[opensuse-project] LQ thread could use more precise defending from TW users

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Felix Miata

23 Jan 2019 23 Jan '19

12:17

https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-newbie-8/is-suse-linux-the-be... -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

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hellcp＠opensuse.org

23 Jan 23 Jan

12:38

On śro, 23 sty, 2019 at 1:17 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-newbie-8/is-suse-linux-the-be...

Hi, I think instead of "defending" Tumbleweed, we should take out our notepads and take notes what causes issues for people. If you are 200% sure the feedback from user isn't valid anymore, feel free to correct them. Until then, please report bugs, suggest improvements, relay to developers what people find troublesome, annoying etc. Tumbleweed isn't good enough for most people, and I would really like it to be at least that ;) That also applies to Leap, websites, whatever else openSUSE makes. We should aspire to be better, not to argue that everything is perfect, it never is. You'll Be Perfect When You're Dead. LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E.R.

13:13

On 23/01/2019 13.38, hellcp@opensuse.org wrote:

...

On śro, 23 sty, 2019 at 1:17 PM, Felix Miata <> wrote:

...
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-newbie-8/is-suse-linux-the-be...

Hi,

I think instead of "defending" Tumbleweed, we should take out our notepads and take notes what causes issues for people.

Ok! :-) One says: +++............. I actually consider OpenSuse to be the worst OS I've ever used in my life. I hate it more than I hate MacOS or WindowsME. edit: for those who wonder why - I hate that with OpenSuse you can uninstall software, then the next time you do a zypper dup, it REINSTALLS all the software you uninstalled for you!! I hate it. With a passion. .............++- Well, years ago this did not happen. YaST kept some kind of list of what was removed and respected it. The feature was removed and has not come back. +++............. I always found it to be bloated, slow, and buggy. .............++- (I fear he may be right re bloat. With the same basic workload, I see Leap using more memory than 13.1) +++............. OpenSuse KDE is simply significantly slower than pretty much any other KDE distro. Even Fedora runs rings around it, and Fedora definitely isn't the fastest in the world. .............++- +++............. I tried out Leap (15, I think?) on my laptop. This usually requires a couple of kernel modules to get everything running properly. The website tool thing at https://software.opensuse.org is a bit cumbersome and disorienting, and the whole experience of visiting https://software.opensuse.org/package/tp_smapi-kmp to hunt for a kernel module download link wasn't something I enjoyed. Maybe I'm just terribly spoiled by distributions that package the things I need. .............++- I don't understand what he is doing. +++............. There's a lot that I like about Open Suse, but so far I have not been tempted to install it as my main OS. The main things that put me off are that from a default install, it feels bloated, buggy and slow compared to some other distros. While this may sound harsh, I would add that thanks to the tremendous work of Linux developers, the bar is set very high. I'm certainly not implying that Open Suse is anywhere near as bloated, buggy or slow as Windows 10. .............++- I don't understand the complain about "buggy", although they may be using a different desktop than I do. +++............. I found SUSE tumbleweed a bit over bloated, not enough manual choices on install time and also was a real dogs dinner of a mess to install -- it also overwrote my boot partition on a Windows laptop. Centos at leasts allows you to install to specific places and doesn't touch other HDD's / SSD's in your system. .............++- Didn't see the expert mode partitioner? Then, people ignore "basics": +++............. edit: for those who wonder why - I hate that with OpenSuse you can uninstall software, then the next time you do a zypper dup, it REINSTALLS all the software you uninstalled for you!! I hate it. With a passion. Now that is "funny". I use tumbleweed and thus do several times a week a "zypper dup". Never had this problem, but I seem to remember that you can export your Software configuration (at least with YAST). I don't know your machine's setup but you might want to delete or rename the file which contains this software-list which (hypothetically at least) reloads all those programs you don't want anymore. .............++- Of course, no such file. And of course, they write OpenSUSE, or SUSE, or Open Suse, or OpenSuse... -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

hellcp＠opensuse.org

13:36

On śro, 23 sty, 2019 at 2:13 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

...

On 23/01/2019 13.38, hellcp@opensuse.org wrote:

...
On śro, 23 sty, 2019 at 1:17 PM, Felix Miata <> wrote:

...
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-newbie-8/is-suse-linux-the-be...

Hi,

I think instead of "defending" Tumbleweed, we should take out our notepads and take notes what causes issues for people.

