version. Which
got much, much easier with a more releaxed, better more reasonable
update policy. File bug reports and confince the maintainer to work on
an update. Then get it released and the majority will get it as they
don't have to tweak with additional repositories!
I have to stress, that the kernel isn't my pat. I'm happy if it boots
and doesn't oops.
I would like to see Evergreen achieving the same, and
hopefully fill the gap that there's demand: a 'personal server'
capable release that could last for 3/5 years would be cool for a
'community thing'. Since I believe that there is demand for Evergreen,
since it could have some usage for me... I think it's worth supporting
it in the way that the people which actually commit to it want... if
that's a mailing list... it's a cheap price :)
Mailing lists are anything else than cheap. And this is not about the
cost of operation. It's about the effect of fragmentation of a
Unfortunately you have given null arguments why there is a need for yet
another list. Sorry, you're ignoring arguments and don't present your
Again: A project isn't more important if it has more lists. The
opposite is the case. More lists cause more fragmentation and
And if there is a dedicated evergreen list already. Good, let it be
where it is. But I vote strongly against yet another list at
till it isn't proven that there is a need.
Some statistics needed? Since mid Dec 2010 we have seen 650 postings
to the list. These are approximately 46.42 postings per months. Or
roughly 1.5 per day.
0 posting from me and surprise, surprise also zero from Nelson! Well,
looks like both of us should better shut up. :)
Do we need stats by people?
Wolfgang Rosenauer 172
Greg Freemyer 135
Stefan Lijewski 77
Marcus Meissner 38
I'm stopping here as these already prenting more than 70% of the over
Make a different count and check how many kernel developrs wrote to the
list. From a rough check I believe even a dude working at a sawmill
would still be able to count them with one hand.
Check back on the opensuse-factory or opensuse(a)opensuse.org how many
kernel people are (still) there.
Do yopu still believe yet another list makes it more attarctive to
contribute to openSUSE evergreen?
Goog luck cowboy!¹
4) The mailing list issue: If more synergies around
only on a mailing list? Sure... let it be the 101th mailing list, I
couldn't care less. About Samba mailing lists... if that helps
developers who are actually working for it... why not? If they are
against and want to supress them... sure, since they are putting the
work, let them organize as they want... Same for evergreen or any
other project. The "software police" thingie should be applied higher
in the chain, not on the basic projects where people "cut stone" :)
Sorry, this is also my project. I'm using SUSE and contibute since more
than a decade. Even a long time before I got employed. This is also my
baby. And I don't like to see people directing it into an unproductive,
useless, and even unattractive direction.
I do respect a lot (and value) people with different
because I believe there was maybe some misunderstanding on the list
thread, I feel this email is somehow more explicit and un-complicated.
Well, misunderstandings are always very, very likely due to this kind of
communication. Therefore you have to argue and to be as less vague as
¹ thx Greg for this lovely phrase once again!
Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ]
SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany