I got my credential email and went to the ballot. While I understand that voting is not open yet, is the ballot text finalized and if so has the openSUSE Board reviewed and approved that it positions the decision being made in a clear and fully transparent way? Without knowing any further background, the way the current ballot information is presented, it is biased towards a "Yes" answer. Basically stating that we need to make a decision to change the name or not because keeping the name might be challenging. To be interpreted as "Should we make things easier and change the name?" Well sure! If it makes things easier! -Scott On Wed, 2019-10-09 at 23:01 +0800, Ish Sookun wrote:

It's me again fellow openSUSE Members.

You must have received your vote link and credential by now but voting will open automatically at UTC midnight only.

I apologize for this confusion. I will have limited access to the internet in the next few hours and therefore to be on the safe side I preferred sending you your credentials already.

Regards,

Ish Sookun

On 10/9/19 10:12 PM, Ish Sookun wrote:

...

Dear openSUSE Members,

There have been long discussions on the openSUSE Project mailing list about the pros and cons of a the project name change. The discussions contain a lot of arguments in favor or against such a change.

The community appears divided over this matter and under such circumstances it is not easy to draw consensus by just looking at the mailing list discussions. The board asked for a project name change vote to obtain a clearer picture of the community's decision.

The vote will open on 10 October 2019 and end on 31 October 2019. Members will receive their vote link and credential in an email sent to their openSUSE email alias. Three weeks ago an email [1] was sent to the project mailing list to inform members of this vote and thus giving everyone enough time to check whether their openSUSE email alias is redirecting emails properly. A second reminder [2] was sent about a week ago.

If you haven't had time to update your member email alias, you can still do so by sending an email to admin@opensuse.org. Please reach out to the Election Officials through election-officials@opensuse.org if you are having any trouble receiving your vote link.

The vote page asks whether we change the project name and the answer option is either "yes" or "no". The result of the vote will be announced on 1 November 2019.

Regards,

Ish Sookun

(from the Election Committee)

[1] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2019-09/msg00005.html [2] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2019-09/msg00062.html

On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 23:01:03 +0800, Ish Sookun wrote:

You must have received your vote link and credential by now but voting will open automatically at UTC midnight only.

I haven't, but my forwarder is working. I tested it with the first notification that this would be used for sending this notification out. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 16:30:50 +0400, Ish Sookun wrote:

Hi Jim,

On 10/11/19 11:43 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

I haven't, but my forwarder is working. I tested it with the first notification that this would be used for sending this notification out.

Let me check this and get back to you off-list.

Regards,

Ish Sookun

I have just tested it yet again to make sure it's working, and it is. But still no ballot e-mail, and I've confirmed that it's not in my spam folder. Nor did I receive any message you sent off-list since Saturday directly to me, just in case you did (I figure it's been nearly 4 days since you said you'd contact me off-list). Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Jim, Reading this now. So, the email thing sorted now? Could you send me the details I requested off-list. I'll look into what's wrong. Regards, Ish Sookun On 10/16/19 8:23 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:

Nevermind, Ish. Gmail was stupid about matching a string (in what world does "[opensuse-project]" match "openSUSE Project"? Google's world.) and promptly moved it to a label and marked it as read because of the filters I have set up to file the project ML messages under a label.

Stupid Google.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Stefan, On 10/9/19 11:01 PM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

I am having trouble.

I will contact you off-list to sort out this. Regards, Ish Sookun -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hello Coolo, Am Donnerstag, 10. Oktober 2019, 13:40:13 CEST schrieb Stephan Kulow:

On 10/10/19 12:55 PM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

On 09/10/2019 16.12, Ish Sookun wrote:

...

The board asked for a project name change vote to obtain a clearer picture of the community's decision.

[...]

The formulation of the vote is so short and terse that it's useless IMHO.

Is there a document explaining what is behind the vote and what will happen with it?

I followed the discussion here, so have my preference - and would have expected that based on the discussions the statement would be much longer or include a link :(

Of course there is not. The board made it clear it expects the Brexit outcome. The more vague the vote is, the more freedom you create to discuss the outcome.

my first impulse was to say 'stop bullshitting', but this is of course a phrase that is not appropriate for a public mailing list. In fact there is no such expectation or desire, or has ever been. We have discussed quite heavily the last days to find a better wording. Some hours before the ballot was about to start we were done, but learned that, once the ballot is on the road, there is no chance to finetune the choices or the wording. Assuming the approval of my board colleagues for publishing, here is what the wording should have been: ( ) I am in favor of keeping the name "openSUSE" for our project and would like to see the Board and SUSE to work together to establish whatever is necessary (in terms of trademarks and other agreements) to allow for that. ( ) I am in favor of changing the name of our project from "openSUSE" and replacing uses of the "openSUSE" name with a new name. I would like to see the Board and SUSE to work together towards that goal. (Next steps will include determining concrete proposals and likely a follow-up vote on the actual choice.) Hope that makes things clearer Axel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/11/19 3:42 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am 10.10.19 um 16:59 schrieb Axel Braun:

...

...

Of course there is not. The board made it clear it expects the Brexit outcome. The more vague the vote is, the more freedom you create to discuss the outcome.

my first impulse was to say 'stop bullshitting', but this is of course a phrase that is not appropriate for a public mailing list.

In fact there is no such expectation or desire, or has ever been. Sorry Axel, I'm just very frustrated by this IMO obvious waste of time. For all the reasons mentioned here. We're basically in a loose-loose situation and having a vote won't change a thing.

Well i'll disagree here, on one hand a clear "No Change" vote will basically end the discussion and will be something we can point to for years to come if someone was to choose to bring up the issue again. At the same time a clear "Change" vote will lead to the development of a plan to slowly transition away from the "openSUSE" name, likely first starting by not using "openSUSE" in the foundation name then coming up with a timeframe to rebrand other parts of the project. One could make a reasonable case that the best time to move away from the openSUSE name in the Distro's maybe around the next major version of Leap which is still some years away. But the critical part to this discussion around foundation is that if the community decides to move away from the openSUSE name even if we take 5 years to implement it the board is happy not to involve the openSUSE trademark in foundation discussions because we are reasonably satisfied that in the short to medium term SUSE will continue to allow us freedom to use the trademark as needed, our concern has always been the longer term should SUSE change owner then significantly change management and head in a different direction. Really the only way we will end up in a worse position with no clear direction is if we end up at around a 50-50 decision which would signal that the community is genuinely really divided on the issue. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 9:00 AM, Stephan Kulow <coolo@suse.de> wrote:

Am 11.10.19 um 02:25 schrieb Simon Lees:

...

Well i'll disagree here, on one hand a clear "No Change" vote will basically end the discussion and will be something we can point to for years to come if someone was to choose to bring up the issue again. At the same time a clear "Change" vote will lead to the development of a plan to slowly

Oh boy. I assume down under the Brexit story isn't told as often as here, but this is *exactly* the reasons given to have a vote in the UK. And guess what? It ended 51.9:48.1 - and the resulting chaos dominates european news to the day.

In case of a close call like that, we will need to perform a name vote, select a name that most people like and perform the vote again, openSUSE vs the chosen name. It's only fair to present people with concrete options if we know how dividing the vote got in the first place. LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Dne pátek 11. října 2019 9:18:56 CEST, Michal Kubecek napsal(a):

On Friday, 11 October 2019 9:10 Stasiek Michalski wrote:

...

On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 9:00 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Am 11.10.19 um 02:25 schrieb Simon Lees:

...

Well i'll disagree here, on one hand a clear "No Change" vote will basically end the discussion and will be something we can point to for years to come if someone was to choose to bring up the issue again. At the same time a clear "Change" vote will lead to the development of a plan to slowly

Oh boy. I assume down under the Brexit story isn't told as often as here, but this is *exactly*> > the reasons given to have a vote in the UK. And guess what? It ended 51.9:48.1 - and the resulting chaos dominates european news to the day.

In case of a close call like that, we will need to perform a name vote, select a name that most people like and perform the vote again, openSUSE vs the chosen name. It's only fair to present people with concrete options if we know how dividing the vote got in the first place.

Good thing disappointed openSUSE users are unlikely to fill squares with "Rename means rename!" posters. :-)

So let's have enough votes against name change and this unnecessary disturbing buzz will be over forever. ;-) -- Vojtěch Zeisek Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/ https://trapa.cz/

On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 1:53 PM, Robert Schweikert <rjschwei@suse.com> wrote:

On 10/11/19 3:10 AM, Stasiek Michalski wrote:

...

On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 9:00 AM, Stephan Kulow <coolo@suse.de> wrote:

...

Am 11.10.19 um 02:25 schrieb Simon Lees:

...

Well i'll disagree here, on one hand a clear "No Change" vote will basically end the discussion and will be something we can point to for years to come if someone was to choose to bring up the issue again. At the same time a clear "Change" vote will lead to the development of a plan to slowly

Oh boy. I assume down under the Brexit story isn't told as often as here, but this is *exactly* the reasons given to have a vote in the UK. And guess what? It ended 51.9:48.1 - and the resulting chaos dominates european news to the day.

In case of a close call like that, we will need to perform a name vote,

I do not see this need at all. I am not certain how one questionable vote followed by another is going to resolve the situation.

Resolve, no, but it is easier to make choices when you know for what you are voting more precisely. If I had a solution to any more of the problems we are having here, I would share it with you ;) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/10/2019 16.46, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Thu 2019-10-10, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

The formulation of the vote is so short and terse that it's useless IMHO.

When the vote was kicked off (a bit early) I had just got broad agreement on the board for the following alternate version in an attempt to add some clarity:

( ) I am in favor of keeping the name "openSUSE" for our project and would like to see the Board and SUSE to work together to establish whatever is necessary (in terms of trademarks and other agreements) to allow for that.

( ) I am in favor of changing the name of our project from "openSUSE" and replacing uses of the "openSUSE" name with a new name. I would like to see the Board and SUSE to work together towards that goal. (Next steps will include determining concrete proposals and likely a follow-up vote on the actual choice.)

(Be careful and don't mentally overlay this on the actual ballot; the order is reverse.)

Good description and far better than the current poll! Should we restart the poll? Or write a blog post on news.o. explaining that Yes means b) and no means a)? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@suse.com Twitter: jaegerandi SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D 90409 Nürnberg GF: Felix Imendörffer; HRB 247165 (AG München) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

On 10/10/2019 23.14, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

Op donderdag 10 oktober 2019 17:02:01 CEST schreef Andreas Jaeger:

...

On 10/10/2019 16.46, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

...

On Thu 2019-10-10, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

The formulation of the vote is so short and terse that it's useless IMHO.

When the vote was kicked off (a bit early) I had just got broad agreement on the board for the following alternate version in an attempt to add some clarity:

( ) I am in favor of keeping the name "openSUSE" for our project and would like to see the Board and SUSE to work together to establish whatever is necessary (in terms of trademarks and other agreements) to allow for that.

( ) I am in favor of changing the name of our project from "openSUSE" and replacing uses of the "openSUSE" name with a new name. I would like to see the Board and SUSE to work together towards that goal. (Next steps will include determining concrete proposals and likely a follow-up vote on the actual choice.)

(Be careful and don't mentally overlay this on the actual ballot; the order is reverse.)

Good description and far better than the current poll! Should we restart the poll? Or write a blog post on news.o. explaining that Yes means b) and no means a)?

Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@suse.com Twitter: jaegerandi SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D 90409 Nürnberg GF: Felix Imendörffer; HRB 247165 (AG München) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Andreas, do you have access there? If so, please do post this out there.

This needs to come from board or election officials - together with some background if possible. I don't know whether I still have access to news.o.o but the board should have ;) Andreas

@All, Please be aware that this could have been a better example of how-to-do-stuff with your input. Do not blame the things that went wrong on those who did the job. They simply missed your input.

-- Andreas Jaeger aj@suse.com Twitter: jaegerandi SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D 90409 Nürnberg GF: Felix Imendörffer; HRB 247165 (AG München) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2019-10-11 at 21:52 +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On 10/10/2019 17.02, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

[...] Good description and far better than the current poll! Should we restart the poll?

thinking a bit more: I strongly suggest to stop the vote, it's useless. not everybody will read the description you gave above or even a blog post.

If I look at campaigns and petitions in Germany, I've never seen such short description without any explanation ;(

So, my proposal: * Write up a detailed blog post explaining why we vote and what are the options * Restart the vote and use the description for the vote and give a link to the blog post * When you restart, consider adding an option: Abstain. Several folks asked for that...

Yes, please!

With the current questions and limited information, everybody can read into the poll what they want and I doubt that the board will be able to get the backing they ask for,

Indeed - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHYEARECADYWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXaDgMRgcY2FybG9zLmUu ckBvcGVuc3VzZS5vcmcACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U8sACfWa6qiZ8G/ym44MSFnyiGCdQr JqYAn3xOIjcM2zUAg59zNM9YpWWQ0iJx =wGWR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 2019-10-10T14:46:52, Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> wrote: So a day or two into the vote, we all agree the vote should have been phrased better. And the consequences of the vote not being clear enough. Perhaps this is the time to abort and restart? And as always, this only reaches the people who are here. Not the many users that will be affected and confused if this proceeds. (Or maybe it won't, since the "Yes" side has no clear roadmap and timeline. But we'll save 350 million quid a week I'm sure.) -- SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Mary Higgins, Sri Rasiah, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) "Architects should open possibilities and not determine everything." (Ueli Zbinden) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Lars, On 10/11/19 5:48 PM, Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:

So a day or two into the vote, we all agree the vote should have been phrased better. And the consequences of the vote not being clear enough.

Perhaps this is the time to abort and restart?

You still have till 31 October 2019 to change your vote if you wish that. I mentioned in my last few emails that only the last vote counts. Does re-starting the vote solve anything? I'll be glad if anyone comes up with a clear & concise summary of the lengthy discussions around the project name change and I'll see with the board that it gets published. Let's not forget that openSUSE is a community of volunteers. Anyone not liking something is free to send an improvement. It only makes openSUSE better. :) Regards, Ish Sookun -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 14:46:52 +0000, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

( ) I am in favor of keeping the name "openSUSE" for our project and would like to see the Board and SUSE to work together to establish whatever is necessary (in terms of trademarks and other agreements) to allow for that.

( ) I am in favor of changing the name of our project from "openSUSE" and replacing uses of the "openSUSE" name with a new name. I would like to see the Board and SUSE to work together towards that goal. (Next steps will include determining concrete proposals and likely a follow-up vote on the actual choice.)

It seems to me this proposal is a step in the right direction, but still not on-point with what we should be looking to vote on. Here's the problem I see with this. If I vote that I think we should change the name, and that option wins, then proposals for alternate names and processes are put together, and we vote on that (maybe?). So if I think the name should change, then a second vote is held for what the name should become, and I vote in that for something that loses, now I feel like "well, maybe we shouldn't have changed the name at all rather than pick this name". It shouldn't be a choice between "keep things they way they are" and "change things" followed by a vote for "here's how we'll change things" *if and only if* the community votes to change things. Give us a clear choice between "keep things as they are" or a solid proposal for what we should change *to*, not something nebulous that may or may not be a better choice when we come to a second vote. And give us an explicit "abstain" option. L A Walsh is correct - there is a difference between not voting due to apathy and not voting because we don't think the choices presented are good choices. The reason for abstaining *matters*, and if one were to decide to abstain because the choices aren't complete or well-defined enough to make an informed decision, that's different than "I was on holiday and didn't realize there was a vote until I got back and it was too late" or "I didn't get the e-mail because even though it was sent to a working opensuse.org mail alias, it didn't get delivered". (I'd also add that regardless of what choice was made, I would expect the project and SUSE to work together to implement the decision - if there's a possibility of that not happening, that needs to be sorted out first before any vote is held by the community). -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hi, I finally became a member (not only but also) to participate in this vote of my beloved opensuse. I am very happy that this community participation is actually taking place! Cheers, Bernd Am Fr., 11. Okt. 2019 um 22:10 Uhr schrieb Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org>:

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On Friday, 2019-10-11 at 19:59 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

...

And give us an explicit "abstain" option. L A Walsh is correct - there is a difference between not voting due to apathy and not voting because we don't think the choices presented are good choices. The reason for abstaining *matters*, and if one were to decide to abstain because the choices aren't complete or well-defined enough to make an informed decision, that's different than "I was on holiday and didn't realize there was a vote until I got back and it was too late" or "I didn't get the e-mail because even though it was sent to a working opensuse.org mail alias, it didn't get delivered".

Or, in my case (I proposed the abstain or blank vote some time ago), because I still do not know what to choose, I'm so confused. So I let others that have a clearer mind to decide. I certainly do care about the issue, but as it is I'm forced to not vote, which will be counted the same as laziness! :-/

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

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-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hi jdd, On 10/12/19 10:39 AM, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

abstain is just that: no voting. Other choice is "blank vote".

Thanks for putting this. Regards, Ish Sookun -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/14/19 8:36 PM, Scott Bahling wrote:

On Sat, 2019-10-12 at 08:39 +0200, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

...

Le 11/10/2019 à 21:59, Jim Henderson a écrit :

...

Give us a clear choice between "keep things as they are" or a solid proposal for what we should change *to*, not something nebulous that may or may not be a better choice when we come to a second vote.

I proposed that from the beginning and it was rejected.

...

And give us an explicit "abstain" option. L A Walsh is correct - there is a difference between not voting due to apathy and not voting because we don't think the choices presented are good choices.

abstain is just that: no voting. Other choice is "blank vote".

and don't you think that people interested on the subject already read this thread? and have had much enough explanations?

I have read this particular thread, but have not had time to read all of the thread from the June "Project name and logo discussion" or other threads on the topic of project name and foundation which perhaps has a lot of background that I currently miss. Is there a consolidation of proposals and propositions documented somewhere where we can educate ourselves on the topic and where we can all point to as the current facts?

I posted a summary at the start of this thread that should cover most of the major issues https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2019-09/msg00072.html Cheers -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue 2019-10-15, Adam Spiers wrote:

A web page (e.g. wiki) is *really* needed here.

The board and election officials are working on this as we speak. The link will be shared directly with all members / everyone entitled to vote.

(P.S. Sorry for asking for things without offering to help but I really don't have time right now.)

That's totally fine. One has to have the right to raise issues without being able (for whatever reason, capacity being one) to address them themselves. Gerald -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 21:43:05 +0000, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Tue 2019-10-15, Adam Spiers wrote:

...

A web page (e.g. wiki) is *really* needed here.

The board and election officials are working on this as we speak.

The link will be shared directly with all members / everyone entitled to vote.

Assuming we get the message at all. This information should have been made available before the voting started. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 08:24:54 +1030, Simon Lees wrote:

Well it was made available in the second post of the start of vote thread, but that then received a lot of reply's hence its reasonable to expect some missed it and hence we are adding a wiki for it.

That's good, but it still seems to me that the vote will not be accurate with the changes in the ballot and the information being consolidated into a single place. In a local election, we get a voter information book in advance of the election itself. They don't send it out once voting has started or once ballots have been sent out (our voting here is by mail). But I'm tired of arguing about that. Do whatever you guys want. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 08:39:03 +0200, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 11/10/2019 à 21:59, Jim Henderson a écrit :

...

Give us a clear choice between "keep things as they are" or a solid proposal for what we should change *to*, not something nebulous that may or may not be a better choice when we come to a second vote.

I proposed that from the beginning and it was rejected.

Well, I don't think it should have been rejected.

...

And give us an explicit "abstain" option. L A Walsh is correct - there is a difference between not voting due to apathy and not voting because we don't think the choices presented are good choices.

abstain is just that: no voting. Other choice is "blank vote".

The reason for not voting is important to capture, IMO. That's why an abstention option is important.

and don't you think that people interested on the subject already read this thread? and have had much enough explanations?

I think that the entire discussion has been confusing to follow, with lots of different opinions about what we should do, and that the discussion didn't lead to a clear choice in this vote beyond "change it" or "don't change it". There isn't enough detail on the "change it" option beyond "but how is something we'll figure out later". That's not a good choice. My opinion is that the reasons for making a change make sense, but unless and until I have confidence that there's a solid plan for making a change, creating more chaos is a bad idea. So my inclination would be to vote "abstain" (or "present", or whatever) until more information about how a change would be implemented were made available. But under these circumstances, my vote won't count for anything because it's being counted as being the same as "not interested" or "don't care". I'm being forced to decide between two choices, neither of which expresses my opinion on the matter. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:59:48 +0200, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 16/10/2019 à 02:11, Jim Henderson a écrit :

...

The reason for not voting is important to capture, IMO. That's why an abstention option is important.

if so why not a link to a survey:

I don't vote:

* because I dont like... * I don't understant * I don't care ...

or a blank option

blnk mean just that: I want to vote, I come to the vote but I don't like what is proposed...

Right. Which is different from "I can't be bothered to vote".

but here, it seems without signification: , because either you change the name or you don't. If you don't like the way the ballot is made and have it not done, the result is the same as if the answer is no change, as in that situation the name remains unchanged...

I might want a change, depending on what we opt to change to. I would like to see a high-level plan showing that if we opted to change, what that would entail.

...

So my inclination would be to vote "abstain" (or "present", or whatever) until more information about how a change would be implemented were made available.

so you want "no change now"...

No change until I have more information about what we potentially would be changing to. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, On 10/11/19 8:30 PM, L A Walsh wrote:

How do I do mark my ballot as "abstain"? Since I don't want it to appear that I didn't vote out of apathy, but that I am abstaining because voting for a name change without some idea of the names seems like a waste of time.

Abstention means not voting. Abstention doesn't mean that a name change without some idea of names is like a waste of time. Regards, Ish Sookun -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Patrick, On 10/12/19 12:31 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

and how are you tallying the "Abstention" votes w/o and indication that "Abstention" is desired rather than "just not voting".

What I meant is that the act of not voting in itself is abstention. Regards, Ish Sookun -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2019-10-11 at 11:26 -0700, L A Walsh wrote:

On 2019/10/11 10:41, Ish Sookun wrote:

...

What I meant is that the act of not voting in itself is abstention.

So you have no way of recording that someone was there for the vote but didn't vote?

Abstention isn't the same as apathy.

Indeed. I specifically requested a "blank vote" option to be added, so it seems I was ignored. Thus, I can not vote. I'm not alone in this feeling, it seems :-/ - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXaDeOhwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVErkAn2+gZKvpWFCA16fK4vdD xMNv/R4DAJ9GmV5e/eT4gvs6Kr7AuWrsqSPqIQ== =bizf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/10/2019 14.24, Ish Sookun wrote:

Hello,

On 10/11/19 10:26 PM, L A Walsh wrote:

...

So you have no way of recording that someone was there for the vote but didn't vote?