Ok! :-)

One says:

+++............. I actually consider OpenSuse to be the worst OS I've ever used in my life. I hate it more than I hate MacOS or WindowsME.

edit: for those who wonder why - I hate that with OpenSuse you can uninstall software, then the next time you do a zypper dup, it REINSTALLS all the software you uninstalled for you!! I hate it. With a passion. .............++-

Well, years ago this did not happen. YaST kept some kind of list of what was removed and respected it. The feature was removed and has not come back.

I've been saying that zypp should inherit some features from dnf for quite some time, one of them is database, which tracks what I would call "intention". Intention would allow to specify for every installed package who installed or removed it, which would allow for packages in'd/rm'd for purpose by user to be kept in'd/rm'd even if solver found it to be suggested by another package (pattern for example). The rest of packages would be marked as autoselected (since they were either a dep of another package or installed during installation process).

...

+++............. I always found it to be bloated, slow, and buggy. .............++-

(I fear he may be right re bloat. With the same basic workload, I see Leap using more memory than 13.1)

Also one of my suggestions was to decouple applications in patterns from base DEs, so people can get their chosen applications later. Usually people mentioning bloat it's amount of installed applications they will never use and not necessairly high ram usage (it's Linux, not Windows, it's still rather low). Removing anything from the pattern is a pain, which is the subject to previous mentioned suggestion, but it wouldn't hurt to have applications not a part of that base pattern, but installed as part of DE's desktop selection. Current dependencies in the patterns are also kind of a pain, maybe it would be better to not make patterns depend on each other, instead install patterns that we want to have installed by default with the help of desktop selection. I will look into that, but that's again an openQA nightmare to be had :P

...

+++............. OpenSuse KDE is simply significantly slower than pretty much any other KDE distro. Even Fedora runs rings around it, and Fedora definitely isn't the fastest in the world. .............++-

+++............. I tried out Leap (15, I think?) on my laptop. This usually requires a couple of kernel modules to get everything running properly. The website tool thing at https://software.opensuse.org is a bit cumbersome and disorienting, and the whole experience of visiting https://software.opensuse.org/package/tp_smapi-kmp to hunt for a kernel module download link wasn't something I enjoyed. Maybe I'm just terribly spoiled by distributions that package the things I need. .............++-

I don't understand what he is doing.

Working on improving UX of both metapackage handler and software-o-o, I know what's the issue they are facing, it's annoying and unnecessary the way it's done currently, but I'm working on it.

...

+++............. There's a lot that I like about Open Suse, but so far I have not been tempted to install it as my main OS. The main things that put me off are that from a default install, it feels bloated, buggy and slow compared to some other distros. While this may sound harsh, I would add that thanks to the tremendous work of Linux developers, the bar is set very high. I'm certainly not implying that Open Suse is anywhere near as bloated, buggy or slow as Windows 10. .............++-

I don't understand the complain about "buggy", although they may be using a different desktop than I do.

+++............. I found SUSE tumbleweed a bit over bloated, not enough manual choices on install time and also was a real dogs dinner of a mess to install -- it also overwrote my boot partition on a Windows laptop. Centos at leasts allows you to install to specific places and doesn't touch other HDD's / SSD's in your system. .............++-

Didn't see the expert mode partitioner?

Then, people ignore "basics": +++............. edit: for those who wonder why - I hate that with OpenSuse you can uninstall software, then the next time you do a zypper dup, it REINSTALLS all the software you uninstalled for you!! I hate it. With a passion. Now that is "funny". I use tumbleweed and thus do several times a week a "zypper dup". Never had this problem, but I seem to remember that you can export your Software configuration (at least with YAST). I don't know your machine's setup but you might want to delete or rename the file which contains this software-list which (hypothetically at least) reloads all those programs you don't want anymore. .............++-

Of course, no such file.

Related to first suggestion :P

...

And of course, they write OpenSUSE, or SUSE, or Open Suse, or OpenSuse...

There's no escaping that :P Eh, I guess I'm working on all those compliants now ;) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Liam Proven

16:17

On 1/23/19 2:13 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

...

Well, years ago this did not happen. YaST kept some kind of list of what was removed and respected it. The feature was removed and has not come back.

