[opensuse-project] Evergreen release planning
Hi, within the Evergreen project http://en.opensuse.org/Evergreen we are planning to designate openSUSE 11.4 as the next Evergreen supported release. There are several reasons why 11.4 is a good candidate in our opinion and it even was my proposal in the beginning of Evergreen. Still we would like to hear your opinions and we actually are also looking for contributors to make the next Evergreen a success. The previous Evergreen releases 11.1 and 11.2 still had a "kind of experimental" flag and not many people working on it. I've created a simple poll here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dGpHRW5XVjJSbGpoakk5UUx... Please only submit if you care about Evergreen as a user or contributor. Everyone interested is also invited to join the mailinglist as described in the wiki page. And yes, in case Evergreen takes off (according to your feedback) with next release the existing list will be moved to openSUSE infrastructure. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, I've cast my vote and I'm willing to contribute for Evergreen with 3 packages: * JBoss Application Server * JRuby * Darwin Streaming Server NM 2012/2/10 Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@rosenauer.org>:
Hi,
within the Evergreen project http://en.opensuse.org/Evergreen we are planning to designate openSUSE 11.4 as the next Evergreen supported release. There are several reasons why 11.4 is a good candidate in our opinion and it even was my proposal in the beginning of Evergreen.
Still we would like to hear your opinions and we actually are also looking for contributors to make the next Evergreen a success. The previous Evergreen releases 11.1 and 11.2 still had a "kind of experimental" flag and not many people working on it.
I've created a simple poll here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dGpHRW5XVjJSbGpoakk5UUx...
Please only submit if you care about Evergreen as a user or contributor. Everyone interested is also invited to join the mailinglist as described in the wiki page. And yes, in case Evergreen takes off (according to your feedback) with next release the existing list will be moved to openSUSE infrastructure.
Wolfgang
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques /* http://www.marques.so nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi Wolfgang, On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 09:27:59AM +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
within the Evergreen project http://en.opensuse.org/Evergreen we are planning to designate openSUSE 11.4 as the next Evergreen supported release. There are several reasons why 11.4 is a good candidate in our opinion and it even was my proposal in the beginning of Evergreen.
Please let us use 12.1. Cause 12.1 has systemd and optional can be switched back to sysvinit. This is not to start a heated discussion about this particular and hot topic. This is about free choice and opportunities.
Still we would like to hear your opinions and we actually are also looking for contributors to make the next Evergreen a success. The previous Evergreen releases 11.1 and 11.2 still had a "kind of experimental" flag and not many people working on it.
I've created a simple poll here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dGpHRW5XVjJSbGpoakk5UUx...
Please only submit if you care about Evergreen as a user or contributor. Everyone interested is also invited to join the mailinglist as described in the wiki page. And yes, in case Evergreen takes off (according to your feedback) with next release the existing list will be moved to openSUSE infrastructure.
Why not using one of the existing lists and use a well speaking prefix in all subjects? Like EG? I'm not going to subscribe to the 106754th list. ;) Thanks, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
Hi, Am 10.02.2012 10:44, schrieb Lars Müller:
Please let us use 12.1. Cause 12.1 has systemd and optional can be switched back to sysvinit. This is not to start a heated discussion about this particular and hot topic. This is about free choice and opportunities.
I'm not sure if 12.1 would be the best candidate because it has two things most people do not want (yet) which is systemd and Gnome 3 IMHO. I haven't switched to 12.1 on my laptop because of the latter.
Why not using one of the existing lists and use a well speaking prefix in all subjects? Like EG? I'm not going to subscribe to the 106754th list. ;)
I'm open for it. What would be the correct list for you? I don't see an obvious candidate. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 10:55:58AM +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 10.02.2012 10:44, schrieb Lars Müller:
Please let us use 12.1. Cause 12.1 has systemd and optional can be switched back to sysvinit. This is not to start a heated discussion about this particular and hot topic. This is about free choice and opportunities.
I'm not sure if 12.1 would be the best candidate because it has two things most people do not want (yet) which is systemd and Gnome 3 IMHO. I haven't switched to 12.1 on my laptop because of the latter.
Well, the Gnome argument. Good point, missed as I'm not using it.
Why not using one of the existing lists and use a well speaking prefix in all subjects? Like EG? I'm not going to subscribe to the 106754th list. ;)
I'm open for it. What would be the correct list for you? I don't see an obvious candidate.
opensuse@opensuse.org ? I would start with the as generic as possible one. This clearly isn't opensuse-factory to me. Cheers, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
Le vendredi 10 février 2012, à 10:55 +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer a écrit :
Hi,
Am 10.02.2012 10:44, schrieb Lars Müller:
Please let us use 12.1. Cause 12.1 has systemd and optional can be switched back to sysvinit. This is not to start a heated discussion about this particular and hot topic. This is about free choice and opportunities.
I'm not sure if 12.1 would be the best candidate because it has two things most people do not want (yet) which is systemd and Gnome 3 IMHO. I haven't switched to 12.1 on my laptop because of the latter.
I wouldn't go for 12.1 either, because GNOME 3 is currently moving very fast, so that'd be a pain to have 3.2 there (it's too young). So for me, it's not because people might not want it -- it's just that it's better to wait :-) (The same argument is likely valid for systemd) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 10/02/2012 10:55, Wolfgang Rosenauer a écrit :
I'm open for it. What would be the correct list for you? I don't see an obvious candidate.
obviously Factory for updates/technical advices and opensuse for large spread (and forums) jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
* Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@rosenauer.org> [02-10-12 04:57]:
Am 10.02.2012 10:44, schrieb Lars Müller:
Please let us use 12.1. Cause 12.1 has systemd and optional can be switched back to sysvinit. This is not to start a heated discussion about this particular and hot topic. This is about free choice and opportunities.
I'm not sure if 12.1 would be the best candidate because it has two things most people do not want (yet) which is systemd and Gnome 3 IMHO. I haven't switched to 12.1 on my laptop because of the latter.
Why not using one of the existing lists and use a well speaking prefix in all subjects? Like EG? I'm not going to subscribe to the 106754th list. ;)
I'm open for it. What would be the correct list for you? I don't see an obvious candidate.
opensuse-factory, which also gets tumbleweed. Both should be prefixed with initials -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org> wrote:
* Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@rosenauer.org> [02-10-12 04:57]:
Am 10.02.2012 10:44, schrieb Lars Müller:
Please let us use 12.1. Cause 12.1 has systemd and optional can be switched back to sysvinit. This is not to start a heated discussion about this particular and hot topic. This is about free choice and opportunities.
I'm not sure if 12.1 would be the best candidate because it has two things most people do not want (yet) which is systemd and Gnome 3 IMHO. I haven't switched to 12.1 on my laptop because of the latter.
Why not using one of the existing lists and use a well speaking prefix in all subjects? Like EG? I'm not going to subscribe to the 106754th list. ;)
I'm open for it. What would be the correct list for you? I don't see an obvious candidate.
opensuse-factory, which also gets tumbleweed. Both should be prefixed with initials
-factory is for things newer than the latest full release, so tumbleweed makes sense there, but not evergreen. It's got to be either the main opensuse list, or its own list as far as I'm concerned. I'd go with the main list. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:55:58 +0100 Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@rosenauer.org> wrote:
What would be the correct list for you? I don't see an obvious candidate.
Permanent solution: evergreen@opensuse.org (with additional bonus; it will be first list in recent times without 2 times opensuse in its name) Temporary: Just plain opensuse@opensuse.org as it is anyway used for support. The tag should be just [Evergreen], not EG and any other inventive way to obscure actual name and make people learn 2 things instead of one. For those lazy to type, it is good to know your mail client, and templates it can create. For instance Claws Mail can create custom templates per folder where subject starts with [Evergreen] , and it has filters that can put mail with [Evergreen] in that folder. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 07:02:31PM -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:55:58 +0100 Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@rosenauer.org> wrote:
What would be the correct list for you? I don't see an obvious candidate.
Permanent solution: evergreen@opensuse.org
No. As said before no further new lists without the proofen need. And need is proofen by traffic. And not by the loudness of the requests. Please count the lists openSUSE already is offering at lists.openSUSE.org They had been more than 80 last time I counted them.
(with additional bonus; it will be first list in recent times without 2 times opensuse in its name)
Temporary: Just plain opensuse@opensuse.org as it is anyway used for support. The tag should be just [Evergreen], not EG and any other inventive way to obscure actual name and make people learn 2 things instead of one.
Why not using something short and easy as EG as prefix? Please alwas keep KISS in mind. Keep It Simple Stupid. ;) Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
2012/2/12 Lars Müller <lmuelle@suse.de>:
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 07:02:31PM -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:55:58 +0100 Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@rosenauer.org> wrote:
What would be the correct list for you? I don't see an obvious candidate.
Permanent solution: evergreen@opensuse.org
No. As said before no further new lists without the proofen need. And need is proofen by traffic. And not by the loudness of the requests.
Lars, According to that view, there would be no grounds for opensuse-foundation to be created, it's easy for everyone to see... I'm pretty sure that more example can be found if you just look into: "And need is profen by traffic". So where do we stand? Are really 1st class community citizens and 2nd class community citizens ? Please enlighten us...
Please count the lists openSUSE already is offering at lists.openSUSE.org They had been more than 80 last time I counted them.
Between a project that wants to earn it's own lifestream and vitallity and a few defunct lists that are on that webpage, I'm not really sure if you are acting to protect or to harm openSUSE with such claims.
(with additional bonus; it will be first list in recent times without 2 times opensuse in its name)
Temporary: Just plain opensuse@opensuse.org as it is anyway used for support. The tag should be just [Evergreen], not EG and any other inventive way to obscure actual name and make people learn 2 things instead of one.
Why not using something short and easy as EG as prefix?
Please alwas keep KISS in mind. Keep It Simple Stupid. ;)
That's what you are trying to label us at with this email... you just assumed everyone is stupid... and people will be stupid not to raise arms against your arguments because they make no sense... For them to make sense then the opensuse-foundation list should never existed because it's traffic is an embarassment to this community (there's others, that one was just one first I remembered). Thanks for showing us a bit more on how openSUSE is run by SUSE :)
Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
-- Nelson Marques /* http://www.marques.so nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 04:43:10PM +0000, Nelson Marques wrote:
2012/2/12 Lars Müller <lmuelle@suse.de>:
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 07:02:31PM -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:55:58 +0100 Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@rosenauer.org> wrote:
What would be the correct list for you? I don't see an obvious candidate.
Permanent solution: evergreen@opensuse.org
No. As said before no further new lists without the proofen need. And need is proofen by traffic. And not by the loudness of the requests.
According to that view, there would be no grounds for opensuse-foundation to be created, it's easy for everyone to see... I'm pretty sure that more example can be found if you just look into: "And need is profen by traffic".
So where do we stand? Are really 1st class community citizens and 2nd class community citizens ?
Please enlighten us...
This is no question of first and second class. More than 80 lists isn't good to a project. Check how many of these lists had close to no traffic in the last three months or half year, Then you might get the direction of my suggestion. Or check a project like Samba. How are we able to handle it with only two lists since so many years? And to my negative surprise I've seen we now have a dedicated opensuse-arm list too. This is anything else than good to the project I fear. Cause more and more lists cause more fragmentation of the communication.
Please count the lists openSUSE already is offering at lists.openSUSE.org They had been more than 80 last time I counted them.
Between a project that wants to earn it's own lifestream and vitallity and a few defunct lists that are on that webpage, I'm not really sure if you are acting to protect or to harm openSUSE with such claims.
It is to protect and to focus. Look, I'm not going to subscribe to any additional openSUSE list. I'm already on to many.
(with additional bonus; it will be first list in recent times without 2 times opensuse in its name)
Temporary: Just plain opensuse@opensuse.org as it is anyway used for support. The tag should be just [Evergreen], not EG and any other inventive way to obscure actual name and make people learn 2 things instead of one.
Why not using something short and easy as EG as prefix?
Please alwas keep KISS in mind. Keep It Simple Stupid. ;)
That's what you are trying to label us at with this email...
Are you trying to turn my message in a different direction as it was intended? The goal is to keep the communication focussed. Not to label any here as stupid or anything else.
you just assumed everyone is stupid... and people will be stupid not to raise arms against your arguments because they make no sense... For them to make sense then the opensuse-foundation list should never existed because it's traffic is an embarassment to this community (there's others, that one was just one first I remembered).
Well, even for this topic the basic mailing list rules apply. Why should there be any difference?
Thanks for showing us a bit more on how openSUSE is run by SUSE :)
My opinion has close to nothing to do with the opinion of SUSE. This is my personal view and in this particular case also written in my private time. Thanks, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
<snip>
This is no question of first and second class. More than 80 lists isn't good to a project. Check how many of these lists had close to no traffic in the last three months or half year, Then you might get the direction of my suggestion.
I do agree with you that 80 lists might be not so good for a project, but this lists should be analysed on a "per se" basis, and I find it also not good that a project that acts under the umbrella brand doesn't have a dedicated mailing list because there are already too much lists (in which many shouldn't even exist). In other words, your stance bring more harm than good to Evergreen because others earlier might have taken the wrong decision regarding to lists. Furthermore... not all need to be signed in all lists, but the special requirements of Evergreen can easilly justify having it's own list... and not having it might reduce the hability that people have to re-structure and organize the project... In other words, if you are not part of the solution, you are becoming a part of the problem.
Or check a project like Samba. How are we able to handle it with only two lists since so many years?
not my fight.
And to my negative surprise I've seen we now have a dedicated opensuse-arm list too. This is anything else than good to the project I fear. Cause more and more lists cause more fragmentation of the communication.
Denying a list to a project that clearly can take advantage of it is neither good, despite if you like it or not.
Please count the lists openSUSE already is offering at lists.openSUSE.org They had been more than 80 last time I counted them.
Between a project that wants to earn it's own lifestream and vitallity and a few defunct lists that are on that webpage, I'm not really sure if you are acting to protect or to harm openSUSE with such claims.
It is to protect and to focus. Look, I'm not going to subscribe to any additional openSUSE list. I'm already on to many.
Good point... So how are people who want to do things for Evergreen are going to focus? On a Factory mailing list? on a project mailing list? Please show us your solutions on how to coordinate or run a project without a simple thing like a mailing list... that's something I bet most of us would be delighted to ear, instead of the traditional "I dont like this". <snip>
Well, even for this topic the basic mailing list rules apply. Why should there be any difference?
Thanks for showing us a bit more on how openSUSE is run by SUSE :)
My opinion has close to nothing to do with the opinion of SUSE. This is my personal view and in this particular case also written in my private time.
My personal stance is that it's far more easier to achieve the goal of Evergreen by forking SLE like CentOS did with Red Hat than go through all of this crap that leads no where... It's becoming far easier to work off project than within project. My .02 cents.
Thanks,
Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
-- Nelson Marques /* http://www.marques.so nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 06:58:36PM +0000, Nelson Marques wrote: [ 8< ]
This is no question of first and second class. More than 80 lists isn't good to a project. Check how many of these lists had close to no traffic in the last three months or half year, Then you might get the direction of my suggestion.
I do agree with you that 80 lists might be not so good for a project, but this lists should be analysed on a "per se" basis, and I find it also not good that a project that acts under the umbrella brand doesn't have a dedicated mailing list because there are already too much lists (in which many shouldn't even exist).
In other words, your stance bring more harm than good to Evergreen because others earlier might have taken the wrong decision regarding to lists. Furthermore... not all need to be signed in all lists, but the special requirements of Evergreen can easilly justify having it's own list... and not having it might reduce the hability that people have to re-structure and organize the project...
In other words, if you are not part of the solution, you are becoming a part of the problem.
Sorry, I'm not able to see how my suggestion to keep the openSUSE traffic as long as a particular topic doesn't harm on the main list causes potential trouble. But this might be a language issue. Or simply a question of logic. To Wolfgang who's driving evergreen this all had been less an issue. And to me this is neither. Cause either if a new list is created someone lese might pass what ever Samba version from the network:samba name space of the Open Build Servive to evergreen or even not.
Or check a project like Samba. How are we able to handle it with only two lists since so many years?
not my fight.
What are you trying to express with this sentence? That you don't care about the argument? I've given an example how a huge project is able to work with two lists. openSUSE has already more than 80. Do you see the contrast? That was my goal. Independent if you use or don't use Samba. This is a generic argument.
And to my negative surprise I've seen we now have a dedicated opensuse-arm list too. This is anything else than good to the project I fear. Cause more and more lists cause more fragmentation of the communication.
Denying a list to a project that clearly can take advantage of it is neither good, despite if you like it or not.
I don't like the idea and argue against it. I'm not in the role to deny anything what's happening with openSUSE. That's what I even tried to express with my previous answer. Sometimes it's quite usefull to read mails you reply to. ;) Or to ask back if something wasn't clear enough.
Please count the lists openSUSE already is offering at lists.openSUSE.org They had been more than 80 last time I counted them.
Between a project that wants to earn it's own lifestream and vitallity and a few defunct lists that are on that webpage, I'm not really sure if you are acting to protect or to harm openSUSE with such claims.
It is to protect and to focus. Look, I'm not going to subscribe to any additional openSUSE list. I'm already on to many.
Good point... So how are people who want to do things for Evergreen are going to focus? On a Factory mailing list? on a project mailing list?
Please show us your solutions on how to coordinate or run a project without a simple thing like a mailing list... that's something I bet most of us would be delighted to ear, instead of the traditional "I dont like this".
We have opensuse@opensuse.org as written in my initial reply. This existing list we can use for the evergreen purpose too. And as soon as evergreen causes to much noise comapred to all the other topics then it's time to requests a dedicated list. That's the generic way how mailing lists of projects are organized. A fresh list isn't created on request. There must the a proofen need.
Well, even for this topic the basic mailing list rules apply. Why should there be any difference?
Thanks for showing us a bit more on how openSUSE is run by SUSE :)
My opinion has close to nothing to do with the opinion of SUSE. This is my personal view and in this particular case also written in my private time.
My personal stance is that it's far more easier to achieve the goal of Evergreen by forking SLE like CentOS did with Red Hat than go through all of this crap that leads no where... It's becoming far easier to work off project than within project.
a) You reply here competly out of context. Read what I've written before and see your reply. b) Crap? This is the normal process you have to pass if you're part of an Open Source project. Your writing about evergreen, SLE, CentOS, and RedHat has nothing to do with the generic mechanisms we discussed. Apples should kept separate from pears. Cheers, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-02-12 22:55, Lars Müller wrote:
A fresh list isn't created on request. There must the a proofen need.
The proof is that the list exists outside. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk84OY0ACgkQIvFNjefEBxrDDgCgvYmxmOEQ7kLQEjejgcOSrwlk lwQAn15Cr17gocqKpSPYNw7SAuVrnOxy =nk8G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Lars, I hope you don't mind an off-list reply, but since this works a bit like a personal explanation from my previous words on the list, it seemed nicer this way. 1) My position about the Foundation: I'm against. While it made a certain sense in the Novell days, even if it was a matter of identity, in current days in a SUSE Linux context, creating a Foundation doesn't bring any value to openSUSE or SUSE; I believe it will be bad for both parties, it defeats the purpose of 'union' in while I believe. 2) My position regarding openSUSE: Lots of cool people, lots of potential, poor governance, lack of identity. This is how I see openSUSE, other might have different views, this is mine. openSUSE should be one of the main flagships under the SUSE Linux umbrella, which turns 1) into a True. 3) My position regarding Evergreen: no one really know what it is, else there would be no real reason for the thread which originated this reply. Tumbleweed is the most visible 'brand' of openSUSE outside our circle. I would like to see Evergreen achieving the same, and hopefully fill the gap that there's demand: a 'personal server' capable release that could last for 3/5 years would be cool for a 'community thing'. Since I believe that there is demand for Evergreen, since it could have some usage for me... I think it's worth supporting it in the way that the people which actually commit to it want... if that's a mailing list... it's a cheap price :) 4) The mailing list issue: If more synergies around Evergreen depend only on a mailing list? Sure... let it be the 101th mailing list, I couldn't care less. About Samba mailing lists... if that helps developers who are actually working for it... why not? If they are against and want to supress them... sure, since they are putting the work, let them organize as they want... Same for evergreen or any other project. The "software police" thingie should be applied higher in the chain, not on the basic projects where people "cut stone" :) I do respect a lot (and value) people with different opinions, and because I believe there was maybe some misunderstanding on the list thread, I feel this email is somehow more explicit and un-complicated. Kindest, NM 2012/2/12 Lars Müller <lmuelle@suse.de>:
On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 06:58:36PM +0000, Nelson Marques wrote: [ 8< ]
This is no question of first and second class. More than 80 lists isn't good to a project. Check how many of these lists had close to no traffic in the last three months or half year, Then you might get the direction of my suggestion.
I do agree with you that 80 lists might be not so good for a project, but this lists should be analysed on a "per se" basis, and I find it also not good that a project that acts under the umbrella brand doesn't have a dedicated mailing list because there are already too much lists (in which many shouldn't even exist).
In other words, your stance bring more harm than good to Evergreen because others earlier might have taken the wrong decision regarding to lists. Furthermore... not all need to be signed in all lists, but the special requirements of Evergreen can easilly justify having it's own list... and not having it might reduce the hability that people have to re-structure and organize the project...
In other words, if you are not part of the solution, you are becoming a part of the problem.
Sorry, I'm not able to see how my suggestion to keep the openSUSE traffic as long as a particular topic doesn't harm on the main list causes potential trouble.
But this might be a language issue. Or simply a question of logic. To Wolfgang who's driving evergreen this all had been less an issue.
And to me this is neither. Cause either if a new list is created someone lese might pass what ever Samba version from the network:samba name space of the Open Build Servive to evergreen or even not.
Or check a project like Samba. How are we able to handle it with only two lists since so many years?
not my fight.
What are you trying to express with this sentence? That you don't care about the argument?
I've given an example how a huge project is able to work with two lists. openSUSE has already more than 80. Do you see the contrast? That was my goal. Independent if you use or don't use Samba. This is a generic argument.
And to my negative surprise I've seen we now have a dedicated opensuse-arm list too. This is anything else than good to the project I fear. Cause more and more lists cause more fragmentation of the communication.
Denying a list to a project that clearly can take advantage of it is neither good, despite if you like it or not.
I don't like the idea and argue against it. I'm not in the role to deny anything what's happening with openSUSE. That's what I even tried to express with my previous answer.
Sometimes it's quite usefull to read mails you reply to. ;) Or to ask back if something wasn't clear enough.
Please count the lists openSUSE already is offering at lists.openSUSE.org They had been more than 80 last time I counted them.
Between a project that wants to earn it's own lifestream and vitallity and a few defunct lists that are on that webpage, I'm not really sure if you are acting to protect or to harm openSUSE with such claims.
It is to protect and to focus. Look, I'm not going to subscribe to any additional openSUSE list. I'm already on to many.
Good point... So how are people who want to do things for Evergreen are going to focus? On a Factory mailing list? on a project mailing list?
Please show us your solutions on how to coordinate or run a project without a simple thing like a mailing list... that's something I bet most of us would be delighted to ear, instead of the traditional "I dont like this".
We have opensuse@opensuse.org as written in my initial reply. This existing list we can use for the evergreen purpose too. And as soon as evergreen causes to much noise comapred to all the other topics then it's time to requests a dedicated list. That's the generic way how mailing lists of projects are organized.
A fresh list isn't created on request. There must the a proofen need.
Well, even for this topic the basic mailing list rules apply. Why should there be any difference?
Thanks for showing us a bit more on how openSUSE is run by SUSE :)
My opinion has close to nothing to do with the opinion of SUSE. This is my personal view and in this particular case also written in my private time.
My personal stance is that it's far more easier to achieve the goal of Evergreen by forking SLE like CentOS did with Red Hat than go through all of this crap that leads no where... It's becoming far easier to work off project than within project.
a) You reply here competly out of context. Read what I've written before and see your reply.
b) Crap? This is the normal process you have to pass if you're part of an Open Source project. Your writing about evergreen, SLE, CentOS, and RedHat has nothing to do with the generic mechanisms we discussed.