The board has asked the community to express their wish regarding changing or keeping the current project name. How does putting an "Abstain" vote option help in finding consensus?

Some doesn't vote and someone goes to vote but then doesn't vote. Does it actually help?

IMO, yes. If you want to know what we think, that is. If you want to ignore us, then go ahead :-/ -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

Le 15/10/2019 à 18:20, Adam Spiers a écrit :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/None_of_the_above

well... the present vote is a binary vote: change or don't change there is no way of finding an other choice :-( and don't forget only members vote, so low number of already concerned people. jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 15/10/2019 18.20, Adam Spiers wrote:

Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:

...

On 12/10/2019 14.24, Ish Sookun wrote:

...

On 10/11/19 10:26 PM, L A Walsh wrote:

...

...

...

Some doesn't vote and someone goes to vote but then doesn't vote. Does it actually help?

IMO, yes.

Yes, it clearly helps. I don't think this is even a particularly subjective topic. It's standard voting practice, e.g.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/None_of_the_above

Honestly, it scares me a bit that we are even having this discussion.

It does!

...

If you want to know what we think, that is. If you want to ignore us, then go ahead :-/

Right. Please don't ignore us!

-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

Hi Patrick, On 10/12/19 12:49 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

but it is not recorded and indiscernible from not voting. there is a difference from abstention and not voting and they are not equal. one would have to know the choice was made and not just failing to vote.

Let's say we had accommodated the following: Do we keep change the project name? [ ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Abstain Now, are we running a vote to understand the community's wish regarding changing or keeping the project name, or are we running a survey about how the community feels about changing the project name? Regards, Ish Sookun -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Carlos, On 10/12/19 4:47 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

If 80% do not vote, that's bad. But it 80%, say, "abstain", that's good, the decision (yes or no) is valid, because 80% have said they accept it.

I don't get this part. Do you mean to say that an 80% abstention means that whatever the result is they're are accepting it? Regards, Ish Sookun

On Sat 2019-10-12, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Yes. An active vote of Abstain, not the people that do not vote.

I am very supportive of adding such an option to future votes and will push for that.

Of course, you can go finer and add more options to the vote to know what each "abstain" means.

This would go too far in my opinion. Next would be "Yes, but...", "No, unless..." and the like. ;-) Gerald -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/10/2019 08.56, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Sat 2019-10-12, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Yes. An active vote of Abstain, not the people that do not vote.

I am very supportive of adding such an option to future votes and will push for that.

Sorry, that is worth nothing. I have been asking for blank votes on openSUSE and before for decades, and I still have to repeat the explanations year after year, most of the times uselessly. :-( Maybe there is something in the Central European/German mind against counting blank votes :-?

...

Of course, you can go finer and add more options to the vote to know what each "abstain" means.

This would go too far in my opinion. Next would be "Yes, but...", "No, unless..." and the like. ;-)

That's what fuzzy computing is for... ;-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 12/10/2019 à 14:28, Ish Sookun a écrit :

changing or keeping the project name, or are we running a survey about how the community feels about changing the project name?

could have been a good idea :-) survey are easy to make and give infos. Votes gives orders... jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2019-10-12 at 16:28 +0400, Ish Sookun wrote:

Hi Patrick,

On 10/12/19 12:49 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

but it is not recorded and indiscernible from not voting. there is a difference from abstention and not voting and they are not equal. one would have to know the choice was made and not just failing to vote.

Let's say we had accommodated the following:

Do we keep change the project name?

[ ] Yes [ ] No [ ] Abstain

Now, are we running a vote to understand the community's wish regarding changing or keeping the project name, or are we running a survey about how the community feels about changing the project name?

With the wording I would argue we aren't doing either. That question does not address the voter's wish. What about being more explicit and remove some room for interpretation?: Do you support... yes or no Do you agree... yes or no Do you wish... yes or no Or like Gerald's approach: [ ] I am in favor of (one side of the decision) or [ ] I am in favor of (other side of the decision) When I see the current question my answer is "I don't know? Do we?" -Scott

On 10/12/19 7:19 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Ish Sookun <ish.sookun@lasentinelle.mu> [10-11-19 13:52]:

...

Hi Patrick,

On 10/12/19 12:31 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

and how are you tallying the "Abstention" votes w/o and indication that "Abstention" is desired rather than "just not voting".

What I meant is that the act of not voting in itself is abstention.

but it is not recorded and indiscernible from not voting. there is a difference from abstention and not voting and they are not equal. one would have to know the choice was made and not just failing to vote.

Given that all our ballots are private and no one can see who voted for what I don't think abstain really means anything, its not like Australia where it is compulsory to turn up and vote. Having abstain doesn't really tell us anything other then making the result more complex and giving people something to argue over. Personally if we went back and added it i'd just ignore it. We also have to remember that starting a new vote would cause some confusion and we would have to work hard to ensure that people who already voted don't get confused and not vote because they think they already have. While the current vote isn't perfect I think that starting another vote now will just make things worse. The board has made it clear that we are after an indication of whether people would like the openSUSE name changed or not so that we can take that data forward into our future decision making and will try our best to implement that solution, with that in mind while the current naming isn't the best we had it does ask that question. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 08:57:32 -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

imnsho, abstention indicates the provided options are not viable to the voter where not voting indicates a lack of interest or not knowing there is a vote. then a large number of abstentions would indicate the outcome of the vote was seriously flawed.

and I understand completely the problems with leadership by committee but an uninformed vote and/or a indecisive ballot do not provide information worthy of action.

This. This is exactly what my thoughts are. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

* Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> [10-15-19 20:34]: [...]

NOTE: I am not a voter in this poll, but for the record, as I previously wrote, I FIRMLY do NOT want the name 'openSUSE' chanaged.

then you need to take the steps to become a "voting" member as your wants and needs are not being counted. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/16/19 6:10 PM, Stasiek Michalski wrote:

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 2:31 AM, Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> wrote:

...

On 13/10/19 11:57 pm, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> [10-13-19 03:44]:

...

On 10/12/19 7:19 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Ish Sookun <ish.sookun@lasentinelle.mu> [10-11-19 13:52]:

...

Hi Patrick,

On 10/12/19 12:31 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote: > and how are you tallying the "Abstention" votes w/o and > indication that > "Abstention" is desired rather than "just not voting". What I meant is that the act of not voting in itself is abstention. but it is not recorded and indiscernible from not voting.  there is a difference from abstention and not voting and they are not equal. one would have to know the choice was made and not just failing to vote.

Given that all our ballots are private and no one can see who voted for what I don't think abstain really means anything, its not like Australia where it is compulsory to turn up and vote.

Having abstain doesn't really tell us anything other then making the result more complex and giving people something to argue over. Personally if we went back and added it i'd just ignore it.

We also have to remember that starting a new vote would cause some confusion and we would have to work hard to ensure that people who already voted don't get confused and not vote because they think they already have.

While the current vote isn't perfect I think that starting another vote now will just make things worse. The board has made it clear that we are after an indication of whether people would like the openSUSE name changed or not so that we can take that data forward into our future decision making and will try our best to implement that solution, with that in mind while the current naming isn't the best we had it does ask that question.

imnsho, abstention indicates the provided options are not viable to the voter where not voting indicates a lack of interest or not knowing there is a vote.  then a large number of abstentions would indicate the outcome of the vote was seriously flawed.

and I understand completely the problems with leadership by committee but an uninformed vote and/or a indecisive ballot do not provide information worthy of action.

I have read most, but all, of the thread(s) regarding the matter of name change of 'openSUSE'.

My take on the matter is that someone is pushing their own agenda and the decision to change the name from openSUSE to whatever (yet to be decided no doubt by another "vote" of the Community members [which count how many? some 286 or so voters?]) has already been made.