Still happens. Has happened to me in the last 12 months. Actually, no, scratch that, has happened to me _this year_. Examples: * I hate the "client-side decoration" of modern GNOME 3 apps. Tumbleweed with Xfce includes several: Evince, for example. I remove them and replace them with Mint XApps, such as in this case XReader, which has a proper title bar, menu bar and toolbar. Tumbleweed sees this, goes "oi! That's part of the metapackage!" and puts it straight back next ``zypper dup''. This is _infuriating_. I found I had to mark packages as ``taboo'' to prevent it. This year's example: I can't get the nVidia drivers in the repos to work. They leave me with no X at all. (On both Tumbleweed and Leap 15.) I have only got my card to work with NVidia drivers downloaded from their website. Just after new year, I got a kernel update. So Yast "helpfully" reinstalled nvidia-gfxG05-kmp-default and my graphics stopped working completely.

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The website tool thing at https://software.opensuse.org is a bit cumbersome and disorienting

That's true. A recent update destroyed its utility. This has been discussed on the list already.

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I don't understand the complain about "buggy", although they may be using a different desktop than I do.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally have experienced: * clean install, no graphics drivers working, just fallback VGA. Installing drivers manually didn't work. For some reason the firmware package wasn't installed but that took me _hours_ to find. * clean install, no networking -- didn't support an Ethernet adaptor that worked on Ubuntu, Fedora, and TrueOS in that particular round of testing Attempting to use a "one click install" failed because you can't download the "one click install" package on another machine and move it across. With no networking this was the only option I had. * on Tumbleweed regular instances where ``zypper dup'' warns me that it's going to "upgrade" packages to older versions. I think this is due to vendors and different repos, but since everyone sets everything to priority 99, that just seems to be life. * ``zypper dup'' easily gets into cycles where it can't install something because of dependency problems. * YaST doesn't let you select multiple items to uninstall, so you get a long, sometimes VERY long, cycle of uninstall package 1, get error, say do it anyway, do it, select package 2, repeat, select package 3, repeat... etc. Synaptic is, I am sorry to say, _considerably_ better for multipackage handling. In general I prefer APT; I moved _to_ Ubuntu _from_ SUSE Pro, with which I was far more familiar at the time, and although it took me some time to adapt, APT still feels far more mature to me. When I left the SUSE world, Zypper didn't exist yet.

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Didn't see the expert mode partitioner?

It's not obvious.

...

And of course, they write OpenSUSE, or SUSE, or Open Suse, or OpenSuse...

Well, the relationships are *not* clear, but rbrown shouted at me when I pointed this out. :-( -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

16:23

* Liam Proven [01-23-19 11:17]:

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On 1/23/19 2:13 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

...
Well, years ago this did not happen. YaST kept some kind of list of what was removed and respected it. The feature was removed and has not come back.

Still happens. Has happened to me in the last 12 months.

Actually, no, scratch that, has happened to me _this year_.

Examples:

* I hate the "client-side decoration" of modern GNOME 3 apps. Tumbleweed with Xfce includes several: Evince, for example.

I remove them and replace them with Mint XApps, such as in this case XReader, which has a proper title bar, menu bar and toolbar.

Tumbleweed sees this, goes "oi! That's part of the metapackage!" and puts it straight back next ``zypper dup''.

This is _infuriating_.

I found I had to mark packages as ``taboo'' to prevent it.

you should learn to use zypper. judicious use of locks and recommends/no-recommends -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Liam Proven

16:27

On 1/23/19 5:23 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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you should learn to use zypper. judicious use of locks and recommends/no-recommends

I am a little surprised by such an answer. A user complains about openSUSE behaviour, I merely say that I've seen it, and *I* am in the wrong? This is not Windows. It is Linux. It's my box; I'm the boss. If I uninstall something, even if it is something necessary, it should get uninstalled and stay uninstalled. To behave otherwise is un-Unix-like, I submit. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

16:39

* Liam Proven [01-23-19 11:28]:

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On 1/23/19 5:23 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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you should learn to use zypper. judicious use of locks and recommends/no-recommends

I am a little surprised by such an answer.

A user complains about openSUSE behaviour, I merely say that I've seen it, and *I* am in the wrong?

This is not Windows. It is Linux. It's my box; I'm the boss. If I uninstall something, even if it is something necessary, it should get uninstalled and stay uninstalled.

To behave otherwise is un-Unix-like, I submit.

your surprise is noted and understood. but nowhere were you called or declared as being in the wrong. your delicacy is showing that you become upset at the suggestion of a different approach. yast uses zypper for the actions you note. and indeed it is linux, windows was never mentioned. but your lack of understanding greatly contributes to your supprise. that an action can have unexpected consequence just shows your lack of understanding. please excuse me while I get my fire-retardent clothing. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

16:49

Liam Proven composed on 2019-01-23 17:27 (UTC+0100):

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Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

...
you should learn to use zypper. judicious use of locks and recommends/no-recommends

...