Apples should kept separate from pears.
Cheers,
Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
-- Nelson Marques /* http://www.marques.so nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Feb 12, 2012 at 11:41:41PM +0000, Nelson Marques wrote:
I hope you don't mind an off-list reply, but since this works a bit like a personal explanation from my previous words on the list, it seemed nicer this way.
1) My position about the Foundation: I'm against. While it made a certain sense in the Novell days, even if it was a matter of identity, in current days in a SUSE Linux context, creating a Foundation doesn't bring any value to openSUSE or SUSE; I believe it will be bad for both parties, it defeats the purpose of 'union' in while I believe.
2) My position regarding openSUSE: Lots of cool people, lots of potential, poor governance, lack of identity. This is how I see openSUSE, other might have different views, this is mine. openSUSE should be one of the main flagships under the SUSE Linux umbrella, which turns 1) into a True.
1 and 2 had never been the topic as part of this thread. Why are you jumping and switching around? What's the goal? This had been a discussion about where the discussion about the openSUSE evergreen project should happen. Some suggested to use the existing list which is not hosted at lists.openSUSE.org, other suggested to create a fresh one at lists.openSUSE.org, while I stress to create a fresh one only if the need is proven. That's all. Nothing more got discussed. If you see the need to discuss other issues you see, please start a fresh thread.
3) My position regarding Evergreen: no one really know what it is, else there would be no real reason for the thread which originated this reply. Tumbleweed is the most visible 'brand' of openSUSE outside our circle.
Tumbleweed is a sometimes working and other times failing trial. Nothing more. I tried it and for me it failed. It's much better to focus on getting issues fixed for a released openSUSE version. Which got much, much easier with a more releaxed, better more reasonable update policy. File bug reports and confince the maintainer to work on an update. Then get it released and the majority will get it as they don't have to tweak with additional repositories! I have to stress, that the kernel isn't my pat. I'm happy if it boots and doesn't oops.
I would like to see Evergreen achieving the same, and hopefully fill the gap that there's demand: a 'personal server' capable release that could last for 3/5 years would be cool for a 'community thing'. Since I believe that there is demand for Evergreen, since it could have some usage for me... I think it's worth supporting it in the way that the people which actually commit to it want... if that's a mailing list... it's a cheap price :)
Mailing lists are anything else than cheap. And this is not about the cost of operation. It's about the effect of fragmentation of a community. Unfortunately you have given null arguments why there is a need for yet another list. Sorry, you're ignoring arguments and don't present your own. Again: A project isn't more important if it has more lists. The opposite is the case. More lists cause more fragmentation and distraction! And if there is a dedicated evergreen list already. Good, let it be where it is. But I vote strongly against yet another list at lists.openSUSE.org till it isn't proven that there is a need. Some statistics needed? Since mid Dec 2010 we have seen 650 postings to the list. These are approximately 46.42 postings per months. Or roughly 1.5 per day. 0 posting from me and surprise, surprise also zero from Nelson! Well, looks like both of us should better shut up. :) Do we need stats by people? Wolfgang Rosenauer 172 Greg Freemyer 135 Stefan Lijewski 77 Marcus Meissner 38 jdd 36 I'm stopping here as these already prenting more than 70% of the over all postings. Make a different count and check how many kernel developrs wrote to the list. From a rough check I believe even a dude working at a sawmill would still be able to count them with one hand. Check back on the opensuse-factory or opensuse@opensuse.org how many kernel people are (still) there. Do yopu still believe yet another list makes it more attarctive to contribute to openSUSE evergreen? Goog luck cowboy!¹
4) The mailing list issue: If more synergies around Evergreen depend only on a mailing list? Sure... let it be the 101th mailing list, I couldn't care less. About Samba mailing lists... if that helps developers who are actually working for it... why not? If they are against and want to supress them... sure, since they are putting the work, let them organize as they want... Same for evergreen or any other project. The "software police" thingie should be applied higher in the chain, not on the basic projects where people "cut stone" :)
Sorry, this is also my project. I'm using SUSE and contibute since more than a decade. Even a long time before I got employed. This is also my baby. And I don't like to see people directing it into an unproductive, useless, and even unattractive direction.
I do respect a lot (and value) people with different opinions, and because I believe there was maybe some misunderstanding on the list thread, I feel this email is somehow more explicit and un-complicated.
Well, misunderstandings are always very, very likely due to this kind of communication. Therefore you have to argue and to be as less vague as possible. Cheers, Lars ¹ thx Greg for this lovely phrase once again! -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1202140501100.12834@Telcontar.valinor> On Monday, 2012-02-13 at 22:50 +0100, Lars Müller wrote:
Unfortunately you have given null arguments why there is a need for yet another list. Sorry, you're ignoring arguments and don't present your own.
I see the contrary: null arguments why not needed, and ignoring arguments pro.
to the list. These are approximately 46.42 postings per months. Or roughly 1.5 per day.
Because it has little visibility. A mail list here would be more popular. People see a mail list outside and think that the project is not serious, that it is not an openSUSE project. And your oposition to it, with a suse address, proves the point. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk853K4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UEnwCglDnPl1GfzcNVKlnU3k4KwGE8 YvYAnRsQsX+SmVIHMT1HZRrHRQolagdE =/N/N -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 05:01:41AM +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Monday, 2012-02-13 at 22:50 +0100, Lars Müller wrote:
Unfortunately you have given null arguments why there is a need for yet another list. Sorry, you're ignoring arguments and don't present your own.
I see the contrary: null arguments why not needed, and ignoring arguments pro.
Please read my mail¹ again before you reply again. And try to follow the argumentation. There had been numbers of the usage. And with the same approach we're able to count the amount of traffic caused by evergreen on this list. This is a simple and proofen approach. Evergreen will get more attention on this list than by a dedicated fresh one.
to the list. These are approximately 46.42 postings per months. Or roughly 1.5 per day.
Because it has little visibility. A mail list here would be more popular. People see a mail list outside and think that the project is not serious, that it is not an openSUSE project.
Adding more lists doesn't help the project. See my previous mail¹. And try to follow the quite simple argumentation.