That would be 491 community members, and the idea of another vote to choose the final name was a thing since the beginning. You should familiarize yourself with the initial discussion from May/June.

...

Perhaps I missed the statement, which is quite possible, but I haven't seen where any member of the past or current board has stated that an approach was made to the SUSE management and/or SUSE's legal team and the question was asked of them, "Is their some insurmountable problem which would be faced if the name 'openSUSE' was used for the creation of the suggested '[openSUSE] Foundation'?"

Now, I would have thought that this would have been the very first thing that should have been settled; if the answer was that there is/are no insurmountable problem(s) then their is no need for the vote which is now being conducted, but if the answer was 'Yes' then the everyone's time and effort in creating this poll of the 'Communiy' would be directed at "What should be now call 'openSUSE'. (And I'll bet that that name has already been determined by whoever is pushing their agenda in this matter.)

What is that name? I would love to hear it.

...

If I have missed the part where SUSE management and their legal team has been asked "The Question" then I apologise for wasting your time in reading what I wrote and would greatly appreciate it if 'you' could point me to the the post(s) where the response to "The Question" was quoted.

I asked this question in form of "How restricting would openSUSE be in case we used it as the foundation name?", however, afaik, it never got past the board, just because we still had/have(?) no clue about the final form of the foundation, so it wasn't/isn't(?) worth it to get the lawyers involved.

This is basically correct, the initial discussions we had with a more general lawyer around the time this was first discussed was it could be quite restrictive, but followup with a trademark lawyer has suggested that it should not be restrictive at all. This is why the board would really like your opinion on a name change without taking this issue too much into account. If most want to change the name anyway then its a non issue, if an "openSUSE Foundation" does end up being too legally restrictive for whatever reason then the board will propose using something else (but if most people want to not change the project's name we won't change the name of anything else). But the current advice the board has is it shouldn't be legally restrictive so we hope to just be able to follow the result of the vote. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/17/19 1:11 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> [10-16-19 18:16]:

...

On 10/16/19 6:10 PM, Stasiek Michalski wrote:

...

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 2:31 AM, Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> wrote:

...

On 13/10/19 11:57 pm, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> [10-13-19 03:44]:

...

On 10/12/19 7:19 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote: > * Ish Sookun <ish.sookun@lasentinelle.mu> [10-11-19 13:52]: >> Hi Patrick, >> >> On 10/12/19 12:31 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote: >>> and how are you tallying the "Abstention" votes >>> w/o and indication that >>> "Abstention" is desired rather than "just not voting". >> What I meant is that the act of not voting in itself is abstention. > but it is not recorded and indiscernible from not voting.  there is a > difference from abstention and not voting and they are not equal. one > would have to know the choice was made and not just failing to vote. > Given that all our ballots are private and no one can see who voted for what I don't think abstain really means anything, its not like Australia where it is compulsory to turn up and vote.

Having abstain doesn't really tell us anything other then making the result more complex and giving people something to argue over. Personally if we went back and added it i'd just ignore it.

We also have to remember that starting a new vote would cause some confusion and we would have to work hard to ensure that people who already voted don't get confused and not vote because they think they already have.

While the current vote isn't perfect I think that starting another vote now will just make things worse. The board has made it clear that we are after an indication of whether people would like the openSUSE name changed or not so that we can take that data forward into our future decision making and will try our best to implement that solution, with that in mind while the current naming isn't the best we had it does ask that question.

imnsho, abstention indicates the provided options are not viable to the voter where not voting indicates a lack of interest or not knowing there is a vote.  then a large number of abstentions would indicate the outcome of the vote was seriously flawed.

and I understand completely the problems with leadership by committee but an uninformed vote and/or a indecisive ballot do not provide information worthy of action.

I have read most, but all, of the thread(s) regarding the matter of name change of 'openSUSE'.

My take on the matter is that someone is pushing their own agenda and the decision to change the name from openSUSE to whatever (yet to be decided no doubt by another "vote" of the Community members [which count how many? some 286 or so voters?]) has already been made.

That would be 491 community members, and the idea of another vote to choose the final name was a thing since the beginning. You should familiarize yourself with the initial discussion from May/June.

...

Perhaps I missed the statement, which is quite possible, but I haven't seen where any member of the past or current board has stated that an approach was made to the SUSE management and/or SUSE's legal team and the question was asked of them, "Is their some insurmountable problem which would be faced if the name 'openSUSE' was used for the creation of the suggested '[openSUSE] Foundation'?"

Now, I would have thought that this would have been the very first thing that should have been settled; if the answer was that there is/are no insurmountable problem(s) then their is no need for the vote which is now being conducted, but if the answer was 'Yes' then the everyone's time and effort in creating this poll of the 'Communiy' would be directed at "What should be now call 'openSUSE'. (And I'll bet that that name has already been determined by whoever is pushing their agenda in this matter.)

What is that name? I would love to hear it.

...

If I have missed the part where SUSE management and their legal team has been asked "The Question" then I apologise for wasting your time in reading what I wrote and would greatly appreciate it if 'you' could point me to the the post(s) where the response to "The Question" was quoted.

I asked this question in form of "How restricting would openSUSE be in case we used it as the foundation name?", however, afaik, it never got past the board, just because we still had/have(?) no clue about the final form of the foundation, so it wasn't/isn't(?) worth it to get the lawyers involved.

This is basically correct, the initial discussions we had with a more general lawyer around the time this was first discussed was it could be quite restrictive, but followup with a trademark lawyer has suggested that it should not be restrictive at all.

This is why the board would really like your opinion on a name change without taking this issue too much into account. If most want to change the name anyway then its a non issue, if an "openSUSE Foundation" does end up being too legally restrictive for whatever reason then the board will propose using something else (but if most people want to not change the project's name we won't change the name of anything else). But the current advice the board has is it shouldn't be legally restrictive so we hope to just be able to follow the result of the vote.

so we can expect a ballot which allows our opinion to be counted rather than just a yes vs no along with an explanation of what the vote is for?

or not ...

To read between the lines of your wording the board has decided not to include any further options in the vote, however we are working toward having a page with a clear explanation of what the vote is for including a summary of the arguments for each side. We expect this to be finalised in the coming days and will be sent out to everyone eligible to vote. Anyone who has already voted will be able to change there vote if they have changed there mind. But just for you the explanation is quite simple, we are asking you if **you** think openSUSE should change its name everywhere in such a way that eventually the name "openSUSE" doesn't exist and is replaced with something else. The board will use this information to guide our decision making around issues related to the creation of a foundation initially and if the result is that of a change we will then work out how to move forward elsewhere. But as I have said the board is still working through some final details and when they are sorted you will know more. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

* Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> [10-16-19 23:29]:

On 10/17/19 1:11 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> [10-16-19 18:16]:

...

On 10/16/19 6:10 PM, Stasiek Michalski wrote:

...

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 2:31 AM, Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> wrote:

...

On 13/10/19 11:57 pm, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> [10-13-19 03:44]: > > On 10/12/19 7:19 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote: > > * Ish Sookun <ish.sookun@lasentinelle.mu> [10-11-19 13:52]: > > > Hi Patrick, > > > > > > On 10/12/19 12:31 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote: > > > > and how are you tallying the "Abstention" votes > > > > w/o and indication that > > > > "Abstention" is desired rather than "just not voting". > > > What I meant is that the act of not voting in itself is abstention. > > but it is not recorded and indiscernible from not voting.  there is a > > difference from abstention and not voting and they are not equal. one > > would have to know the choice was made and not just failing to vote. > > > Given that all our ballots are private and no one can see > who voted for what > I don't think abstain really means anything, its not like > Australia where it > is compulsory to turn up and vote. > > Having abstain doesn't really tell us anything other then > making the result > more complex and giving people something to argue over. > Personally if we > went back and added it i'd just ignore it. > > We also have to remember that starting a new vote would > cause some confusion > and we would have to work hard to ensure that people who > already voted don't > get confused and not vote because they think they already have. > > While the current vote isn't perfect I think that starting > another vote now > will just make things worse. The board has made it clear > that we are after > an indication of whether people would like the openSUSE name > changed or not > so that we can take that data forward into our future > decision making and > will try our best to implement that solution, with that in > mind while the > current naming isn't the best we had it does ask that question. imnsho, abstention indicates the provided options are not viable to the voter where not voting indicates a lack of interest or not knowing there is a vote.  then a large number of abstentions would indicate the outcome of the vote was seriously flawed.

and I understand completely the problems with leadership by committee but an uninformed vote and/or a indecisive ballot do not provide information worthy of action.