I am a little surprised by such an answer.

...

A user complains about openSUSE behaviour, I merely say that I've seen it, and *I* am in the wrong?

...

This is not Windows. It is Linux. It's my box; I'm the boss. If I uninstall something, even if it is something necessary, it should get uninstalled and stay uninstalled.

...

To behave otherwise is un-Unix-like, I submit.

To disable recommends in /etc/zypp/zyp*conf should take care of this scenario: zypp.conf: solver.onlyRequires = true zypper.conf: installRecommends = false -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Liam Proven

16:58

On 1/23/19 5:39 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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your surprise is noted and understood. but nowhere were you called or declared as being in the wrong. your delicacy is showing that you become upset at the suggestion of a different approach.

Upset, no. Surprised, yes. If I uninstall something, I expect it to stay uninstalled. No additional configuration should be necessary.

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yast uses zypper for the actions you note.

Where did YaST come into it? As I said, it was ``zypper dup'' that replaced the packages.

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and indeed it is linux, windows was never mentioned.

I think you are not following what I am saying. Allow me to illustrate with a picture: https://i.imgur.com/Iu0soAq.jpg

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but your lack of understanding greatly contributes to your supprise. that an action can have unexpected consequence just shows your lack of understanding.

please excuse me while I get my fire-retardent clothing.

I am not denying that I no longer understand *SUSE as well as I have come to understand *buntu, since I used *SUSE for 3-4y before I switched to *buntu, which I have now been using for 15 years. In contrast, I've been using Windows for 31 years. (*Cries softly*) I understand it rather better, which is why I don't use it any more. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Liam Proven

16:59

On 1/23/19 5:49 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

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To disable recommends in /etc/zypp/zyp*conf should take care of this scenario:

zypp.conf: solver.onlyRequires = true zypper.conf: installRecommends = false

Why or how is "recommends" relevant to this? I broadly understand how package recommendations work on the Debian family. Is the SUSE family totally different? -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

17:07

* Liam Proven [01-23-19 12:00]:

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On 1/23/19 5:49 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

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To disable recommends in /etc/zypp/zyp*conf should take care of this scenario:

zypp.conf: solver.onlyRequires = true zypper.conf: installRecommends = false

Why or how is "recommends" relevant to this?

re-read your post complaining about removed packages being reinstalled.

...

I broadly understand how package recommendations work on the Debian family. Is the SUSE family totally different?

-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

17:11

Liam Proven composed on 2019-01-23 17:59 (UTC+0100):

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Felix Miata wrote:

...

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To disable recommends in /etc/zypp/zyp*conf should take care of this scenario:

zypp.conf: solver.onlyRequires = true zypper.conf: installRecommends = false

...

Why or how is "recommends" relevant to this?

Affects functional dependencies and patterns interplay apparently.

...

I broadly understand how package recommendations work on the Debian family. Is the SUSE family totally different?

Can't say, since I have yet to get a handle on how recommends and locking work on Debian. Since I don't use YaST for software much, solver.onlyRequires = true is enough for me. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Liam Proven

17:29

On 1/23/19 6:07 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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re-read your post complaining about removed packages being reinstalled.

I do not know if you are familiar with the "Scarfolk" parody UK government materials, but you remind me of their line "For more information, please re-read." This is a depressingly similar sort of response, unfortunately. Someone from $DISTRO_A says that they do not like $DISTRO_B because it does $THING_X. Some fans of $DISTRO_B say it does not do that. Someone who uses both $DISTRO_A *and* $DISTRO_B says "Yes it does, and here is how to reproduce it." The $DISTRO_B fans now say "oh, yes, that, it's working as intended. Just get used to it, it's how we do it." It's a very common attitude in the Unix world. It's certainly been like that since I first got to build a Unix box, in 1988. As a general rule, I personally prefer Unixes whose creators' attitude is "oh, that is not what you want? OK, if there's no harm in it, we will change it so that it does what you would expect or prefer." Mac OS X is like this. No, you don't get a lot of customization. Macs aren't like that. They are not machines for tinkerers. Ubuntu is like this. It developers freely borrow ideas and tools from other distros and try to keep it be easy, beginner-friendly, and simple. Even if this causes old Debian hands to howl in distress. Even if it causes fans of other distros to hate it. This is, I think, why it fairly quickly became the most popular desktop distro, despite being one of the newest. As a server, I am not so sure, and for that, now that I am back in the SUSE fold, I would probably recommend Leap. But happily I do not build or maintain servers for a living any more. I just describe how the software works. If I am called upon to document how Zypper works, I will gladly learn this. Right now I am on other things. Anyway. I am not here to say that Zypper does anything wrong, or criticize how it works, or complain about it. I am merely saying that I have seen what that poster on LinuxQuestions complained about. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown

17:53

On Wed, 23 Jan 2019 at 18:29, Liam Proven wrote:

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Anyway. I am not here to say that Zypper does anything wrong, or criticize how it works, or complain about it. I am merely saying that I have seen what that poster on LinuxQuestions complained about.

Good, nice to know, but I'm not entirely sure what relevance your observation (or in fact the vast majority of this thread) has to discussions about the openSUSE Project It is wrong to encourage the project to pile on to LQ, so this premise of this thread is unwelcome. People complaining about things wrong with our distributions should be encouraged to file bugs in our bugzilla, or submit requests to our packages. Debating the merit of any such points here is absolutely unwelcome. This is a non-technical mailinglist. Because this is where governance and project-wide issues are meant to be discussed, I read every post on this list religiously. Anyone who continues to post on this thread is likely to find my copy of their mails to any openSUSE list autodeleted in the future. This will prevent anything they ever write from being read by me; This may or may not be a good thing from their perspective..but from mine I expect it will be rather calming and allow me to focus my energies on the needs of those who use our mailing-lists appropriately. Regards, Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Knurpht-openSUSE

22:08

Op woensdag 23 januari 2019 13:17:49 CET schreef Felix Miata:

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https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-newbie-8/is-suse-linux-the-be st-ever-4175646758/ Why? What's next? Follow all posts on Reddit, Discord, *pora ? TW needs no defence, it needs bugreports, package addition requests, testing stuff. And me too thinks this does not belong on this list. I therefor skipped the other replies after seeing a non-project discussion develop.

-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Christian Boltz

23:52

Hello, Am Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2019, 18:07:50 CET schrieb Patrick Shanahan:

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* Liam Proven [01-23-19 12:00]:

...
On 1/23/19 5:49 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

...
To disable recommends in /etc/zypp/zyp*conf should take care of this scenario: zypp.conf: solver.onlyRequires = true zypper.conf: installRecommends = false

Why or how is "recommends" relevant to this?

re-read your post complaining about removed packages being reinstalled.

This answer is 100% correct, and also completely useless for people who are not too familiar with what "Recommends" do. Actually it reminds me to an old joke about Microsoft and a helicopter - if you don't know it, check https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/microsoft-helicopter-joke.3245996/ ;-) On a more serious (and technical [1]) note: "Recommends" is the soft version of "Requires" - a recommended package gets installed by default. You can uninstall recommended packages, but they'll get reinstalled as long as one of your still installed packages or patterns recommends them. To avoid this, use the config options mentioned by Felix (the one in zypp.conf should be enough), and recommended packages will no longer be installed. However, let me warn you that doing that on your desktop machine or laptop will give you more than one "why is this missing?" or even "why doesn't this part of $application work?" moments. I tried this a few months ago, and quickly re-enabled installing recommended packages. OTOH, on servers I use onlyRequires by default. That all said - I completely agree that it would be a good idea for zypper to remember which packages you uninstalled manually, and to keep them uninstalled even if they are recommended (ideally with a message in the summary saying "not installing the following recommended packages which were previously uninstalled"). Liam, I'm quite sure you know how to use bugzilla [2] - can you please submit this as a bugreport [3] (ideally after searching if there's a similar bugreport already)? ;-) Regards, Christian Boltz [1] sorry Richard ;-) [2] Just in case you don't - I'll happily get you started if you promise to document whatever you learned ;-) [3] I'll leave it to you if you call it a bug (severity "normal") or a feature request (severity "enhancement") - both ways are valid, depending on how you write the description ;-) -- Wir waren vor einiger Zeit schonmal "soweit fertig". Dann kam Gerald, fand 1000 Sachen Scheisse, hat 500 Sachen nicht begriffen und 250 falsch gemacht. :-)))))) [Ratti in fontlinge-devel] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

24 Jan 24 Jan

01:59

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2019-01-23 a las 17:27 +0100, Liam Proven escribió:

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On 1/23/19 5:23 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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you should learn to use zypper. judicious use of locks and recommends/no-recommends

I am a little surprised by such an answer.