And your oposition to it, with a suse address, proves the point.
Which point? And as written before the domain part of the address I'm using doesn't matter at all. Arguments matter. Nothing else. And with my last mail I've given several why a new list is a bad, bad, very bad idea and doesn't help the openSUSE project nor the evergreen approach. Read the mail¹ _slowly_ again. Also check what's happening in the openSUSE arch area. We've seen this mail http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-amd64/2011-10/msg00001.html and I hope we soon will have only _one_ openSUSE-arch list. They demonstrated that they're willing to learn. Well for 1.5 mails per day - yes, that's the rate at the list Wolfgang started - we need a dedicated list instead of starting with an existing one and see what's going on. Strange minds. No, bad mind. Cause this doesn't promote the project. This is bad to the project due to the already before stressed fragmentation of the communication! I'm not sure what's driving you guys? Is it to harm the project? Is it to get your own toy? Is it to stress at the end 'I had been right! Yippi, yah, yeah!'? If you need this: Yes, you're all right, I'm wrong and stupid. But let us start with an existing list at lists.openSUSE.org. It's to the benefit of the project. And if you proof me wrong after 6 month I'm happy to bake waffles for all of you at the next openSUSE Conference. Another idea. Is this habit driven by the goal to be able to tell people they've written to the wrong list? This would really, really be crazy. This is all a bit to much contradicting for me. Isn't our all goal or shouldn't it be to push the project? But all you're doing is the opposite. You split the development in more and more small groups and communication is getting harder and harer. This makes openSUSE an unattractive place. And I know how the majority of develeopers react. They go away. Is that what you try to achieve? I'm going to get a next coffee to hopefully feel better again afterwards. Thanks, Lars ¹ http://lists.openSUSE.org/opensuse-project/2012-02/msg00131.html -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
Hi, that's not really an answer to Lars' mail but just an overall opinion. Please, there is no need to fight about the mailinglist question. I understand both views and we will come up with a working solution somehow. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 18:00:59 +0100 Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@rosenauer.org> wrote:
Please, there is no need to fight about the mailinglist question. I understand both views and we will come up with a working solution somehow.
It seems that just about everybody overlooked another email where I mentioned opensuse-maintenance@opensuse.org http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-maintenance/ It will be excellent choice for Evergreen. It is low traffic list unlike opensuse@opensuse.org . It is already dedicated as communication about openSUSE release maintenance, so adding Evergreen will be consolidation of maintenance related communication to the single mail list. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2012-02-13 at 22:50 +0100, Lars Müller wrote:
Unfortunately you have given null arguments why there is a need for yet another list. Sorry, you're ignoring arguments and don't present your own.
Reasons: - A mail list inside the project has more status that a mail list outside. - Dividing different subjects in different mail lists helps concentrate common interests and avoid distractions, and reduces traffic at the users side. - Attempts to use subclassing like [evergreen] have never worked here well, to my knowledge. Newcomers do not know the system, there is no discipline even in old users to respect the method. - I fail to see the expense. The traffic to the server and its resources are roughly the same with both systems. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk854CsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UskwCfdxJlFE2LfUi6MvyCmzzh2bE1 unkAoIipZjy5EJa11ji1N0w5qwALizlT =o4H3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
My personal stance is that it's far more easier to achieve the goal of Evergreen by forking SLE like CentOS did with Red Hat than go through all of this crap that leads no where... It's becoming far easier to work off project than within project. If evergreen would use SLES as base, it wouldn't be "openSUSE", and:
On 12.02.2012 19:58, Nelson Marques wrote: there always had been discussions about a free and free fork of SLES, but as long as *nobody* steps up and form a team of people who are interested in it, *nothing* will happen. thanks, --kdl -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 12/02/2012 17:43, Nelson Marques a écrit :
According to that view, there would be no grounds for opensuse-foundation to be created,
bad example :-) I fear that with Pascal in the board and what he expressed, Foundation is not to be seen anytime soon (may be with really good reasons) we could have spared a list creation :-( please do not keep this subject in on this thread :-((())) but the fact is an evergreen list exists, why not keep is... jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
2012/2/12 jdd <jdd@dodin.org>:
Le 12/02/2012 17:43, Nelson Marques a écrit :
According to that view, there would be no grounds for opensuse-foundation to be created,
bad example :-)
I fear that with Pascal in the board and what he expressed, Foundation is not to be seen anytime soon (may be with really good reasons) we could have spared a list creation :-(
The Foundation in the current days considering that Novell is a completly separate unit from SUSE makes absolutly no sense. Being openSUSE an umbrella of SUSE it makes no sense to remove it... but what would I know, I'm just the troll... but one with commits.
please do not keep this subject in on this thread :-((()))
but the fact is an evergreen list exists, why not keep is...
jdd
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques /* http://www.marques.so nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-02-12 17:18, Lars Müller wrote:
No. As said before no further new lists without the proofen need. And need is proofen by traffic. And not by the loudness of the requests.
You can see the traffic. There is a list (external) and it has merit.
Please count the lists openSUSE already is offering at lists.openSUSE.org They had been more than 80 last time I counted them.
So, remove existing lists with no traffic! Although I fail to see that the resource consumption of a list with no or almost no traffic can be so problematic.
Why not using something short and easy as EG as prefix?
You know it would not work. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk84EkkACgkQIvFNjefEBxqtLwCgxR0zDkRG6hoo4dL3/9xJCDJB ohQAn0MBX62mixZXKL0Z1GPqaO9jVC1o =yWYX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 20:26:01 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
So, remove existing lists with no traffic! Although I fail to see that the resource consumption of a list with no or almost no traffic can be so
Problem is not resource consumption, problem is splitting communication between users in so little parts that even for related stuff one has to subscribe to multiple lists. You know that opensuse-wiki was merged recently into opensuse-web to make one list for all web related tasks. Removing is also not an option as archives have web links and removing them will make a problem for anyone that bookmarked some of them, which is the same problem as with just any removal of links on the web. Remember transition to the new wiki, or forums shuffling front page :) -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-02-13 04:52, Rajko M. wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 20:26:01 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
So, remove existing lists with no traffic! Although I fail to see that the resource consumption of a list with no or almost no traffic can be so
Problem is not resource consumption, problem is splitting communication between users in so little parts that even for related stuff one has to subscribe to multiple lists. You know that opensuse-wiki was merged recently into opensuse-web to make one list for all web related tasks.