I have read most, but all, of the thread(s) regarding the matter of name change of 'openSUSE'.

My take on the matter is that someone is pushing their own agenda and the decision to change the name from openSUSE to whatever (yet to be decided no doubt by another "vote" of the Community members [which count how many? some 286 or so voters?]) has already been made.

That would be 491 community members, and the idea of another vote to choose the final name was a thing since the beginning. You should familiarize yourself with the initial discussion from May/June.

...

Perhaps I missed the statement, which is quite possible, but I haven't seen where any member of the past or current board has stated that an approach was made to the SUSE management and/or SUSE's legal team and the question was asked of them, "Is their some insurmountable problem which would be faced if the name 'openSUSE' was used for the creation of the suggested '[openSUSE] Foundation'?"

Now, I would have thought that this would have been the very first thing that should have been settled; if the answer was that there is/are no insurmountable problem(s) then their is no need for the vote which is now being conducted, but if the answer was 'Yes' then the everyone's time and effort in creating this poll of the 'Communiy' would be directed at "What should be now call 'openSUSE'. (And I'll bet that that name has already been determined by whoever is pushing their agenda in this matter.)

What is that name? I would love to hear it.

...

If I have missed the part where SUSE management and their legal team has been asked "The Question" then I apologise for wasting your time in reading what I wrote and would greatly appreciate it if 'you' could point me to the the post(s) where the response to "The Question" was quoted.

I asked this question in form of "How restricting would openSUSE be in case we used it as the foundation name?", however, afaik, it never got past the board, just because we still had/have(?) no clue about the final form of the foundation, so it wasn't/isn't(?) worth it to get the lawyers involved.

This is basically correct, the initial discussions we had with a more general lawyer around the time this was first discussed was it could be quite restrictive, but followup with a trademark lawyer has suggested that it should not be restrictive at all.

This is why the board would really like your opinion on a name change without taking this issue too much into account. If most want to change the name anyway then its a non issue, if an "openSUSE Foundation" does end up being too legally restrictive for whatever reason then the board will propose using something else (but if most people want to not change the project's name we won't change the name of anything else). But the current advice the board has is it shouldn't be legally restrictive so we hope to just be able to follow the result of the vote.

so we can expect a ballot which allows our opinion to be counted rather than just a yes vs no along with an explanation of what the vote is for?

or not ...

To read between the lines of your wording the board has decided not to include any further options in the vote, however we are working toward having a page with a clear explanation of what the vote is for including a summary of the arguments for each side.

We expect this to be finalised in the coming days and will be sent out to everyone eligible to vote. Anyone who has already voted will be able to change there vote if they have changed there mind.

But just for you the explanation is quite simple, we are asking you if **you** think openSUSE should change its name everywhere in such a way that eventually the name "openSUSE" doesn't exist and is replaced with something else. The board will use this information to guide our decision making around issues related to the creation of a foundation initially and if the result is that of a change we will then work out how to move forward elsewhere.

But as I have said the board is still working through some final details and when they are sorted you will know more.

and I will again vote *against* changing from openSUSE. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 17. Oktober 2019, 18:13:15 CEST schrieb Scott Bahling:

On Thu, 2019-10-17 at 08:45 +1030, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 10/16/19 6:10 PM, Stasiek Michalski wrote: ...

...

...

I asked this question in form of "How restricting would openSUSE be in case we used it as the foundation name?", however, afaik, it never got past the board, just because we still had/have(?) no clue about the final form of the foundation, so it wasn't/isn't(?) worth it to get the lawyers involved.

This is basically correct, the initial discussions we had with a more general lawyer around the time this was first discussed was it could be quite restrictive, but followup with a trademark lawyer has suggested that it should not be restrictive at all.

This is why the board would really like your opinion on a name change without taking this issue too much into account. If most want to change the name anyway then its a non issue, if an "openSUSE Foundation" does end up being too legally restrictive for whatever reason then the board will propose using something else (but if most people want to not change the project's name we won't change the name of anything else). But the current advice the board has is it shouldn't be legally restrictive so we hope to just be able to follow the result of the vote.

Aha? That is an important piece of information I somehow missed in the threads up to now. I was under the assumption that the name change was exactly because there was fear of legal restrictions hurting us in the future.

We (the board) consulted a specialized lawyer for trademark issues, and talked to a judge as well. It pointed out that both independent legal entities (openSUSE and SUSE) can keep their brands and go into competition with each other, so trademarks would not be a show-stopper.

My opinion is that a brand name change should NOT happen based on popular opinion, but done to work around foreseen and otherwise insurmountable issues. I believe that is pretty much standard advice for anyone serious about brand integrity and recognition. Has the board sourced any expert advice in this area? Including what would be best for the success of a new foundation (starting with a new name vs using an established name)?

https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2019-06/msg00128.html Cheers Axel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/18/19 7:13 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Axel Braun <axel.braun@gmx.de> [10-17-19 16:12]:

...

Am Donnerstag, 17. Oktober 2019, 18:13:15 CEST schrieb Scott Bahling:

...

On Thu, 2019-10-17 at 08:45 +1030, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 10/16/19 6:10 PM, Stasiek Michalski wrote: ...

...

...

I asked this question in form of "How restricting would openSUSE be in case we used it as the foundation name?", however, afaik, it never got past the board, just because we still had/have(?) no clue about the final form of the foundation, so it wasn't/isn't(?) worth it to get the lawyers involved.

This is basically correct, the initial discussions we had with a more general lawyer around the time this was first discussed was it could be quite restrictive, but followup with a trademark lawyer has suggested that it should not be restrictive at all.

This is why the board would really like your opinion on a name change without taking this issue too much into account. If most want to change the name anyway then its a non issue, if an "openSUSE Foundation" does end up being too legally restrictive for whatever reason then the board will propose using something else (but if most people want to not change the project's name we won't change the name of anything else). But the current advice the board has is it shouldn't be legally restrictive so we hope to just be able to follow the result of the vote.

Aha? That is an important piece of information I somehow missed in the threads up to now. I was under the assumption that the name change was exactly because there was fear of legal restrictions hurting us in the future.

We (the board) consulted a specialized lawyer for trademark issues, and talked to a judge as well. It pointed out that both independent legal entities (openSUSE and SUSE) can keep their brands and go into competition with each other, so trademarks would not be a show-stopper.

...

My opinion is that a brand name change should NOT happen based on popular opinion, but done to work around foreseen and otherwise insurmountable issues. I believe that is pretty much standard advice for anyone serious about brand integrity and recognition. Has the board sourced any expert advice in this area? Including what would be best for the success of a new foundation (starting with a new name vs using an established name)?

https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2019-06/msg00128.html

then there is not reason for the vote unless it is *only* to change the name of our distribution.

why are we having a vote?