A user complains about openSUSE behaviour, I merely say that I've seen it, and *I* am in the wrong?

This is not Windows. It is Linux. It's my box; I'm the boss. If I uninstall something, even if it is something necessary, it should get uninstalled and stay uninstalled.

To behave otherwise is un-Unix-like, I submit.

LOL! I was going to say that, but I went instead to climb a mountain. I didn't get far, I aborted, and went to see a movie instead. Something about a Glass or something :-) Yes, I was going to say exactly that, that this mis-feature makes openSUSE behaviour similar to Windows in the eyes of people. If I uninstall something, I want it out; that the system reinstalls it is intolerable. But hey, I'm a convinced openSUSE user, so I find a workaround: taboo what I remove, and don't complain too much ;-) - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE Leap 15.0 x86_64 (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iJIEAREIADoWIQQt/vKEw5659AgM/X2NrxRtxRYzXAUCXEkb8xwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJEI2vFG3FFjNcgNgA/iwtW80DA2/+d+piJnBW ubisaPD0PbBlQPN8vEwVKoxTAPwKbfqCLyiA++UuWkagFaPC+S5VemrG6H4wTxNE RABqrA== =Nyl7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Carlos E. R.

02:14

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2019-01-23 a las 23:08 +0100, Knurpht-openSUSE escribió:

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Op woensdag 23 januari 2019 13:17:49 CET schreef Felix Miata:

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https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-newbie-8/is-suse-linux-the-be st-ever-4175646758/ Why? What's next? Follow all posts on Reddit, Discord, *pora ? TW needs no defence, it needs bugreports, package addition requests, testing stuff. And me too thinks this does not belong on this list. I therefor skipped the other replies after seeing a non-project discussion develop.

I don't know where the thread belongs, and I doubt I'll join that forum to answer. But I believe the project should listen to what the people that are not already openSUSE users say about why they dislike or hate openSUSE. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE Leap 15.0 x86_64 (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iJIEAREIADoWIQQt/vKEw5659AgM/X2NrxRtxRYzXAUCXEkfhhwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJEI2vFG3FFjNcS1EA/1A8TpfabQ5c73xaaxOP 9O0tf5ua4voj3nBlAhBygEuNAP9C8Xarg0yhPprtZZaq8pRrkBRl1iS4OnEWxjHk xoA5lQ== =cYuK -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Liam Proven

10:52

On 1/24/19 12:52 AM, Christian Boltz wrote:

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This answer is 100% correct, and also completely useless for people who are not too familiar with what "Recommends" do. Actually it reminds me to an old joke about Microsoft and a helicopter - if you don't know it, check https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/microsoft-helicopter-joke.3245996/ ;-)

:-D

...

On a more serious (and technical [1]) note: "Recommends" is the soft version of "Requires" - a recommended package gets installed by default.

That's perfectly fine and makes sense.

...

You can uninstall recommended packages, but they'll get reinstalled as long as one of your still installed packages or patterns recommends them.

That's not what I would expect at all.

...

To avoid this, use the config options mentioned by Felix (the one in zypp.conf should be enough), and recommended packages will no longer be installed.

However, let me warn you that doing that on your desktop machine or laptop will give you more than one "why is this missing?" or even "why doesn't this part of $application work?" moments. I tried this a few months ago, and quickly re-enabled installing recommended packages. OTOH, on servers I use onlyRequires by default.

That's the problem I anticipated. I suspect that I probably want the additions that the package maintainers recommended, and therefore turning recommendations _off_ is _not_ a helpful suggestion.

...

That all said - I completely agree that it would be a good idea for zypper to remember which packages you uninstalled manually, and to keep them uninstalled even if they are recommended (ideally with a message in the summary saying "not installing the following recommended packages which were previously uninstalled").

Quite so.

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Liam, I'm quite sure you know how to use bugzilla [2] - can you please submit this as a bugreport [3] (ideally after searching if there's a similar bugreport already)? ;-)

Hmmm. I can certainly do that, although it is not something that I personally would consider to be a "bug". The system is taking actions to undo changes I have made. Presumably someone somewhere thought that this was desirable behavior. Thank you for the helpful comments. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org