I don't see that as a problem, people interested in one thing many not be interested in other things.
Removing is also not an option as archives have web links and removing them will make a problem for anyone that bookmarked some of them, which is the same problem as with just any removal of links on the web. Remember transition to the new wiki, or forums shuffling front page :)
Removing a mail list doesn't have to imply removing its archive. You just mark that list in the web as joined to another, and leave the archive there. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk846qkACgkQIvFNjefEBxoOQACgqlysGVjzwtBY8jMXY8NA8D5S IO0An2CuJaWfZci7q9LMe2zthYNcOJ72 =Ik56 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 17:18:45 +0100 Lars Müller <lmuelle@suse.de> wrote:
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 07:02:31PM -0600, Rajko M. wrote: ... No. As said before no further new lists without the prooven need.
I know all that, ditto there are proposed two solutions evergreen@opensuse.org and opensuse@opensuse.org Former is anyway generic list so it can be used by any project that has no its own. Permanent, if traffic grows to average of some 20 emails per day and keeps that for a few months. We can actually join many other lists, like we did merging opensuse-wiki to opensuse-web, but that is another topic.
tag should be just [Evergreen], not EG ...
Why not using something short and easy as EG as prefix?
Please alwas keep KISS in mind. Keep It Simple Stupid. ;)
That is exactly why Evergreen is better then EG :) You are software developer, used to handle character symbols every day. To be successful you must have certain brain functions that support such skills and training to make better use of them. Those without, even perfectly able to handle large amount information like images, sounds, tactile, motion, object location etc, are not necessarily native talents for character symbol manipulation. In other words, what is easy for you and other guys that work with you, it is not for everyone. As you can't see the problem, you really can't help in decision. ------------------------ Footnote --------------------------------- EG is similar to UX, plus it is not Ever Green, but Evergreen. UX stands for "User Experience" and that is modern term for "usability". Everyone, except insiders, has to perform two translations, UX to user experience and then to usability. That appears more like road bump then usability improvement :) And, even a "road bump" is something that may force international readers to look for Google, which makes it far from KISS :) -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 21:34:30 -0600 "Rajko M." <rmatov101@charter.net> wrote:
I know all that, ditto there are proposed two solutions evergreen@opensuse.org and opensuse@opensuse.org
Maybe one will suffice in a short and long term: opensuse-maintenance@opensuse.org http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-maintenance/ It is exactly what Evergreen needs :) ----------------------------------------------------------------- And yes, me and everyone else could have a look at the collection on http://lists.opensuse.org before running yet another 20 messages. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 W dniu 13.02.2012 05:03, Rajko M. pisze:
Maybe one will suffice in a short and long term: opensuse-maintenance@opensuse.org http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-maintenance/
It is exactly what Evergreen needs :)
Hmmm, I thought opensuse-maintenance is something like opensuse-updates, more automatic and informal than to share problems and solutions, and it seems I was wrong. That's why the lists should be better described. So it can be good candidate, but the maintenance team should speak up. Stefan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAk84s70ACgkQwdp0CbGQFuKIVQD9HxwJ+28iT2BQ6Wip6GsrEVs4 hq+p0MkIm0p+qDXJcvkA/0tX7w52VRpk53GKmJ4k91OQ8IVa9KP3Qt448kuFDkJe =sHXG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
* Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@rosenauer.org> [02-10-12 03:28]:
within the Evergreen project http://en.opensuse.org/Evergreen we are planning to designate openSUSE 11.4 as the next Evergreen supported release. There are several reasons why 11.4 is a good candidate in our opinion and it even was my proposal in the beginning of Evergreen.
Still we would like to hear your opinions and we actually are also looking for contributors to make the next Evergreen a success. The previous Evergreen releases 11.1 and 11.2 still had a "kind of experimental" flag and not many people working on it.
Happily using evergreen on 11.2 server, box was replaced. Your efforts are much appreciated. I have experienced little to no problems since changeing to evergreen repos. tks
I've created a simple poll here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dGpHRW5XVjJSbGpoakk5UUx...
voted -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/02/12 08:27, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
within the Evergreen project http://en.opensuse.org/Evergreen we are planning to designate openSUSE 11.4 as the next Evergreen supported release. There are several reasons why 11.4 is a good candidate in our opinion and it even was my proposal in the beginning of Evergreen.
Still we would like to hear your opinions and we actually are also looking for contributors to make the next Evergreen a success.
I mentioned this before: From my perspective, for Evergreen to make sense, it must be known at initial release time whether the release is going to be supported for an extended period or not. Deciding what's becoming an Evergreen release shortly before a release goes out of normal support is no good. I, for instance, was on 11.3 when it was decided that 11.2 is going to be an Evergreen version. This decision simply didn't make any sense to me. I certainly didn't want to downgrade and risk breaking my programming environment at that point. In the future, I think it needs to be decided up front which version is going to be evergreen'ed. Regards, Thomas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2012-02-10 at 23:00 -0000, Thomas Hertweck wrote:
I mentioned this before: From my perspective, for Evergreen to make sense, it must be known at initial release time whether the release is going to be supported for an extended period or not.
That's a very good point. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk818tQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WovQCghop/QMvsq8IJ4pm3WYOmeUsM 4dEAoJMnJxOmUQeq49I0szQhOUDfgRM1 =tY+S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am 11.02.2012 05:47, schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On Friday, 2012-02-10 at 23:00 -0000, Thomas Hertweck wrote:
I mentioned this before: From my perspective, for Evergreen to make sense, it must be known at initial release time whether the release is going to be supported for an extended period or not.
That's a very good point.
It is (in a perfect world). In our current state I still don't think it makes sense to do it that way because it means that the earliest next Evergreen release would be 12.2 and I'm scared to commit to something I don't even know yet. Loosing that rule a bit I could imagine it would be enough to announce it before the following openSUSE is released. So it would have been nice if we would have known it before 12.1 got released. This would be something I can agree with but it's too late now unfortunately. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-02-11 09:23, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 11.02.2012 05:47, schrieb Carlos E. R.:
That's a very good point.