Because some people would like to change the name of the distribution along with all the other parts of the project so the name openSUSE doesn't exist anywhere. As it is nearly impossible to change the name of a foundation once it is established the board thinks it would be silly to have a "openSUSE Foundation" and go to the effort of resolving all the issues around that when in 12 months the community might want a different name instead. As such the board thinks its wise to have this issue settled before we start further detailed work on the foundation. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 18/10/19 12:36 pm, Simon Lees wrote:

On 10/18/19 7:13 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

...

Am Donnerstag, 17. Oktober 2019, 18:13:15 CEST schrieb Scott Bahling:

...

On Thu, 2019-10-17 at 08:45 +1030, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 10/16/19 6:10 PM, Stasiek Michalski wrote: ...

...

...

I asked this question in form of "How restricting would openSUSE be in case we used it as the foundation name?", however, afaik, it never got past the board, just because we still had/have(?) no clue about the final form of the foundation, so it wasn't/isn't(?) worth it to get the lawyers involved. This is basically correct, the initial discussions we had with a more general lawyer around the time this was first discussed was it could be quite restrictive, but followup with a trademark lawyer has suggested that it should not be restrictive at all.

This is why the board would really like your opinion on a name change without taking this issue too much into account. If most want to change the name anyway then its a non issue, if an "openSUSE Foundation" does end up being too legally restrictive for whatever reason then the board will propose using something else (but if most people want to not change the project's name we won't change the name of anything else). But the current advice the board has is it shouldn't be legally restrictive so we hope to just be able to follow the result of the vote. Aha? That is an important piece of information I somehow missed in the threads up to now. I was under the assumption that the name change was exactly because there was fear of legal restrictions hurting us in the future. We (the board) consulted a specialized lawyer for trademark issues, and talked to a judge as well. It pointed out that both independent legal entities (openSUSE and SUSE) can keep their brands and go into competition with each other, so trademarks would not be a show-stopper.

...

My opinion is that a brand name change should NOT happen based on popular opinion, but done to work around foreseen and otherwise insurmountable issues. I believe that is pretty much standard advice for anyone serious about brand integrity and recognition. Has the board sourced any expert advice in this area? Including what would be best for the success of a new foundation (starting with a new name vs using an established name)? https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2019-06/msg00128.html

* Axel Braun <axel.braun@gmx.de> [10-17-19 16:12]: then there is not reason for the vote unless it is *only* to change the name of our distribution.

why are we having a vote? Because some people would like to change the name of the distribution along with all the other parts of the project so the name openSUSE doesn't exist anywhere.

Who are these people, please?

As it is nearly impossible to change the name of a foundation once it is established the board thinks it would be silly to have a "openSUSE Foundation" and go to the effort of resolving all the issues around that when in 12 months the community might want a different name instead.

"..the "community *might* want..."?! [emphasis added]

As such the board thinks its wise to have this issue settled before we start further detailed work on the foundation.

-- Adolescence n: Stage between puberty and adultery. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 18/10/19 8:42 pm, Simon Lees wrote:

On 10/18/19 7:51 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 18/10/19 12:36 pm, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 10/18/19 7:13 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

...

Am Donnerstag, 17. Oktober 2019, 18:13:15 CEST schrieb Scott Bahling:

...

On Thu, 2019-10-17 at 08:45 +1030, Simon Lees wrote: > On 10/16/19 6:10 PM, Stasiek Michalski wrote: ...

>> I asked this question in form of "How restricting would openSUSE >> be in >> case we used it as the foundation name?", however, afaik, it >> never got >> past the board, just because we still had/have(?) no clue about the >> final form of the foundation, so it wasn't/isn't(?) worth it to >> get the >> lawyers involved. > This is basically correct, the initial discussions we had with a more > general lawyer around the time this was first discussed was it > could be > quite restrictive, but followup with a trademark lawyer has suggested > that it should not be restrictive at all. > > This is why the board would really like your opinion on a name change > without taking this issue too much into account. If most want to > change > the name anyway then its a non issue, if an "openSUSE Foundation" > does > end up being too legally restrictive for whatever reason then the > board > will propose using something else (but if most people want to not > change > the project's name we won't change the name of anything else). But > the > current advice the board has is it shouldn't be legally > restrictive so > we hope to just be able to follow the result of the vote. Aha? That is an important piece of information I somehow missed in the threads up to now. I was under the assumption that the name change was exactly because there was fear of legal restrictions hurting us in the future. We (the board) consulted a specialized lawyer for trademark issues, and talked to a judge as well. It pointed out that both independent legal entities (openSUSE and SUSE) can keep their brands and go into competition with each other, so trademarks would not be a show-stopper.

...

My opinion is that a brand name change should NOT happen based on popular opinion, but done to work around foreseen and otherwise insurmountable issues. I believe that is pretty much standard advice for anyone serious about brand integrity and recognition. Has the board sourced any expert advice in this area? Including what would be best for the success of a new foundation (starting with a new name vs using an established name)? https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2019-06/msg00128.html

* Axel Braun<axel.braun@gmx.de> [10-17-19 16:12]: then there is not reason for the vote unless it is *only* to change the name of our distribution.

why are we having a vote? Because some people would like to change the name of the distribution along with all the other parts of the project so the name openSUSE doesn't exist anywhere. Who are these people, please? Several of them commented in the original thread on this subject, they are not that hard to find. If they didn't we wouldn't be having this vote.

OK, in the thread which I believe to be the beginning of this "discussion", it was floated that the LOGO of openSUSE be changed. Repeat, the LOGO. However, Richard Brown, while still a member of the Board, then introduced the idea of also changing the Name so that it did not contain the word 'SUSE'. And, as you even admitted in an earlier post, there is no reason for a name change so any voting now under way should be about changing the LOGO and not the name. BC -- chestnuts n.- An embarrassing and painful male condition. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 20/10/19 3:43 am, Stasiek Michalski wrote:

On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 10:26 AM, Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> wrote:

...

On 18/10/19 8:42 pm, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 10/18/19 7:51 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 18/10/19 12:36 pm, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 10/18/19 7:13 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Axel Braun<axel.braun@gmx.de>  [10-17-19 16:12]: > Am Donnerstag, 17. Oktober 2019, 18:13:15 CEST schrieb Scott > Bahling: >> On Thu, 2019-10-17 at 08:45 +1030, Simon Lees wrote: >>> On 10/16/19 6:10 PM, Stasiek Michalski wrote: >> ... >> >>>> I asked this question in form of "How restricting would openSUSE >>>> be in >>>> case we used it as the foundation name?", however, afaik, it >>>> never got >>>> past the board, just because we still had/have(?) no clue >>>> about the >>>> final form of the foundation, so it wasn't/isn't(?) worth it to >>>> get the >>>> lawyers involved. >>> This is basically correct, the initial discussions we had with >>> a more >>> general lawyer around the time this was first discussed was it >>> could be >>> quite restrictive, but followup with a trademark lawyer has >>> suggested >>> that it should not be restrictive at all. >>> >>> This is why the board would really like your opinion on a name >>> change >>> without taking this issue too much into account. If most want to >>> change >>> the name anyway then its a non issue, if an "openSUSE Foundation" >>> does >>> end up being too legally restrictive for whatever reason then the >>> board >>> will propose using something else (but if most people want to not >>> change >>> the project's name we won't change the name of anything else). >>> But >>> the >>> current advice the board has is it shouldn't be legally >>> restrictive so >>> we hope to just be able to follow the result of the vote. >> Aha? That is an important piece of information I somehow missed >> in the >> threads up to now. I was under the assumption that the name >> change was >> exactly because there was fear of legal restrictions hurting us >> in the >> future. > We (the board) consulted a specialized lawyer for trademark issues, > and talked > to a judge as well. It pointed out that both independent legal > entities > (openSUSE and SUSE) can keep their brands and go into competition > with each > other, so trademarks would not be a show-stopper. > >> My opinion is that a brand name change should NOT happen based on >> popular opinion, but done to work around foreseen and otherwise >> insurmountable issues. I believe that is pretty much standard >> advice for >> anyone serious about brand integrity and recognition. Has the >> board >> sourced any expert advice in this area? Including what would be >> best for >> the success of a new foundation (starting with a new name vs >> using an >> established name)? > https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2019-06/msg00128.html then there is not reason for the vote unless it is *only* to change the name of our distribution.

why are we having a vote? Because some people would like to change the name of the distribution along with all the other parts of the project so the name openSUSE doesn't exist anywhere. Who are these people, please? Several of them commented in the original thread on this subject, they are not that hard to find. If they didn't we wouldn't be having this vote.

OK, in the thread which I believe to be the beginning of this "discussion", it was floated that the LOGO of openSUSE be changed. Repeat, the LOGO.

However, Richard Brown, while still a member of the Board, then introduced the idea of also changing the Name so that it did not contain the word 'SUSE'.

And, as you even admitted in an earlier post, there is no reason for a name change so any voting now under way should be about changing the LOGO and not the name.

Logo vote is coming as soon as we figure out the name.

LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world

OMG! :-D . And who thought all this up?! BC -- chestnuts n.- An embarrassing and painful male condition. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 21/10/19 2:19 pm, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> [10-20-19 21:45]:

goodness, 10 levels of quotes and many signatures. maybe time to relate a recent post from another openSUSE list:

On 10/19/19 11:55 PM, Adam Spiers wrote:

...

Please can *everyone*[1] trim unnecessary quoted text from their replies? It's tiring to have to scroll through pages of old text just to reach a one-line reply at the bottom. Thanks in advance!

Thanks for bringing this up.

There is this nice wiki page [1] about mailing list netiquette. I usually use as a reference in local meetups whenever netiquette is brought up.

Regards,

Ish Sookun

[1] https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette

and this is directed at the LIST, not one particular poster.

if you cannot take the time to trim your posts, and be considerate, why post at all!

On 17 October 2019 Patrick Shanahan wrote in this thread the following, and I quote: <quote> * Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> [10-16-19 23:29]:

On 10/17/19 1:11 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> [10-16-19 18:16]:

...

On 10/16/19 6:10 PM, Stasiek Michalski wrote:

...

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 2:31 AM, Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> wrote:

...

On 13/10/19 11:57 pm, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> [10-13-19 03:44]: > > On 10/12/19 7:19 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote: >> * Ish Sookun <ish.sookun@lasentinelle.mu> [10-11-19 13:52]: >>> Hi Patrick, >>> >>> On 10/12/19 12:31 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote: >>>> and how are you tallying the "Abstention" votes >>>> w/o and indication that >>>> "Abstention" is desired rather than "just not voting". >>> What I meant is that the act of not voting in itself is

...

...

...

...

...

>> but it is not recorded and indiscernible from not voting.�

...

...

...

...

...

>> difference from abstention and not voting and they are not equal. one >> would have to know the choice was made and not just failing to vote. >> > Given that all our ballots are private and no one can see > who voted for what > I don't think abstain really means anything, its not like > Australia where it > is compulsory to turn up and vote. > > Having abstain doesn't really tell us anything other then > making the result > more complex and giving people something to argue over. > Personally if we > went back and added it i'd just ignore it. > > We also have to remember that starting a new vote would > cause some confusion > and we would have to work hard to ensure that people who > already voted don't > get confused and not vote because they think they already have. > > While the current vote isn't perfect I think that starting > another vote now > will just make things worse. The board has made it clear > that we are after > an indication of whether people would like the openSUSE name > changed or not > so that we can take that data forward into our future > decision making and > will try our best to implement that solution, with that in > mind while the > current naming isn't the best we had it does ask that question. imnsho, abstention indicates the provided options are not viable to the voter where not voting indicates a lack of interest or not knowing there is a vote.� then a large number of abstentions would indicate the outcome of the vote was seriously flawed.

and I understand completely the problems with leadership by committee but an uninformed vote and/or a indecisive ballot do not provide information worthy of action.

I have read most, but all, of the thread(s) regarding the matter of name change of 'openSUSE'.

My take on the matter is that someone is pushing their own agenda and the decision to change the name from openSUSE to whatever (yet to be decided no doubt by another "vote" of the Community members [which count how many? some 286 or so voters?]) has already been made.

That would be 491 community members, and the idea of another vote to choose the final name was a thing since the beginning. You should familiarize yourself with the initial discussion from May/June.

...

Perhaps I missed the statement, which is quite possible, but I haven't seen where any member of the past or current board has stated that an approach was made to the SUSE management and/or SUSE's legal team and the question was asked of them, "Is their some insurmountable problem which would be faced if the name 'openSUSE' was used for the creation of the suggested '[openSUSE] Foundation'?"

Now, I would have thought that this would have been the very first thing that should have been settled; if the answer was that there is/are no insurmountable problem(s) then their is no need for the vote which is now being conducted, but if the answer was 'Yes' then the everyone's time and effort in creating this poll of the 'Communiy' would be directed at "What should be now call 'openSUSE'. (And I'll bet that that name has already been determined by whoever is pushing their agenda in this matter.)

What is that name? I would love to hear it.

...

If I have missed the part where SUSE management and their legal team has been asked "The Question" then I apologise for wasting your time in reading what I wrote and would greatly appreciate it if 'you' could point me to the the post(s) where the response to "The Question" was quoted.

I asked this question in form of "How restricting would openSUSE be in case we used it as the foundation name?", however, afaik, it never got past the board, just because we still had/have(?) no clue about the final form of the foundation, so it wasn't/isn't(?) worth it to get the lawyers involved.

This is basically correct, the initial discussions we had with a more general lawyer around the time this was first discussed was it could be quite restrictive, but followup with a trademark lawyer has suggested that it should not be restrictive at all.

This is why the board would really like your opinion on a name change without taking this issue too much into account. If most want to change the name anyway then its a non issue, if an "openSUSE Foundation" does end up being too legally restrictive for whatever reason then the board will propose using something else (but if most people want to not change the project's name we won't change the name of anything else). But the current advice the board has is it shouldn't be legally restrictive so we hope to just be able to follow the result of the vote.

so we can expect a ballot which allows our opinion to be counted rather than just a yes vs no along with an explanation of what the vote is for?

or not ...

To read between the lines of your wording the board has decided not to include any further options in the vote, however we are working toward having a page with a clear explanation of what the vote is for including a summary of the arguments for each side.

We expect this to be finalised in the coming days and will be sent out to everyone eligible to vote. Anyone who has already voted will be able to change there vote if they have changed there mind.

But just for you the explanation is quite simple, we are asking you if **you** think openSUSE should change its name everywhere in such a way that eventually the name "openSUSE" doesn't exist and is replaced with something else. The board will use this information to guide our decision making around issues related to the creation of a foundation initially and if the result is that of a change we will then work out how to move forward elsewhere.

But as I have said the board is still working through some final

abstention. there is a details and

when they are sorted you will know more.

and I will again vote *against* changing from openSUSE. </quote> "Do as I say, not as I do". -- chestnuts n.- An embarrassing and painful male condition. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 21/10/19 11:11 pm, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> [10-21-19 01:36]:

...

On 21/10/19 2:19 pm, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

[pruned]

you apparently took exception to and did not read: "and this is directed at the LIST, not one particular poster."

and nowhere did I say I was not also guilty. but you really *wanted* to throw stones .... :(

So, Patrick, it was simply a coincidence that your 'parental advice' just happen to be as a reply to my post? OK, I accept that coincidences happen...:-) . BC -- chestnuts n.- An embarrassing and painful male condition. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org