It is (in a perfect world). In our current state I still don't think it makes sense to do it that way because it means that the earliest next Evergreen release would be 12.2 and I'm scared to commit to something I don't even know yet.
I think that a practical decision point could be a month or two after the initial release, when it can be seen that it is a good one or a problematic one to skip. Users that are careful about which version to install usually defer to that point (or later), so that if they also know which version is going to have an extended maintenance, the decision is easier. For both sides :-) I know it can not be decided in advance :-) What is bad is deciding some months before demise, because LTS users did not decide at release to install it, and thus loose a year of maintenance.
Loosing that rule a bit I could imagine it would be enough to announce it before the following openSUSE is released. So it would have been nice if we would have known it before 12.1 got released. This would be something I can agree with but it's too late now unfortunately.
12.1 is not a good one to choose, I think. Systemd is still green, and gnome... well, gnome its not a good stable point. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk82Z8kACgkQIvFNjefEBxrElACfQHaf8ALsdEg5MQRRYOw1Ohgu G+8An36t8g//Jiv4PKabZSiR44lI821y =WP3t -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
* Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> [02-11-12 08:07]:
12.1 is not a good one to choose, I think. Systemd is still green, and gnome... well, gnome its not a good stable point.
The systemd point is very valid but gnome/kde/lxde/icewm/..., one will always be ??_unstable_??. IE: if you use gnome as a go/no-go standard, you must give the same consideration to..... -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-02-11 16:16, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
The systemd point is very valid but gnome/kde/lxde/icewm/..., one will always be ??_unstable_??. IE: if you use gnome as a go/no-go standard, you must give the same consideration to.....
And a release with kde 4.0 would be as unsuitable. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk82iLoACgkQIvFNjefEBxqPEACfSCdn/O/zP+GaZTtXk+SzIRZg eJkAnRRuKvC///k8jv+KbXSA58hAezFJ =gzLH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
"Carlos E. R." <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-02-11 09:23, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 11.02.2012 05:47, schrieb Carlos E. R.:
That's a very good point.
It is (in a perfect world). In our current state I still don't think it makes sense to do it that way because it means that the earliest next Evergreen release would be 12.2 and I'm scared to commit to something I don't even know yet.
I think that a practical decision point could be a month or two after the initial release, when it can be seen that it is a good one or a problematic one to skip.
Users that are careful about which version to install usually defer to that point (or later), so that if they also know which version is going to have an extended maintenance, the decision is easier. For both sides :-)
I know it can not be decided in advance :-)
You think so? Why Not choose 12.2 for LTS and ship only stable Software and minor changes? 12.1 got systemd and GNOME 3, now a polished, conservative release would Fit as llong Term supported. Thanks, --kdl -- Send from my smartphone via K9 Mail -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
11.4 has GNOME2 (and it's ultra-popular interface), which is far more welcome for many users than the features that a few praise :) That's the whole point on a LTS. 2012/2/11 Kim Leyendecker <leyendecker@opensuse.org>:
"Carlos E. R." <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-02-11 09:23, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 11.02.2012 05:47, schrieb Carlos E. R.:
That's a very good point.
It is (in a perfect world). In our current state I still don't think it makes sense to do it that way because it means that the earliest next Evergreen release would be 12.2 and I'm scared to commit to something I don't even know yet.
I think that a practical decision point could be a month or two after the initial release, when it can be seen that it is a good one or a problematic one to skip.
Users that are careful about which version to install usually defer to that point (or later), so that if they also know which version is going to have an extended maintenance, the decision is easier. For both sides :-)
I know it can not be decided in advance :-)
You think so? Why Not choose 12.2 for LTS and ship only stable Software and minor changes? 12.1 got systemd and GNOME 3, now a polished, conservative release would Fit as llong Term supported.
Thanks, --kdl
-- Send from my smartphone via K9 Mail -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-- Nelson Marques /* http://www.marques.so nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2012-02-11 at 21:56 +0100, Kim Leyendecker wrote:
"Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
I know it can not be decided in advance :-)
You think so? Why Not choose 12.2 for LTS and ship only stable Software and minor changes? 12.1 got systemd and GNOME 3, now a polished, conservative release would Fit as llong Term supported.
No, the team doing the dev and packaging have different goals than a long time support. They don't think stability first, but features first. It is impossible in advance to know if 12.2 will be stable enough to get converted into an LTS. Probably better than 12.1, but it is early to know. At worst, if no candidate can be found in time, then probably the evergreen users could vote which of the current releases is a better candidate, ie, the version they are actually using more on their machines. Or the team doing the maintenance choose which one is easier to maintain. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk83un4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Uf4ACeJXeGIhUwKZf8tB+aSnvc40g5 e18An2nUXPpIiTHaPCnLG6jXD4NVY/SW =G+hX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, Am 10.02.2012 09:27, schrieb Wolfgang Rosenauer:
I've created a simple poll here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dGpHRW5XVjJSbGpoakk5UUx...
to keep opensuse-project in the loop. These are the results from the poll: We had 51 votes in total Which version should be the next Evergreen release: openSUSE 11.4: 42 openSUSE 12.1: 8 any later: 1 Contributors: There were 12 people which would like to contribute to 11.4 and 3 people for 12.1. Lifetime: In both version the average lifetime (including the official 18 months provided by SUSE) was 46 months (3years+10months). Exactly the same average lifetime was proposed by people who offer to contribute. Details: 2 years and less 4 votes 3 years 17 votes 4 years 10 votes 5 years 14 votes openSUSE 11.4 lifetime as supported from SUSE ends September, 15th 2012 So there is still time to ramp up for its further support. This is not an official announcement yet about Evergreen 11.4 as we (the contributors) still have to officially decide ;-) but it looks like a formal step only. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
participants (12)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Greg Freemyer -
jdd -
Kim Leyendecker -
Lars Müller -
Nelson Marques -
Patrick Shanahan -
Rajko M. -
Stefan Lijewski -
Thomas Hertweck -
Vincent Untz -
Wolfgang Rosenauer